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How can 343i make Prometheans a compelling enemy?
- Thread starter NippleViking
- Start date
You seem to be an endless well of poor taste.
Unfriendly TimeTraveler
Member
I swear we have had this thread before.
In terms of what the do with them they do have the possibility to completely redesign them after 5.
Kind of liked them better when they were more animalistic nature like they had in 4. Get rid of the solider type class or vastly change them to be interesting. Fuck flying type enemies. Possibly add new vehicles for them.
Also start going more into the concept of how they are created that could make them more unique.
In terms of what the do with them they do have the possibility to completely redesign them after 5.
Kind of liked them better when they were more animalistic nature like they had in 4. Get rid of the solider type class or vastly change them to be interesting. Fuck flying type enemies. Possibly add new vehicles for them.
Also start going more into the concept of how they are created that could make them more unique.
Saucycarpdog
Member
Get rid of them and insert Bungie's version of a Forerunner soldier.
nekkid
It doesn't matter who we are, what matters is our plan.
Well I'm surprised this thread remained as constructive as it did for so long.
Get rid of them and insert Bungie's version of a Forerunner soldier.
The Prometheans aren't Forerunners, though. There'd have to be a big shift in the story (an unwelcome one) for this to happen.
NippleViking
Banned
Don't see why they couldn't just implement the above Forerunner concept as a Promethean.
I don't really think it's out of place here, given the pervading sentiment of the thread seems to be that 343i needs to at least renovate their current PvE, alongside other systems which flow into it. I'm sure there are hundreds of thousands with the same opinion as Heatboost, and it's something 343i ought to consider. Though this thread is specifically about Prometheans (and encounter design), and should be focused on those relevant philosophies and choices. Narrative, multiplayer, art-style etc. are all another can of worms.
I don't really think it's out of place here, given the pervading sentiment of the thread seems to be that 343i needs to at least renovate their current PvE, alongside other systems which flow into it. I'm sure there are hundreds of thousands with the same opinion as Heatboost, and it's something 343i ought to consider. Though this thread is specifically about Prometheans (and encounter design), and should be focused on those relevant philosophies and choices. Narrative, multiplayer, art-style etc. are all another can of worms.
GuitarAtomik
Member
This was actually what I was going to suggest. Make them fun to dismantle piece by piece. Also make the soldiers teleport less (or at least shorter distances) and give them less health.
ElRenoRaven
Member
You know honestly I think Halo 5 was a step in the right direction to be honest. I went from hating them with a passion in 4 to actually enjoying my time combating them in 5 with the exception of the warden fights.
Almost agree. I liked the Knights a lot more in 5 than in 4 and welcomed the addition of the soldier class, BUT the soldiers aren't fun to fight IMO. It's been said before in this thread: the soldier is too much of a bullet sponge and/or there's no fun way to dispose of them (quickly or not). Say whatever you want, but having options like the "noob combo" is a good thing. It may run it's course over the years, but characteristic weak points >>>>>>> DPS from whatever weapon that's available in the sandbox. At least in my book.
Another issue that's been mentioned in this game: the Promethean's place in the narrative. But then again the narrative in 4 & 5 is all over the place imo and I long back for the times when I was saving mankind from alien space-ISIS. I appreciate the effort to bring more shades of grey to the narrative, but find the execution lacking. Also: Prometheans are composed humans? Shocking twist! Now continue to kill hundreds, thousands of them and don't mention it.
Jaguar Victory
Member
13/10
But really, I like the Knights. They're satisfying to kill.
This is an extreme position to take. So they can make a killer Halo 6 and you'll nope out? Just silly.
Jeff Freecss
Member
I think they need more variants or the behaviors of any types of Prometheans should be diversified.
1) They're not really robots
2) Have you heard of a game called "Horizon: Zero Dawn"?
Manp
Member
this man gets it
Yep. Strange that both of those games concluded that when you need a new enemy to throw into a series you're about to kick into gear again, just add robots to fight.
Which is the most boring shit in the world.
Dino robots, dude. Big difference. And blah blah blah they're alien robot thingies Forerunner crap whatever.
