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[specialguy]

they were really stupid. wii u is a case study on why bc is terrible.

The GPU is quite large and should be very powerful, but it contains a lot of Wii GPU and EDRAM, and very little compute units.

Then the CPU, of necessity to allow BC, is also just an overclocked Wii-based CPU, and therefore is very weak.

All that for the 5 people who will play Wii games on the Wii U.

Wii U is literally a case study on why designing a console around BC is awful.

 

[Man-is-Obsolete]

Everything has a price even if it isn't fully represented by the price you bought it. BC could potentially introduce costs into the manufacturing process that leads to other things getting scaled back, or worse the entire system could be stuck using the same architecture design that is not as widely accepted or in the case of the PS3 is oft criticized.

The Wii U may have BC, but it also doesn't have the ability to output audio via optical, no Dolby Digital support, no ability to play Blu Rays or even DVDs, an architecture that is not as widely used (especially now going forward), and in general is a under powered unit. Now all of those things are not the direct result of BC, I have been vocal in that the Gamepad has affected a lot of the design principles and costs, but let's not act like BC is some free to add thing that should be included on every console.

As a hypothetical. If there was a poll on GAF, 8GB of GDDR5/no BC or 4GB of GDDR5/with BC, then the vote would overwhelmingly be for the 8GB version.

Lastly what good has BC done for the Wii U? It isn't selling very well, and 3rd party relations are worsening by the day.

 

[Orayn]

Would something like this help the cause?

EDIT: Looking for image

Nope, unfortunately, since Gamecube mode can't "see" any Wii input devices. I don't want to say it's impossible, but it'd take some ingenious homebrew hacking to make that happen, and I don't think many people are devoting the effort at this point.

 

[Crash Station]

Looks like those users won't last long.

Chickdigger is not a real junior member.

 

[BocoDragon]

Everything has a price even if it isn't fully represented by the price you bought it. BC could potentially introduce costs into the manufacturing process that leads to other things getting scaled back, or worse the entire system could be stuck using the same architecture design that is not as widely accepted or in the case of the PS3 is oft criticized.

The Wii U may have BC, but it also doesn't have the ability to output audio via optical, no Dolby Digital support, no ability to play Blu Rays or even DVDs, an architecture that is not as widely used (especially now going forward), and in general is a under powered unit. Now all of those things are not the direct result of BC, I have been vocal in that the Gamepad has affected a lot of the design principles and costs, but let's not act like BC is some free to add thing that should be included on every console.

As a hypothetical. If there was a poll on GAF, 8GB of GDDR5/no BC or 4GB of GDDR5/with BC, then the vote would overwhelmingly be for the 8GB version.

Lastly what good has BC done for the Wii U? It isn't selling very well, and 3rd party relations are worsening by the day.

Yeah I wouldn't be surprised if Nintendo gets the idea to not bother with BC next time around...

 

[Gahiggidy]

:lol

Anyways, did the wii u actually accept gcn discs? Or was this from a hard drive rip?

I don't see why Nintendo couldn't release a gamecube usb dongle to facilitate gcn controllers and memory cards.

 

[Majine]

:lol

Anyways, did the wii u actually accept gcn discs? Or was this from a hard drive rip?

I don't see why Nintendo couldn't release a gamecube usb dongle to facilitate gcn controllers and memory cards.

I think the answer lies in stuff like Wind Waker HD.

 

[AmFreak]

they were really stupid. wii u is a case study on why bc is terrible.

The GPU is quite large and should be very powerful, but it contains a lot of Wii GPU and EDRAM, and very little compute units.

Then the CPU, of necessity to allow BC, is also just an overclocked Wii-based CPU, and therefore is very weak.

All that for the 5 people who will play Wii games on the Wii U.

Wii U is literally a case study on why BC is awful.

Bc can be a drawback. But BC obvously isn't the reason why the cpu is at it is.

 

[Clefargle]

Because the Wii U ain't shit, just motherfucking poo poo.

How can it be both poopoo and also not shit?

 

[Orayn]

:lol

Anyways, did the wii u actually accept gcn discs? Or was this from a hard drive rip?

