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How do you feel about Satan?

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Namikaze said:
A holy God wasn't going to give sinners 1 billion years when they were already having continuously evil thoughts after a few thousand maybe.

Also,there is such a thing as righteous anger in the bible. Ephesians 4:26. You only assumed that anger instantly = sin and therefore, God sinned. Also, you and a few other people keep focusing on how many people have (physically) died, but the worst death to experience is of the spiritual variety..that's why Jesus said things like "what does it profit a man if he gains the whole world and loses his soul."

One more thing, you keep saying that you don't see how God can be good while also killing people. But those people broke his rules and he is free to spare them as long as he wants or end their life whenever he wants because they are not good. God is the one who is not only good, but the standard for it, and therefore he defines what is good, not mankind. We tend to think we're already pretty good people, therefore, God is the one who messed up somewhere. Not true.
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I'm sure you're familiar with Euphythro's Dilemma. Right?


Hmm..I mean, that's basically what Christ said. Repent or perish. The love comes after faith in Christ.
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Well, at least you can admit it. Now to get you to realize why it's evil to do that...
 
Seems like a more interesting character than Jesus tbh

I'm sure Jesus was friendzoned by girls a lot. Satan got all the puss
 
Let's see:

God Wants:

  • Fealty
  • Your belief in him
  • Is probably too busy fighting evil and keeping the status quo between good and evil

The Devil pretty much wants:

  • Corrupt and destroy all of creation and life
  • Decieve people in believing in him, or serving him
  • You don't get anything, you get a raw fucking deal. But that's what you get for dealing with something outside of the bounds of human understanding and plies its trade in trickery and deception

So no, I won't have anything to do with the Devil. I like existence.

Mixed feelings on God, but I still believe/love him because it is better than the alternative.

I mean you wouldn't worship Cthulhu? I sure as hell wouldn't.
 
RoyaleDuke said:
Let's see:

God Wants:

  • Fealty
  • Your belief in him
  • Is probably too busy fighting evil and keeping the status quo between good and evil

The Devil pretty much wants:

  • Corrupt and destroy all of creation and life
  • Decieve people in believing in him, or serving him
  • You don't get anything, you get a raw fucking deal. But that's what you get for dealing with something outside of the bounds of human understanding and plies its trade in trickery and deception

So no, I won't have anything to do with the Devil. I like existence.

Mixed feelings on God, but I still believe/love him because it is better than the alternative.

I mean you wouldn't worship Cthulhu? I sure as hell wouldn't.
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TBF you only know all that because that's what God says the devil want's plus God does tonnes of mean shit. The bible is like a devil dis track. God needs to chill with his beef.
 
RoyaleDuke said:
Let's see:

God Wants:

  • Fealty
  • Your belief in him
  • Is probably too busy fighting evil and keeping the status quo between good and evil

The Devil pretty much wants:

  • Corrupt and destroy all of creation and life
  • Decieve people in believing in him, or serving him
  • You don't get anything, you get a raw fucking deal. But that's what you get for dealing with something outside of the bounds of human understanding and plies its trade in trickery and deception

So no, I won't have anything to do with the Devil. I like existence.

Mixed feelings on God, but I still believe/love him because it is better than the alternative.

I mean you wouldn't worship Cthulhu? I sure as hell wouldn't.
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Well if you even believe in Cthulhu it means there is no human god because we're basically bacteria to the rest of the universe, maybe not even bacteria. ;D
 
SG-17 said:
It's fascinating. We know that the flood myth has roots in oral tradition thousands of years before it was written down (most popularly in the Old Testament and the Epic of Gilgamesh) based in likely events such as the overflow of the Mediterranean into the Black Sea, flooding it or a change in sea level at the Tigris River delta.

Could it be possible that the story of the fall of man be also an oral tradition dating back to when humans coexisted with other human species, neanderthal and erectus, and the thoughts and theories of those humans as to why they "knew evil" and could talk, murder, make art, etc compared to the other human species.
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I've always thought a story about the "first" ancestor to develop consciousness would be interesting :P Like "What is this? Why don't others have it?" It seems like it could actually be pretty scary for people in that position.
 
