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[DJ_Lae]

Here is the test. Look at this image on your Xbone through Internet Explorer or whatever.

Do you see 4 distinct columns or just a white box and a black box?

I see four, although the two black ones look very close. I must have my TV settings slightly off.

They're incredibly distinct on my PC.

 

[Jtrizzy]

nvidia cards are known to not display full RGB. you might have to use a third party tool to get it working.

They finally added the toggle a few updates ago. I'd been using Durante's fix for four years prior.

 

[Two Words]

People that have always played with broken RGB settings and like the "pop" remind me of one of those prisoners in Plato's Cave allegory. They just gotta get out of the cave with their crushed black shadows and seek enlightenment in that glorious full RGB light.

http://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Allegory_of_the_Cave

 

[Vintage]

That's weird, on my macbook pro I can see the white and clear grey just fine, but on the otherside I just see a black box.

The same for me, iMac.

 

[Hypron]

Yeah, I had to turn the brightness way up to see distinct black boxes.

Yeop my ipad is crushing the black here.

i see 4 distinct colors on my mbp.

I found the issue. The default "display profile" crushed the blacks. I used the inbuilt calibration tool and now I can see all four boxes. On the other hand, it also changed the colours. I'm not sure how accurate they are... It'd be good to have a calibration probe to test the accuracy.

 

[UVG RAVEN]

Here is the test. Look at this image on your Xbone through Internet Explorer or whatever.

Do you see 4 distinct columns or just a white box and a black box?

Holy shit I just did the test on both my PS4 and Xbox One (both set to "full") and only on the PS4 was I able to see 4 distinct columns!

 

[Sobriquet]

I did the test on my Xbox. Both it and my TV are set to PC. Only saw two boxes. Switched the Xbox to Standard and I could see all four. Weird. Now I'll be able to see inside caves in Dragon Age! Hopefully.

 

[Pristine_Condition]

The same for me, iMac.

Time to calibrate your iMac.

 

[Jawbreaker]

This page has a bunch of images that are good for testing black level, contrast, etc..

You should be able to see each individual square against the black background here, for example (if you're using full range/PC Mode/Monitor).

 

[Knuf]

I personally don't have a Xbone but I do have a Panasonic home-theatre that definitely crushes the blacks of all the devices passed-through its hdmi-in: I had to plug my PS4 directly to the tv because of the ugly output I got, but oddly enough image quality of my Wii U seems to be fine instead.
How can people not notice or say that they prefer black crushes is beyond me.

 

[Kalliban]

Why are people using the full setting? Games for the X1 are developed for limited, and movies and tv-shows use limited as well. If you use the limited setting (it's called TV on the X1 I think? At work now, so can't check), you will get a correct range. It's probably due to the name right? "Limited" sounds like it's worse than "Full", but it really isn't.

I have never seen a TV that can't display the limited (16-235) color range, but I've seen a lot of TVs that can't display the full (0-255) color range. The issue seems to be the worst for people that use incompatible settings (i.e. full on the X1, limited on the TV or similar), and it seems the best when both X1 and TV are set to use the limited color range.

If you experience black crush, try the limited color range and reconfigure your TV and see if it's still there. If you're using a PC monitor to play on, then I don't know since they are usually created for the full color range.

 

[PetriP-TNT]

It's broken by design. People like the pop.

I mean look at this:

https://www.google.com/#q="PS3+version"+"washed+out"

 

[kitch9]

I personally don't have a Xbone but I do have a Panasonic home-theatre that definitely crushes the blacks of all the devices passed-through its hdmi-in: I had to plug my PS4 directly to the tv because of the ugly output I got, but oddly enough image quality of my Wii U seems to be fine instead.
How can people not notice or say that they prefer black crushes is beyond me.

I can't understand why they don't provide reference levels and just give the pop guys instructions on how to enable showroom mode on their tv.

 

[nib95]

It's broken by design. People like the pop.

Then those people should just use Dynamic or Vibrant mode on their TV's, but to manipulate the original source with it is a terrible idea. I'm quite surprised this hasn't been sorted yet, because it was my understanding that the artificial edge enhancing had been remedied. No idea why they couldn't fix both issues together.

