Support NeoGAF

[Platy]

Because bows are almost a tertiary sexual characteristic (Warning : TVTROPES) ! =D

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Amazons

I always found insteresting the myth that they cut their left breast to be able to use a bow better .... that is some high level dedication

To bad that is probably just a myth

 

[GungHo]

I just caught the first episode of "Arrow" last night, looks like silly fun and gives Amell an excuse to run around and kill mooks with arrows.

The name of series works because at times he just walks up to bad guys and stabs them with the arrow.

 

[The Anti-Monitor]

I really wish more actresses would bulk up the way she did for Blade and Stealth. Unfortunetely, I think she took some flak for looking too masculine, and I don't know if it hurt her film and modeling prospects, but it really does go a long way in making the character more believable. Would probably give directors a little more flexibility in fights too where a man knocking the shit out of a petite woman is guaranteed to draw criticism.

Seriously?

I think she looked absolutely fantastic.

 

[A.E Suggs]

Seriously?

I think she looked absolutely fantastic.

Your a female of course you thought that .

Spoiler

Don't hurt me A.M , She did look great though

 

[CorvoSol]

Why are bows and arrows so useless in video games? In like 90% of games Bows do really terrible damage.

Play Tactics Ogre: Let Us Cling Together.

Bows > Swords in that game.

 

[bengraven]

I love these threads.

"I've noticed a pattern that almost inescapable in popular media..."

"I'm going to post one pic from an obscure piece of media to disprove you".



It's definitely an issue of "girls with swords are threatening, let the boys have them".

 

[twobear]

I think it is not just women, archery is everywhere. My wife asked for a bow for her upcoming birthday which I just ordered. But not because of Hunger Games, but she really likes that new show Arrow. I wonder why...

 

[d0c_zaius]

always? nope

Michonne from Walking Dead says wassup.

 

[umop_3pisdn]

I'm probably not the first to refer to this, but I think this probably accounts for a lot of it:

http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/BeautyIsNeverTarnished

 

[Ducarmel]

Gee I wonder how I forgot lightning lol.



No not difficult more so that their genetic make-up doesn't allow for them to use it as well as a male at peek level. Its not even that females can't be better at using swords in skill, its just the physical strength that gets in the way like with sports, bewbs getting in the way doesn't help either.

What specifically is difficult for a women physically to fight with a sword?

I'm not saying your completely wrong about this you might know something about real sword fighting because I dont, but if a man and woman trained equally to use sword and shield and trained to wear fitted armor. How would a mans strength give him an advantage?

Quickly googling sword fighting everything we see on modern media is false, it seems like strength meant little and it was more about movement/dexterity/leverage and experience. Like most martial arts sword fighting is about striking with efficiency and effectiveness.

 

[CountAntonius]

To go along with what some have said bows are pretty much everywhere now. The Weatherman almost made me get into archery.

 

[A.E Suggs]

What specifically is difficult for a women physically to fight with a sword?

I'm not saying your completely wrong about this you might know something about real sword fighting because I dont, but if a man and woman trained equally to use sword and shield and trained to wear fitted armor. How would a mans strength give him an advantage?

Quickly googling sword fighting everything we see on modern media is false, it seems like strength meant little and it was more about movement/dexterity/leverage and experience. Like most martial arts sword fighting is about striking with efficiency and effectiveness.

A lot of that has to do with physical strength as well. The problem is your not taking the physical attributes into account from what I can see. If they were both equal in skill in what you mentioned they would have to rely on something else like stamina, strength or personality,etc.

I'm not an expert on sword fighting either, but i'm sure its more believable that if both are equal in those fields you mentioned then the one with more physical fit would come out on top in a fight. I'd have to see a real male vs female sword fight to really determine this cause other than that were both just taking guesses.

 

[Dreams-Visions]

I'd assume that the image of the archer invokes a medieval vision of one who is far from where the real danger and bloodshed is. A group comprised of those not physically sufficient to have been in the infantry and vanguard swinging heavy swords, weighted down with heavy plate metal armor/mail and a heavy shield for an extended period of time. Thus, the imagery of a physically weaker person is created. Few and far between have there ever been archers that were also portrayed as physical specimen. Outside of god mythology and comic books, anyway.

