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[jgminto]

I'm firmly in the "I'll believe it when I see it" camp. Even if a giant metal container fell out of the sky and JC himself hopped out and rode away on a unicycle, I wouldn't expect anyone to believe me unless I could back it up.

 

[Net_Wrecker]

You psyched yourself out basically. I don't mean to sound rude but that's what it is.

I've seen stuff, been around events, and heard stories from people I trust 1,000,000% to the point that I don't discount what anyone says unless it's too far fetched or they're just crazy. Don't say someone "psyched himself out" unless you've had experience. IDK about crazy UFO stories, but there's definitely some weird stuff out there when it comes to "ghosts" or "spirits," whatever you want call them. Possession is also very real.

And I'm totally a "believe it when I see it" type of person as well. This isn't coming from blind faith.

 

[triplestation]

I wanna know who came up with the idea of a ghost.

I'm thinking it had something to do with a guy who didn't accept that death was the end and started telling people he saw someone who was already dead, walking around in the woods or something. And then other people got excited over it and started making up their own stories. Ghosts really are an intriguing idea.

I wonder what most scientists think of ghosts. You know what this thread needs? Scientific references. Opinions from qualified fucking scientists is what this thread needs. Do scientists even care?

 

[way more]

I've seen stuff, been around events, and heard stories from people I trust 1,000,000% to the point that I don't discount what anyone says unless it's too far fetched or they're just crazy. Don't say someone "psyched himself out" unless you've had experience. IDK about crazy UFO stories, but there's definitely some weird stuff out there when it comes to "ghosts" or "spirits," whatever you want call them. Possession is also very real.

And I'm totally a "believe it when I see it" type of person as well. This isn't coming from blind faith.

But we do have experience of people who have "psyched" themselves out in the studies and experiments proving the infallibility of memory and the way humans can falsely perceive events.

 

[krameriffic]

The natural world is way more beautiful and fascinating, complicated and esoteric than any fairies or ghosts or gods that human beings can conjure up with our imaginations.

To look at something that you can't explain and then call it supernatural is a contradiction. You're basically saying "I can't explain it, therefore I can explain it".

 

[squidyj]

I've seen stuff, been around events, and heard stories from people I trust 1,000,000% to the point that I don't discount what anyone says unless it's too far fetched or they're just crazy. Don't say someone "psyched himself out" unless you've had experience. IDK about crazy UFO stories, but there's definitely some weird stuff out there when it comes to "ghosts" or "spirits," whatever you want call them. Possession is also very real.

And I'm totally a "believe it when I see it" type of person as well. This isn't coming from blind faith.

how about this, i'll see it when I believe it. ever heard of that? Don't act skeptical unless you've had bizarre experiences is also a ridiculous line of thought I might add.

 

[clearacell]

What happened?

When I was younger, living in another home, I used to have to sleep in the living room which usually had the front door open. For a long time, nothing happened. Then randomly one day, a voice started whispering "Ha hi....ha hi". This went on continuously, every little while. I would tell my mom about it, my dad....they explained that across the street the neighbors had birds and that was probably the noise. I never heard birds with a human whisper, but whatever. This went on for years.

About a week before we were moving out of that house, like normal I am trying to go to sleep, everyone else is asleep, and the voice goes again "Ha hi...ha hi". This time, however...it said "Ha hi...Ruben" (my real name)...I freak the fuck out, jumped up and ran to my parents room. For the rest of the week it would say "ha hi.." over and over, but then once in a while would throw in a "ha hi...Ruben" The only solution to this was that we moved out. No problems in the new house.

A few years later, there was this special on Fox about ghosts and there was a point where they had that white noise, as in recordings from a tape recorder that would pick up other strange noises...in one of the things they recorded, there was a whispering voice...sounded exactly like the voice I remember from my youth.

Now I have sleep paralysis, I see the black figure sometimes during it. I know what that is, I can explain what that is, I know why it's there. I still can't explain what happened to me back then.

You psyched yourself out basically. I don't mean to sound rude but that's what it is.

No, I'm pretty sure I didn't, basically.

