Fucking what???? Is there a source for this?
Erdogan is the best thing to have happened to Turkey? You talk like as if his successes weren't already laid out for him from previous administrations mishaps.
What are you even trying to add to this thread? You know just because you don't support Erdogan doesn't mean you are right.
Erdogan is still the best thing that has has happened for alot of people in Turkey, many people now have access to social services.
While I didn't support his Yes/No vote for that parliamentary thing, I still think that there are no better options out there. And aslong as CHP keeps screwing up there will be no change.
Any double standard related to other countries has nothing to do with my question. "But what about Egypt?????" deflects from the discussion at hand.
What The Economist's Democracy Index is not telling you about is the Islamist rhetoric and attempts at bigoted legislation that's plagued this country since 2013 or thereabouts. An opposition media still exists, but long-running opposition newspapers and magazines HAVE been shut down by a surge of legal cases brought up against them, had their executives investigated of links to the organization of the coup, or in Zaman's case, literally invaded and seized by men under Erdoğan's command.
Parliament Speaker Ismail Kahraman unexpectedly sparked controversy in Turkey when on April 25 he declared that Turkey's new constitution should forgo mention of ”secularism" and instead be a ”religious constitution" referencing God. His words reignited Turkey's always tense ”secularism debate," which has been amplified since 2002 when the Justice and Development Party (AKP) came to power. Kahraman's remarks led to protests in a number of cities, a call by the main opposition leader for him to resign and allegations by secular pundits that the Speaker had shown the AKP's ”true face," its ”real intentions." Because Kahraman is a known confidant of President Recep Tayyip Erdogan, many also suspected that his statement was part of a scheme being orchestrated by Turkey's leader.
Erdogan is willing to not abolish Turkey's constitutional secularism, as some fear, but rather to use religion in the most effective way.
In the next two days, however, the major figures in the AKP disowned Kahraman's position on a ”religious constitution." The AKP's Mustafa Sentop, chairman of parliament's constitutional commission, said that Kahraman's view was not a ”party stance" and that ”secularism is preserved in our constitutional draft." Prime Minister Ahmet Davutoglu asserted, ”In the new constitution that we are preparing, the principle of secularism will be included." He added that it would be a ”liberal interpretation" of secularism, not an ”authoritarian" version. In also addressing the controversy, Erdogan not only professed support for secularism, but even offered an inspired defense of the principle.
Defining secularism as the state's ”obligation to stay at an equal distance to different faith groups," he explained why it is a good idea: ”If the faith of all religious groups in this country is guaranteed in the constitution, and the state's equal distance to all religious groups is a foundation, why do you need to emphasize Islam? If I can live my faith as a Muslim the way I want to, the issue is over. If a Christian can live his/her Christianity, if a Jew can live his/her Jewishness or an atheist can live his/her atheism, the issue is also over for them."
Read more
Can you explain why this is supposed to be pretty normal?Zaman is a newspaper controlled by Gulen so it's pretty normal that they were shut down.
Autocrats are not elected.
This is simply not true.
Can you explain why this is supposed to be pretty normal?
Erdogan is clearly pulling more power towards him. Is he a dictator at this moment? No. But the way he acts shows there is a real danger he wants to be one. I just don't get why you want to make excuses for this guy, since you say you acknowledge the things he is doing wrong, like limiting freedom of press, jailing people, firing people and trying to gain more power.
Let's remember that Erdogan was jailed because he read a poem. So, many improvements have occurred.
German comedian Jan Böhmermann could face prison for 'smear poem' against Turkish President Erdogan
Cafeteria manager jailed for insulting Turkey's Erdogan, lawyer says
Turkish authorities have arrested the cafeteria manager of the opposition Cumhuriyet newspaper for insulting the president after he said he would not serve tea to Tayyip Erdogan, one of the manager's lawyers told Reuters on Monday.
Cartoonists Bahadir Baruter and Ozer Aydogan, from the Turkish satirical magazine Penguen, have been found guilty of insulting Turkeys President Recep Tayyip Erdogan in a cartoon on the cover of the magazines August issue.