Yes, the bow pull requires strength...but not the kind of strength compared to that required to wield a sword and armor in an extended battle. Naturally, because in real life much more often than not women are physically weaker than men, women are more often going to be portrayed with range weaponry. That is not limited to bows and arrows, though it may be for entertainment television. This can also mean small glaives, shurikens, and now lower-caliber handguns (or otherwise, low recoil weapons).

As for CQ weapons, women are often portrayed as the gender much more proficient in stealth, wielding daggers, rapiers, sai's and short swords.

At least, that's my take on it. Conjecture, nothing more.

What specifically is difficult for a women physically to fight with a sword?

Pick up a 5lbs medieval war sword and swing it as if to hit something 20 times. feel that fatigue setting in? extrapolate that and consider how long an average sword battle would have lasted, attacking and defending strikes from very big, very strong men.

 

[H.Protagonist]

I want to watch a movie about Soviet female snipers.

I would watch this movie.

I really wish more actresses would bulk up the way she did for Blade and Stealth. Unfortunetely, I think she took some flak for looking too masculine, and I don't know if it hurt her film and modeling prospects, but it really does go a long way in making the character more believable. Would probably give directors a little more flexibility in fights too where a man knocking the shit out of a petite woman is guaranteed to draw criticism.

Seriously? I loved the way she looked! She was bad ass and believable. It's hard for me to take 'action' stars like Zoe Saldana (though I like her) seriously because she looks like such a twig. Highly prefer Jessica B types bulked up appropriately.

What specifically is difficult for a women physically to fight with a sword?

I'm not saying your completely wrong about this you might know something about real sword fighting because I dont, but if a man and woman trained equally to use sword and shield and trained to wear fitted armor. How would a mans strength give him an advantage?

Quickly googling sword fighting everything we see on modern media is false, it seems like strength meant little and it was more about movement/dexterity/leverage and experience. Like most martial arts sword fighting is about striking with efficiency and effectiveness.

I can't speak for other women, because there are plenty who can kick ass with a sword and are a lot hardier, but smaller frame tends to lend to really thin wrists which aren't great for using swords. The only time I gave it a proper go with one I sprained my right wrist pretty badly. This could all also boil down to relative inexperience, but my tiny wrists were definitely a factor in me choosing other weapons. That said, media portrayals of women shouldn't always be with the 'safer' weapons. That's the real problem.

 

[Platy]

Pick up a 5lbs medieval war sword and swing it as if to hit something 20 times. feel that fatigue setting in? extrapolate that and consider how long an average sword battle would have lasted, attacking and defending strikes from very big, very strong men.

Actualy in real life 1x1 sword battles lasts for a few seconds

 

[lastplayed]

Aragorn uses whatever.

 

[lastplayed]

Pick up a 5lbs medieval war sword and swing it as if to hit something 20 times. feel that fatigue setting in? extrapolate that and consider how long an average sword battle would have lasted, attacking and defending strikes from very big, very strong men.

I think the rules of women in medieval society played more of a role than actual sword weight.

 

[Escape Goat]

Aragorn uses whatever.

He is a Ranger. His AGI and DEX have high modifiers.

 

[Zoe]

Seriously?

I think she looked absolutely fantastic.

I loved her hair in the movie lol), but I thought all the muscles were gross.

 

[More Fun To Compute]

The draw weight on a bow made for military purposes is a lot more than a hunting bow. In terms of actual fighting people the Amazons are said to have used Javelins instead, and I think then they were mounted.

And although the popular image for archers in war might be someone hiding in the shadows or safe at the back that is not reality. They would have been at front at the start of the fighting exchanging fire with enemy archers. They might be mixed in with spearmen or pikes so they could keep on firing but from behind into the backs of their allies would not have made them popular. In some military doctrines archers would have been the most disposable soldiers from the lowest social orders who were just used to buy time to allow the quality infantry to get a superior position.

 

[H.Protagonist]

I loved her hair in the movie lol), but I thought all the muscles were gross.

She wasn't that muscle-bound. Did it really look weird?