There used to be at least some diversity among them. There were a few different crawler types, some of which would crawl around on walls and snipe you. Now in Halo 5, crawlers just stick to the ground and shoot you like a normal grunt enemy. Talk about downgrade.
Twilight Gap
Member
retcon
they're inherently stupid
they're inherently stupid
ThoseDeafMutes
Member
Lore wise I found it odd that they weren't really any tougher to fight than the covenant, considering they were supposed to be late period forerunner ground forces. Gameplay wise as of 5 I don't think they're particularly bad, the suggestions itt to add better hit feedback might be all that's needed.
Gnome Scat
Member
I'm not a huge fan of the Promethean sandbox but 343i did do a lot better the second time around with them. I think they need to be less bullet-spongey and a bit more interesting; they're pretty bland on the surface level compared to the Covenant. The teleporting has got to go, though.
So much this.
So much this.
5's were a big improvement on 4 but yeah, 'robots' arnt as fun as living, breathing enemies.
There's no where near enough feedback when shooting them, sure weak spots open up but in the meantime you might as well be shooting a wall, the feedback is the same.
And their introduction was too convoluted, I bet most people think they're machines.
Also their aesthetic is all too similar. The guns are all silver with angles and pointy bits. Which also describes most of the enemies types. The vehicle is the same. Warzone added much needed colour and distinctions but I hope 6 is a clean slate.
There's no where near enough feedback when shooting them, sure weak spots open up but in the meantime you might as well be shooting a wall, the feedback is the same.
And their introduction was too convoluted, I bet most people think they're machines.
Also their aesthetic is all too similar. The guns are all silver with angles and pointy bits. Which also describes most of the enemies types. The vehicle is the same. Warzone added much needed colour and distinctions but I hope 6 is a clean slate.
LastChance2Frag
Neo Member
Improvements made from 4 - 5 will probably see similar improvements 5 - 6. But I think adding Brutes back in separate to the Covenant, improved Prometheans, possibly Flood variants of all 3, 343i should be introducing a new enemy for 6.
Gnome Scat
Member
Yeah, I think a greater level of interplay among Promethean AI and a higher integration of weak points would be the right step forward. The problem with 343i's current take on them as an enemy is they are too safely designed, and bland and boring as a result of that.
I like the idea that's put forward with this piece of concept art:
I think a Knight designed like this could be a bit more compelling to fight, with a weak point in front that it works to protect, with it's exterior acting more in line with how the current Knight works. Gameplay wise, it could shield itself and try to close in on you, and then utilize close range attacks with weapons/melee. However, when it goes close in for an attack, it must expose its front, giving you an opening to get some critical hits on it. Also, it would work well relative to the design of Spartan Abilities, since you could use thrusters to help avoid its closer attacks.
Another idea that I think 343i should integrate is non-human Promethean variants from composed Covenant soldiers. Don't know how much of a difference they'd make since Prometheans look and fight nothing like humans, but who knows? Maybe they could do something interesting with it.
TheGameshark
Member
Wouldn't mind them getting retconned the fuck out of the series as far as I'm concerned. I don't think there's really much they can do to make them compelling over night so to speak. They just need to move on from them after 6 and design a new enemy race that's compelling.
retcon
they're inherently stupid
Agreed, what were they thinking with these beetle back bastard's. Anything insect like is lazy imo just unappealing in every way
NippleViking
Banned
Many keen for the total removal or retcon of the prometheans in here. I'd be very surprised if 343i totally gutted them at this stage, but a reboot of them is definitely possible, if unlikely.
Lore aficionados may tell me otherwise, but I've always felt that
would be a good way to justify physiological and behavioural changes from a writer's perspective, or enable the discovery and introduction of more forerunner tech or promethean species. I'd be surprised if 343i didn't somehow use that - the 'Created' already seem to have immense production and design capabilities, which has been mentioned in external lore, and used directly to justify the 'Grunt Mech' in Warzone FF.
Knights still look goofy. Posting some of the other Promethean Concept Arts for Inspiration (many of which are disgusting):
Packmaster is amazing however:
Lore aficionados may tell me otherwise, but I've always felt that
Cortana and her network of AIs, now being in-control of the Prometheans
Knights still look goofy. Posting some of the other Promethean Concept Arts for Inspiration (many of which are disgusting):
Packmaster is amazing however:
Black Mantis
Member
Yes, this would help greatly. They were much better in H5, but still boring. I said it during the H4 days, but given that they're constructed from former humans, it would also be cool if some of that humanity could "bleed out" in their movement, speech, traits, etc. Like a glitch or something.
clarknova156
Member
Short answer : no.