I don't see why Nintendo couldn't release a gamecube usb dongle to facilitate gcn controllers and memory cards.

The discovery of the Wii U's intact Gamecube mode was made with a USB image loader.

As for the rest, it'd be too much work for something that relatively few people care about. The only ways to do it are hassles in terms of either hardware or software, so Nintendo chose neither.

 

[Veitsev]

they were really stupid. wii u is a case study on why bc is terrible.

The GPU is quite large and should be very powerful, but it contains a lot of Wii GPU and EDRAM, and very little compute units.

Then the CPU, of necessity to allow BC, is also just an overclocked Wii-based CPU, and therefore is very weak.

All that for the 5 people who will play Wii games on the Wii U.

Wii U is literally a case study on why BC is awful.

This isn't remotely the fault of BC. Nintendo chose to design the Wii U for specific reasons. They chose to put their development costs into a controller and its streaming tech. If they just packaged a regular controller or a wiimote the console would have been less expensive and they could have either put in more powerful hardware or sold it for a cheaper price. This is Nintendo thinking a strategy of a gimmick and lower end hardware will be more successful than going the power route and driving up the costs of developing their own games. They also don't think graphics are really important and have clearly stated since last generation they believe we have reached a point of diminishing returns.

Also to the poster that brought up no ability to play Blu-rays or DVD's that is also a choice because Nintendo doesn't want to pay the licensing fees for that ability which go directly to their competitor. They believe it isn't worth it because so many people already have devices that can play Blurays and DVDs.

 

[Pop-O-Matic]

:lol

Anyways, did the wii u actually accept gcn discs? Or was this from a hard drive rip?

I don't see why Nintendo couldn't release a gamecube usb dongle to facilitate gcn controllers and memory cards.

Wii U disc drive can only accept full-sized discs, and Nintendo likes exploiting rereleases, so a GCN addon ain't happening.

 

[marc^o^]

I assume people who say BC is useless haven't installed Homebrew Channel and the usb loader on their Wii U.

All my wii games are there, looking slightly better than before.

I'm glad it exists.

 

[DreadPirateRoberts]

Nope, unfortunately, since Gamecube mode can't "see" any Wii input devices. I don't want to say it's impossible, but it'd take some ingenious homebrew hacking to make that happen, and I don't think many people are devoting the effort at this point.

Well, Devolution runs GameCube ISOs in Wii mode on the Wii, so a Wii U mod to do the same is definitely possible.

 

[ii Stryker]

.Lastly what good has BC done for the Wii U? It isn't selling very well, and 3rd party relations are worsening by the day

The WiiU not selling well has literally nothing to do with BC. Most are waiting to see what all three have to offer before making a decision.

 

[Log4Girlz]

There are always significant compromises to backwards compatibility...Wii U is a perfect example of this. It appears that its performance suffers due to incorporating legacy hardware and architecture.

 

[Codeblue]

Nope, unfortunately, since Gamecube mode can't "see" any Wii input devices. I don't want to say it's impossible, but it'd take some ingenious homebrew hacking to make that happen, and I don't think many people are devoting the effort at this point.

Is that cube pad plugged into Wiimote? Is there a special adapter for sale or is the cable modded?

 

[Man-is-Obsolete]

I assume people who say BC is useless haven't installed Homebrew Channel and the usb loader on their Wii U.

All my wii games are there, looking slightly better than before.

I'm glad it exists.

Welcome to the less than 1 percent club.

The WiiU not selling well has literally nothing to do with BC. Most are waiting to see what all three have to offer before making a decision.

Then what's the point? You really think a BC Wii U is going to be the differentiator this holiday season?

 

[Instro]

They did it by handicapping the WiiU, and wasting money developing old architecture into a current system. It is a clear example of why BC is a cool concept, but ultimately can be disastrous for new hardware. Comparatively, its fucking dreadful that we won't even have access to our old PSN games on the PS4 which makes DD on consoles utterly worthless.

 

[Orayn]

Well, Devolution runs GameCube ISOs in Wii mode on the Wii, so a Wii U mod to do the same is definitely possible.