 

[Ducarmel]

Pick up a 5lbs medieval war sword and swing it as if to hit something 20 times. feel that fatigue setting in? extrapolate that and consider how long an average sword battle would have lasted, attacking and defending strikes from very big, very strong men.

In that very post you quoted I also said they trained with heavier practice swords so that when they used there combat weapon it felt like nothing. And like another poster pointed it out already one on one fights are not these epic 20 minute sword battles you see in the movies

Also are you speaking with some authority because John Clements a sword expert would prove striking with extreme force because you believe someone is weaker is very silly, watch some youtube videos these guys just slide/shift away from power strikes and counter like it was nothing. Again from what I'm reading real sword fighting relied on constant movement, dexterity and leverage.

I can't speak for other women, because there are plenty who can kick ass with a sword and are a lot hardier, but smaller frame tends to lend to really thin wrists which aren't great for using swords. The only time I gave it a proper go with one I sprained my right wrist pretty badly. This could all also boil down to relative inexperience, but my tiny wrists were definitely a factor in me choosing other weapons. That said, media portrayals of women shouldn't always be with the 'safer' weapons. That's the real problem.

Wrists can be built to be stronger but easier said then done. As for the bolded, was this a class or just goofing around with friends?

 

[DY_nasty]

Biel looked amazing - and believable in her handling of a bow. Actually looked built for it.

I loved her hair in the movie lol), but I thought all the muscles were gross.

ur mom

 

[Zoe]

She wasn't that muscle-bound. Did it really look weird?

I know hardcore fitness instructors who aren't even that ripped.

 

[Jack Scofield]

I never saw Lord of the Rings but wasn't there a hot girl archer in those too?

 

[Escape Goat]

I never saw Lord of the Rings but wasn't there a hot girl archer in those too?

Legolas joke has been made a few times already.

 

[lastplayed]

He is a Ranger. His AGI and DEX have high modifiers.

Does that mean he re-rolled two-handed for ROTK? Or can rangers just use them?

 

[fizzelopeguss]

it's a weapon of elegance.

 

[Jack Scofield]

Legolas joke has been made a few times already.

GODAMMIT.

 

[Escape Goat]

Does that mean he re-rolled two-handed for ROTK? Or can rangers just use them?

He can wield them he just isn't as effective at them. You'll recall we saw a wizard also with a sword but it comes with a negative hit to magic attribute.

 

[The Anti-Monitor]

He is a Ranger. His AGI and DEX have high modifiers.

He was also the only one even remotely optimized.

She wasn't that muscle-bound. Did it really look weird?

If weird is hot as hell, yeah. Pretty and ripped? Omg yes.

That's how female action stars should look like if they want to be somewhat believable. Jessica Biel should have a lot more roles where she can show off her build.

Does that mean he re-rolled two-handed for ROTK? Or can rangers just use them?

It's a greatsword, so he has proficiency. And Anduril is an epic weapon.

 

[Slayven]

I wonder how ranged weapon users would fare against Harry potter characters.

Plus

 

[H.Protagonist]

Wrists can be built to be stronger but easier said then done. As for the bolded, was this a class or just goofing around with friends?

I thought as much, but I still seem disposed towards having weak wrists related to my size or body type. The sword thing wasn't a class, but it was with a friend who took classes. Probably a combo of inexperience and the wrists. My Aikido instructor even tried to be extra careful with me, but he still managed to crack one. :/

I know hardcore fitness instructors who aren't even that ripped.

Her biceps are pretty mighty. ^_^;

 

[Replicant]

 

[Lucky Forward]

Don't forget Inara and her CGI bow in Serenity.

 

[Sibylus]

I think it's the weapon of choice for women in fiction because archery has attracted a veneer of inferiority (or even contemptibility) in ancient Greek and to a lesser extent Roman traditions, it's a prejudice that may have survived in the collective cultural memory. Hand-to-hand combat was the hallmark of true warriors, to them went the greatest of the accolades, whereas archers were tolerated or outright scorned:

The Iliad (Homer):

Diomedes all undaunted answered, "Archer, you who without your bow are nothing, slanderer and seducer, if you were to be tried in single combat fighting in full armor, your bow and your arrows would serve you in little stead. Vain is your boast in that you have scratched the sole of my foot. I care no more than if a girl or some silly boy had hit me. A worthless coward can inflict but a light wound; when I wound a man though I but graze his skin it is another matter, for my weapon will lay him low.

