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[Acorn]

I am a part of a discussion group here in TN called GodWhy? that have many in depth discussion on various subjects.

You and others are coming at me as if I come from a place of complete ignorance on the subject and got me all wrong. I *lived* in this world, not just observed and judged - almost getting on the path of becoming a pastor.

If it's a subject that you're interested in discussing without assuming I'm coming from a hostile place, then feel free to PM me about the subject further. We can start over with a better understanding.



This is how it was taught to me in many of the religious schools I attended as well. That is unique to Catholicism (and possibly other minority Protestant domination I'm unfamiliar with )

I apologise, I clearly misinterpreted you.

 

[kavanf1]

Reading this thread, it's clear that religious proponents can't agree among themselves what being religious is. The liberal perspective is that it's okay for everyone to be religious in their own way, which taken to its logical conclusion ultimately renders any specific religion meaningless (which I think is what Melkezadek has been driving at in some of his posts). The hardline perspective is that being religious means following a very specific doctrine and believing a very specific set of rules and ideas, the majority of which crumble pretty quickly in the face of challenge on ethical or scientific grounds.

In either case, getting bogged down in the semantics of religious debate seems a waste of time outside of self-indulgent navel-gazing. Having spent many years getting pretty stressed out about the religion I was raised in, I can genuinely say that it's a relief to be able to ignore all the tautology and circular reasoning inherent to these arguments by taking a step back and understanding that it's all complete nonsense, so discussing specific aspects of that nonsense is pointless. It's tremendously liberating and has made life much less complicated. Life is complex enough without imbuing it with unnecessary complexity.

 

[More_Badass]

I've had a priest explain it to me like this: God is full of infinite compassion. He isn't going to send you to an eternity of suffering for something trivial. People who are not Christian can make it into heaven, it's just not automatic. (This may not be canon, guy is pretty liberal).

Basically. When I was in Catholic school so many years ago, our teacher essentially said this. It's more about being a good caring person, than about being Christian versus non-Christian

Well of course it is because letting 3Billion + people go to hell for no reason wouldn't be a Christian mind set. But this and some of the questions like it are one of the many reasons to just be done with Religion once and for all.

• You have over 7 Billion people on the planet with various contradictory religions sometimes even with the same god. (Yet Christians must be the only right ones)
• We have millions of historical and daily accounts of atrocities being committed but not a single shred of evidence of a miracle or God doing good/Stopping the bad
• We know religion as it is today started way into man's time on the planet and way after people worshipping things like sun.
• The founding document for Christianity is wrought with problems. The creationism ideology has been proven incorrect

Now we have modern Christians who are ready to abandon everything we can disprove but still believe in a God ... because they want to. I mean sure that's cool and all you do you but don't pretend for a second like your spreading truth when promoting Christianity.

I think a lot of modern Chistians understand that founding document is a book of fables and lessons rather than some factual historical book.

And since when has faith and belief in anything - not just religion - had anything to do with scientific fact? It's something built on emotions and hopes and desires and such, so I always find it to odd to try to bring stuff like God doesn't exist because bad things happen as evidence to show religious people that their beliefs are foolish. One doesn't disprove the other

 

[Joe Shlabotnik]

Maybe it's just laissez-faire American Catholicism, but I didn't hear a lot about Hell in church growing up, and I went every week. TONS about how awesomely and infinitely forgiving God was, though.

 

[Princess Carl]

Maybe it's just laissez-faire American Catholicism, but I didn't hear a lot about Hell in church growing up, and I went every week. TONS about how awesomely and infinitely forgiving God was, though.

Same, we had it good dog.

 

[Mr Waluigi]

Catholic definition maybe? Baptism in Protestant churches are dictated as an outward showing of the inward change in one's self as well as following the commands of the Lord and his path on Earth. Baptism isn't your salvation, it's just showing you are obediant to the Lord and what He has done in you.

Right, I kind of forgot Protestants existed. Sorry.

I am a part of a discussion group here in TN called GodWhy? that have many in depth discussion on various subjects.

You and others are coming at me as if I come from a place of complete ignorance on the subject and got me all wrong. I *lived* in this world, not just observed and judged - almost getting on the path of becoming a pastor.

If it's a subject that you're interested in discussing without assuming I'm coming from a hostile place, then feel free to PM me about the subject further. We can start over with a better understanding.