 

[Net_Wrecker]

But we do have experience of people who have "psyched" themselves out in the studies and experiments proving the infallibility of memory and the way humans can falsely perceive events.

Yeah some people might've just been experiencing mental trickery, but some people are straight up telling the truth. I've been there and I know people who've been there. I don't blame you for remaining skeptical. There's really nothing I or anyone else can do to convince you. All I'm saying is I definitely have an open mind when it comes to some of this that comes from first hand experience.

how about this, i'll see it when I believe it. ever heard of that? Don't act skeptical unless you've had bizarre experiences is also a ridiculous line of thought I might add.

That's fine. Again, there's really nothing that will turn a skeptic short of hard evidence, and oftentimes that's not readily availible when talking about this stuff. I just think it's absurd to flat out call someone a liar, or say they "psyched themselves out" not knowing anything about the person or their experience.

 

[Loofy]

Family friend recently died. It was.. sudden.
Afterwards the neighbours started talking and told the family that the previous 3 home owners also had tragedies. 2 wives sudden deaths, and a daughter went missing. The house was cursed...

Maybe it isnt but Id still move out.

 

[Pimpwerx]

OP's friend is probably crazy. Voice of god? C'mon, son. Tell your friend to take his crazy pills.

Anyone that professes to hear voices that tell them to do things is probably missing a few screws. PEACE.

 

[iamblades]

I've seen stuff, been around events, and heard stories from people I trust 1,000,000% to the point that I don't discount what anyone says unless it's too far fetched or they're just crazy. Don't say someone "psyched himself out" unless you've had experience. IDK about crazy UFO stories, but there's definitely some weird stuff out there when it comes to "ghosts" or "spirits," whatever you want call them. Possession is also very real.

And I'm totally a "believe it when I see it" type of person as well. This isn't coming from blind faith.

These two things are completely contradictory given what we know about the human brain and sensory perception. That's just talking about describing what you just saw, not even talking about the frailty of memory and how memories can be completely fictitious and seem 100% real.

Bottom line, the evidence needed to support a claim is proportional to the size of the claim. Science doesn't need to go around disproving every spooky thing that someone saw and claims is supernatural(though that has happened thousands of times, and never once has the opposite happened), it is the person making the claim that needs to provide the evidence. Eyewitness accounts are completely 100% worthless.

Yeah some people might've just been experiencing mental trickery, but some people are straight up telling the truth. I've been there and I know people who've been there. I don't blame you for remaining skeptical. There's really nothing I or anyone else can do to convince you. All I'm saying is I definitely have an open mind when it comes to some of this.


That's fine. Again, there's really nothing that will turn a skeptic short of hard evidence, and oftentimes that's not readily availible when talking about this stuff. I just think it's absurd to flat out call someone a liar, or say they "psyched themselves out" not knowing anything about the person or their experience.

Saying that someone's version of events is inaccurate or that human memory is notoriously shitty is not 'calling someone a liar', it's being honest about the limits of human perception. I don't blame someone who honestly believes they saw something, I'm just saying it doesn't mean anything, and certainly doesn't prove anything. It's worthless evidence from a scientific point of view, tainted by cognitive bias and the fact that memory is an active process not a passive process. Every time you remember something your brain is subtly altering the memory to try and make sense of it, until it does not resemble the actual event at all.

 

[Pimpwerx]

I find myself to be of a very scientific mind...

I've had ghost experiences in my life. No lies, no jokes.

The mind can trick you into seeing things easily. My mom swears she's seen ghosts. It's all bullshit. Try some psychadelics something and you'll understand how powerful the mind is.

I've had spatial distortion on shrooms and acid before. I imagined myself walking over to some chicks at a bar and having a long and enjoyable conversation. Next thing you know, I'm sitting back at the bar with my beer still untouched. I asked my friend if I'd just gone over to talk to those girls, and he said no...then looked at me funny. Maybe he looked at me funny because he was also tripping. Anyway, I decided I had to go home at that point, lest something really crazy happens.

Most of the time people see things, it's not in their direct line of sight. They're usually in your periphery. Your mind can trick you into thinking things are there that aren't.