His wife will tear her cheeks for grief and his children will be fatherless: there will he rot, reddening the earth with his blood, and vultures, not women, will gather round him."

http://perseus.uchicago.edu/perseus...name=GreekTexts&query=Hom. Il. 11.400&getid=1


Heracles (Euripides):

After all, what was the fine exploit thy husband achieved, if he did kil a hydra in a marsh or that monster of Nemea? which he caught in a snare, for all he says he strangled it to death in his arms. Are these your weapons for the hard struggle? Is it for this then that Heracles' children should be spared? a man who has won a reputation for valour in his contests with beasts, in all else a weakling; who ne'er buckled shield to arm nor faced the spear, but with a bow, that coward's weapon, was ever ready to run away. Archery is no test of manly bravery; no! he is a man who keeps his post in the ranks and steadily faces the swift wound the spear may plough. My policy, again, old man, shows no reckless cruelty, but caution; for I am well aware I slew Creon, the father of Megara, and am in possession of his throne. So I have no wish that these children should grow up and be left to take vengeance on me in requital for what I have done.

http://classics.mit.edu/Euripides/heracles.html


Ajax (Sophocles)

Menelaus
The bowman seems to feel no little grandeur.

Teucer
I do, since it is no lowly skill that I possess.

Menelaus
How you would boast, if you had a shield!

Teucer
Even without a shield I would be a match for you fully armed.

Menelaus
What a tongue you have! What dreadful anger it feeds!

http://www.perseus.tufts.edu/hopper/text?doc=Perseus:abo:tlg,0011,003:1137&lang=original

As a weapon in war the bow was of course indispensable, and required great skill and strength to use, but there was no shortage of peculiar attitudes about it. I always got the impression that the Greeks and Romans employed it in war almost begrudgingly, aware of its power but still unwilling to honor it in the same ways as the beloved sword, spear, and shield. It was the weapon of their auxiliaries and lesser infantry, but less so their heroes and great men.

 

[shanshan310]

Because women can do just as well as a man with a bow. Hand to hand weapons would rely more on physical strength?

Have you ever used a bow and arrow? You need a shit ton of upper body strength to fire one.

 

[DY_nasty]

If weird is hot as hell, yeah. Pretty and ripped? Omg yes.

That's how female action stars should look like if they want to be somewhat believable. Jessica Biel should have a lot more roles where she can show off her build.

I love the typical, gorgeous hollywood actress as much as the next hot blooded man, but for action movies in particular... casting directors needs to stop being so afraid of having a woman on camera that actually looks like she can put weight behind a punch. I love Zoe Saldana - but all these action roles? come the fuck on. I know it seems like a stretch, but there have to be more women out there that are gorgeous and *gasp* look like they could actually carry the weapons they're holding.

Have you ever used a bow and arrow? You need a shit ton of upper body strength to fire one.

Preach. RPGs give out a completely wrong impression... Its not some dainty, elegant, finesse heavy weapon at all.

 

[Devolution]

I know hardcore fitness instructors who aren't even that ripped.

Fit isn't necessarily synonymous with strong you know.

 

[Slayven]

The all pink squad was a hell of a firing squad.

 

[A.E Suggs]

Also are you speaking with some authority because John Clements a sword expert would prove this to be very silly assumption, watch some youtube videos these guys just slide/shift away from power strikes and counter like it was nothing. Again from what I'm reading real sword fighting relied on constant movement, dexterity and leverage.

Those were still people of equal build and still guys vs guys so it would come down to skill in the end. Also when I say strength i'm not talking just the power of the arms but the overall strength of the body which muscle mass does help with. Again though its not that females can't do it its just their peak physical abilities are lower than a males at their average builds.

If both fighters have everything as far as skill then other factors that someone would have would have to come into play to decide a victor. So in this case if it was male vs female if the female isn't as strong and they are both at equal skill then the female is more likely to lose out on deflection or a forced power struggle with a blade. Also in any fight size plays a role as well.