 

[Ape]

Pc sees all four. iPhone sees only three. idk whats going on with my phone's color calibration.

 

[dark10x]

When using "TV" color space, as they label it, the XO is not broken. It works as expected using the REC 709 color space. It does not inherently crush blacks or blow out whites. It's up to developers to create their content for this standard and any deviation will result in issues. It is recommended to use the "TV" or limited RGB output with Xbox One for this reason.

Holy shit I just did the test on both my PS4 and Xbox One (both set to "full") and only on the PS4 was I able to see 4 distinct columns!

The "full" or "PC" color space IS actually broken, however.

While it does work in the sense that it re-adjusts the system to produce colors that don't appear washed out on a full RGB display, it does not properly adapt REC 709 color space to full RGB and you wind up with missing information. Anything under 16 or above 235 will be clipped on Xbox One.

So, really, you absolutely must be using the "TV" or limited mode with the system for the best results. Even still, that isn't 100% reliable as some games will still have issues.

It's a pretty messed up situation.

 

[PetriP-TNT]

Then those people should just use Dynamic or Vibrant mode on their TV's, but to manipulate the original source with it is a terrible idea. I'm quite surprised this hasn't been sorted yet, because it was my understanding that the artificial edge enhancing had been remedied. No idea why they couldn't fix both issues together.

Generally the people who like "the pop" do not know the difference between "Dynamic", "Vibrant", "Game mode" or "pineapple" modes. That's the whole point of making it the default, even when it's screws up the end result.

 

[nib95]

Pc sees all four. iPhone sees only three. idk whats going on with my phone's color calibration.

Not to take the discussion in a different direction, but honestly Apple's screen tech is highly overrated. I'm using a Spyder calibrated Macbook Pro Retina, and I'm still stunned at all the praise this screen got. Ok so it's a higher resolution and does exude clarity (with the right resolution text and images), but overall accuracy as a result of the piss poor contrast and black levels still leaves a heck of a lot to be desired.

Sometimes I wonder if the units Apple send to Anandtech and other sites are specially calibrated and tailored one's that do better in tests than real world mass produced examples would. In contrast, the screen on my Galaxy Tab S and S5, compared to my iPad and iPhones, are leagues ahead when set on the correct colour profiles.

 

[Withnail]

Why are people using the full setting? Games for the X1 are developed for limited, and movies and tv-shows use limited as well. If you use the limited setting (it's called TV on the X1 I think? At work now, so can't check), you will get a correct range. It's probably due to the name right? "Limited" sounds like it's worse than "Full", but it really isn't.

I have never seen a TV that can't display the limited (16-235) color range, but I've seen a lot of TVs that can't display the full (0-255) color range. The issue seems to be the worst for people that use incompatible settings (i.e. full on the X1, limited on the TV or similar), and it seems the best when both X1 and TV are set to use the limited color range.

If you experience black crush, try the limited color range and reconfigure your TV and see if it's still there. If you're using a PC monitor to play on, then I don't know since they are usually created for the full color range.

This is correct. Devs use ISF calibrated displays and that means 16-235. There is absolutely nothing to gain from RGB Full, in fact if you set your contrast and brightness for 0-255 you're just wasting dynamic range.

 

[dark10x]

Pc sees all four. iPhone sees only three. idk whats going on with my phone's color calibration.

Which iPhone? I'm viewing it on an iPhone 6 Plus and all four are perfectly visible.

This is correct. Devs use ISF calibrated displays and that means 16-235. There is absolutely nothing to gain from RGB Full, in fact if you set your contrast and brightness for 0-255 you're just wasting dynamic range.

Yet it is necessary in some cases. Many capture cards won't support anything other than RGB and some PC monitors are limited to RGB as well. I agree that it's not necessary to use, however, in most cases.

 

[Jawbreaker]

When using "TV" color space, as they label it, the XO is not broken. It works as expected using the REC 709 color space. It does not inherently crush blacks or blow out whites. It's up to developers to create their content for this standard and any deviation will result in issues. It is recommended to use the "TV" or limited RGB output with Xbox One for this reason.


The "full" or "PC" color space IS actually broken, however.