They have proven they can't write a good story. Halo 5's story was utterly boring and pales greatly compared to 1-3.
They have proven they can't write a good story. Halo 5's story was utterly boring and pales greatly compared to 1-3.
Hesemonni
Banned
They'll just make us fight the Warden 6 times. Tried and proven formula.
samurai1226
Member
I posted a few lines in another topic that fit pretty good here:
What bothers me the most about the prometheans is that they lack of emotional connection. The covenant always felt like real squads. They shout commands, they comment what they do or see on the battlefield, curse you when you kill their teammates, they scream in anger or fear, they can become desperate once they are losing (like suicide grunts or elites running into melee). They even taunt you when you die.Â
With the prometheans, all of that is lost. Some have special abilities like teleporting or shielding teammates. But they never feel like they actually are fighting together or like their mechanics are actual reactions to things happening on the battlefield. The crawlers are doing their thing, watchers randomly hang around their knights, etc. They don't react to the encounter you play - and more importantly they don't transport their reaction to the player. Do they feel anger or fear when they lose? Do they would give their life to kill you with all they got? We don't know, because all we see is robots with skull-helmets that are doing robot sounds.
It's stuff like that which made Halos combat against the covenant so authentic and so much fun. You had a laugh with your friends about the encounters. You played the campaign over and over and you always found new cool ways how the enemies react on the battlefield - in terms of gameplay and chitchatting. And I'm not even talking about the IWHBYD skull.
What I want to say is, the covenant always felt like believable enemies with a motivation for what they do an the battlefield and I think that was a big part what made Halo so much fun. How should you feel connected to robot enemies that can just respawn in waves like that CGI-canonfodder-army you see nowadays in nearly every comic movie.
At this point in the franchise I would actually prefer just having covenants as the enemy in H6 than a third try to get the Prometheans right. Just bring back skirmisher, drones, etc and the variety of enemies will be fine.
What bothers me the most about the prometheans is that they lack of emotional connection. The covenant always felt like real squads. They shout commands, they comment what they do or see on the battlefield, curse you when you kill their teammates, they scream in anger or fear, they can become desperate once they are losing (like suicide grunts or elites running into melee). They even taunt you when you die.Â
With the prometheans, all of that is lost. Some have special abilities like teleporting or shielding teammates. But they never feel like they actually are fighting together or like their mechanics are actual reactions to things happening on the battlefield. The crawlers are doing their thing, watchers randomly hang around their knights, etc. They don't react to the encounter you play - and more importantly they don't transport their reaction to the player. Do they feel anger or fear when they lose? Do they would give their life to kill you with all they got? We don't know, because all we see is robots with skull-helmets that are doing robot sounds.
It's stuff like that which made Halos combat against the covenant so authentic and so much fun. You had a laugh with your friends about the encounters. You played the campaign over and over and you always found new cool ways how the enemies react on the battlefield - in terms of gameplay and chitchatting. And I'm not even talking about the IWHBYD skull.
What I want to say is, the covenant always felt like believable enemies with a motivation for what they do an the battlefield and I think that was a big part what made Halo so much fun. How should you feel connected to robot enemies that can just respawn in waves like that CGI-canonfodder-army you see nowadays in nearly every comic movie.
At this point in the franchise I would actually prefer just having covenants as the enemy in H6 than a third try to get the Prometheans right. Just bring back skirmisher, drones, etc and the variety of enemies will be fine.
miller.skippins
Banned
Get rid of them and insert Bungie's version of a Forerunner soldier.
eh...this is basically covenant elite in armour
miller.skippins
Banned
Caayn
Member
That's the problem with the Prometheans. They introduced an enemy that should be way above humanities level without first figuring out how to add them to the sandbox.
Sorry but no. Fighting the Flood was actually fun unlike fighting Prometheans.
Just remove them.