 

[Kitsunebaby]

I loved her hair in the movie lol), but I thought all the muscles were gross.

I find muscles on a woman sooo sexy. I kind of have a muscle fetish in general, though.

 

[Zoe]

Fit isn't necessarily synonymous with strong you know.

Did I say that?

 

[The Anti-Monitor]

I find muscles on a woman sooo sexy. I kind of have a muscle fetish in general, though.

Yeah.

I mean, Jessica Biel is pretty and has a very nice shape, but she stands out because of those biceps and shoulders and stuff. I find that insanely hot.

Plus, as DY said, she looks like she could actually use that bow.

 

[H.Protagonist]

Have you ever used a bow and arrow? You need a shit ton of upper body strength to fire one.

C'mon, Shan. Depending on the bow/draw weight it's not that hard. Just takes a bit of practice and a little muscle. They do seem to have a lot of noodley-armed women using them on TV, though.

If weird is hot as hell, yeah. Pretty and ripped? Omg yes.

That's how female action stars should look like if they want to be somewhat believable. Jessica Biel should have a lot more roles where she can show off her build.

Agreed. I really liked the look and wish it was more common in shows.

Those were still people of equal build and still guys vs guys so it would come down to skill in the end. Also when I say strength i'm not talking just the power of the arms but the overall strength of the body which muscle mass does help with. Again though its not that females can't do it its just their peak physical abilities are lower than a males at their average builds.

If both fighters have everything as far as skill then other factors that someone would have would have to come into play to decide a victor. So in this case if it was male vs female if the female isn't as strong and they are both at equal skill then the female is more likely to lose out on deflection or a forced power struggle with a blade. Also in any fight size plays a role as well.

Brienne of Tarth would like a word with you, A.E.

EDIT: Misread yours. Brienne is still worth a nod, though.

 

[VALIS]

Women are often portrayed as being more in tune with nature, more graceful and more stylish. Men are often portrayed as brutes who smash and destroy things. The bow comes off as more elegant and less destructive than a sword or a gun.

 

[Rorschach]

Dude, modern media is so sexist!

 

[A.E Suggs]

C'mon, Shan. Depending on the bow/draw weight it's not that hard. Just takes a bit of practice and a little muscle. They do seem to have a lot of noodley-armed women using them on TV, though.




Agreed. I really liked the look and wish it was more common in shows.




Brienne of Tarth would like a word with you, A.E.

Edit: Naw leave it there maybe someone who doesn't know her will know her now.

 

[Raonak]

Women with bows look hotter.

It also allows smaller figured people to kill bigger bad guys without seem it seeming jarring.

 

[Ducarmel]

Those were still people of equal build and still guys vs guys so it would come down to skill in the end. Also when I say strength i'm not talking just the power of the arms but the overall strength of the body which muscle mass does help with. Again though its not that females can't do it its just their peak physical abilities are lower than a males at their average builds.

If both fighters have everything as far as skill then other factors that someone would have would have to come into play to decide a victor. So in this case if it was male vs female if the female isn't as strong and they are both at equal skill then the female is more likely to lose out on deflection or a forced power struggle with a blade. Also in any fight size plays a role as well.

Its true male bodies overall have more muscle mass then women. I am just focusing on a women relying on dexterity and leverage. I assume women in general or more dexterous with their bodies then men, as for leverage the classic definition in physical terms is using a fraction of strength needed to move an object. Leverage does favor the stronger opponent if he have the leverage but a weaker opponent can have the leverage and wont be at a disadvantage because they are weak so it does level they field a little bit when facing a stronger opponent.

What I'm saying these guys at full speed are not taking blows directly if at all, just a small shift of their hand/body position and they parry/dodge and are counter attacking immediately.

But reading more into the advance stuff there is actually grappling moves I guess if a women does not deliver a fatal cut within seconds a guy close enough to grab her will likely win, I assume the points of leverage diminishes if your opponent grabs you, probably need to be a judo expert on top of a swordsman to fight of a stronger person grappling you.