This is how it was taught to me in many of the religious schools I attended as well. That is unique to Catholicism (and possibly other minority Protestant domination I'm unfamiliar with )

Either way, it remains true that religion is about sharing a common culture, not just belief in this or that. It is true for Christianity as well. A large share of Christians consider themselves to be Christians even though they do not believe in everything their Church claims (or even in none of it), but they go to Mass weekly, hold their religion's ethical teachings in high respect, and even pray. It is because they enjoy the aspects of the religion that have nothing to do with the belief itself: doing the same thing every week, meeting up as a community, the artistic aspects of the choirs and the buildings, Christian philosophy, Christian history...

I'd bring to attention the "Here, we are Catholic!" that was shouted while a woman wearing a burkini had to leave the beach in France. Or the waves of nationalism among Orthodox Churches as well as American Protestants. Or the large amounts of Evangelical Protestants, mainline Protestants, and Catholics who are in favor of Trump not although of, but because of his policies. I only gave conservative examples (only ones I can think of right now) but you see what I mean. Christianity is strongly cultural.

 

[Melkezadek]

I apologise, I clearly misinterpreted you.

It's all good. If there's any takeaway I have from my religious upbringing, is that it's better to forgive than to hold onto past transgressions.

We good.

 

[Acorn]

Maybe it's just laissez-faire American Catholicism, but I didn't hear a lot about Hell in church growing up, and I went every week. TONS about how awesomely and infinitely forgiving God was, though.

Same Scotland.

For the rap (Catholic guilt) there isn't really a whole lot of evidence of it these days. It's essentially don't be a dick even to dicks.

 

[More_Badass]

Maybe it's just laissez-faire American Catholicism, but I didn't hear a lot about Hell in church growing up, and I went every week. TONS about how awesomely and infinitely forgiving God was, though.

I imagine that's how most modern churches are. My church was like that. And every other church I've been to as well.

 

[Acorn]

It's all good. If there's any takeaway I have from my religious upbringing, is that it's better to forgive than to hold onto past transgressions.

We good.

Lol

Quite! Glad to hear it, shouldn't of been as snippy with you.

 

[blakep267]

I imagine that's how most modern churches are. My church was like that. And every other church I've been to as well.

Yeah. I'd say most churches have gone away from preaching hellfire and brimstone. I mean sure there are some that still exist but over the many that I've visited they mostly preach being a better person

Like there's always the alter call to save people but Hell Isnt mentioned that much

 

[Alcoremortis]

I remember, from growing up Catholic, that it was what you did that got you into heaven, not what you believed in. But that you still should be Catholic so you could get all the cheatcodes and walkthroughs.

 

[Acorn]

I imagine that's how most modern churches are. My church was like that. And every other church I've been to as well.

Catholic?

 

[More_Badass]

Catholic?

Yeah, Catholic

 

[The Abominable Snowman]

I feel like OP recently went to the movies and saw Sausage Party.

 

[Dai Kaiju]

I'm a Christian and I'm absolutely horrified of Hell. According to the Bible, it's extremely difficult to get into God's kingdom, especially for Christians because they're supposed to know better. For example, if you're a Christian and you remarry, unless your previous wife cheated on you, God considers that adultery which leads to eternal torture in Hell. Most Christians blow it off with "I know God will forgive me", but in order for Him to forgive you, you have to actually be sorry and not plan on continuing the sinful behavior after you repent. If you intend on banging your second wife after confessing your sin (which 99% of people would) your confession was meaningless.

I was an atheist for the majority of my adult life so I'm not just blindly following something that was pushed on me by my parents. I don't know why the rules are the way they are so don't ask me why the creator of the universe is concerned with xyz.

 

[M0nochromatic]

You really can't sleep when you buy into those claims. I was raised to believe in Christian ideas, and I started to encounter all of the contradictions when I really began learning about the world around me. Thinking about all of the pain my omniscient, omnipotent, and omni benevolent God permitted to exist really bothered me once I initially thought of it. It continued to trouble me, up until I discarded those beliefs.

Its difficult to cope with competing messages. "Empathize with others, and help who you can" and "Eh, those suffering either deserve it, or it's part of a mysterious plan" really fucks you up as a person.

