Support NeoGAF

[Media]

In light of the 20th anniversary, there has been some great articles and I felt this deserves a thread.


http://www.vanityfair.com/hollywood/2017/03/buffy-season-6-anniversary-warren-jonathan-andrew

Buffy Season 6 is often maligned as the worst of the series—but with its prescient geek-gone-bad villains, the show had its finger on the pulse of something huge.

When I was trying to figure out how to celebrate the anniversary of the most personally important show in my life, I thought I should go big or go home. But as I approached my self-imposed assignment of ranking every single Buffy villain ever, I made a surprising discovery. The No. 1 slot didn’t really belong to either of Buffy’s boyfriends—Angelus or Spike—or even to my personal first-watch favorite, the Mayor. Looking back down the decades, it’s the unlikely trio of angry frustrated nerds—Jonathan, Andrew, and Warren—who still loom the largest.

...But even those who insist on not giving Whedon full marks for feminism can’t deny him credit for being well ahead of his time when it came to the frustrated, angry young men of the social-media age. And it’s that examination of both the Trio and their impact on the women warriors of Buffy the Vampire Slayer that make Season 6 shine, even its darkest moments.

Taunting Warren with visions of Katrina—the girl he killed after she accuses him of rape—Willow gets right to the heart of the matter near the end of the season:

Katrina: How could you say you loved me, and do that to me?
Warren: [Suddenly] Because you deserved it, bitch! [finally turns to look, but Katrina is gone]
Willow: Because you liked it.
Warren: Oh, shut up!
Willow: You never felt you had the power with her, not until you killed her.
Warren: [Nasty laugh] Women. You know, you're just like the rest of them. Mind games.
Willow: You get off on it. That's why you had a mad-on for the Slayer. She was your big O, wasn't she, Warren?
Warren: [Still trembling] Are you done yet? Or can we talk some more about our feelings?

I seriously didn't think of this until I read the article, but Warren is a condensed version of gamer gate and Joss can see the future. In a time where most geeks were lovable and just dorky (poor Andrew, also the type of 'brainwashed following the crowd' gamergater, and Johnathon who just wanted some friends until it got too real) he made three fantastic villains of Andrew, Warren and Johnathon.

So many quotes, but read the whole thing.

Thoughts? More at link.

 

[BlastProcessing]

It's a solid point. I think a lot of people truly hated Warren when they saw him on screen, I know I did. That's actually pretty novel for Buffy villains and so I think the whole thing might have been a little too real for the show in some ways.

Normally Buffy villains are campy and kind of fun. In the conflict between Buffy and a theme would play out, but with Warren, he was the theme himself. That lack of abstraction was different for the show.

 

[truly101]

Season 6 seemed the worst because it was directionless for most of it. Also Jonathan not Andrew should have been the carryover character for season 7 since he was there since season 1. There are certainly some parallels to the 3 villains with the gamergate stereotype but I don't think its anything more than that. Those stereotypes existed long before Buffy

 

[Holy Order Sol]

Before these guys showed up Xander was the guy you'd have expected to make angry girl threads on the Internet if the show had been set in modern days.

 

[Media]

Season 6 seemed the worst because it was directionless for most of it. Also Jonathan not Andrew should have been the carryover character for season 7 since he was there since season 1. There are certainly some parallels to the 3 villains with the gamergate stereotype but I don't think its anything more than that. Those stereotypes existed long before Buffy

I saw season six as an poorly made allegory to 'Humans can be monsters too.'. Buffy was the abusive boyfriend (until Seeing Red), Xander left Anya at the alter, Willow was The big Bad, and Warren was fucking terrifying

They could have done it better but it still mostly worked and I still enjoy the season.

 

[Grizzlyjin]

I thought this was going to be about Season 4...

 

[rainking187]

I thought this was going to be about Season 4...

Yep, when I think of the worst season of Buffy that's the one that immediately comes to mind.

 

[Media]

I thought this was going to be about Season 4...

A lot of people hate four but I don't see how it could be considered 'important'.
I enjoyed season 6 actually, it was raw and real.

 

[the_sun_king]

Yeah, Warren is a creep because he's a complete misogynist. He got what he deserved.

Also season 4 has a lot of the strongest stand alone episodes of any season, despite its overarching arc being weaker.

 

[NinjaCoachZ]

I thought this was going to be about Season 4...