Turkish schoolboy arrested for 'insulting' President Erdogan
Turkish police have arrested a 16-year-old high school student in the city of Konya on charges of insulting President Tayyip Erdogan, local media reported on Thursday.
Ex-Miss Turkey sentenced for insulting Erdogan
A Turkish court has convicted a former Miss Turkey of insulting President Recep Tayyip Erdogan, giving her a 14-month suspended prison sentence.
1,845 Erdoğan insult cases opened in Turkey since 2014
Erdoğan has been accused of aggressively using a previously seldom-used law that bars insults to the president, as a way to muffle dissent.
Muslim rhetoric or conservative politics is not against democracy. You also failed to recall that a senior AKP member talked about changing the secular aspect of the constitution, and Erdogan publicly denounced him and affirm his faith in secularism. I don't understand how you can be islamist and wanting to maintain the secular character of the constitution in the same time:
The fact that you equate the prayer organized to commemorate the failed coup as "are we doing jihad?" tell a lot about the two Turkey who don't want to live together, and don't know each other.
Zaman is a newspaper controlled by Gulen so it's pretty normal that they were shut down. Honestly i don't know if Gulenist are behind the failed coup, but his group was certainly REALLY late to condemn the coup attempt. US condemn it first, and they were pretty late themselves. I mean, Gulenist were the first suspect, why they waited that the coup failed completely (late in the night) to condemn it ?
The other attacks against freedom of press are well known and i acknowledge them. However, it doesn't make Turkey a dictatorship. You can go in the street and buy one of the most popular news outlet and you'll find heavily anti-Erdogan/AKP rhetorics. You can put on the TV and you'll find the same thing. You can vote for the next election and Erdogan is gone.
Are you fucking serious right now?
http://www.independent.co.uk/news/p...-poem-against-turkish-president-a6972356.html
http://www.reuters.com/article/us-turkey-security-detentions-idUSKBN14F0S6
https://cartoonistsrights.org/two-more-turkish-cartoonists-facing-prison/
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/wor...arrested-for-insulting-President-Erdogan.html
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-europe-36419723
And that's the tip of the iceberg of people who have been imprisoned due to Erdogan's thin skin. Not to mention journalists who dare to do their jobs. Such suppression has actually skyrocketed under him:
https://www.theguardian.com/world/2...efends-allowing-1845-insult-cases-to-go-ahead
Schoolchildren. Cartoonists. Poets. These are the enemy according to Erdogan. "Improvements" my ass.
You can be an Islamist by deliberately tying religion into your country's politics. Throwing a party member under the bus for being more overtly Islamist than you are doesn't mean you'd immediately become perfectly secular. Does invoking Islam as a central point of your political stance sound secular to you? Does making bigoted and judgmental statements on subjects like abortion and tying them to religion point, in any way, that Erdoğan is a person to be trusted with the presidency of any country? Can a President who permits the dismissal of evolution from high school curricula on the basis of "it's arguable and too complex" really ensure his country effectively implements secularism? Is a President who FORCIBLY BROADCASTS a political message through private communication channels AND mentions Allah in that message the sort of person that should rule a democratic and secular country?
Secularism is not about not mentioning religion, or not having religion as the fundament of your political positionment.
...
Secular - denoting attitudes, activities, or other things that have no religious or spiritual basis.
İnsulting somebody is a strict arbitrary standard. Don't try to paint Erdoğan as any sort of victim here. French laws have nothing to do with the issue at hand. If both are EQUALLY bad, then why are you trying to distinguish Erdoğan's reasons for imprisonment from those he himself charged?It's ridiculous and awful, but it's not the same thing at all.
Erdogan was jailed because he read a political poem, not because he insulted the current head of state. Let's remember that it's forbidden in many western democracies like France. Somebody got 1 month of jail because he insulted Sarkozy. Another man was charged of a 100 euro fine for saying "Sarkozy, i see you".
It's equally bad and i condemn both, but it's not the same nature. Erdogan was jailed by strict arbitrary standards, not because he insulted somebody.
Is USA a secular country ? I can totally see something like this happening in the States.
Mentioning Allah is worst than mentioning God ? In what sense ? God is everywhere in US politics, the country is still secular and democratic.
Secularism is not about not mentioning religion, or not having religion as the fundament of your political positionment.