Anyone that thinks there's anything supernatural in this world should just ask themselves why it's not on Youtube already. I'd believe in Sasquatch or UFOs before anything supernatural. And those are always obvious hoaxes. PEACE.

 

[Endo Punk]

I would love to have supernatural experience, shame it always happens to people with mental issues. Maybe the ghosts only show themselves to such people because they know nobody will believe them, lol.

 

[Log4Girlz]

I don't understand that argument.

If someone tells you that they were going about their normal business and witnessed something they believe to be supernatural, why would your explanatory comment begin with, "People who do drugs see shit that isn't there"? Obviously if the guy had been high on acid or PCP, he wouldn't be telling you about what he saw.

The brain can be influenced by many things. Perhaps a supernatural sighting, say a ghost could be explained by something the witness ate, like an undigested bit of beef, a blot of mustard, a crumb of cheese, a fragment of underdone potato.

 

[clearacell]

I would love to have supernatural experience, shame it always happens to people with mental issues. Maybe the ghosts only show themselves to such people because they know nobody will believe them, lol.

And UFO's only appear to people in the Air Force

 

[Mario]

Is it possible I have been wrong about there being no deities, no supernatural powers? Is there some scientific explanation for how something like this could possibly occur? Are there any scientific books on this type of phenomena?

Humans are incredibly fallible beings. We have eyesight and hearing that is constantly "filling in the blanks", a predisposition to presuming assigning sentience at the drop of a hat, overactive pattern matching skills, suffer from confirmation bias, have a subconscious we aren't actively aware of, and revisionist memories amongst other limitations while simultaneously suffering from the social "afflictions" like needing to belong, indoctrination, cultural bias and predisposition, not wanting to be "wrong", tendencies to lie or exaggerate or otherwise embellish, and finding the answer "I don't know" unacceptable.

It is very easy when encountering the strange or unknown to inadequately assess the situation, then remember it accurately, then communicate the event accurately to others. The human body is prone to user error every step of the way.

But these were, literally, precognitions.

Really, they aren't. At all.

Let's break it down.

Your friend is having a crisis of faith. He wants to belong, but he feels he doesn't. He wants a sign.

While immersed in Bible study (presumably feeling vulnerable), he discusses this, and an acquaintance gives him the opportunity to validate his faith by framing some loosely defined possible occurrence as a "prophecy".

How is it not unusual to be told you will encounter a specific person at a grocery store the next time you go, and then it happens?

He was told that he would have a "conversation" with a girl in a turquoise shirt in a location where there are a lot of people wearing a variety of clothing and the majority of them will be female.

The "voice" gave him a general direction, after he saw no such woman initially, and then when finding a "match", he was the one who started the "conversation". A conversation which basically consisted only of what was more or less "Hey, God told me to talk to you", barely qualifying as a "conversation" at all.

There is no profound outcome from this interaction.

And to then have a voice in your head tell you to go talk to a chinese man at a Laundromat, and he's there?

The "voice" then told him to go into a location where there will be lots of people and to proactively do something to an asian man, "asian" being an incredibly broad description which covers a quarter of the population of the planet or more. And then, when finding a "match" he undertook the action which basically consisted only of what was more or less "Hey, God told me to give you this".

There is no profound outcome from this interaction.

And immediately after that to go to wendy's and talk to a woman with two kids, who, again, is there when you go?

The "voice" then told him to go into a location where there will be lots of people and to proactively do something to a woman with two children, a common configuration for patrons of a fast food joint. And then, upon NOT finding a "match", the "voice" said "er, yeah, just wait a bit and I'm sure they will be here". And then, when finding a "match" he undertook the action which basically consisted only of what was more or less "Hey, God told me to talk to you" and gifting the food (your friend was freestyling at this point).

There is no profound outcome from this interaction.

He knew these people were going to be there before he went in and actually saw them with his own eyes.

He had generalised descriptions of people that he went looking for in high traffic locations with no specifics of what interactions with these people would entail and allowed himself to keep evolving the situation until he met someone that matched that generalised description. All of these interactions are shallow. And none of these interactions resulted in any meaningful or profound outcomes. That's even if he is describing events accurately.

