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How do you feel about the concept of "Rape by Deception"?

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PSqueak said:
And you're trivializing Rape by deception with this attitude, just because 90% of the population would shrug lies for sex, doesn't invalidate the 10% who wouldn't.
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I agree there are several types of cases where I would definitely consider it rape. The idea that all deception isn't rape is not a strong one.

Bob and John are Twins

Bob and Sally are married

John engages in sexual acts with Sally under the pretense that he is Bob.

That, is definitely rape. But there are so many fringe cases that you could never rule out the idea of it, but making policy with broad definitions is a no-go for me
 
azyless said:
I didn't mean homicide, and I certainly wasn't advocating for it. If someone did this to me they'd probably get a slap in the face though.
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You said that trans people deserve violence in that situation. Stop pretending you were saying anything else. You have the exact same attitude that leads to people dying from that trans-panic bullshit.

The defendants claimed that Araujo's failure to disclose her biological sex was tantamount to deception, and that the subsequent revelation of her biological sex "had provoked the violent response to what Thorman represented as a sexual violation 'so deep it's almost primal'"
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PSqueak said:
And you're trivializing Rape by deception with this attitude, just because 90% of the population would shrug lies for sex, doesn't invalidate the 10% who wouldn't.



Yeah, it's one of those things that will be a bitch to regulate in practice, shit's complex.
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That's those 10% problem at that point, I don't give a shit. Everyone has had sex with people that if they had known everything about, they would not have done it for some unknown dealbreaker.

You cannot accommodate literally everything for literally everybody. If someone being married or Christian is that much of a factor that you would feel *raped* by someone like that, then it's your personality responsibility to learn enough about that person before you decide to sleep with them. You do have to own your own actions at some point.
 
TheHolyTurnip said:
Goodbye make up and roleplay
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Roleplay is a consensual activity between two parties tho.

2Smashed4U said:
That's those 10% problem at that point, I don't give a shit. Everyone has had sex with people that if they had known everything about, they would not have done it for some unknown dealbreaker.

You cannot accommodate literally everything for literally everybody. If someone being married or Christian is that much of a factor that you would feel *raped* by someone like that, then it's your personality responsibility to learn enough about that person before you decide to sleep with them. You do have to own your own actions at some point.
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Yes, it's ones responsibility to learn about that person, but if you ask the person, and they lie to you about it, and sustain a falsehood regarding that, that's deception, it's a damn cause to be upset about because you're being coerced.

Let's use your own admission regarding how you feel about Transwomen, im not gonna go into what it means that you hold such view, just the fact that it's a deal breaker for you.

Imagine if you actually asked her, probed around the people she knows about whenever or not she is trans, she says she's a cis woman, she tells her friends to tell you likewise, you took your responsibility to find out and as far as your research goes, she is Cis. You find out she is trans, you are outraged.

Whenever or not you press charges for rape by deception doesn't matter. What matters is you could and you would be justified.

Personally i'd judge you for that tho, because to me a woman being a transwoman is not a deal breaker, a woman is a woman, but i'd understand your right to.
 
Deepwater said:
I agree there are several types of cases where I would definitely consider it rape. The idea that all deception isn't rape is not a strong one.

Bob and John are Twins

Bob and Sally are married

John engages in sexual acts with Sally under the pretense that he is Bob.

That, is definitely rape. But there are so many fringe cases that you could never rule out the idea of it, but making policy with broad definitions is a no-go for me
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Right. Revenge of the Nerds shit is most definitely rape.
 
azyless said:
Do I deserve to be subjected to sex I don't want to be having ?
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No. But no one deserves to be assaulted bcause your definition of what a woman is conflicts with theirs. If this is such a concern for you, I would ask people before you sleep with them what their biological sex at birth was.
 
azyless said:
No I'm not "advocating" violence against anyone, certainly not trans people in general. I'm also not gonna feel sorry for people I view as rapists.
And you can pretend all you want that genitals have nothing to do with the act of having sex but I'm not here for it.
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Then what do you mean, "not undeserved"? And do you realize that trans people generally do not hide that they are trans to their sex partners?
 
