I don't think we HAVE to go to "what-ifs" about women lying to understand that "deception" can get much more murkier than even your dumbest MRA could ever portray consent out to be.
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I don't think we HAVE to go to "what-ifs" about women lying to understand that "deception" can get much more murkier than even your dumbest MRA could ever portray consent out to be.
2Smashed4U
Banned
Brutal rape is the only form of rape now? News to me.
BreezyLimbo
Banned
Nope because in the Jewish/Muslim case, the offender apparently repeatedly suggested they were jewish.
If you knew someone who repeatedly suggested they were a Liberal...then yeah itd be misleading? But simply sleeping with someone and THEN finding out his X is different. The offender has to repeatedly lie and suggest otherwise to you to consist of fraud.
Fair enough.
Language is always a two way street so it's on both of us. That being said I do think most people would infer that you were connecting the ideas from your post.
I Stalk Alone
Member
Those hookers better stop with the wearing makeup and fake names or else you be raping me.
Now, where's my blow?
Now, where's my blow?
matt360
Member
Of course that's true. But for the sake of this discussion and in order to figure out where the line should be drawn we need to throw out all types of examples.
A british friend of mine hit on a girl by pretending to be australian. She eventually caught on and dropped giving him attention, but what if they hooked up and he dropped it mid-act. Or someone was under the assumption their partner was well hung and turns out wasn't, like in that james macavoy movie. Seems like those would not be a very serious cases.
The Jew/arab thing seems entirely dismissable to me. Gender seems like a bigger issue, but I feel like you would figure it out before the act got too far along, and I would be upset by the deception but certainly wouldn't seek severe punishment for them. I'm not sure where the lines are.
Because thats even more stupid than the guy who sued(succesfully?) his wife after he found out she had plastic surgery and wasnt born beautiful.
Lets go down this slope and include makeup as far as deception goes.
no need to do this
If that was a deal breaker for the other party, yes.
I mean, how hard is to get? Anybody can deny anybody else sex for whatever arbitrary reason they fucking desire.
Maybe some people don't mind having sex with married partners, but some one will mind, and they are in their right to say "no i don't want to have sex with you because you are married", if they are lied to and someone says they're single, that's rape by deception.
If this goes through that's for the court to decide, but if the person was sincere about their belief (im assuming he wasn't, but this thread is full of what ifs, so let's pretend he was) why wouldn't it count?
We actually had a thread about that last case:
http://www.neogaf.com/forum/showthread.php?t=401803
His side of the story was that he used a Jewish-sounding nickname to identify himself and spoke unaccented Hebrew, but that she never asked him if he was Jewish.
http://www.neogaf.com/forum/showthread.php?t=401803
His side of the story was that he used a Jewish-sounding nickname to identify himself and spoke unaccented Hebrew, but that she never asked him if he was Jewish.
Count Dookkake
Member
I think you can figure out my answer to that from reading the rest of my posts in this thread.
I have a lot of thoughts about non cisgendered folk lying about their status, but I look at those rates of violence against them and tbh people gotta chalk that one up to the game.
sexuality is a spectrum anyway.
HawksWinStanley
Member
ITT I learned Barney Stinson is a serial rapist
If you saw this show and didn't get that the whole schtick of the character was that he was a horribly misogynistc awful person, you missed the joke entirely.
Hickbilly Deluxe
Banned
There aren't enough prison beds in the US to cover this one.
But again, where is the line between a purposeful deception, and accidental deception, a purposeful deception that one party doesn't think is a big deal, etc.?
Obviously I am in favor of criminalizing rape by deception, but no, these are not laws that are easy to write or situations that are always obvious to interpret.
Gender is probably the thorniest and most difficult aspect of this. At a certain level gender identity is entirely internal and thus no one else's business. Gender expression and identity are not required to correlate, and I would never tell a trans person that they need to walk around advertising themselves due to the issues of violence and stigmatization.
Yes, totally agree. This should not be difficult to figure out.
yeah he is, but a serial rapist?
HawksWinStanley
Member
Well yeah but not a rapist as this thread suggests.
"Sexuality is a spectrum" doesnt mean people's orientation just changes with the wind.
starchild excalibur
Member
That reduces the power and tragedy of what real rape victims have actually experienced.
Sorry, but I'm not ready to equate someone who fucks another person that lied about what religion they were or how much they earned per year to someone who was victimized either through force, while asleep/intoxicated, or through other fucked up power dynamics.