 

[astroturfing]

I'm a Christian and I'm absolutely horrified of Hell. According to the Bible, it's extremely difficult to get into God's kingdom, especially for Christians because they're supposed to know better. For example, if you're a Christian and you remarry, unless your previous wife cheated on you, God considers that adultery which leads to eternal torture in Hell. Most Christians blow it off with "I know God will forgive me", but in order for Him to forgive you, you have to actually be sorry and not plan on continuing the sinful behavior after you repent. If you intend on banging your second wife after confessing your sin (which 99% of people would) your confession was meaningless.

I was an atheist for the majority of my adult life so I'm not just blindly following something that was pushed on me by my parents. I don't know why the rules are the way they are so don't ask me why the creator of the universe is concerned with xyz.

a lot of Christians believe there's no hell, why don't you try and believe that as well? would save you a lot of stress, you wouldn't have to be horrified.

where exactly in the Bible does it say that hell definitely exists? you'd think God's word would be absolutely clear on this so there'd be no confusion..

 

[SeanR1221]

I've had a priest explain it to me like this: God is full of infinite compassion. He isn't going to send you to an eternity of suffering for something trivial. People who are not Christian can make it into heaven, it's just not automatic. (This may not be canon, guy is pretty liberal).

Also can back up that we were taught this in school.

I'm not religious, but there's your answer. Those billions of people are fine

 

[Amibguous Cad]

The doctrine of hell is extrabiblical apocrypha anyway.

But yes, Christian eschatology is pretty shitty in general. There are varying levels of punishment in the afterlife in various religions, but almost all of them either are of some finite duration or at least eventually lead to nothingness. You'll even get out of Buddhist Hell in a few hundred millenia. Christianity is unique, so far as I know, of offering eternal torment.

It's a wonder that anyone manages to be a moral person with such beliefs, but I suppose no one (atheists included!) is all that effected by what they believe the afterlife to be.

 

[jorgejjvr]

As a Christian, the thought does bother me of course. That should lead us into letting others know about Christ that much more. God will also judge others with no knowledge whatsoever differently, how so I'm not sure. That means they could potentially still go to heaven, as they had no means to know about Christ

 

[daveo42]

Maybe it's just laissez-faire American Catholicism, but I didn't hear a lot about Hell in church growing up, and I went every week. TONS about how awesomely and infinitely forgiving God was, though.

Protestants get a good mix of both the Wrath of God and the love of God. Mostly the latter when they wanna convert people with a little "you don't wanna go to hell cause it's super bad" mixed in to scare you into belief. We also never got the "good person" bit was also told there's only one way to heaven. I remember Pilgrim's Progess being a large part of that too. Everybody read that book.

The best (or worst) were Southern Baptists tho, as we were told even drums were of the devil. Serious. We spent a sermon watching the evils of rock music, including several choice songs and music videos of "evil". The one I remember the most is them using Metallica.

Also can back up that we were taught this in school.

I'm not religious, but there's your answer. Those billions of people are fine

If you're Catholic. Protestants say they are screwed unless they can figure out there is one true god from looking at the world around them and decide that god is the Christian God. Or someone shows up with a bible to "show them the way" to true salvation.

 

[Hex]

They sleep like babies because they generally feel that they are saved already or are good people, and they also know that people who do terrible things that may be unstoppable in life will be getting theirs in the afterlife.
Why should they fear it when the out is so easy?
Not really sure where the mystery is, unless you have some serious character flaws and like to shit on other people then the guilt might be understandable.

 

[Breads]

Faith is a virtue for them. They tell themselves do good things and they think they are good people because they do what they think is right. They do what makes the world a better place for them.

Reality has nothing to do with it.

 

[Omegasquash]

When I was a kid, I'd get afraid that the Devil would come and get me and take me to hell because I did something wrong. As in, most times kids are afraid of a monster or the dark, it wasn't monsters. It was fear that the Devil would get me. Lost sleep, was afraid of being alone lots of the time, etc.

That's what my parents told me. The Devil will come and get you if you don't behave/listen/tell the truth/be nice/etc. Recognizing that it was bullshit was really freeing.

 

[TissueBox]

The general notion being brought up here is the much-debated argument from nonbelief, a much more convincing argument than the more predominant moral conflict addressed in theodicy, imo.

 

[Head of Vengarl]

I was surprised by the amount of people who say they were taught that basically anyone who isn't an asshole doesn't have to worry about Hell. I Googled "do non believers go to hell" and I came across this article:

http://www.bethinking.org/is-christianity-the-only-way/do-only-christians-go-to-heaven

Do only Christians go to Heaven?