- even fighting the flood was ten times more fun
Their weapons are uninspired as fuck. If they must stay please give them NEW WEAPONS, not human ones with a different skin slapped on top.
- everything about them is boring, no appeal to know more about them
Covenant had interesting technology (funny sounding pink alien stuff instead of familiar metallic flying junk), you had desire to know more about their motives, how their structure and religion worked and why the human hate.
The Flood are also interesting in a organic grey goo kind of way. They overwhelm you with numbers and are a massive force that transforms the environment.
What information you get about Prometheans is conveyed in the most uninteresting way possible: monologue infodump or video at some point during the campaign. Build depth through the environment and their actions, not through some character dumping a wikipedia article on you.
Saucestin_Roast
Member
It might honestly never work with the Prometheans. I tried SO hard to like them. I really wanted to. But after Halo 5, I just have to admit that I don't and likely will never enjoy them. I just don't care enough about them. Let alone the fact that they suck to fight due to their annoying, erratic movement and complete bullet sponginess.
Rosvoja Torilla
Member
My overall opinion about Halo is that it's gone way overboard with the "ultrafuturistic techno design". Everything about it. The maps and menus and enemies and weapons have all been pushed to this direction. IMO they should take the design back to the H1's monolithic retro-ish looks. I get the current design is supposed to be cool, but it's not.
About Prometheans:
- Remove their snappy movement and sandpaper the looks
- Add color (I mean they're all grey with orange light, including their weapons)
- Scatter and pace (alternate) the encounters if possible
- remove the small flying Promethean enemy (dunno the name)
- remove all boss fights
- keep the enemy type count to a minimum
About Prometheans:
- Remove their snappy movement and sandpaper the looks
- Add color (I mean they're all grey with orange light, including their weapons)
- Scatter and pace (alternate) the encounters if possible
- remove the small flying Promethean enemy (dunno the name)
- remove all boss fights
- keep the enemy type count to a minimum
Colossal Moo
Member
The Prometheans kick ass. I like them much better than the flood and the brutes. The only thing I would like the Halo team to do is remove the Warden. The Warden is cheap and not fun to fight.
JimiNutz
Banned
Definitely make them gib.
Being able to remove limbs and have the AI adapt to that and change its attack behaviour would be really awesome.
They should also get more creative with the designs. There needs to be lots of different types of Promethean and they all need to look and behave differently. The advantage of fighting robot like enemies is that you can get really creative with the designs. I want as much enemy variety as you see in something like DOOM.
Being able to remove limbs and have the AI adapt to that and change its attack behaviour would be really awesome.
They should also get more creative with the designs. There needs to be lots of different types of Promethean and they all need to look and behave differently. The advantage of fighting robot like enemies is that you can get really creative with the designs. I want as much enemy variety as you see in something like DOOM.
Chip N Chance
Member
retcon
they're inherently stupid
That looks like a Bay Transformer.
metareferential
Member
By removing them.
Halo has three main kinds of enemies: elites (fast, agile, clever), brutes (strong, agressive and a bit dumb), flood (zombie/infesting), with all the (quite numerous) variations and additions made over time.
Hell, even Destiny roughly kept the same tripartition.
They need to improve on the core gameplay: big, open battles (which need open-ended levels, which Halo 4 and 5 almost completely lack), great AI (4 and 5 are a step back compared to 3, ODST and Reach), focus on the mix of ground and vehicular combat (Halo 3's The Storm, The Covenant, Tsawo Highway, etc. are still unmatched).
And get rid of the storytelling nonsense. Back to the roots, there's so much room to expand and improve.
Halo has three main kinds of enemies: elites (fast, agile, clever), brutes (strong, agressive and a bit dumb), flood (zombie/infesting), with all the (quite numerous) variations and additions made over time.
Hell, even Destiny roughly kept the same tripartition.
They need to improve on the core gameplay: big, open battles (which need open-ended levels, which Halo 4 and 5 almost completely lack), great AI (4 and 5 are a step back compared to 3, ODST and Reach), focus on the mix of ground and vehicular combat (Halo 3's The Storm, The Covenant, Tsawo Highway, etc. are still unmatched).
And get rid of the storytelling nonsense. Back to the roots, there's so much room to expand and improve.
psychotron
Member
I really dislike them. Covenant was much more enjoyable to fight, and to listen to their one liners.