Polioliolio said:
And what a choice it is! Love me or burn for eternity. Haha, wtf.
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Why does so many people gives Jesus a pass on the whole hell conundrum? The Jews didn't even have a concept of hell before Jesus came into the picture. Yahweh might have killed most of humanity in a flood, caused a couple of genocide and tortured people because of his glaring jealousy, but the concept of hell where you are damned to suffer and burn for all eternity because you didn't accept Jesus as your lord and savior is some Kim Jon-Un level of evilness.

My grandpa, probably the nicest guy imaginable liked Carl Sagan and became irreligious. He didn't accept Jesus as his lord and savior anymore and for that 'crime' if Christianity is true he's now suffering in hell and will do so for all eternity. Actually most of the people I know will suffer the same fate, even my soon to be 94 year old grandmother have hell waiting for her because she doesn't accept Jesus as lord and savior anymore.

The only requirement of entering heaven is to love Jesus and accept him as lord and savior. You might be the biggest asshole on the planet, a murderer, rapist or serial killer, but as long as you accept Jesus your ticket is secured.

This glaring hypocrisy and narcissism makes Jesus into one of the biggest assholes of the Bible. I don't care if he fed people or healed the sick. He was a wizard with magical powers that could do these tricks by an effortless touch. If anyone on the planet had acquired similar power most of us would have done the same, and without demanding love and worship in return. But he did so only to a few people, and that was to garner popularity and get more followers, cause we all know how incredible important it is for Jesus to be worshiped and adored.

Satan on the other hand gave us free well, he taught us critical thinking and he rebelled against this injustice which anyone in their right mind would do. He is obviously a good guy and the underdog of the story.

Oh and someone did a checkup on the bible counting the amount of murders done by god compared to Satan.

god-v-satan.png

And that is without including the flood.
 
I'm pretty sure George R.R. Martin based King Joffrey off of God. His first response to anybody doing something he didn't like was to react with violence. Satan was the adult realizing he could no longer serve a tyrannical child king. I would gladly join Satan to storm the gates of Heaven to free humanity from the shackles of servitude. Supreme executive powers are derived from the mandate of the masses not from farcical creationist fantasy!
 
Correctomundo said:
Doesn't that kind of imply that I'm doomed to Hell? To avoid Hell, I'd have to love God, which I can't. For starters, I don't even think that this god exists in any fashion except the minds of believers. And second, even if I did, his character is awful. He's a demonstrably evil bully whose doesn't behave according to the attributes he touts - making him a hypocrite - and expects me to be happy (or forcefully ignorant) that billions suffer in Hell.

Do you honestly believe I can just decide to love someone like that? Would I even want to? Just to save my own skin? That's the height of selfishness. I can't do that.

I'm more moral than your god, and I bet you are, too.
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People often say "why God won't physically show himself and prove once and for all that he exists" and use it as a proof that God doesn't exist, because surely he as a maximally great being could, should and would do that.

But I think that what you wrote demonstrates at least one reason that's not going to happen. It would be very likely that when suddenly encountered by God, lots of people probably wouldn't be happy at all with it. That's why our walk with God should be based on faith. The trust in God should come from a very deep place from within. Otherwise the first thing we would do is to accuse God of being a dick to us, to who we love and to the rest of the people. Like for example I could imagine myself claiming him to be petty if he's not ok with me lusting over women. I would say it's not hurting anyone and it feels good to me. Then I would probably say he's responsible for my lust anyway since he made me the way I am, and as I've been overly sexual at least from when I was only six years old, then how I'm supposed to suppress a thing I've lived with ever since I was a little boy. And in the end all I'm doing is trying to create my own rules and telling excuses.

And if it turns out that he has rejected someone who I've thought had been a wonderful person for their whole life, I might say God is wrong because I knew that person better. Why would he be a dick to someone who I liked? Who I liked! Plus, he's a genocidal tyrant anyways, so I'm right. Right?

I'm in love with my ego so much that a sudden encounter with God might not be good to me at all. It may be that being able to come in terms with God through more philosophic angle is better for me. And even then, encountering God could be an awkward situation because even when I might think God is now ok with me, it might turn out he'll point out all the hypocrisy and stubborness there still is within me and I might get angry because of it. The only thing I really can count in is that even though God might be very pleased with some aspects of my life (like I'm generally trying to be kind towards people), he probably still has plenty of or at least some issues with me. Because who am I to say "yeah you are right in that I'm a kind person but you are wrong in where you think I'm not good?" As if the ultimate reality beyond our physical lives is based on what we think is the most comfortable thing right at this moment. There needs to be this certain type of humbleness and acceptance of an authority (which I admit always seems to sting my ego a bit) which I think is hard to come by in any other way than through a faith-based understanding of God.

