It wasn't just "not negative" for Erdogan. He was completely ready with a whole massive list of purges and policies to be implemented within days. That's a man who was prepared and knew what was coming and was ready and able to take full advantage.Extraordinary claims require extraordinary evidence. Do you have any apart from the coup plotters being morons and something not negative happening to Erdogan?
Erdogan is the bad guy in the West since he started to have an independent policy. But most people don't care about Turkey anyway. Outrage over democracies issues strictly depend of your pro/independant/anti-western stances.
I think most of people in the arab/muslim world (Erdogan is one of the most popular political leader of the muslim world) perceived it as the success that didn't occur in their own countries. The normal outcome is that society elect a political leader that goes too much against the military class, the military overrule the civilian power and it's the end of story. In that case, it didn't occurred because Erdogan (even anti-Erdogan turks here will confirm) have a STRONG popular support in Turkey and in a large part of the army.
And to respond to OP, it's totally stupid and dangerous to support a military coup because you don't like the current government. I don't think having a political opinion is terrorism, though, but it's clearly anti-democratic. With all it's flaws, the actual turkish government is the only legitimate government in Turkey. Wanting a military coup to get rid of authoritarianism is like burning your house when you're cold. If the coup had succeeded, it would have been bad for ALL turkish society, like it was in the past. It's why the main opposition party (CHP) have marched against the coup.
So if you don't like that government, vote and campaign for the opposition and try to change it by the rules. Is it possible in Turkey unlike most countries in the region.
As somebody who live and have south americans roots, i'll take the worst elected civil presidency over military rule any time.
Erdogan is the bad guy in the West since he started to have an independent policy. But most people don't care about Turkey anyway. Outrage over democracies issues strictly depend of your pro/independant/anti-western stances.
I think most of people in the arab/muslim world (Erdogan is one of the most popular political leader of the muslim world) perceived it as the success that didn't occur in their own countries. The normal outcome is that society elect a political leader that goes too much against the military class, the military overrule the civilian power and it's the end of story. In that case, it didn't occurred because Erdogan (even anti-Erdogan turks here will confirm) have a STRONG popular support in Turkey and in a large part of the army.
And to respond to OP, it's totally stupid and dangerous to support a military coup because you don't like the current government. I don't think having a political opinion is terrorism, though, but it's clearly anti-democratic. With all it's flaws, the actual turkish government is the only legitimate government in Turkey. Wanting a military coup to get rid of authoritarianism is like burning your house when you're cold. If the coup had succeeded, it would have been bad for ALL turkish society, like it was in the past. It's why the main opposition party (CHP) have marched against the coup.
So if you don't like that government, vote and campaign for the opposition and try to change it by the rules. Is it possible in Turkey unlike most countries in the region. If CHP win the next presidential election, Erdogan is gone.
As somebody who live in South America and have south americans roots, i'll take the worst elected civil presidency over military rule any time.
I'd agree with much of what you say about the ethics of my stance on this, but I think whether Erdoğan's government is "legitimate" is an open question. The same goes for the freedom of speech and freedom of press that would let me campaign through legal/official channels.
I swe your first point.Legitimacy is always relative, but what is the alternative ? It's like in the US with Trump. Many people here would probably says that they would like a military coup against Trump, because they don't know what a dictatorship feel like. Just look at the what happens in Egypt, everybody in the West was super-happy that Morsi was kicked out in the name of secularism, to be replaced by what ? A dictator who have 80.000 political prisoners and who criminalize homosexuality and atheism. With the current atmosphere in Turkey, a dictatorship will use religion as well. So it won't be good for secularism as well.
Democracy is about accepting the game, even if the other side play dirty. Look at Tunisia for instance. They made their arab spring, kicked out Ben Ali, an islamist coalition was elected, then they made an alliance with secularists, and now secularists are in power again. Maybe the next election, islamists will win again, or maybe it will be the secularists. What we need is political pluralism and civil representation.
Is CHP outlawed in Turkey ? There was a very mediatized march recently in Istanbul. What impede you to join the CHP and make campaign for them ?
The latest in an ongoing saga.
However I am broadly in favour of Erdogan's removal providing that some kind of return to secular norms was to follow.
With all it's flaws, the actual turkish government is the only legitimate government in Turkey.
Junior officer coups are unlikely to succeed which means they are almost always a miscalculation. The speed with which the coup failed indicates it wasn't even close. That Erdogan happened to be nowhere near the capital is a bizarre detail -- a successful coup would certainly need to arrest or kill Erdogan, so performing one while he is absent makes no sense. The person who has more to gain from this miscalculation is Erdogan, not Gulen. This is of course not dispositive, it's entirely possible the planners were just bad at their jobs, but in the absence of reliable reporting, I know where my prior is on who to blame.