While it does work in the sense that it re-adjusts the system to produce colors that don't appear washed out on a full RGB display, it does not properly adapt REC 709 color space to full RGB and you wind up with missing information. Anything under 16 or above 235 will be clipped on Xbox One.

So, really, you absolutely must be using the "TV" or limited mode with the system for the best results. Even still, that isn't 100% reliable as some games will still have issues.

It's a pretty messed up situation.

Was it a similar situation with the 360? Because that system had a problem with crushed blacks as well. What is it exactly that Microsoft is doing incorrectly? It hasn't been an issue with the PS3 or PS4.

 

[dark10x]

Was it a similar situation with the 360? Because that system had a problem with crushed blacks as well. What is it exactly that Microsoft is doing incorrectly? It hasn't been an issue with the PS3 or PS4.

Yes, it was an issue there too.

Microsoft decided to target REC 709 (basically the normal TV color space) and games are designed to target that as well, it seems. It's not a hardware issue at all, rather, a software choice. The whole Xbox gamma ramp seems to be rather different from the standards people normally work with as well so there are special considerations that must be taken into account when designing for it, I believe.

 

[Gamesadict]

This page has a bunch of images that are good for testing black level, contrast, etc..

You should be able to see each individual square against the black background here, for example (if you're using full range/PC Mode/Monitor).

Ohh, this is really useful. Thank you.

 

[old manatee]

I wouldn't accept the crushed blacks and clipped highlights. It is super noticeable.

 

[Ape]

Which iPhone? I'm viewing it on an iPhone 6 Plus and all four are perfectly visible.


Yet it is necessary in some cases. Many capture cards won't support anything other than RGB and some PC monitors are limited to RGB as well. I agree that it's not necessary to use, however, in most cases.

Just the regular iPhone 6. I'm going to check out that larger palette of greys the other guy posted later on my phone when it's done charging. Wonder what's up with that.

 

[Jawbreaker]

Yes, it was an issue there too.

Microsoft decided to target REC 709 (basically the normal TV color space) and games are designed to target that as well, it seems. It's not a hardware issue at all, rather, a software choice. The whole Xbox gamma ramp seems to be rather different from the standards people normally work with as well so there are special considerations that must be taken into account when designing for it, I believe.

Would this be a good summary then? It's in relation to the 360, but by an ex-Naughty Dog dev in regards to the gamma curve. It seems to be the culprit there, and with what you're explaining, would also be what's causing it on the Xbox One.

 

[Mechazawa]

The "full" or "PC" color space IS actually broken, however.

While it does work in the sense that it re-adjusts the system to produce colors that don't appear washed out on a full RGB display, it does not properly adapt REC 709 color space to full RGB and you wind up with missing information. Anything under 16 or above 235 will be clipped on Xbox One.

So, really, you absolutely must be using the "TV" or limited mode with the system for the best results. Even still, that isn't 100% reliable as some games will still have issues.

It's a pretty messed up situation.

So if Full is busted, what do you recommend I do on a PC monitor? Stick with Limited regardless?

 

[PetriP-TNT]

Would this be a good summary then? It's in relation to the 360, but by an ex-Naughty Dog dev in regards to the gamma curve. It seems to be the culprit there, and with what you're explaining, would also be what's causing it on the Xbox One.

Yep, that's it. Also see this (which was already posted in this thread) http://www.valvesoftware.com/publications/2008/GDC2008_PostProcessingInTheOrangeBox.pdf.

I pointed it out in the first "Killer Instinct crushed blacks" threads but while the oversharp scaler has been fixed (has it?), there has been no change with these.

 

[derFeef]

So if Full is busted, what do you recommend I do on a PC monitor? Stick with Limited regardless?

Yes.

 

[c0de]

When using "TV" color space, as they label it, the XO is not broken. It works as expected using the REC 709 color space. It does not inherently crush blacks or blow out whites. It's up to developers to create their content for this standard and any deviation will result in issues. It is recommended to use the "TV" or limited RGB output with Xbox One for this reason.


The "full" or "PC" color space IS actually broken, however.