Just did a little extra reading on Devolution. Sounds like Wiimote emulation of Gamecube controllers is planned, so hopefully it does materialize at some point. Surprisingly, they already have emulation of the Broadband Adapter, so I'm actually feeling a little optimistic now.

Is that cube pad plugged into Wiimote? Is there a special adapter for sale or is the cable modded?

Modded GC controller, though someone also developed an Arduino-based GC-to-Wiimote adapter that lets you keep the GC controller intact.

 

[Caddywompus]

The only reason it doesn't play GameCube games is so Nintendo could save a few dollars on parts.

And so they can sell HD versions of Gamecube games at $60 dollars. Page right out of Sony's playbook.

 

[pieatorium]

Then what's the point? You really think a BC Wii U is going to be the differentiator this holiday season?

If the Wii software landscape hadn't fallen off a map I think it would have made more of a difference to the WiiU.

 

[Instro]

And so they can sell HD versions of Gamecube games at $60 dollars. Page right out of Sony's playbook.

I'd certainly rather have HD collections over BC for ugly games.

 

[DreadPirateRoberts]

Just did a little extra reading on Devolution. Sounds like Wiimote emulation of Gamecube controllers is planned, so hopefully it does materialize at some point. Sounds like they already have emulation of the Broadband Adapter, surprisingly, so I'm actually feeling a little optimistic now.

Maybe one day we'll even be able to stream GameCube games to the Gamepad. It's really incredible what some of the hackers have managed to do with the Wii.

And so they can sell HD versions of Gamecube games at $60 dollars. Page right out of Sony's playbook.

Backwards compatibility and HD versions are really two different markets, you buy an HD for the visual upgrade.

 

[Orayn]

They did it by handicapping the WiiU, and wasting money developing old architecture into a current system. It is a clear example of why BC is a cool concept, but ultimately can be disastrous for new hardware. Comparatively, its fucking dreadful that we won't even have access to our old PSN games on the PS4 which makes DD on consoles utterly worthless.

Compromises were made, but I don't think this was necessarily a case of BC being the main deciding factor in Nintendo making a choice between a Durango/PS4-like system and the Wii U we got. Going with a lower powered, evolved Wii setup simply fit best into their overall plans for the system.

 

[Alexios]

Dude asks question about bc in next gen systems, people answer Wii U is terrible and has and will never have games. Logic.

 

[IHaveCandy]

The Wii U is 2 Wiis duct-taped together, which are each 2 Gamecubes duct-taped together.

 

[specialguy]

Bc can be a drawback. But BC obvously isn't the reason why the cpu is at it is.

As far as I know, it's exactly why. The easiest path to BC is the same hardware just overclocked, as Gamecube>Wii...

Now, it's possible Nintendo would have designed Wii U to be weak even without BC (say, with ARM cores or something for the CPU). If that's your proposition, fine, hard to really argue against it without being Nintendo since we will never know.

All I know is looking at the architecture, it seems to me like BC is a BIG reason Wii U is at it is.

The Wii U GPU as I stated, is actually quite large, yet the games look like PS360 games. From the die analysis, a lot of the space is EDRAM, and probably a decent amount is basically building in a Wii GPU for BC. Leaving not enough for shader arrays, so it has either only 320 or 160 SP's most likely.

 

[ii Stryker]

There are always significant compromises to backwards compatibility...Wii U is a perfect example of this. It appears that its performance suffers due to incorporating legacy hardware and architecture.

With regards to Nintendo their legacy is their older games. Of the three Nintendo has the strongest IP and BC is a bigger selling point for WiiU then GAF gives it credit for.

 

[marc^o^]

Welcome to the less than 1 percent club.

Hardcore. Though it's easier than you think.

 

[Veitsev]

They did it by handicapping the WiiU, and wasting money developing old architecture into a current system. It is a clear example of why BC is a cool concept, but ultimately can be disastrous for new hardware. Comparatively, its fucking dreadful that we won't even have access to our old PSN games on the PS4 which makes DD on consoles utterly worthless.