Side note: the scapegoating of this coup attempt as a premise to reintroduce the death penalty is barbaric and a further erosion of Turkish liberalism; a naked consolidation of power by an autocrat. Erdogan is not a legitimate leader, so a coup against him is not intrinsically illegitimate.
Yeah, he is the bad guy for wanting his own policy.... Of course not because he is putting religion front and center again in Turkey, wants the death penalty back, imprisoned 50.000 people and fired 150.000 and counting in a purging of the education and justice system, for trying to give himself more power and picking fights with European countries that divide immigration groups there.Erdogan is the bad guy in the West since he started to have an independent policy. But most people don't care about Turkey anyway. Outrage over democracies issues strictly depend of your pro/independant/anti-western stances.
Avatar checks out.There were some attack in the Hotel he was in, they were trying to capture him.
Avatar checks out.
Autocrats are by definition not legitimate in no matter what country they rule. They may be the best possible option for order, they may be the best possible option for peace, but they are by definition not legitimate. Legitimacy is derived by consent, and in the absence of fair, free, and open democracy there is no consent. This is true even if the population does appear to broadly support their autocrat. The coup might also, of course, lack legitimacy. "Might makes right" can never be the moral underpinning of legitimacy.
For the last one though, the existence of a march doesn't discredit the Turkish government's crackdown on political dissidence in the last several years.
Yeah, he is the bad guy for wanting his own policy.... Of course not because he is putting religion front and center again in Turkey, wants the death penalty back, imprisoned 50.000 people and fired 150.000 and counting in a purging of the education and justice system, for trying to give himself more power and picking fights with European countries that divide immigration groups there.
Regarding the Gulen accusation, I've heard a few times on news radio, podcast, etc, that Turkey has yet to provide any credible evidence to implicate Gulen. But I don't know what other organizations could orchestrate it and never heard any credible alternatives
"Turkey? It's a country and a food? Huh."
-American view
He was seen positively in Western medias in the 2000´s, he started to being heavily criticized when he started to affirm a strong regional policy, what they called "neo-ottomanism".
I think that most critics against Erdogan are legitimate, even if i don't agree with all of them, but what i am pointing out is double standard. Long friends of the West like Egypt don't receive half the smear of what Erdogan receive and they actively torture and kill political opponents, without pretending to any kind of democratic legitimacy. Why are they receiving a special treatment (mostly silence) ? Because they constantly align with Western interests.
According to DemocracyIndex (by the Economist), Turkey didn't change radically between 2006 and 2016. But the image of the country radically changed in the Western media in the same period.
That's what happens when you jail journalists and have leader that picks fights with other countries. Should the Germans and Dutch like being called nazis and fascists by this dude or something? Should we like his political meddling he does within the Turkish immigrant communities here?He was seen positively in Western medias in the 2000´s, he started to being heavily criticized when he started to affirm a strong regional policy, what they called "neo-ottomanism".
I think that most critics against Erdogan are legitimate, even if i don't agree with all of them, but what i am pointing out is double standard. Long friends of the West like Egypt don't receive half the smear of what Erdogan receive and they actively torture and kill political opponents, without pretending to any kind of democratic legitimacy. Why are they receiving a special treatment (mostly silence) ? Because they constantly align with Western interests.
According to DemocracyIndex (by the Economist), Turkey didn't change radically between 2006 and 2016. But the image of the country radically changed in the Western media in the same period.
Where did this come from?it exposes the ludicracy of US foregin relations and one of the reasons i didnt vote Clinton was her support of this style of warfare, of backing terrorists to fight terrorists. the US is both at war and not at war depending on what is politically convenient.
this is all standard US operating procedure. throwing guns and money at a problem of our own making. look at Operation Cyclone in the 80s, when we fought the Russians by creating the Taliban.
don't know if I missed it, but so far there were no real evidence presented that the coup was indeed planned/initiated by Gulen("-Group") or?
Either it was instigated by erdogan himself he acted way to fast purging opposition. Or he knew it was being planned and let it happen. Then the coup leaders are amateurs, to not go for erdogan first and let him rile up the people from his plane.
Thank you dear neighbor.Yeah, he is the bad guy for wanting his own policy.... Of course not because he is putting religion front and center again in Turkey, wants the death penalty back, imprisoned 50.000 people and fired 150.000 and counting in a purging of the education and justice system, for trying to give himself more power and picking fights with European countries that divide immigration groups there.
The coup was coordinated in a Whatsapp group, that's how well planned it all was.
Erdogan is the best thing to have happened to Turkey? You talk like as if his successes weren't already laid out for him from previous administrations mishaps.What are you even trying to add to this thread? You know just because you don't support Erdogan doesn't mean you are right.
Erdogan is still the best thing that has has happened for alot of people in Turkey, many people now have access to social services.
While I didn't support his Yes/No vote for that parliamentary thing, I still think that there are no better options out there. And aslong as CHP keeps screwing up there will be no change.