They would barely qualify as coincidences, even if he wasn't stacking the odds.

IMO he wanted to feel God, so he subconsciously put himself into situations which his conscious mind could ascribe to the divine.

That's very unusual to me

I think you need to shift your criteria for what you consider unusual.

If the guy who prayed over him had said he would go to a grocery store he had never been to before at 2.30pm on a Wednesday and, upon arriving at the end of the spice aisle, come across an asian mother with two kids wearing a turquoise shirt who at that moment spilled grape juice over herself destroying the laundry ticket she had in her pocket and after helping her she would give him her lifelong free daily value meal card for Wendys and become good friends over a series of shared burger meals, and THAT had then come to pass, then that would be both a worthy premonition, meaningful and unusual. Assuming it wasn't staged.

 

[Pimpwerx]

What if "you" are not the organization of atoms, molecules, cells, etc, that makes up a body?

What if "you" are the organizational principle that arranged those building blocks?

In which case you would continue even after the dissolution of the body (though the personality, memories, etc, would all die along with it).

I don't assume that, of course, but there are ways to imagine "life" continuing after death, even if we accept that mind is the consequence of brains, there are no such things as "spirits", etc.

Just musing..

Where's the "you" when you're unconscious? When you're unconscious, you lose that period of time. No reason to expect any different when you die. PEACE.

 

[GrizzNKev]

I... I just want to laugh. The OP story and some of the others in this thread. Oh wow.

 

[Uchip]

lies or psychosis
or theyre just genuinely stupid

 

[Log4Girlz]

Guys, the other day I saw Santa Claus flying across the skies. Amazing. I wanted to share that with you all, it was such a beautiful experience. How do you explain that?

 

[railGUN]

Guys, the other day I saw Santa Claus flying across the skies. Amazing. I wanted to share that with you all, it was such a beautiful experience. How do you explain that?

http://m.youtube.com/watch?v=-SKt_NtIcWE

 

[Transhuman]

He is a devout Christian.

During the course of this prayer the friend “prophesizes” that my friend will meet a girl in a turquoise shirt the next time he goes to the supermarket, and that he is to have a conversation with her. My friend thought that it was really stupid and that the dude making the prophecy was full of shit, so he didn’t think much of it.

A week later he’s relaxing in his dorm room, when he’s overcome with a very strong urge to go to the grocery store. He said he felt like it was God

...He walked by the isle, and the only person there was an employee in a jacket with an apron on. He decided he was crazy so went and got some more groceries. As he passed the isle again he glanced over just as the worker took off her apron and jacket, revealing a turquoise shirt underneath. He worked up the courage to talk to her and went up and asked if she needed prayer and told her that he felt like God told him to go talk to her. She thought he was crazy and wanted nothing to do with him, so he finished getting his groceries and left.

On the way back, he heard the voice telling him to stop in a laundry mat, because there was going to be a Chinese man in there and that he should go in and offer this man a carton of grape juice that he had just bought at the store. He goes in, and sure enough, there is a Chinese man. But he offers the man the juice, and again, the man wanted nothing to do with him. He thought he was crazy and told him to leave.

He again got in the car to head back to his dorm, and again heard the voice in his head, this time telling him to go to Wendy’s and talk to a woman with two children there. He went to Wendy’s but there was no woman with kids in the store so he turned around to leave… but then the voice told him to go up and order a meal. He wasn’t hungry, but he did it anyway. As he was walking towards the exit, a woman with two kids emerged from the bathroom. He went up and asked if they wanted his meal, and the woman started crying. She told him that she barely had enough money to buy food for her kids, and couldn’t believe that a stranger had just given her free food.

Is there some scientific explanation for how something like this could possibly occur? Are there any scientific books on this type of phenomena?

This reeks of the kind of story Christians might tell people to try to sell them on their beliefs. So much deconstruction could be done on that story. Especially the fact that he fails twice before the final successful result. Goldilocks and the Three Bears much?