I like Season 6 specifically because it's so polarizing. Some people hate it for the reasons other people think it's poignant. It's definitely where the show gets its "realest" with how it examines the human condition. Of course it definitely fumbles in some areas, but at the end of the day, it tried to do something and I can't knock ambition.

That's more than anyone can say for season 4. The individual episodes are fun, but man does the actual arc never go anywhere.

Season 7 is kind of iffy too. The finale was good and it has some great individual episodes but the middle of it when they start introducing the potential slayers and cram them all into the house is such a blur.

 

[truly101]

I thought this was going to be about Season 4...

Riley sucked but Season 4 was essentially Resident Evil, The TV Show. I thought it was okay but 5 and 6 were my least favorite.

 

[Vlad]

I thought this was going to be about Season 4...

I was thinking season seven, myself.

 

[Slime]

I was reminded of Warren the second that GG shit started.

I thought this was going to be about Season 4...

4 and 7 are the worst, to me. I didn't love 6 either, but I'd rather watch that than trudge through the Riley/Initiative/Adam arc again, or wallow in 7's anticlimactic misery.

 

[Media]

I was thinking season seven, myself.

No one's reading the article

It's not about personal taste, season six was widely regarded as the most depressing season. There wasn't many 'fun' episodes. I mean the only one I can think of is tabula rasa. Once more with feeling might count but even that had very depressing themes.

I mean fucking Dead Things alone...

Edit: Why the fuck can't I find a gif or video of the alley way beat down?

 

[the_sun_king]

NIt's not about personal taste, season six was widely regarded as the most depressing season. There wasn't many 'fun' episodes. I mean the only one I can think of is tabula rasa. Once more with feeling might count but even that had very depressing themes.

Well, season 6 is about depression. It's why I don't like it much myself; also, I thought the show went dark enough in the previous season. The season finale, Grave, almost makes it all worthwhile, though.

 

[stuminus3]

Yeah this is a bit of revisionist history. Joss Whedon didn't see the future at all. Nerds looking for revenge on society is the oldest trope in the book. What you know now as "Gamergate" has always existed. You could even argue the show in itself largely existed in response to them in the first place.

 

[TheVampire]

I liked Season 6

The big bad was "life"

Buffy being super depressed about being ripped out of heaven by her friends thinking she was in hell, dropping out of college and having to work some shitty part time job since they had no money, Giles left for England and abandoned them, Willow getting addicted to magic, Xander screwing up his relationship with Anya, Spikes conflict with not being able to be a monster but not being able to be a man either since he didn't have soul (yet) etc....

 

[Zocano]

It's not about personal taste, season six was widely regarded as the most depressing season. There wasn't many 'fun' episodes. I mean the only one I can think of is tabula rasa. Once more with feeling might count but even that had very depressing themes.

That explains why season 6 is my favorite season.

I'm consistently surprised when people malign it since it was the one that got me really to adore the show rather than just like it.

 

[xaosslug]

whatever season had the underground army base stuff and zombie-terminator as big bad throughout was the worst, imo.

 

[Media]

Yeah this is a bit of revisionist history. Joss Whedon didn't see the future at all. Nerds looking for revenge on society is the oldest trope in the book. What you know now as "Gamergate" has always existed. You could even argue the show in itself largely existed in response to them in the first place.

Yeah it's a trope but it was always done in a cutesy 'look they get the girl in the end!' way. Warren was evil to the fucking core.

 

[Grizzlyjin]

No one's reading the article

It's not about personal taste, season six was widely regarded as the most depressing season. There wasn't many 'fun' episodes. I mean the only one I can think of is tabula rasa. Once more with feeling might count but even that had very depressing themes.

I just finished it. I'm essentially always in the midst of a Buffy or Angel rewatch and I noticed some of the same things about a year or two ago. The frustrated masculinity angle is sooooo ahead of its time, no doubt about that. Season 6 came up in mind another time recently when a character on The 100 died.

Buffy and The Americans are two programs that became shockingly modern in the past year. To a scary degree.

 

[Jarmel]

I thought this was going to be about Season 4...

That's what I thought this was going to be about too. Season 4 was without a doubt the low point.

 

[Replicant]

It's also the season where Spike tried to rape Buffy because he feels entitled to her. The season did explore a lot of uncomfortable territory, male ego and entitlement was one of them.

Couldn't believe how many women/his fans defended his actions back then by saying she lead him on, etc. Truly one of the darker side of fandom I knew back then.

 

[Media]

I guess I should have it how season 6 became the most important season. Maybe a mod can change it for me

 

[Media]

It's also the season where Spike tried to rape Buffy because he feels entitled to her. The season did explore a lot of uncomfortable territory, male ego and entitlement was one of them.