TheThreadsThatBindUs
Member
Thanks OP, for making this thread. For me, Prometheans as the biggest problem with the current Halo games and contributed significantly to my lack of enjoyment of playing Halo 5 (played it on my pal's XB1).
What's wrong the Prometheans:
1. Aesthetic Design:
Whilst the floating component, "Rayman-esque" aesthetic may look cool in concept art, when modeled in-game the design appears dull, generic and generally uninteresting. Much of the issues with them as an FPS enemy, in terms of their gameplay design, stems from their overall aesthetic design as mostly non-humanoid, pseudo-robotic, floaty-component, semi-intangible entities... they lack a sense of physicality in the game which affords a strong sense of visual feedback for the player. More serious, however, is that their sterile and mostly robotic aesthetic simply doesn't fit the tone of the Halo universe; at least from the perspective of someone who has no exposure to the EU content and has only played the games.
2. Mechanical Design:
The biggest sins of the Prometheans as FPS, and specifically Halo FPS enemies, can be seen with their mechanical design; i.e. how their artistic concept translates into gameplay mechanics.
Too many of the Prometheans exist in a form that is essentially non-humanoid, and thus limits their capacity to offer compelling gameplay opportunity or a decent challenge to the player.
You have the "doggy-type" ones, which both look lame and barely offer more than an annoyance to the player.
You have the floating "drone-type" ones, which again are pretty worthless and not really fun to fight at all.
Then you have the more "humanoid" Prometheans, which you would expect to be as dynamic and agile as the Elites, Brutes and other Covenant enemy types... well... you'd be mistaken, as these "humanoid" Prometheans are probably some of the worst enemies to fight in any FPS. The humanoid types aren't agile, they barely move around and even when they do it's mostly via teleportation (which feels a little like cheating to the player), they aren't by any measure intelligent, and for a game series that historically prided itself on great enemy AI design, Halo 4 & 5's Prometheans really dropped the ball massively.
What they need to do to make the Prometheans a compelling enemy?
Well, the aesthetic design is mostly set in stone now, however, they can at least riff upon the visual themes presented in previous games to try to make the Prometheans more visually appealing and have a stronger sense of physicality in the game.
- Visual feedback - I like the idea of adopting a "Binary Domain"-type system of hit feedback, where mechanical parts fall off the enemy as your shots continually impact on the exterior of the enemy and do increasing damage.
Adding to this, blood effects for the more organic parts of the enemy as you shoot them, would help to further reinforce their sense of physicality in the game.
- Smoother more natural animations - I'm unsure of whether it was by intent or a failure to achieve their goals, but the current Prometheans animations just don't convey any sense of weight or physical presence within the game-world. The effect is such that the movements of the Prometheans appear jerky and un-lifelike. In future games, 323i should focus on making the Prometheans motion appear more fluid and natural, conveying a sense of weight and physicality through their motions and reactions to their environment.
- More humanoid designs - They really should get rid of the "doggy", "drone" and "walking T-Rex anime mecha" forms of the Prometheans and replace them with more humanoid forms which can be animated more naturally, as well as offer more compelling combat opportunities through greater physical agility and physical mobility around the battlefield (instead of just cheaply teleporting around). They need to move away from enemies which are no more than "teleporting mobile turrets", "flying turrets" and "dog-mounted turrets", and move towards designs that make the player feel more like they are facing an army of elite soldiers with similar combat ability and mobility of your spartan allies.
In Halo 5, the Spartans were presented as being more mobile and agile than they ever had been in a Halo game, and yet, most of the game has you facing enemies which are probably one of the least agile and mobile that a Halo game has ever seen. It's little wonder many player didn't enjoy fighting them. The developers gave you all this added ability, and they faced you off against hordes of dogs, toy-helicopters and teleporting, man-sized metal gears. They were poorly thought out from the start.
On the other hand, no enemy is worse than the flood. The shooter game enemy archetype of "little shitty things that run towards you and explode" are categorically the worst idea ever in the history of shooter games. I hated it as the flood in Halo and I hated it as those little exploding bastards in Gears of War. Please devs... can we let this archetype die already? It's lazy and it's not fun... so yeah, whilst the Prometheans were lame, NOTHING is worse than the flood. So I strongly disagree with the OP on that one.