Classical evangelical doctrine holds that salvation comes only through faith in Jesus Christ, and that those without such faith will be condemned to hell. A number of texts are typically cited in support of this position.

In John 14:6 Jesus declares, "I am the way and the truth and the life. No-one comes to the Father except through me."

In Acts 4:12 Peter proclaims, "Salvation is found in no–one else, for there is no other name under heaven given among mortals by which we must be saved."

For Paul, the faithful will enjoy eternal life, but those who don’t know Christ will "be punished with everlasting destruction" (2 Thessalonians 1:9). Hence his urgent call: "How can they believe in the one of whom they have not heard? And how can they hear without someone preaching to them?" (Romans 10:14).

Taking such texts at face value, many evangelical scholars maintain that even those who fail to hear the Gospel through no fault of their own will be damned. Often called "exclusivists" or "particularists", this group includes Hendrik Kraemer, Douglas Gevitt and R.C. Sproul. However, in recent years a growing number of evangelicals have argued that at least some who do not profess Christ before death can be saved. Broadly defined as "inclusivists" or "accessibilists", this group includes Clark Pinnock, John Sanders, Stanley Grenz and Nigel Wright. As evangelicals, they claim to find warrant for their "wider hope" in Scripture.

Inclusivists often draw an analogy with the Old Testament saints. In Hebrews 11, a whole line of godly figures who never knew Jesus explicitly are counted among the redeemed. Those who live faithfully within their own religious context today without hearing the Good News are seen to be in a similar position, and to be similarly qualified for salvation.

Exclusivists, however, reject this argument on the grounds that Jesus decisively globalised the mission of God beyond Israel, and that salvation which bypasses overt faith in Him is no longer possible.

Implicit faith

A second model of implicit faith is often inferred from Romans 2:12-16, where Paul appears to suggest that unbelieving Gentiles who "do not have the law" will be judged according to their "conscience". Inclusivists characteristically apply this to those who do not hear the Gospel before they die.

As we have seen, however, Romans later makes hearing and responding to the Gospel a matter of critical importance for all people, whether they have known the law or not. In any case, it is important to realise that conscience is itself affected by sin, and is thus hardly infallible.

The third instance in which God might be thought to save some who don’t profess Christ as Saviour concerns those who die in infancy. Scripture provides no explicit teaching on this matter, but it does offer hints that those who perish before they are old enough to make a conscious commitment might be saved.

It may be significant here that Jesus depicted the kingdom of God as belonging to children (Matthew 19:13-15). Although we are all "conceived in sin" (Psalm 51:5), Ronald Nash argues that our final judgment turns not on our sinful condition as members of a fallen human race, but on the sinful deeds we commit "in the body" (2 Corinthians 5:10).

By definition, he says, this standard cannot apply to deceased infants. Following Charles Hodge and Benjamin Warfield, Nash concludes on this basis that all who die in infancy within and outside the womb should be numbered among the elect.

What is clear is that, if those who die as infants are granted eternal life, it will come purely by the grace of God, whom we must always recognise as the final arbiter in these matters.

The same would apply to a fourth category of persons sometimes linked to the wider hope – those whose mental disability renders them unable to respond overtly to the Gospel. In this instance, as in the others we have considered, God will have mercy "on whom He wants to have mercy" (Romans 9:18).

A Second Chance?

So far, we have examined only those who die without professing faith, and who move straight from death to final judgement, as Hebrews 9:27 seems to suggest they will. However, some have extended wider-hope thinking beyond the grave, to a second chance for those who are not evangelised in their earthly life.

Pinnock and George Beasley-Murray derive this concept of post-mortem repentance from 1 Peter 3:18-20 and 4:6, where Jesus is shown preaching to "the spirits in prison who disobeyed long ago" and to "those who are now dead". However, most New Testament scholars deny that the texts in question have anything to do with "those who don’t hear" in the present age. Rather, the "spirits" of 3:19 are generally taken to be fallen angelic spirits, while the "dead" of 4:6, are most likely those Christians who had been "dead to sin" until they met Jesus in His earthly ministry, or those who heard Him and went on to die as martyrs.

As we weigh up these different approaches, one thing must surely remain clear. Understandable though it is, we simply cannot allow speculation on how God might deal with the special cases we’ve mentioned to blunt our evangelistic edge. We cannot second-guess God. In the final analysis, our proclamation of the Gospel should proceed on the assumption that those who don’t know Christ will face eternity without Him — and it should be all the more passionate for that.