The AR scene was so fucking uncomfortable to me. Because I fucking hate male entitlement and rape and yet I can understand where Spike was coming from. After an entire season of abuse from Buffy that was the only way he knew to connect to her. Without a soul it's completely understandable that he would think that that would be the way they could get back together. Once he realized that what he did was wrong which is amazing considering he didn't have a soul he went and got one so it would never happen again.

Edit: as to your edit I never defended him for he did. It was awful wrong and disgusting exactly as a soulless monster would react. The fact that he realized it and went and sought his soul was the amazing part. And a lot of us understood his motivations during the attack because of the abusive relationship.

 

[NinjaCoachZ]

No one's reading the article

It's not about personal taste, season six was widely regarded as the most depressing season. There wasn't many 'fun' episodes. I mean the only one I can think of is tabula rasa. Once more with feeling might count but even that had very depressing themes.

Ah, I read it.

I want to say, it's interesting to see another article bring this up because Adam Busch himself actually said something very similar in his interview with the AV Club recently. I definitely remember, I always thought Warren was the creepiest Buffy villain specifically because he was just an ordinary dude who happened to go down the wrong path and ended up with so much hatred inside him.

It's also the season where Spike tried to rape Buffy because he feels entitled to her. The season did explore a lot of uncomfortable territory, male ego and entitlement was one of them.

Couldn't believe how many women/his fans defended his actions back then by saying she lead him on, etc. Truly one of the darker side of fandom I knew back then.

Yeah, Spuffy just doesn't sit well with me. Spike is an entertaining character but they seemed pretty explicit in showing just how destructive a relationship it was.

whatever season had the underground army base stuff and zombie-terminator as big bad throughout was the worst, imo.

That was season 4.

 

[Grizzlyjin]

It's also the season where Spike tried to rape Buffy because he feels entitled to her. The season did explore a lot of uncomfortable territory, male ego and entitlement was one of them.

Even though this is more Season 5, I lump Buffybot in there too since the big connection between Warren and Spike is a sex toy that looks like Buffy. Says so much about Warren (and Spike too) that they wanted to control women like that.

 

[jb1234]

I can see the argument being made there. I don't particularly like season 6 but I respect it because at least it tried. It went for broke and whether it worked for you or not seems mostly up to personal taste.

(Season 7 on the other hand was on autopilot. Worst season of the show for me.)

 

[Goodstyle]

You can hate on S6 if you want, but holy shit, you are fucking nuts if you think it was worse than the atrocity that was the 7th season. After the first third it went to absolute shit.

 

[the_sun_king]

You can hate on S6 if you want, but holy shit, you are fucking nuts if you think it was worse than the atrocity that was the 7th season. After the first third it went to absolute shit.

The series finale lets me forgive season 7's middling...uh, middle.

(And the worst season is season 1.)

 

[Media]

You can hate on S6 if you want, but holy shit, you are fucking nuts if you think it was worse than the atrocity that was the 7th season. After the first third it went to absolute shit.

It had beneath you, Him, Selfless, Conversations with Dead People, Storyteller (omg) and Lies My Parents Told Me. That redeems it for me.

(If you can't tell I love storyteller)

Also, seriously, Him:

Willows confusion omg
"His physical presence has a penis!"
"I can work around it!"
Also, this:


https://youtu.be/_xKO8XNScWo

A
Edit: forgot a beneath you gif

 

[Goodstyle]

The series finale lets me forgive season 7's middling...uh, middle.

(And the worst season is season 1.)

Eh, technically. It feels almost unfair to pick on S1 though. Show was still finding itself.

Spoiler

Also I was meh on the finale, but I know I'm in the minority on that.

It had beneath you, Him, Selfless, Conversations with Dead People, Storyteller (omg) and Lies My Parents Told Me. That redeems it for me.

Oh ya, that first 3rd was legitimately fantastic, and Lies My Parents told Me was great... it's just that the middle KILLED me. I was bored out of my fucking mind, and even during the worst episodes of the show before, that never happened to me with Buffy. It was so jarring.

 

[PK Gaming]

Not to derail the thread since it touches on an important subject, but the fact that season 6 is widely considered the worst makes me physically upset

 

[jb1234]

Lately, it seems like all the 90s shows I've been rewatching have been terrifyingly prescient. Buffy of course but I also just finished up DS9 and was astonished at just how the show aired before 9-11 (and the reign of Trump).