While it does work in the sense that it re-adjusts the system to produce colors that don't appear washed out on a full RGB display, it does not properly adapt REC 709 color space to full RGB and you wind up with missing information. Anything under 16 or above 235 will be clipped on Xbox One.

So, really, you absolutely must be using the "TV" or limited mode with the system for the best results. Even still, that isn't 100% reliable as some games will still have issues.

It's a pretty messed up situation.

What is the default setting on xbone?

 

[ArchAngel]

Wasn't the IE on XBO an exception on black crush? I read somewhere that BC is only with scaler, like in games?

 

[virtualS]

This has been a 100% intentional design choice for the best part of a decade. It's terrible but inexplicably many people like the boosted contrast. They don't understand that lots of detail is lost to black.

Can't imagine game artists are too happy. That is, if they know.

 

[Timu]

What is the default setting on xbone?

Limited.

 

[iMax]

It has been like this since 2005 on Xbox 360, so I wouldn't expect a fix anytime soon. It's clearly not a priority.

 

[iMax]

This has been a 100% intentional design choice for the best part of a decade. It's terrible but inexplicably many people like the boosted contrast. They don't understand that lots of detail is lost to black.

Can't imagine game artists are too happy. That is, if they know.

Of course they know. That's why they put gamma sliders in their games to counteract it.

 

[Terbinator]

nvidia cards are known to not display full RGB. you might have to use a third party tool to get it working.

Using a Titan here and all four columns are visible on 'Full' setting both through NVCP and my TV

Then those people should just use Dynamic or Vibrant mode on their TV's, but to manipulate the original source with it is a terrible idea.

Dear God no. The Sony implementation of 'gamemode-standard' on my TV is fucking awful.

I'm quite surprised this hasn't been sorted yet, because it was my understanding that the artificial edge enhancing had been remedied. No idea why they couldn't fix both issues together.

Well that particularly targetted the sharpening filter being done by the scaler. As mentioned above, MS specifically appear to outline that devs should target Limited for mass comparability.

While it does work in the sense that it re-adjusts the system to produce colors that don't appear washed out on a full RGB display, it does not properly adapt REC 709 color space to full RGB and you wind up with missing information. Anything under 16 or above 235 will be clipped on Xbox One.

Personally I find the non-washed out image more pleasing. Switching between full and limited on FH2 is like night and day.

 

[AndyMoogle]

nvidia cards are known to not display full RGB. you might have to use a third party tool to get it working.

They've added a setting for that now in the control panel. By default it will be limited when you connect to a TV, but you can change it to full.

 

[Slackbladder]

My X1 definitely has black crush on standard input. I see two white levels but the black is crushed (my PC shows all four fine on same TV). On PC RGB it's just white block/black block. So yeah, not working.

 

[VE3TRO]

Has anyone tried the calibration pictures through the Media Player app? I placed the pictures on a USB stick then had a look. I can see all the blocks up to number 2. I can adjust the gamma by +1 to see number 2 but it looks a little too bright. When it comes to the whites though I can only see to 249.

 

[Purest 78]

The "full" or "PC" color space IS actually broken, however.

While it does work in the sense that it re-adjusts the system to produce colors that don't appear washed out on a full RGB display, it does not properly adapt REC 709 color space to full RGB and you wind up with missing information. Anything under 16 or above 235 will be clipped on Xbox One.

So, really, you absolutely must be using the "TV" or limited mode with the system for the best results. Even still, that isn't 100% reliable as some games will still have issues.

It's a pretty messed up situation.

If I'm not mistaken don't you work for Digital foundry? If so why haven't you guys made a article addressing this issue? I don't think many know how much detail they're losing with crushed blacks.

 

[Lockjaw333]

I didn't know this was a thing...

First I learn that Nvidia didn't fix this in their GPUs until very recently...

There was a similar thread about this for PS4 yesterday...

And it sounds like XBox One has the worst case of it...

Nvidia's issue was different. They just simply didn't have a Limited option if using RGB with an HDMI connection. You had to change it to YCBCR 444 if using HDMI. Recent driver update finally added Limited for HDMI after years of people asking for it.

With the X1 (and 360), its just messed up. There is a wacky gamma curve that crushes the lower handful of levels above black on Limited, and RGB full just doesn't display anything below 16, its completely cut off.