Most people men and women have probably told a lie somewhete here or there to get someone into bed at some point, trying to make it a crime is at best ridiculous and at worst a very dangerous road to go down
 
Euphor!a said:
Because it is being wildly disingenuous. He never once said that a trans woman is not a woman.
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Well then there is no deception here. Unless a woman who was biologically born a man tells anyone they might sleep with that that is not the case, no one has lied about anything.
 
Some interesting hypotheticals that I'd like to see some comments on (I'm just wanting to get some discussion going, because I feel this is an interesting topic with depth that should be explored):

1 - If I'm an atheist in an incredibly rural religious area and my outing could potentially cause me a great deal of undue social burden or even put me in danger, and the woman I have sex with wouldn't have sex with someone that hadn't been saved by Jesus Christ (for this specific example, let's assume that she didn't tell me this specifically but could be easily enough inferred), am I raping her by not telling her that I'm an atheist? Would it be rape if I knowingly lead her on to believe that I was Christian?

2 - If I was seeking a long term relationship, but would prefer not to do this with a single parent, and my potential partner knows this and we have sex for me to later discover that they are a single parent, have I been raped?

3 - Are inconsequential deceptions deceptions that can violate someone's sexual security? IE: If I'm 28, and I'm replying to an ad asking for someone that's 30 or more, and I tell them I'm 30, and we have sex because of that, is that rape in the same way that misleading someone into sex with me based on my employment or social status is potentially rape?

4 - Can I say I have been raped by a woman who wore heavy makeup, or a push-up bra, or a corset if they told me that they were wearing less makeup than they were, or had larger breasts than they did, or were fatter than they said they were? If someone dyes their hair and posits themselves as a natural redhead because they knows that I like readheads, can I have them brought up on rape charges when their roots grow out and I can tell that they're not a natural redhead?

5 - If I make it clear that I will only consent to sex under the stipulation that the other person consents to sex, and the other person revokes their consent mid-intercourse, can I then claim that they had raped me because I would only consent if they consented?

6 - If I meet someone that was at a convention at a hotel that I'm staying at, and I lead that person to believe that I'm also attending the convention, and the conversation that stems from that eventually leads to a casual hookup of some kind, am I raping the individual in question?

Count Dookkake said:
Do you feel the same about "statutory rape"?
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Statutory rape is a different crime - under the law, minors are unable to consent to adults. The deception angle is irrelevant in that context. However, that also brings up another interesting hypothetical for rape by deception: In the instances where someone lies and says they're over the age of 18 so that someone feels comfortable enough to have sex with them, are they rapists?
 
Matt said:
Well then there is no deception here. Unless a woman who was biologically born a man tells anyone they might sleep with that that is not the case, no one has lied about anything.
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You can say that all you want, but just like the 1000's of other examples in this thread, it is a murky area.
 
TCKaos said:
Some interesting hypotheticals that I'd like to see some comments on:

1 - If I'm an atheist in an incredibly rural religious area and my outing could potentially cause me a great deal of undue social burden or even put me in danger, and the woman I have sex with wouldn't have sex with someone that hadn't been saved by Jesus Christ (for this specific example, let's assume that she didn't tell me this specifically but could be easily enough inferred), am I raping her by not telling her that I'm an atheist? Would it be rape if I knowingly lead her on to believe that I was Christian?

2 - If I was seeking a long term relationship, but would prefer not to do this with a single parent, and my potential partner knows this and we have sex for me to later discover that they are a single parent, have I been raped?

3 - Are inconsequential deceptions deceptions that can violate someone's sexual security? IE: If I'm 28, and I'm replying to an ad asking for someone that's 30 or more, and I tell them I'm 30, and we have sex because of that, is that rape in the same way that misleading someone into sex with me based on my employment or social status is potentially rape?

4 - Can I say I have been raped by a woman who wore heavy makeup, or a push-up bra, or a corset if they told me that they were wearing less makeup than they were, or had larger breasts than they did, or were fatter than they said they were? If someone dyes their hair and posits themselves as a natural redhead because they knows that I like readheads, can I have them brought up on rape charges when their roots grow out and I can tell that they're not a natural redhead?

5 - If I make it clear that I will only consent to sex under the stipulation that the other person consents to sex, and the other person revokes their consent mid-intercourse, can I then claim that they had raped me because I would only consent if they consented?

6 - If I meet someone that was at a convention at a hotel that I'm staying at, and I lead that person to believe that I'm also attending the convention, and the conversation that stems from that eventually leads to a casual hookup of some kind, am I raping the individual in question?
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I would say a flat no to all of the above.
 