What's wrong the Prometheans:
1. Aesthetic Design:
Whilst the floating component, "Rayman-esque" aesthetic may look cool in concept art, when modeled in-game the design appears dull, generic and generally uninteresting. Much of the issues with them as an FPS enemy, in terms of their gameplay design, stems from their overall aesthetic design as mostly non-humanoid, pseudo-robotic, floaty-component, semi-intangible entities... they lack a sense of physicality in the game which affords a strong sense of visual feedback for the player. More serious, however, is that their sterile and mostly robotic aesthetic simply doesn't fit the tone of the Halo universe; at least from the perspective of someone who has no exposure to the EU content and has only played the games.
2. Mechanical Design:
The biggest sins of the Prometheans as FPS, and specifically Halo FPS enemies, can be seen with their mechanical design; i.e. how their artistic concept translates into gameplay mechanics.
Too many of the Prometheans exist in a form that is essentially non-humanoid, and thus limits their capacity to offer compelling gameplay opportunity or a decent challenge to the player.
You have the "doggy-type" ones, which both look lame and barely offer more than an annoyance to the player.
You have the floating "drone-type" ones, which again are pretty worthless and not really fun to fight at all.
Then you have the more "humanoid" Prometheans, which you would expect to be as dynamic and agile as the Elites, Brutes and other Covenant enemy types... well... you'd be mistaken, as these "humanoid" Prometheans are probably some of the worst enemies to fight in any FPS. The humanoid types aren't agile, they barely move around and even when they do it's mostly via teleportation (which feels a little like cheating to the player), they aren't by any measure intelligent, and for a game series that historically prided itself on great enemy AI design, Halo 4 & 5's Prometheans really dropped the ball massively.
What they need to do to make the Prometheans a compelling enemy?
Well, the aesthetic design is mostly set in stone now, however, they can at least riff upon the visual themes presented in previous games to try to make the Prometheans more visually appealing and have a stronger sense of physicality in the game.
- Visual feedback - I like the idea of adopting a "Binary Domain"-type system of hit feedback, where mechanical parts fall off the enemy as your shots continually impact on the exterior of the enemy and do increasing damage.
Adding to this, blood effects for the more organic parts of the enemy as you shoot them, would help to further reinforce their sense of physicality in the game.
- Smoother more natural animations - I'm unsure of whether it was by intent or a failure to achieve their goals, but the current Prometheans animations just don't convey any sense of weight or physical presence within the game-world. The effect is such that the movements of the Prometheans appear jerky and un-lifelike. In future games, 323i should focus on making the Prometheans motion appear more fluid and natural, conveying a sense of weight and physicality through their motions and reactions to their environment.
- More humanoid designs - They really should get rid of the "doggy", "drone" and "walking T-Rex anime mecha" forms of the Prometheans and replace them with more humanoid forms which can be animated more naturally, as well as offer more compelling combat opportunities through greater physical agility and physical mobility around the battlefield (instead of just cheaply teleporting around). They need to move away from enemies which are no more than "teleporting mobile turrets", "flying turrets" and "dog-mounted turrets", and move towards designs that make the player feel more like they are facing an army of elite soldiers with similar combat ability and mobility of your spartan allies.
In Halo 5, the Spartans were presented as being more mobile and agile than they ever had been in a Halo game, and yet, most of the game has you facing enemies which are probably one of the least agile and mobile that a Halo game has ever seen. It's little wonder many player didn't enjoy fighting them. The developers gave you all this added ability, and they faced you off against hordes of dogs, toy-helicopters and teleporting, man-sized metal gears. They were poorly thought out from the start.
On the other hand, no enemy is worse than the flood. The shooter game enemy archetype of "little shitty things that run towards you and explode" are categorically the worst idea ever in the history of shooter games. I hated it as the flood in Halo and I hated it as those little exploding bastards in Gears of War. Please devs... can we let this archetype die already? It's lazy and it's not fun... so yeah, whilst the Prometheans were lame, NOTHING is worse than the flood. So I strongly disagree with the OP on that one.