About that political message broadcasted 1 year after the events, it's perfectly understandable. It's a major turn in turkish history. Of course, if you think it was a false flag by Erdogan himself there is no much to discuss...
Prayers about the coup is not political. There is nothing political about going down in the street and defending your elect governement against a military coup. It's patriotism and the defense of the democracy as a whole. It's why many anti-Erdogan have also protested and all political parties have sided against the coup.
I'll came back later to reply to your others questions.
2. Waiting on the proof that Zaman is a Gülen-run newspaper. Don't use a Turkish news source.
4. Hoo boy, it's the "you have democratic elections so you have NO RIGHT TO COMPLAIN ABOUT THE JEOPARDIZATION OF DEMOCRACY WHATSOEVER!" argument once again.
Come again when suspicious power cuts during election day are no longer literally blamed on cats.
Come again when the opposition viewpoints are given an equal time of day as Erdoğan's viewpoint in any election or referendum campaign.
Come again when there are no more reports of blatant election fraud (in one case even holding people at gunpoint) and never to meet repercussions, always committed by Erdoğan supporters.
Come again when not every single action of political dissidence like the Justice March is called "supporting terrorism".
Come again when we haven't just had the first anniversary of Turkey's state of emergency that lets Erdoğan go wild with purges and bills as he pleases.
Again, I know that Turkey is still a technically secular and democratic country. That does NOT mean that Erdoğan cannot pose any danger to these properties of a prospering democracy. Erdoğan CAN do undemocratic and non-secular things, and CAN be unfit to lead a secular country given his deeply religiously bigoted personality. That Turkey is still secular and democratic (to an extent) under Erdoğan doesn't mean we should ignore everything he's done to undermine those two traits of the Turkish Republic.You're saying that that kind of stuff cannot occur in a democratic/secular country, i'm pointing out that it does and it don't change the secular/democratic character of those country. Your statement just call for comparison. And also you cannot have your own definition of secularism and we should all subscribe to it. Speaking about God or using piety is not against secularism. Secularism is about the power structure, not the people using them.
I would point out the flaws of AKP/Erdogan if i was speaking to a pro-Erdogan audience, as i regularly does. Here on GAF, there is absolutely no need for it.
Political Islam is not different from political christianity. The party of Merkel is called Christian Union. Is this a red flag too ? It's why the term "islamist" don't mean much. You can't put in the same bag Erdogan and the Muslim Brotherhood or Khomeini. Every ideology is so different that you cannot group them together. There is nothing that point out that Erdogan will one day announce that the Turkish republic is over and now you will be ruled by the Diyanet (state-religious authority).
Patriotism is political, you're right. But i was speaking about partisan politics. It's perfectly fine that every church/mosque/whatever goes out to defend the society against a military coup. Everybody should stand against a military coup to defend an elected civil power. I would do so even to defend somebody of the "other side". To be clear, i rather have a CHP elected government than an AKP in office by a military coup.
You have the absolute right to speak and fight against it.
In June, emails leaked from the personal account of Abu Dhabi's ambassador to Washington, Yousef al Otaiba, revealed that the Gulf nation could have played a greater role in last summer's failed coup than originally anticipated.
The emails showed that Otaiba was in close contact with senior officials from the Foundation for Defense of Democracies (FDD), a US-based think-tank primarily financed by the pro-Israel businessman Sheldon Adelson. An exchange between the UAE ambassador and John Hannah, a senior counsellor at the foundation, provided valuable insights into Abu Dhabi's relationship with the coup plotters in Turkey.
In one of the leaked emails, Hannah, a former deputy national security adviser to former Vice President Dick Cheney, sent Otaiba an article claiming that both the UAE and FDD were responsible for the July 15 military coup attempt in Turkey, saying he is "honoured to be in the UAE's company".
(...)
Also, in an article published by Middle East Eye in July last year, British journalist David Hearst claimed that the UAE had set aside significant funds to ensure that the coup attempt in Turkey would be successful. He alleged that Mohammed Dahlan, acting on behalf of the UAE government, delivered money to FETO operatives. Last month, Turkish Foreign Minister Mevlut Cavusoglu told the press that a Muslim country had spent $3bn on efforts to overthrow the Erdogan government, adding weight to the claims that the UAE funded last year's coup attempt.