This is interesting, going by the op's quoted bits. My impulse is to say that they should be classified as something different, but I have no idea what that would be and "Rape by deception" probably does a better job of illustrating what happened than any alternatives I could think of
 
Euphor!a said:
You can say that all you want, but just like the 1000's of other examples in this thread, it is a murky area.
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It's only a murky area if somehow they might not be women. Which is what you're saying isn't what you're saying. So why exactly is it murky?
 
Matt said:
No. But no one deserves to be assaulted bcause your definition of what a woman is conflicts with theirs. If this is such a concern for you, I would ask people before you sleep with them what their biological sex at birth was.
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Hmm, okay. I can see where you're coming from. I feel like trans people have to be the one disclosing this if things are about to move further, or not if they don't want to. It feels like everyone would be more comfortable that way to me honestly but maybe that's not the case.
And I do see trans women as women, but sex is about more than gender, to me at least. I don't want to be crude but if I got surprise PIV that I was not expecting, nor wanted at any point, then that would be rape for me. I can have sympathy for trans people afraid to disclose very personal information, I can have sympathy for trans people getting assaulted for disclosing it before the act, I can't have sympathy for rapists though, sorry if that's crossing a line.
 
Euphor!a said:
You can say that all you want, but just like the 1000's of other examples in this thread, it is a murky area.
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Even if you consider it a "murky area," no one in this situation deserves to be attacked. If he had just said he would feel uncomfortable, or even violated in such a situation, well that's his choice. But justifying physical violence is beyond reasonable.
 
Cocaloch said:
It's only a murky area if somehow they might not be women.
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No, not really.

Matt said:
Even if you consider it a "murky area," no one in this situation deserves to be attacked. If he had just said he would feel uncomfortable, or even violated in such a situation, well that's his choice. But justifying physical violence is beyond reasonable.
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That I agree with, violence is definitely not okay in this case or any case regarding this topic of rape by deception.
 
2Smashed4U said:
Brutal rape is the only form of rape now? News to me.
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All rape is dehumanizing and brutal. There are no other words for it. If you want to get into legal terms, statutory rape law is designed to protect minors from adults and to charge them appropriately for their crime. Taking advantage of a minor is something I would consider to be dehumanizing and brutal as well.

I think there is a place in the law for the type of behavior outlined in the articles but I don't feel Rape is an appropriate term. Intercourse under false pretense or something may fit better and I can see that being something that should be prosecuted under the right circumstance.

To classify this as rape though, it just doesn't sit right with me knowing rape victims.
 
I look forward the the inevitable Supreme Court case deciding what constitutes "material deception".
 
As a legal concept I do think it needs a place. But, there is a huge but here. I'm scared of what it means towards trans folks. By that I mean bigots who use it as an excuse to kill/violently beat a woman (or man) and then use this defense to get off. Its happened before, which is why I'm so wary.
 
azyless said:
Hmm, okay. I can see where you're coming from. I feel like trans people have to be the one disclosing this if things are about to move further, or not if they don't want to. It feels like everyone would be more comfortable that way to me honestly but maybe that's not the case.
And I do see trans women as women, but sex is about more than gender, to me at least. I don't want to be crude but if I got surprise PIV that I was not expecting, nor wanted at any point, then that would be rape for me. I can have sympathy for trans people afraid to disclose very personal information, I can have sympathy for trans people getting assaulted for disclosing it before the act, I can't have sympathy for rapists though, sorry if that's crossing a line.
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Like I asked someone else, is a cis person raping a trans person if they don't disclose that they are cis?

Whiteblade999 said:
As a legal concept I do think it needs a place. But, there is a huge but here. I'm scared of what it means towards trans folks. By that I mean bigots who use it as an excuse to kill/violently beat a woman (or man) and then use this defense to get off. Its happened before, which is why I'm so wary.
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That's what it comes down to - such a legal clarification only exists to solve a very rare problem, but also results in the worsening of a much worse problem.
 
Euphor!a said:
I'm not.
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Then what exactly is murky here? This is the conversation for context.