© 2006 David Hilborn

 

[The Pope]

Part of religious dogma is rejoicing in the suffering of those who are not part of your cult because you and your church are special snowflakes.

Edit: Why do you think their are schisms in Christianity, in religion in general? Even in videogames certain platform owners considers themselves superior to others. To make people feel better about themselves, often people seek to look down on others. I see the sheer arrogance and self righteous of some evangalical pastors that come and preach to me and other students. The sheer delight on their face as they talk about the end of times. The righteous (you and me buddy because we were baptised or... whatever the fuck) shall triump and the rest shall burn in enternity in Hell.

Edit 2: Look I am an ex-Anglican and in church I always felt welcome. A very moderate message was delivered and in fact wonderful message was delivered. Sorry guys it is just in recent years I have been exposed daily to hardline evangilicals hence my rather radical stance and my unfair bitterness towards Christianity

 

[More_Badass]

I was surprised by the amount of people who say they were taught that basically anyone who isn't an asshole doesn't have to worry about Hell. I Googled "do non believers go to hell" and I came across this article:

http://www.bethinking.org/is-christianity-the-only-way/do-only-christians-go-to-heaven

Key words there are "classical evangelical doctrine" and "taking such texts at face value"

Part of religious dogma is rejoicing in the suffering of those who are not part of your cult because you and your church are special snowflakes.

No it's not. Well, at least not in modern Catholicism

 

[jorgejjvr]

Part of religious dogma is rejoicing in the suffering of those who are not part of your cult because you and your church are special snowflakes.

Hmmm... No

 

[GeordieMark]

Part of religious dogma is rejoicing in the suffering of those who are not part of your cult because you and your church are special snowflakes.

Odd thing for The Pope to come out with. I don't believe you are who you say you are.

 

[TheOctodad]

Phew, lots of questions to power through.

Long story short, these questions and stances are not limited to being outside of Christianity. It's literally something being argued about and tackled within Christianity:

I mean check out this video from a pastor a few years ago who wrote a book on this exact topic: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OkYp0K92aDA

Part of religious dogma is rejoicing in the suffering of those who are not part of your cult because you and your church are special snowflakes.

Wow, not true at all. Well, no more true than someone saying "Part of being an atheist is feeling intellectually superior that you don't have to follow any morality and can do whatever you want without feeling bad!" (I don't believe that, but come on, let's not treat people with different opinions like that).

 

[Digital-Hero]

I'm not trying to be a smartass — this is seriously bothering me:

If you truly believe in the Bible, particularly in the existence of Hell, how are you not absolutely paralyzed with horror all day and night?

Combine the populations of China and India and you have ~3 billion people, the vast majority of whom are not Christians. That means billions of people in those two countries alone are headed full-throttle toward an eternity of the worst imaginable suffering! I couldn't handle the thought of this; I wouldn't be able to sleep at night knowing so many people had such a terrible fate awaiting them. Even worse is the reality that it isn't even their fault! These billions of people were simply born in the wrong time and place and they missed out on the teachings of the Bible. I mean, what else can you say but: Holy crap, that really sucks for them...

Christians, is this ever on your mind? Or I suppose the better question is: Is this ever NOT on your mind? How can you be happy for even a moment, knowing that so many of your fellow humans are doomed to the worst possible fate after they die?!

I've been lying in bed unable to sleep for hours because just trying to fathom the idea of believing — I mean really believing — in Hell is so gut-wrenchingly horrifying it's keeping me awake.

Everyone has the right to believe what they want to believe. I tried to answer these the best I could based on some theological knowledge.


- According to the Bible, if you are truly believing and trusting in God you not need to fear. You're "saved by faith through grace" and not of your own works. It's what Jesus did for mankind. It's a gift from God for everyone. So it says shouldn't you share with others? [Reference: Ephesians 2:8]

- God will judge those based on what they know. The Bible says God is righteous, so wouldn't deciding eternal judgment based on those who didn't know be out of character. Also, what does that say for people who DO know?

[Reference: Revelation 19:2, Revelation 19:11]

- According to the Bible no one is born in the wrong place. There is a scripture that states, you born in a certain time and place according to the will of God.
[Reference: Acts 17:26]

- There is a reason to fear hell based on the descriptions, but it was originally created for Satan and his angels. It wasn't meant for mankind until the fall of man with Adam and Eve.
[Reference: Matthew 25:41-43]

The word Righteousness in Chinese:

The scripture says Jesus was the lamb that died for you. [Reference: John 1:29]

Large ship in Chinese:

Noah was one of 8 on the boat for the biblical flood.