 

[Zocano]

I didn't hate Season 7 like most people seemed to. It just felt like a big denouement to the show. Anya, tho ):

Season 4 is the only one I actively loathe.

edit:

I'm always weirded out by people trying to recontextualize previous works to say how they reflect a current trends? At least works that are relatively recent. I get the same feeling I get from the people that repost that MGS2 context quote and it makes me feel ick. Dunno what it is about it though that irks me.

 

[NinjaCoachZ]

It had beneath you, Him, Selfless, Conversations with Dead People, Storyteller (omg) and Lies My Parents Told Me. That redeems it for me.

The bolded episodes are legitimately GOAT episodes of the show.

It just sucks that the middle of it runs together so much.

Also fuck Kennedy.

Not to derail the thread since it touches on an important subject, but the fact that season 6 is widely considered the worst makes me physically upset

I think season 1 is generally considered the worst but really, it's such a cheap target at the end of the day. It usually comes down to 6, 7, or 4 and it just depends on what your standard for "worst" is.

4 has great individual episodes but handily the worst arc, and Riley.

7 is really rushed and overwhelming with just how much they had to cram into it, plus it still has some of the baggage from prior seasons to deal with, but the conclusion is satisfactory enough.

6 is just mixed since it's so risky. When it hits, it hits hard, but it has some big-time misses. It has the series's highest highs (Once More With Feeling, Tabula Rasa...) and the lowest lows (Hell's Bells, Doublemeat Palace, As You Were...). Plus the overall tone is just so depressing and bleak that a bunch of the episodes are just plain uncomfortable to watch. I give it credit over 4 and 7 though, because like I said, at least they tried.

If I had to pick one to call the worst it'd be 4 because geez does its arc suck.

 

[Media]

I agree that Kennedy and Riley nearly ruined their seasons. Him coming back in six made me fucking gag. Gary Stu indeed.

 

[pretty done]

The best part of the season was Willow skinning that dweeb

 

[Media]

The best part of the season was Willow skinning that dweeb

Too quick a death imo.

 

[jb1234]

I agree that Kennedy and Riley nearly ruined their seasons. Him coming back in six made me fucking gag. Gary Stu indeed.

I'm probably a little too forgiving of Riley because I think he's hot. Very boring but hot.

 

[Ralemont]

Do people just leave out season 1 from the rankings? Because that is so far below any other season on the show in terms of quality that I just assumed everyone agreed its the worst.

 

[Tinfoilhatsron]

Yeah it's a trope but it was always done in a cutesy 'look they get the girl in the end!' way. Warren was evil to the fucking core.

Really? I think you're confusing socially awkward but "loveable" nerd who is the ""comedy"" with evil nerd who hates women because he can't get laid. Only the first one ever gets the girl. Even if he creeps on her. Bleh.

Haven't watched Buffy so I can't comment on the character. Just the general trends I see.

Edit: Need to put comedy in double quotes.

 

[Media]

I'm probably a little too forgiving of Riley because I think he's hot. Very boring but hot.

https://youtu.be/J4biN158t5I

 

[Rhaknar]

Season 6 is actually my favorite season if only for "Bored now..."

Dark Willow = Best Willow :3

 

[Shaanyboi]

Season 6 had enough interesting shit that I wouldn't call it the worst. But yeah... Warren was one-point as a near-perfect representation of modern-day misogyny.

 

[Media]

Really? I think you're confusing socially awkward but "loveable" nerd who is the comedy with evil nerd who hates women because he can't get laid. Only the first one ever gets the girl. Even if he creeps on her. Bleh.

Haven't watched Buffy so I can't comment on the character. Just the general trends I see.

Well, Warren's hatred of women was so profound he wanted to make thr most powerful one in the world his sex slave. Tested it on a ex girlfriend, raped her, killed her, killed another woman, and was just...fucking evil. The 'Super villain vs super hero' nerd types don't touch that kind of a misogyny

 

[Media]

Season 6 is actually my favorite season if only for "Bored now..."

Dark Willow = Best Willow :3

Giles: "I'd like the test that theory." had me cheering too.

 

[kunonabi]

Season 6 could never be the worst season when seasons 4 and 7 exist. I actually really loved Season 6 personally.

 

[jb1234]

https://youtu.be/J4biN158t5I

Hey now.

 

[Media]

Hey now.

I honestly was just looking for Spike calling Riley captain cardboard but it worked on many levels