Matt said:
Well then there is no deception here. Unless a woman who was biologically born a man tells anyone they might sleep with that that is not the case, no one has lied about anything.
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Euphor!a said:
You can say that all you want, but just like the 1000's of other examples in this thread, it is a murky area.
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The only topic of discussion I'm even seeing is whether or not women assigned the male sex at birth disclosed that fact.
 
azyless said:
Hmm, okay. I can see where you're coming from. I feel like trans people have to be the one disclosing this if things are about to move further, or not if they don't want to. It feels like everyone would be more comfortable that way to me honestly but maybe that's not the case.
And I do see trans women as women, but sex is about more than gender, to me at least. I don't want to be crude but if I got surprise PIV that I was not expecting, nor wanted at any point, then that would be rape for me. I can have sympathy for trans people afraid to disclose very personal information, I can have sympathy for trans people getting assaulted for disclosing it before the act, I can't have sympathy for rapists though, sorry if that's crossing a line.
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Oh for the love of god.

So you're okay with a trans person getting assaulted if they don't say it before the act? If a woman drops her panties and you see a dick, you're being raped? It's not like she'd be flipping you over and putting it inside you.

See- I'm of the opinion someone should probably share these details before hand. But you're saying that if they don't tell it until the other person until the clothes are off, they're rapists? Because you get to see a penis?
 
BreezyLimbo said:
Tbf if a man/woman wants to be with a woman/man, then yeah the assumption should be theyre cisgendered.
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that assumption only comes from us being in a cis normative (and particularly anti trans) society.

We're conditioned to think it makes sense 100% of the time. But if we find ourselves attracted to a woman or a man because they look like (in our minds) a person born as a woman or a man, who's fault is that?

Especially if you had sex and only found out because they (or some other source) told you AFTER (which happens often).

We have the privilege of making assumptions that the people we're attracted to are cisgender because most people are cis gender. I'm not saying failing to disclose that is 100% faultless, but I'm not going to say I don't understand (to the extent that I can as a cis male) nor empathize
 
A Link to the Past said:
Like I asked someone else, is a cis person raping a trans person if they don't disclose that they are cis?
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Did the trans person expressed clearly their intention to never have sex with a cis person?
Did the cis person insist they were not cis upon being probed about it?
Did the cis person lie about being cis?
Did the trans person felt the disclosure of their partner's gender status was enough to press charges?

The answers to all this will ultimately determine if this was rape in any given occassion.

Sure, i beleive youre a complete asshole if you are cis and refuse to have sex with someone because they are trans.

But in the end, i repeat, anybody has their right to say "NO" to sex for any given reason they please.
 
Cocaloch said:
Then what exactly is murky here. This is the conversation for context.





The only topic of discussion I'm even seeing is whether or not women assigned the male sex at birth disclose that fact.
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Then feel free to read previous posts until it clicks or you can figure it out I guess.
 
Some obviously hard to defend instances and others that are more murky; what about claiming you are single when you are actually married?

I've been in that scenario; literally told at the point I dropped them off a block from the house she shared with her husband.
 
Yayate said:
Oh for the love of god.

So you're okay with a trans person getting assaulted if they don't say it before the act? If a woman drops her panties and you see a dick, you're being raped? It's not like she'd be flipping you over and putting it inside you.

See- I'm of the opinion someone should probably share these details before hand. But you're saying that if they don't tell it until the other person until the clothes are off, they're rapists? Because you get to see a penis?
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Hum what ? This is exactly what I'm talking about, what don't you understand about PIV ?
 
I think that "Rape by deception" is too broad as some sort of de facto rule or legal precedent, especially with some of the cases in the OP, but that tricking someone into having sex with you is still bad... I just think that every case of this could be so different that broadly covering it under a large legal precedent that deceiving someone before having sex is, by necessity, rape is too broad.
 
PSqueak said:
Did the trans person expressed clearly their intention to never have sex with a cis person?
Did the cis person insist they were not cis upon being probed about it?
Did the cis person lie about being cis?
Did the trans person felt the disclosure of their partner's gender status was enough to press charges?
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Do cis people express their intention to never have sex with a trans person?
Do trans people insist they are not trans upon being probed about it?
Do trans people lie about being trans?

Like I don't get this point, it implies that trans people try to trick people into having sex with them. I mean if you're saying that's the limit in all situations and that it's not rape for a trans person to have sex w/ a cis person w/o disclosure, then fine
 
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