I would love to have supernatural experience, shame it always happens to people with mental issues. Maybe the ghosts only show themselves to such people because they know nobody will believe them, lol.

Mental issues + no image capturing devices + proclivity to tell people about the amazing supernatural thing that happened to them.

 

[Net_Wrecker]

Saying that someone's version of events is inaccurate or that human memory is notoriously shitty is not 'calling someone a liar', it's being honest about the limits of human perception. I don't blame someone who honestly believes they saw something, I'm just saying it doesn't mean anything, and certainly doesn't prove anything. It's worthless evidence from a scientific point of view, tainted by cognitive bias and the fact that memory is an active process not a passive process. Every time you remember something your brain is subtly altering the memory to try and make sense of it, until it does not resemble the actual event at all.

So where do you fall on the topic of possession? There's video evidence of such events and books about it, I'm sure. Why is this never brought up?

 

[Freezie KO]

Guys, the other day I saw Santa Claus flying across the skies. Amazing. I wanted to share that with you all, it was such a beautiful experience. How do you explain that?

You don't think he needs prep for Christmas? Do you think he buys all the presents the night before?

 

[SquiddyCracker]

Cognitive biases and outright lies.

 

[Order]

I will never forget the night me and my brothers were driving to the movies, and right in front of us was a glowing red motorcycle just lying in the middle of tge expressway. Our car just passed through the motorcycle and when we looked bebind us, it was still there. Creepy stuff.

 

[iamblades]

So where do you fall on the topic of possession? There's video evidence of such events and books about it, I'm sure. Why is this never brought up?

Mostly it's just an archaic explanation for mental illness with some culturally learned behavior traits thrown in for good measure..

 

[Pimpwerx]

So where do you fall on the topic of possession? There's video evidence of such events and books about it, I'm sure. Why is this never brought up?

[Chris Rock]Whatever happened to crazy? What happened to crazy? What, you can't be crazy no more? Did we eliminate "crazy" from the dictionary?[/Chris Rock]

 

[Net_Wrecker]

Mostly it's just an archaic explanation for mental illness with some culturally learned behavior traits thrown in for good measure..

If possession were an actual thing, there would be evidence of it. What there is evidence of, however, people treating mental illness and even epilepsy as possession, and doing full on exorcisms that damage and even kill people.

So what do you say if I told you I've seen it happen, purposely and at random, to completely normal people? I've seen it multiple times, I was completely clear headed, not under stress, not having a panic attack, not recalling something from memory that my mind has twisted, and not dreaming. You probably don't believe me or think that I'm crazy, whatever, but what if you were to see it happen right in front of you? Would your thoughts on the subject change, or would you still think those people were mentally ill, or were having seizures? Keep in mind that I KNOW these people, and have for years, and can say with 100% certainty that there's absolutely NOTHING wrong with them mentally or physically.

 

[railGUN]

So what do you say if I told you I've seen it happen, purposely and at random, to completely normal people? I've seen it multiple times, I was completely clear headed, not under stress, not having a panic attack, not recalling something from memory that my mind has twisted, and not dreaming. You probably don't believe me or think that I'm crazy, whatever, but what if you were to see it happen right in front of you? Would your thoughts on the subject change, or would you still think those people were mentally ill, or were having seizures? Keep in mind that I KNOW these people, and have for years, and can say with 100% certainty that there's absolutely NOTHING wrong with them mentally or physically.

Honestly, I still wouldn't believe you, or rather, that possession is real (you may truly believe it but that doesn't make it real).

 

[BocoDragon]

Honestly, I still wouldn't believe you, or rather, that possession is real (you may truly believe it but that doesn't make it real).

I wouldn't believe it either.

But let's be honest... that is being closed minded.

If we were really being fair, we'd be agnostic until that phenomenon was carefully studied.

 

[SquiddyCracker]

So what do you say if I told you I've seen it happen, purposely and at random, to completely normal people? I've seen it multiple times, I was completely clear headed, not under stress, not having a panic attack, not recalling something from memory that my mind has twisted, and not dreaming. You probably don't believe me or think that I'm crazy, whatever, but what if you were to see it happen right in front of you? Would your thoughts on the subject change, or would you still think those people were mentally ill, or were having seizures? Keep in mind that I KNOW these people, and have for years, and can say with 100% certainty that there's absolutely NOTHING wrong with them mentally or physically.