It's easy to call out God for things we think are not fair, but what if we'd have the power of God? Things would go astray the day this new God-person would have his first day of feeling extreme sense of anger, sadness, lust, hate etc. Sure we are all nice people when we are nice, but I'm sure there are not one person who hasn't had a day when he's done something that he's regretted a ton later. Or not even regretted but just done something very bad. And in the context of being a God without the need to physically go and physically do those things, but where a mere thought is enough to cause your will to happen, how many times we have thought bad things? At the very least we'd have restricted the free will of people during the days we feel good, as we'd probably stop someone doing something we think is bad. How far would we go in restricting the free will?




I think that if we expect God to show himself for us to believe in him, we should expect us to throw a tantrum at him and reject him because we generally seem to believe we are better than him. So, it's better for God to reveal himself in a different way. Or, to say it better, it's better for us to have God revealing himself in a different way. Otherwise we would more likely follow our egos and make ourselves be detached from God forever.

And to be on topic, I think that is what Satan is. Satan is our ego thinking he's too big and shiny to stay in his place, not understanding it is a logical impossibility to take the place of God and not understanding what separation from God really means.
 
Namikaze said:
He never kills people without reason; he kills them (at times, especially in the OT in times of war) because from His perspective, they're wicked in his eyes and won't repent and follow him. He's never broken any of his commandments because every emotion he's displayed (his jealously, anger etc.) was done with a right view of the situation at hand and with His perfect knowledge. I'll give you a specific NT example; there was a point where Christ was basically flipping tables and cracking whips. He didn't sin in his anger because he knew how important having the utmost respect for God was and he saw people treating a place of worship like dirt (sinning btw), therefore, was justified in his anger.



He doesn't actually want anyone to perish. 2 Peter 3:9 "The Lord is not slack concerning his promise, as some men count slackness; but is longsuffering to us-ward, not willing that any should perish, but that all should come to repentance."

That said, from his perspective, since he's perfect he would be justified in killing everyone alive right now (just like he basically did in the OT) since we all have to face physical death anyways and we've all offended him with our sin. He won't do that though, since what he really wants is people to come to him and be saved from judgement. Most won't come though and prefer their own way.
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I like how you know your bible. And not cherry picking certain scriptures
 
He's fake, like jesus and god.

And if I die and find out any of the above are real and are anything like in the religious texts, they can all fuck off. I have no time for petty insignificant deities, I've got a universe to explore.
 
Airola said:
People often say "why God won't physically show himself and prove once and for all that he exists" and use it as a proof that God doesn't exist, because surely he as a maximally great being could, should and would do that.

But I think that what you wrote demonstrates at least one reason that's not going to happen. It would be very likely that when suddenly encountered by God, lots of people probably wouldn't be happy at all with it. That's why our walk with God should be based on faith. The trust in God should come from a very deep place from within. Otherwise the first thing we would do is to accuse God of being a dick to us, to who we love and to the rest of the people. Like for example I could imagine myself claiming him to be petty if he's not ok with me lusting over women. I would say it's not hurting anyone and it feels good to me. Then I would probably say he's responsible for my lust anyway since he made me the way I am, and as I've been overly sexual at least from when I was only six years old, then how I'm supposed to suppress a thing I've lived with ever since I was a little boy. And in the end all I'm doing is trying to create my own rules and telling excuses.

And if it turns out that he has rejected someone who I've thought had been a wonderful person for their whole life, I might say God is wrong because I knew that person better. Why would he be a dick to someone who I liked? Who I liked! Plus, he's a genocidal tyrant anyways, so I'm right. Right?

I'm in love with my ego so much that a sudden encounter with God might not be good to me at all. It may be that being able to come in terms with God through more philosophic angle is better for me. And even then, encountering God could be an awkward situation because even when I might think God is now ok with me, it might turn out he'll point out all the hypocrisy and stubborness there still is within me and I might get angry because of it. The only thing I really can count in is that even though God might be very pleased with some aspects of my life (like I'm generally trying to be kind towards people), he probably still has plenty of or at least some issues with me. Because who am I to say "yeah you are right in that I'm a kind person but you are wrong in where you think I'm not good?" As if the ultimate reality beyond our physical lives is based on what we think is the most comfortable thing right at this moment. There needs to be this certain type of humbleness and acceptance of an authority (which I admit always seems to sting my ego a bit) which I think is hard to come by in any other way than through a faith-based understanding of God.