 

[the-pi-guy]

Not every Christian has the same "this is how you get into heaven."

There are a lot that argue that you just have to be a good person.
An argument that I've heard is essentially that the more knowledge you have about the Bible, the higher the expectations are.

But of course, there's probably close to 2 billion interpretations of various things in the Bible/Christianity. So it's difficult to give an answer.

 

[TheOctodad]

There is a reason to fear hell based on the descriptions, but it was originally created for Satan and his angels. It wasn't meant for mankind until the fall of man with Adam and Eve.
[Reference: Matthew 25:41-43]

Theologically, I'm not sure it is accurate to say, " It wasn't meant for mankind until the fall of man with Adam and Eve." I don't see any strong evidence for that. Nor do I think that there is a strong Biblical support for the idea of any kind of eternal conscious suffering.

Interesting, in the passage that you quoted as reference here, God filters people out because of how they treat the poor and the oppressed. NOT because of what they believe or don't believe.

Edit: Why do you think their are schisms in Christianity, in religion in general? Even in videogames certain platform owners considers themselves superior to others. To make people feel better about themselves, often people seek to look down on others. I see the sheer arrogance and self righteous of some evangalical pastors that come and preach to me and other students. The sheer delight on their face as they talk about the end of times. The righteous (you and me buddy because we were baptised or... whatever the fuck) shall triump and the rest shall burn in enternity in Hell.

Because some people are asshole? And some people gravitate towards thinking that makes them feel superior and still has roots in their upbringing. If we are going to use anecdotal evidence I have examples of atheist, agnostics, muslims, christians, etc. all using their ideologies to feel superior to their fellow human beings. That's a human problem.

Baseline: being a Christian should mean being a "little Christ" looking like Jesus. Jesus did not support that kind of thinking or action. So by very definition, you cannot be a follow of "the way of Jesus" if you do not act, talk, and treat people like he did. I don't care how people try to maneuver their faiths to fit into it - anything not looking like Jesus is "antichrist."

 

[steveovig]

What other choice do Christians or anyone have? It's not extremely productive to just sit around all day in fear of the inevitable. Humans don't want to live in misery all the time.

 

[Chaplain]

There are a lot that argue that you just have to be a good person.

The problem with this view is that only God is good according to Jesus' definition of the word. So, this means that all humanity is on an equal playing field because none of us is good. This is why the gospel of Christ is so powerful. Since God is a relational being we must relate to Him on his terms. Which means having a relationship with Him cannot be earned through merit or ritual keeping.

EDIT:

Further explanation by Oxford Professor John Lennox:

“I met my wife at the first day of University, she was 16 but that’s a different story. She’s the most beautiful thing I had ever seen. Anyway, now of course I wanted to marry her eventually so I came to her one day and I presented her with a cookbook and its full of laws you know, if you’re going to make an apple cake, thou shall take so much grams of sugar, thou shalt take so many kilos of flour, thou shall take so much water you should boil and mix and so on. So I said “Now Sally, it’s going to be like this, you see. I couldn’t possibly accept you now. I mean, if you followed the prescriptions in this book for forty years I’d say, then I will think about accepting you. So how about becoming my wife? Do you think I did that? Why are you laughing? Do you know that’s how millions of people think of God? You wouldn’t insult a fellow human being by suggesting your relationship with them was based on merit, would you? Yet millions of People think exactly like that of God. If I try and keep the rules, then perhaps one day you’ll accept me. That’s slavery ladies and Gentlemen! And it’s one of the biggest reasons that people are running away from religion because Christianity has been interpreted like that and it’s the exact opposite. You imagine my wife having tried this for a year or two and really taking it seriously and wanting to bake an apple cake then she suddenly realized that if she doesn’t do it perfectly she’s back to her mother. And she turns the knob up to a thousand degree centigrade and out comes a burnt offering. That’s exactly what happened and people are trying to keep the rules and they become cramped and they become narrowed. They feel oppressed, they say God I'm not remotely interested in you. And they miss the whole point over God so loves them he spreads his arms out across and say, you can’t make an old chap of your own. I'm prepared to die for you and give you a free pardon right now. Ladies and Gentlemen, do you know why my wife is such a good cook? Because my acceptance of her doesn’t depend on it. I don’t go around the world talking about God like tonight, in order in hope that one-day God will accept me. I do it because he has accepted me. Do you see the difference? And you will know, those of you who are married, that the essence of a marriage is that security of acceptance that’s independent of the minor vagaries of the way we behave. Why would we insult God by suggesting to him we can merit him? And you see here that Christianity isn't competing with anybody. Because it’s utterly unique.” (Source)

 

[pvpness]

If they had answers then they wouldn't need faith. Of course I imagine most of the ones who aren't starving sleep pretty well at night.