You and/or they have experienced various cognitive biases.
It might sound dismissive, but this always turns out to be the case and I very much doubt you are any different.

Had you any objective evidence to offer up I'd be more inclined to believe you though, but anecdotes juts doesn't do it when the human mind is so prone to misinterpreting reality on a constant basis.

 

[Pimpwerx]

So what do you say if I told you I've seen it happen, purposely and at random, to completely normal people? I've seen it multiple times, I was completely clear headed, not under stress, not having a panic attack, not recalling something from memory that my mind has twisted, and not dreaming. You probably don't believe me or think that I'm crazy, whatever, but what if you were to see it happen right in front of you? Would your thoughts on the subject change, or would you still think those people were mentally ill, or were having seizures? Keep in mind that I KNOW these people, and have for years, and can say with 100% certainty that there's absolutely NOTHING wrong with them mentally or physically.

For the length of their "possessed" episode, they were crazy. It could be that they're schyzophrenic. My ex was bipolar and later diagnosed as schyzo. She'd act possessed sometimes. She was just crazy...very crazy. She'd get these wild and violent fits where she'd hit herself and start saying crazy shit. Most of the episodes in this thread can be explained as people being crazy. Tough pill to swallow when it's someone you care about. PEACE.

 

[yogloo]

I don't understand that argument.

If someone tells you that they were going about their normal business and witnessed something they believe to be supernatural, why would your explanatory comment begin with, "People who do drugs see shit that isn't there"? Obviously if the guy had been high on acid or PCP, he wouldn't be telling you about what he saw.

We tend to believe things that we see or hear, but our perceptions can be easily fooled. People who has tried hallucinogen tend to understand this more.
Here is something simple on how our mind can be easily fooled. The McGurk effect.
http://www.npr.org/blogs/krulwich/2011/09/23/140704746/whats-he-saying-bahh-or-fahh-a-brain-mystery
It works on us no matter how alert you are.
Sometimes our mind brain just draw the wrong conclusion when we are overloaded by informations. That's where most of the supernatural experiences come from. People who don't understand that will attribute that to ghost or god.

 

[Karsticles]

Dissociation from your own thought is common among psychotics. I suggest that your friend would benefit from professional help. "The thought came from a place other than myself" is not a healthy mentality. Everything comes from you.

 

[BocoDragon]

Where's the "you" when you're unconscious? When you're unconscious, you lose that period of time. No reason to expect any different when you die. PEACE.

Seems to me that you are there when unconscious. Your brain is still active.... whether you remember it or not.

But I've also heard the analogy of "what was your life like before you were born", so I get your example.

Yes, of course I can imagine what not existing might be like. I've been a card-carrying athiest for many years, so I know what it's like to make the assumption "there's nothing. Our consiousness is a byproduct of brain function".

But I'm saying, what IF consciousness is primary to the universe? "try on that hat". We can explain it as byproduct of brain function ... but that is an assumption. Try the other assumption for awhile, just for fun. What if that sense of surprise that we are trapped in this body is a clue as to the true nature of consciousness?

 

[Clevinger]

So what do you say if I told you I've seen it happen, purposely and at random, to completely normal people? I've seen it multiple times, I was completely clear headed, not under stress, not having a panic attack, not recalling something from memory that my mind has twisted, and not dreaming. You probably don't believe me or think that I'm crazy, whatever, but what if you were to see it happen right in front of you? Would your thoughts on the subject change, or would you still think those people were mentally ill, or were having seizures? Keep in mind that I KNOW these people, and have for years, and can say with 100% certainty that there's absolutely NOTHING wrong with them mentally or physically.

I believe you saw what you think you saw. But I don't necessarily believe those people are mentally normal. My friend was completely normal until he started sometimes hearing voices, thinking he was god, and other crazy things, and was diagnosed with schizophrenia.