It's easy to call out God for things we think are not fair, but what if we'd have the power of God? Things would go astray the day this new God-person would have his first day of feeling extreme sense of anger, sadness, lust, hate etc. Sure we are all nice people when we are nice, but I'm sure there are not one person who hasn't had a day when he's done something that he's regretted a ton later. Or not even regretted but just done something very bad. And in the context of being a God without the need to physically go and physically do those things, but where a mere thought is enough to cause your will to happen, how many times we have thought bad things? At the very least we'd have restricted the free will of people during the days we feel good, as we'd probably stop someone doing something we think is bad. How far would we go in restricting the free will?




I think that if we expect God to show himself for us to believe in him, we should expect us to throw a tantrum at him and reject him because we generally seem to believe we are better than him. So, it's better for God to reveal himself in a different way. Or, to say it better, it's better for us to have God revealing himself in a different way. Otherwise we would more likely follow our egos and make ourselves be detached from God forever.

And to be on topic, I think that is what Satan is. Satan is our ego thinking he's too big and shiny to stay in his place, not understanding it is a logical impossibility to take the place of God and not understanding what separation from God really means.
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That all might be well and good but most of the books and such about him tend to paint him as insane by our standards and we have nothing but our standards to judge him by. I'm not going to be happy knowing there is some grander plan when he's flooding the planet he gave us and let us have free reign over but then decided one day he wasn't happy with how we turned out. I call them how I see them and God seems like one scary fucking entity to me. Cthuhlu is less scary concept of a god because he's inherently alien, a giant squid faced monster from the stars and his actions will never make sense nor take us into consideration.

God created us in his image and look how fucked up we are. Its even scarier because we're a reflection of it and vice versa. He still doesn't mind punishing us for seemingly arbitrary things, making bets on peoples lives and souls, etc. I liken it to being stabbed by a stranger. That's a terrible thing, but what's worse? Getting stabbed by someone you know, love and trust while they stare you in the eye and tell you its for your own good.
 
HStallion said:
I call them how I see them and God seems like one scary fucking entity to me.
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This is one thing I've wondered about too.
No-one is afraid of God anymore. Or maybe they are afraid of the idea of a God and use that as one of the "proofs" that God can't exist, because for some reason fear makes a good God's existence impossible.

I mean, at some point in time people were all ok with the idea of the fear of God. And at the same time it wasn't mutually exclusive with the idea of a loving and caring God.

But at some point there was a change in this attitude. People were no longer ok with the idea of fear. It became something that's only a negative thing.
 
Question...

What would God have to do to prove his existence to you anyway? (without thinking it could be aliens, some other being, you being crazy, etc...)
 
Baby, can you dig your man? He's a righteous man!

The interpretations of Satan in pop culture are magnificent and fun.
 
Namikaze said:
Can you share the evidence you have against the Adam and Eve story? I'm open to hearing your side.
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Well yes. Humanity evolved from a common ancestor we share with chimpanzees, we branched off against 7million years ago. Since then we've gradually evolved into our modern homo sapiens species. So we were not created out of nothing and a woman was not created out of a man's rib, genders existed long before that. Nothing suggests that any 2 specific individuals at any single point were granted and subsequently stripped of immortality either.
 
The modern idea of "Satan" is such a mish mash of past cultural beliefs social more transgressions that it is hard to really say what to think of him/it. Even widely accepted ideas like the snake in the Garden of Eden being Satan aren't really grounded in the text. Satan is just anything that Christians don't like or seems to threaten their power in society, and some sects of that faith's social engineering and surreptitiousness over the past 2000 years would give the "Father of Lies" a run for his money. Lucifer and Satan barely seem to be the same entity, and that's not even getting into all the overthrown gods, goddesses and spiritual entities that were apparently all just his secret aliases. Lucifer doesn't really seem to have done much wrong other than question God, who comes across as a bit Trump-like in the Old Testament with his thin-skinnedness. It's basically "Boy Who Cried Wolf" on both sides and all people have is religious people on their word and a heavily curated, retranslated many times over, thousands of year old book to go by.