I'm not going to pretend "rape by deception" is an easy or clear topic to address, but I think it needs a bit more specificity than any kind of fucking that was in some part the result of deception.
Umm, what?
2Smashed4U
Banned
Yeah, no that's not rape. Come the fuck on, people will lie about literally anything. You don't get to fuck an ideal person. Ever.
In the OP, I'd say cases 1 and 3 are rape. Just don't pretend to be a different person altogether than who you are.
You should think about what you typed. This can be read as condoning violence against trans people.
Someone lying to get into bed with someone doesn't deserve my sympathy whether they're trans or not ?
This is a topic about rape.
umm I'm not going so far as to suggest trans people deserve violence against them because of them lying to a sexual partner about their status. Can't say that in good conscience
Yeah, you really need to take a minute to reread that. I don't think you meant what it looks like you are saying though the sentiment I'm seeing here is problematic, just less so.
I'm not sure what that has to do with condoning violence against trans people. The fact that these people would be trans is the crux of the whole issue. It's also ignoring the much wider power dynamics at play in being trans in society. Seriously I'd recommend you at least go back and try to qualify what you were saying somewhat.
Well, that the thing most people are ignoring in this thread.
We are talking about the concept, however it would be up to courts to prove each case to be actual deception.
How do you prove that the person purposefully deceived the victim?
Maybe Johnny Hardcore Christian would never have sex with Jane the Bisexual, but if the later never was informed that such thing was a deal breaker for him, she was never asked about her sexuality, and there was no way for EITHER PARTY to know, you can't prove there was deception.
The only reason why he gets away with it is because the women in this imaginary version of NY didn't give a shit about him lying after the act.
Much like in the real world there would be people who likely wouldn't give a fuck about being lying for something so minor like "im an athlete", but the point is, there will be people who will give a fuck and their rape claims are pretty much valid.
A woman presenting herself as a woman isn't lying, no matter what biological sex she was born as.
You are advocating violence against trans individuals.
What is problematic about it ? If someone lies in order to have sex with someone they don't have my sympathy.
If you're curious, the good old "trans panic" defense will get you straight into jail.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gay_panic_defense#Trans_panic
Except the concept needs to be well thought out as well. At the bare minimum accepting this whole hog has implications for our understanding of rape, sex, and consent.
Besides the power dynamic you're ignoring here, which ironically was centrally important for the creation of the ideas of rape and consent we are using, you aren't just saying you don't sympathize, which isn't exactly a great look either, you are suggesting that the violence is deserved.
It's really not as simple as you're making it out to be, and I wish I could explain it but I'm definitely not well versed enough to do it.
2Smashed4U
Banned
Yeah, still not rape, not even conceptually. That trivializes actual rape. Not willing to entertain that.
Well it would also be up to the legislature when crafting such laws.
And again, even if a deception of some sort was purposeful, it's very possible an individual did not know that deception would be a deal breaker.
No I'm not "advocating" violence against anyone, certainly not trans people in general. I'm also not gonna feel sorry for people I view as rapists.
And you can pretend all you want that genitals have nothing to do with the act of having sex but I'm not here for it.
Phrozenflame500
Member
Oh man I have conflicted feelings about this
But I do think this is probably the most reasonable line in the sand here. But even then you've got edge cases where coercion might come into play.
But I do think this is probably the most reasonable line in the sand here. But even then you've got edge cases where coercion might come into play.
And you're trivializing Rape by deception with this attitude, just because 90% of the population would shrug lies for sex, doesn't invalidate the 10% who wouldn't.
Yeah, it's one of those things that will be a bitch to regulate in practice, shit's complex.
I'd say there are four levels in play here. The jurisprudent, legalistic, ethical, and gender theoretical. We need to think this through on all four levels.
2Smashed4U
Banned
I'm not going to lie, if I had sex with a trans-woman and I wasn't aware of it and we're under the impression she was a cis woman (not sure how likely that would be logistically), I would actually feel very upset about that, but I don't really know how to reconcile that feeling with everything else I believe.
Given the weight of this discussion, and the use of the word violence in situations like this, you really might want to go back and change that word in particular. People aren't going to read violence as a slap in the face. This is ignoring the fact that there are still some problematic components in what you are saying.
What you are saying is that a trans woman is not a woman, and they deserve violence visited upon them for presenting themselves as such.
Do I deserve to be subjected to sex I don't want to be having ?
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