Okay I don't understand why you (and others) are making this argument. Nintendo didn't decide "We want BC, lets handicap our hardware to do it", they decided to go the lower power route because they don't place a priority on graphics and putting that money into a control scheme (gimmick) to differ themselves from their competition is a higher priority. I mean ask yourself this if the Wii U didn't have BC and still had its controller do you really believe it would be all that more powerful? The money went into that controller + its streaming tech. Hell, potentially unnecessary system power went into that streaming tech as the console needs to display twice. Given that the Wii was just a slightly upgraded Gamecube you would think it would be a lot cheaper just to put a Wii chip on a Wii U system that used more standard parts and package it with a Wiimote. BC isn't the reason the Wii U is underpowered, Nintendo's philosophy on hardware is why its underpowered.

 

[Zoramon089]

Too bad you are wrong because it can...

Too bad you're wrong because it's still only just in the same family of chips and not just the same chip. But it can play GC games

 

[ii Stryker]

Then what's the point? You really think a BC Wii U is going to be the differentiator this holiday season?

The inclusion of BC along with price and as it stands right now I think Sony will lose this holiday.

The omission of features is never good.

 

[Ahasverus]

It can...

The fuck?

 

[Instro]

Compromises were made, but I don't think this was necessarily a case of BC being the main deciding factor in Nintendo making a choice between a Durango/PS4-like system and the Wii U we got. Going with a lower powered, evolved Wii setup simply fit best into their overall plans for the system.

Or there could be a middle ground, one where the console is not horribly bottle necked by a bizarre cpu setup. Regardless, the WiiU is over engineered for the sake of BC which inevitably increases costs and makes the system harder to develop for.

 

[Fandangox]

As someone who skipped the GCN I'm hoping for DD releases of F-Zero GX, the only game I always to try.

I will never forget the day I found GX for $5 in gamestop.

The most magical day ever.


Ever.

 

[StevieP]

they were really stupid. wii u is a case study on why bc is terrible.

The GPU is quite large and should be very powerful, but it contains a lot of Wii GPU and EDRAM, and very little compute units.

Then the CPU, of necessity to allow BC, is also just an overclocked Wii-based CPU, and therefore is very weak.

All that for the 5 people who will play Wii games on the Wii U.

Wii U is literally a case study on why designing a console around BC is awful.

Most of this post isn't quite correct (nor are the "2 Wiis ductaped together" posts even remotely close to being accurate). I don't really wish to go over it point-by-point, but it's not cut and dry like this and in fact you're also over-simplifying. Also, if you've read the many threads pertaining to the loss of BC on other consoles on this very site you'll see that it's not a trivial matter to many people. Essentially you're trivializing it.

Edit: To top it off, seeing as how the Wii's global tie-ratio is close to that of the PS3 and just about 1 game under the 360's, there are a lot of Wii games floating around out there that people may want to play - by volume, the console sold the most software, after all.

 

[Orayn]

The inclusion of BC along with price and as it stands right now I think Sony will lose this holiday.

The omission of features is never good.

I kind of agree with you in principle, but how far do you want to take this? The PS4 could include the original Playstation's serial port for playing system link Armored Core, but would the goodness of including those features justify their cost? The lack of PS3 BC is unfortunate, but does Sony need to be criticized for every possible feature that they didn't implement?

 

[Zoramon089]

they were really stupid. wii u is a case study on why bc is terrible.

The GPU is quite large and should be very powerful, but it contains a lot of Wii GPU and EDRAM, and very little compute units.

Then the CPU, of necessity to allow BC, is also just an overclocked Wii-based CPU, and therefore is very weak.

All that for the 5 people who will play Wii games on the Wii U.

Wii U is literally a case study on why designing a console around BC is awful.

It's like you're just making stuff up, or at the least simplifying everything to an extreme degree. Also, what's wrong with eDRAM?

 

[Roto13]

Sony announces that the PS4 won't be backwards compatible, people shriek about it. The Wii U is backwards compatible, people shriek about that too.

NeoGAF.gif

 

[Satchel]

Because despite popular opinion on GAF, Nintendo is the only company of the 3 that ACTUALLY comes close to legitimately caring about gamers.