 

[yogloo]

Simple visual tricks can also show that our sight is not really dependable. Tons of those trick in youtube.

 

[Freezie KO]

We can explain it as byproduct of brain function ... but that is an assumption.

How is it an assumption when we can measure brain activity, consciousness, brain death, etc.?

 

[BocoDragon]

Will it bring me into greater harmony with the organizing principle of the universe?



continued self delusion. What need has the spark of the brain in that scenario? Why not merely operate thought and consciousness out of spark essence? if that's possible then why not? if it's not possible then you're qualifying the limitations of the spark consciousness and I'm pretty sure it can be qualified all the way back to being a completely useless thing unnecessary in it's own existence, utterly devoid of use or meaning.

"Self delusion" is a funny thing to say to someone who is clearly talking in terms of "what if?"

But the answer might be that formless spirit doesn't "think". Brains think. A human might be a way for the universe to crunch thoughts (like an abacus?), be "divided" into some object that perceives itself as separate.... so that experiences can be had. A formless void is not interesting, so it is divided into "things" that can play against each other and thus create interesting drama.

As I said in the first post, just musing.

 

[SquiddyCracker]

Seems to me that you are there when unconscious. Your brain is still active.... whether you remember it or not.

But I've also heard the analogy of "what was your life like before you were born", so I get your example.

Yes, of course I can imagine what not existing might be like. I've been a card-carrying athiest for many years, so I know what it's like to make the assumption "there's nothing. Our consiousness is a byproduct of brain function".

But I'm saying, what IF consciousness is primary to the universe? "try on that hat". We can explain it as byproduct of brain function ... but that is an assumption. Try the other assumption for awhile, just for fun. What if that sense of surprise that we are trapped in this body is a clue as to the true nature of consciousness?

I'd say that someone is wishing for consciousness (or self-awareness really) to not be a temporary and frail thing
I want to exist beyond death, so I see the appeal of the idea that consciousness exist first and the brain is a way for it to experience stuff through our bodies.

On the other hand, I realize that I have a lot to gain from this being true, and a lot to lose from viewing the brain primary and the consciousness secondary.
Personal experience, or I guess intuition, tells me that if something is too good to be true - it often is

 

[Net_Wrecker]

You and/or they have experienced various cognitive biases.
It might sound dismissive, but this always turns out to be the case and I very much doubt you are any different.

Had you any objective evidence to offer up I'd be more inclined to believe you though, but anecdotes juts doesn't do it when the human mind is so prone to misinterpreting reality on a constant basis.

I get it, trust me, and in your shoes I'd take the same stance. I'm just legitimately curious what you guys think because I've never really had this conversation before. I have no proof because I stay away and don't actually participate in any of it, but it's something I've seen A LOT of and am 100% convinced it's real and not some kind of temporary psychosis.

I believe you saw what you think you saw. But I don't necessarily believe those people are completely mentally normal. My friend was completely normal until he started sometimes hearing voices, thinking he was god, and other crazy things, and was diagnosed with schizophrenia.

These are people who live completely normal lives otherwise that have seen doctors and come away with totally clean bills of health. It's not sudden bursts of uncontrollable crazy either, it's very controlled situations where they literally get possessed ON PURPOSE, function under the control of *whatever* is it, then go back to normal and continue to live life. I COMPLETELY understand that you need more than just my word to go on, and that's fine, but I implore people to keep open minds about some of this stuff. This isn't something I saw once 20 years ago and forgot most of the details of.

 

[Clevinger]

These are people who live completely normal lives otherwise that have seen doctors and come away with totally clean bills of health. It's not sudden bursts of uncontrollable crazy either, it's very controlled situations where they literally get possessed ON PURPOSE, function under the control of *whatever* is it, then go back to normal and continue to live life. I COMPLETELY understand that you need more than just my word to go on, and that's fine, but I implore people to keep open minds about some of this stuff. This isn't something I saw once 20 years ago and forgot most of the details about.

So, are they witches or something? They summon a spirit to possess them? I'm not being snarky, I'm curious.

 

[way more]

Seems to me that you are there when unconscious. Your brain is still active.... whether you remember it or not.