It has definitely become a scary idea, and is especially good for grandmothers to use to make grandchildren do their chores, eat their peas and go to bed on time.



So Satan and I aren't going steady or anything, but if he's real I think he might have a bum rap.
 
Namikaze said:
That makes sense but "knowledge of the universe" made it seem like Satan was trying to sell Eve on something much grander than just "eat the fruit and be like God, God didn't mean what he said" to me.

Anyways, you're right that our current society and knowledge wouldn't be the same, but is that really a bad thing? What is so great about all the scientific knowledge, technology, entertainment etc. that we have that made it worth going against God? He definitely had much greater things to show us than that. Also, biblically speaking, everything has been tainted with sin. If we had perfect bodies that never aged, the animals were tame etc. a lot of topics that we currently understand (anatomy+physiology, animal behavior just as a quick example) would be different anyways.

Ultimately, I don't think our knowledge alone has made us better people or was worth rebelling against God for. And according to the word, it's not like it having all this stuff gets us in good standing with God now that we've rebelled. Jesus made sure he was very clear when he said "repent or perish."
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What's great about those things? Well, they're real, for one thing. Are you seriously arguing that ignorant obedience and unearned fealty to the being keeping you in that state is better than being in control of your own life? Seems like a very scared and helpless way to exist. In Christian mythology, Satan is a champion of humanity's self-awareness, while the lore's god is a controlling, abusive mass murderer.
 
StalkerUKCG said:
TBF you only know all that because that's what God says the devil want's plus God does tonnes of mean shit. The bible is like a devil dis track. God needs to chill with his beef.
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AmaterasuOni said:
Would you worship Flying Spaghetti Monster or Xenu or Saruman? Cthulhu and these jolly fellows are as real as Christian God and Satan.
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Yes, he was wrathful, but he changed... Kind of like humans.

Also, I'd like to point out that one of the main issues I have with the bible is the fact that, much of what God supposedly hates, aside from Satan, appear as very human concerns. Which makes me think that the message of hate in Christianity/Catholicism, is one perpetrated by people who wish to use religion as a means to an end. I think the message of love, forgiveness, acceptance, are what he really cares about.

Now, I have no way of convincing you, since most of you are probably skeptics.

I have seen ghosts, and I have seen demons. I know the devil exists, and if he exists then logically, God exists too.

I was always more agnostic, borderline athiest, but I've seen things I can't explain, that science cannot explain.

I will say though, you know what Satan's greatest feat is? Convincing the world he doesn't exist.

I leave this quote from The Call of Cthulhu by HP Lovecraft(which by the way, he was a devout Christian):

The most merciful thing in the world, I think, is the inability of the human mind to correlate all its contents. We live on a placid island of ignorance in the midst of black seas of infinity, and it was not meant that we should voyage far. The sciences, each straining in its own direction, have hitherto harmed us little; but some day the piecing together of dissociated knowledge will open up such terrifying vistas of reality, and of our frightful position therein, that we shall either go mad from the revelation or flee from the deadly light into the peace and safety of a new dark age.
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I ask you, how can you possibly conceive of something that is eternal? That is All powerful? You cannot, just as Lovecraft argued.

I will also say this, it is not God that makes us fight, it is not God who kills the children, or fate that butchers them.

It's us, only us.


HStallion said:
Well if you even believe in Cthulhu it means there is no human god because we're basically bacteria to the rest of the universe, maybe not even bacteria. ;D
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Well played. ;P At The Mountains of Madness is one of my favorites.

adj_noun said:
But that's the only way you will be eaten first!

Ia! Ia! Ph'nglui Mglw'nafh Cthulhu R'lyeh wgah'nagl fhtagn!
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Cthulhu ftaughn, Ia Dagoth, Ia Shub-Niggurath! The Black Goatt of a Thousand Young!
 
I have seen ghosts, and I have seen demons. I know the devil exists, and if he exists then logically, God exists too.

I was always more agnostic, borderline athiest, but I've seen things I can't explain, that science cannot explain.
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How do you know science can't explain what you think you saw?

Just because you don't seem to understand what you saw doesn't mean it's demons, ghosts etc..

EDIT; For RoyaleDuke

I messed up the quote.
 
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