 

[Dreadnought]

If people can go to heaven or hell. Then is heaven really heaven without some of your friends?

 

[Digital-Hero]

If people can go to heaven or hell. Then is heaven really heaven without some of your friends?

I'm sure if you were standing in front of the creator of the universe, God or Alien, you wouldn't be too concerned with that. Also, heaven is a place without sin according to the text.

 

[Digital-Hero]

Theologically, I'm not sure it is accurate to say, " It wasn't meant for mankind until the fall of man with Adam and Eve." I don't see any strong evidence for that. Nor do I think that there is a strong Biblical support for the idea of any kind of eternal conscious suffering.

Based on what I found through search of the text, I beg to differ. To each his own.

Luke 16:22-24
Matthew 25:46
2 Thessalonians 1:9
Matthew 13:50

 

[Helscream]

I'm not trying to be a smartass — this is seriously bothering me:

If you truly believe in the Bible, particularly in the existence of Hell, how are you not absolutely paralyzed with horror all day and night?

Combine the populations of China and India and you have ~3 billion people, the vast majority of whom are not Christians. That means billions of people in those two countries alone are headed full-throttle toward an eternity of the worst imaginable suffering! I couldn't handle the thought of this; I wouldn't be able to sleep at night knowing so many people had such a terrible fate awaiting them. Even worse is the reality that it isn't even their fault! These billions of people were simply born in the wrong time and place and they missed out on the teachings of the Bible. I mean, what else can you say but: Holy crap, that really sucks for them...

Christians, is this ever on your mind? Or I suppose the better question is: Is this ever NOT on your mind? How can you be happy for even a moment, knowing that so many of your fellow humans are doomed to the worst possible fate after they die?!

I've been lying in bed unable to sleep for hours because just trying to fathom the idea of believing — I mean really believing — in Hell is so gut-wrenchingly horrifying it's keeping me awake.

One analysis I would make is think of War. There is a huge difference between hearing/reading about War compared to being physically there and watching your brothers in arms being shot/maim/dismembered/blown apart. Just think of WW1 Trench warfrare.

Also I would say that VERY few Christian's understand the severity of Hell and just how horrific Hell is described in the Bible.

Isaiah 14:9-11 gives you a good idea.

 

[Brakke]

Some Christians don't "sleep at night" over the question of salvation for the righteous ignorant. That's why missionaries exist, that's why Mormons baptize dead people by proxy. If you take a literal stance and choose to believe that only the faithful go to heaven, you might practice some activity like that.

 

[daninthemix]

If people can go to heaven or hell. Then is heaven really heaven without some of your friends?

Your strongest relationship should be with God, which is why Jesus said "Whoever loves father or mother more than me is not worthy of me, and whoever loves son or daughter more than me is not worthy of me." (Matt 10:37)

Then again, if you are a Christian and love your (non-Christian) friends, you'll pray for them continually and talk to them if the opportunity presents. Then God may perhaps grant them repentance leading to a knowledge of the truth, (2 Tim 2:25)

Ultimately none of us can see across the veil. There were hints in the OT, many more hints in the NT, but ultimately now we see through a glass, darkly; but then face to face: now I know in part; but then shall I know even as also I am known. (1 Corinthians 13:12)

 

[Henkka]

I think there's a deeper problem with the concept of Hell... I'll try to explain.

Let's say you're a really shitty person. A murderer who feels no remorse, who also has knowledge of the gospel and disbelieves. Now even according to liberal, modern Christians, such a person would be going to some form of Hell, whatever that means in their interpretation. Could be eternal lake of fire or an ambiguous "separation from God".

But what's the point? When a murderer goes to prison, the purpose is to 1) protect others from his behaviour 2) create a deterrent for crime in general and 3) hopefully rehabilitate the person if possible.