But I've also heard the analogy of "what was your life like before you were born", so I get your example.

Yes, of course I can imagine what not existing might be like. I've been a card-carrying athiest for many years, so I know what it's like to make the assumption "there's nothing. Our consiousness is a byproduct of brain function".

But I'm saying, what IF consciousness is primary to the universe? "try on that hat". We can explain it as byproduct of brain function ... but that is an assumption. Try the other assumption for awhile, just for fun. What if that sense of surprise that we are trapped in this body is a clue as to the true nature of consciousness?

I try that hat on and I think, well, that would change nothing on this end. It would alter nothing of our understanding of our reality and all our past and current studies on the true nature of reality would still be as valid.

The only change would be your, "plus some consciousness" universe. As in, stars explode into supernova as their fuel runs out, 2 + 2 = 4, cells divide, humans create language, OH, and some thing about some world that doesn't effect us, can't be examined, reveals nothing about truth, and changes nothing.

What if we called cats "dogs" and dogs "cats." Think about it!

 

[BocoDragon]

How is it an assumption when we can measure brain activity, consciousness, brain death, etc.?

If you read the whole train of thought, that's accounted for:

What if "you" are not the organization of atoms, molecules, cells, etc, that makes up a body?

What if "you" are the organizational principle that arranged those building blocks?

In which case you would continue even after the dissolution of the body (though the personality, memories, etc, would all die along with it).

I don't assume that, of course, but there are ways to imagine "life" continuing after death, even if we accept that mind is the consequence of brains, there are no such things as "spirits", etc.

Just musing..

 

[Liberty4all]

I think there are things in the universe we just don't understand yet. Different levels of energy etc ...

I don't really judge anyone's crazy story after having my own experience (outlined in tongues thread).

I think alot of people that are close minded though to the point of intolerance. There are things in this world that defy rationale explanation (likely because we don't understand the science behind it). Doesn't make it "crazy" or untrue.

 

[Uchip]

but I'm definitely open to the idea that it could be some kind of being I'll meet when I die.

you cant meet anything when you are dead
giving that any plausibility denies everything we know about the brain
you can claim that we cant know everything, but when the odds are stacked near infinity to one against, theres no reason to give it benefit of the doubt

 

[railGUN]

I get it, trust me, and in your shoes I'd take the same stance. I'm just legitimately curious what you guys think because I've never really had this conversation before. I have no proof because I stay away and don't actually participate in any of it, but it's something I've seen A LOT of and am 100% convinced it's real and not some kind of temporary psychosis.



These are people who live completely normal lives otherwise that have seen doctors and come away with totally clean bills of health. It's not sudden bursts of uncontrollable crazy either, it's very controlled situations where they literally get possessed ON PURPOSE, function under the control of *whatever* is it, then go back to normal and continue to live life. I COMPLETELY understand that you need more than just my word to go on, and that's fine, but I implore people to keep open minds about some of this stuff. This isn't something I saw once 20 years ago and forgot most of the details of.

What do you mean "under the control of *whatever*"? Are they spirits? The dead? The devil?

 

[opticalmace]

I think there are things in the universe we just don't understand yet. Different levels of energy etc ...

I don't really judge anyone's crazy story after having my own experience (outlined in tongues thread).

I think alot of people that are close minded though to the point of intolerance. There are things in this world that defy rationale explanation (likely because we don't understand the science behind it). Doesn't make it "crazy" or untrue.

krameriffic posted a really good video about this issue: (from the string theory thread)

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=T69TOuqaqXI

 

[SquiddyCracker]

I think there are things in the universe we just don't understand yet. Different levels of energy etc ...

I don't really judge anyone's crazy story after having my own experience (outlined in tongues thread).

I think alot of people that are close minded though to the point of intolerance. There are things in this world that defy rationale explanation (likely because we don't understand the science behind it). Doesn't make it "crazy" or untrue.

Energy is energy.

That's a bit of a pet peeve of mine, when energy is used to refer to mystical stuff
As for things in this world that defy rational explanation - I'd love some examples, because I can't think of anything that defy rational explanation.