It's ridiculous and awful, but it's not the same thing at all.
Erdogan was jailed because he read a political poem, not because he insulted the current head of state.
Turkish opposition politician jailed for 25 years on spying charges
Enis Berberoğlu is first CHP lawmaker imprisoned since lifting of immunity last year, in move condemned as ‘intimidation'
Erdogan was jailed by strict arbitrary standards, not because he insulted somebody.
100 years of secularism because Turkey feared that religion would be used for wrong and exactly what we are seeing now, but Golden_Pigeons solution is that "everybody will have to live together". Problem solved I guess.
https://www.theguardian.com/world/2...itician-jailed-spying-charges-enis-berberoglu
Nope, not political at all!
*Irony meter explodes*
Berberoğlu, the first CHP lawmaker to be handed prison time since the lifting of parliamentary immunities last year, was accused of providing an opposition newspaper with video purporting to show Turkey's intelligence agency trucking weapons into Syria.
If you think anything about Turkey's current situation is "very moderate", hooo boy. Hoooo boy.It was an authoritarian secularism, and a very vertical one. There was no acknowledgment of the diversity of the turkish society. Now we got the backfire. I think it's a very moderate backfire, giving the violence and the radicalism of turkish blend of authoritarian secularism, even worse than the pahlavi in Iran.
If you think anything about Turkey's current situation is "very moderate", hooo boy. Hoooo boy.
The islamic character of the AKP is very moderate. No mention of the shari'a whatsoever. It's on par with the Ennahda movement in Tunisia.
Okay guys I think I need a reality check here because I don't think literally making your audience chant "Allahu Akbar!" in a rally that's supposed to open an art exhibit suggests that anything about AKP's Islamism is "moderate". Islam is a central pillar of AKP's ideology, and also given other things like the spread of Imam Hatip schools, its one of AKP's prioritized agendas. That isn't "very moderate" to me.
If for you "Allahu ackbar" is a sign of radicalism, everything muslim will be extreme anyway.
If you take all the political parties in the world who have some root in political islam, AKP is one of the more moderate. Even the Saadet Partisi is quite moderate, but it's the more extreme in the turkish political landscape. It's not AKP which is extremist, it's the turkish state which is extremely secularist.
Compare the AKP to the PLO (which is considered secular because of Hamas), and PLO is way more islamic than AKP.
I think we'll just be on permanently different wavelengths if you see religious chanting in a political meeting as anything but extreme.
How AKP fares compared to other Islamic parties doesn't matter, to me it's still unacceptable.
It's not arbitrary since he was accused of leaking sensitive and classified video:
What the difference between that and Snowden/Manning etc.. ? I mean, you can say that it's a great thing to do, that the state action should be exposed etc... but it's still a felony to publicize secret documents.
Edit: I do think it's condemnable that Erdogan press charges on people insulting him, so i don't have to justify it. If i follow the cases actually, he finally drop a good part of the cases. I don't think it have nothing to do with dictatorship either, many people don't know that it's actually illegal in most countries to insult someone.
PLO is considered secular because of the socialist connection, not Hamas.Compare the AKP to the PLO (which is considered secular because of Hamas), and PLO is way more islamic than AKP.
PLO is considered secular because of the socialist connection, not Hamas.
The National Charter has no reference to religion. Under President Arafat, the Fatah-dominated Palestinian Authority adopted the 2003 Amended Basic Law, which stipulates Islam as the sole official religion in Palestine and the principles of Islamic sharia as a principal source of legislation.[22] The draft Constitution, which never materialized, contains the same provisions.[26][27] At the time, the PLC did not include a single Hamas member. The draft Constitution was formulated by the ″Constitutional Committee″, appointed with the approval of the PLO.[28][29]
And you fail to address the point again. How can you pretend "things have improved" when Erdogan himself has aggressively used a previously unused law to suppress dissent? You lament him being imprisoned for reading a poem but shrug off him doing the same to others. How many hundreds of political prisoners must there be before even your cognitive dissonance cracks?
All this effort, just to defend another run-of-the-mill autocrat.