In contrast, Hell goes on forever. There is no hope of rehabilitation. And the punishment can't possibly fit the crime... How could you justify an infinite punishment for finite crimes? Even if we're talking about a murderer, don't you think he's had enough after, say, 10000000000000000000000 years?

Hell isn't justice, it's vengeance.

 

[Caronte]

What makes you think christians are any less selfish than the rest of the world?

In my experience most of them don't care about any of that anyway, even for themselves.

 

[Melkezadek]

I think there's a deeper problem with the concept of Hell... I'll try to explain.

Let's say you're a really shitty person. A murderer who feels no remorse, who also has knowledge of the gospel and disbelieves. Now even according to liberal, modern Christians, such a person would be going to some form of Hell, whatever that means in their interpretation. Could be eternal lake of fire or an ambiguous "separation from God".

But what's the point? When a murderer goes to prison, the purpose is to 1) protect others from his behaviour 2) create a deterrent for crime in general and 3) hopefully rehabilitate the person if possible.

In contrast, Hell goes on forever. There is no hope of rehabilitation. And the punishment can't possibly fit the crime... How could you justify an infinite punishment for finite crimes? Even if we're talking about a murderer, don't you think he's had enough after, say, 10000000000000000000000 years?

Hell isn't justice, it's vengeance.

From my understanding of scripture, is that that version of hell isn't exactly biblical. (the idea of hell being your new permanent residency, forever) Though it's definitely taught in many churches and perpetrated in the mainstream.

I agree with your assessment of those that hold that interpretation, though. Doesn't sound like justice at all. But I think that version of God is anything but.

 

[Lothar]

Your strongest relationship should be with God, which is why Jesus said "Whoever loves father or mother more than me is not worthy of me, and whoever loves son or daughter more than me is not worthy of me." (Matt 10:37)

Then again, if you are a Christian and love your (non-Christian) friends, you'll pray for them continually and talk to them if the opportunity presents. Then God may perhaps grant them repentance leading to a knowledge of the truth, (2 Tim 2:25)

Ultimately none of us can see across the veil. There were hints in the OT, many more hints in the NT, but ultimately now we see through a glass, darkly; but then face to face: now I know in part; but then shall I know even as also I am known. (1 Corinthians 13:12)

So basically "Screw my atheists friends and family members" is what it boils down to.

How does one sleep at night living in relative comfort compared to billions of people suffering from malnourishment, disease, poverty, homelessness, and/or violence?

We as a species are very capable of ignoring others' suffering without religion factoring into it. Even those who devote their lives to helping others can't constantly think of that shit 24/7, it's stressful.

Non religious people are not worshipping the being that causes malnourishment, disease, poverty, homelessness, and/or violence. That's a bit of a difference. Christians are actually worshipping the being that sends everyone to eternal torment for not believing.

 

[Ganzlinger]

I'm curious, what do you think makes your view correct and the view of someone who doesn't believe in a literal interpretation of the bible wrong? How can any individual claim to know the correct interpretation of any of it? I've never seen any evidence that anyone religious is doing anything except putting their spin on what's "correct" to suit their particular world view.

I don't have the presumption that I'm right. I just believe, that's why they call "faith" I guess. Perhaps I'm wrong and there is nothing beyond death, perhaps I'm worshipping a wrong god.

 

[Digital-Hero]

I think there's a deeper problem with the concept of Hell... I'll try to explain.

Let's say you're a really shitty person. A murderer who feels no remorse, who also has knowledge of the gospel and disbelieves. Now even according to liberal, modern Christians, such a person would be going to some form of Hell, whatever that means in their interpretation. Could be eternal lake of fire or an ambiguous "separation from God".

But what's the point? When a murderer goes to prison, the purpose is to 1) protect others from his behaviour 2) create a deterrent for crime in general and 3) hopefully rehabilitate the person if possible.

In contrast, Hell goes on forever. There is no hope of rehabilitation. And the punishment can't possibly fit the crime... How could you justify an infinite punishment for finite crimes? Even if we're talking about a murderer, don't you think he's had enough after, say, 10000000000000000000000 years?

Hell isn't justice, it's vengeance.

According to the text, the unseen world spirit world where God dwells (eternal) is the "real world". Your punishment is based on that dimension. The human existence is almost like a simulation.

http://www.scientificamerican.com/article/are-we-living-in-a-computer-simulation/