 

[nhlducks35]

Because despite popular opinion on GAF, Nintendo is the only company of the 3 that ACTUALLY comes close to legitimately caring about gamers.

Nah, I'm pretty sure Sony put 8GB of RAM in the PS4 for gamers and developers

 

[Eusis]

Because despite popular opinion on GAF, Nintendo is the only company of the 3 that ACTUALLY comes close to legitimately caring about gamers.

Well, I think there's more people at Sony who care than Microsoft at least, though I think Nintendo on a whole probably cares most. But I also think it's disingenuous to say the other two don't care or at least barely care.

 

[JordanN]

Well, I think there's more people at Sony who care than Microsoft at least, though I think Nintendo on a whole probably cares most. But I also think it's disingenuous to say the other two don't care or at least barely care.

When the worst screw ups involve butchering third party support and failing at online versus pricing a console at $600, I'm hard pressed to believe how Nintendo cares more about gamers.

 

[serplux]

When the worst screw ups involve butchering third party support and failing at online versus pricing a console at $600, I'm hard pressed to say how Nintendo cares more.

The Wii U eShop is actually quite nice; the placement of everything is solid, and it's easy to find just about anything that's available. Plus they've gotten a lot of support on both the 3DS and Wii U, and they have widespread demos and pretty much every retail game, along with sales and indie support. The only problem I really have with it is the speed.

 

[ii Stryker]

I kind of agree with you in principle, but how far do you want to take this? The PS4 could include the original Playstation's serial port for playing system link Armored Core, but would the goodness of including those features justify their cost? The lack of PS3 BC is unfortunate, but does Sony need to be criticized for every possible feature that they didn't implement?

I think it's more an issue of first party IP strength which Nintendo has in spades. Nothing against Sony but every Nintendo game is pretty timeless. If they'd offer almost any of their older games remastered in HD with pro controller support I'd be there day 1 you really can't say the same for Sony's IP.

Sony probably made the best decision for their needs and what they want their message to consumers to be.

 

[Eusis]

When the worst screw ups involve butchering third party support and failing at online versus pricing a console at $600, I'm hard pressed to believe how Nintendo cares more about gamers.

Well, I think the care is in different areas, and for different reasons. Nintendo's profoundly thick when it comes to digital stuff, but they seem to care more about just making the games more than the others, even at the detriment to power in favor of (the hope of) innovation through unique interfaces which also tends to alienate third parties who'd rather either push power or easily port between platforms, and their outreach to casuals was more along the lines of those like Popcap rather than the borderline scamming freemium stuff that is prolific on iOS. Nevermind that when it comes to the higher ups it does go from Nintendo > Sony > Microsoft for those most intimately involved in games, Nintendo's a game only company so it comes naturally, I'm not sure how involved Kaz Hirai ever was with game development but his origins are with SCE so obviously he's closer, and Steve Ballmer... probably only has a say in who is hired and who is fired, and possibly a general direction, which is possibly part of why the next Xbox could well be a nightmare to many actual game consumers (I'm not even saying core here, it's likely to be a nightmare moreso for the mainstream.)

EDIT: Though admittedly in that specific case it's Nintendo vs Sony, and with Sony I think it's more by happenstance they're more gaming friendly (rest of the divisions did badly while gaming did relatively well outside of Ken Kuturagi's fumble with the PS3, so people from gaming side get promoted to be in charged.) Once factoring in Microsoft, well, we'll have to wait and see, but they very likely are going to go from a company that was VERY friendly to one that's kind of antagonistic.

 

[Vagabundo]

Because its two Wii's taped together

Ehh it's about 35 Wii's taped together.

 

[Criminal Upper]

Because it's not all that hard.

 

[PetrCobra]

I will never forget the day I found GX for $5 in gamestop.

The most magical day ever.


Ever.

What about the day I found SSBM for, like... (conversion rate lookup) $10 early in GC's lifetime?

Anyway, I don't think I'll use Wii U's BC too much because it seems super uncomfortable from the feedback I saw. So, for me, only the BC for Wii's peripherals is worth something.