In my experience, the PS4 doesn't have any sort of problem, it displays Limited and Full correctly, it just sometimes mismatches them if you use the "Auto setting".

 

[Angel_DvA]

Just the regular iPhone 6. I'm going to check out that larger palette of greys the other guy posted later on my phone when it's done charging. Wonder what's up with that.

Regular Iphone 6 here and I can see all of them, maybe your Iphone is broken lol.

 

[Fleshfeast]

Here is the test. Look at this image on your Xbone through Internet Explorer or whatever.

Do you see 4 distinct columns or just a white box and a black box?

I have my Xbox One connected to a PC monitor via HDMI. I've been running it on PC RGB because it's a PC monitor, and I see a white box and a black box. I changed the color space to Standard, and now I see 4 distinct bars. Shouldn't I have it set to PC RBG if I'm using a monitor?

 

[EatMyFace]

Phil Spencer likes crushed blacks.

 

[lowhighkang_LHK]

I have my Xbox One connected to a PC monitor via HDMI. I've been running it on PC RGB because it's a PC monitor, and I see a white box and a black box. I changed the color space to Standard, and now I see 4 distinct bars. Shouldn't I have it set to PC RBG if I'm using a monitor?

Normally yes. But thats where the xone is fucking up, for example if u had a ps4 connected to it it should be set to full.

 

[Izuna]

I have my Xbox One connected to a PC monitor via HDMI. I've been running it on PC RGB because it's a PC monitor, and I see a white box and a black box. I changed the color space to Standard, and now I see 4 distinct bars. Shouldn't I have it set to PC RBG if I'm using a monitor?

Your image is going to be washed out on your monitor.

You can't win.

 

[Fleshfeast]

Your image is going to be washed out on your monitor.

You can't win.

Yea, I've tried setting it to standard on the Xbox end, and it always seems washed out. Then I spend 30-60 minutes messing with settings, start wondering if it's just that I'm using a cheap monitor that trades color quality for response time, and then I always end up back where I started with crushed blacks because it looks better to my eyes than it being washed out.

 

[Stop It]

Not to take the discussion in a different direction, but honestly Apple's screen tech is highly overrated. I'm using a Spyder calibrated Macbook Pro Retina, and I'm still stunned at all the praise this screen got. Ok so it's a higher resolution and does exude clarity (with the right resolution text and images), but overall accuracy as a result of the piss poor contrast and black levels still leaves a heck of a lot to be desired.

Sometimes I wonder if the units Apple send to Anandtech and other sites are specially calibrated and tailored one's that do better in tests than real world mass produced examples would. In contrast, the screen on my Galaxy Tab S and S5, compared to my iPad and iPhones, are leagues ahead when set on the correct colour profiles.

Well subjectively the screen on my partners iPad Air is spectacular, but I'm going to try this RGB test out of curiosity.

My new LG G3 displays full RGB however, which is nice. At home my Panasonic G30 is not capable of full RGB but my Sony Bravia EX723 is. As stated, so long as you have the Xbox and 360 set to limited, you're fine but full RGB is severely broken and aught to be fixed.

 

[Lima]

I have my Xbox One connected to a PC monitor via HDMI. I've been running it on PC RGB because it's a PC monitor, and I see a white box and a black box. I changed the color space to Standard, and now I see 4 distinct bars. Shouldn't I have it set to PC RBG if I'm using a monitor?

Well yeah that is the issue. The Xbox is actually outputting values lower than 16 when using limited when it shouldn't and is clipping values lower than 16 when using full where it should actually display then. No matter what you do you just can't win with this system.

It's almost like they swapped limited and full output around and fucked up all of it. I imagine the dog not good with computer picture. Please help.

 

[SEGAvangelist]

Your image is going to be washed out on your monitor.

You can't win.

I'm going to have to try this out again. When I tested it on my computer monitor full fange seemed to work just fine. The only issue I have with full range is when I select it when hooked up to my TV. My TV doesn't have a manual adjustment setting for color range (it's automatic), and for some reason the TV doesn't recognize it's receiving a full range image with Xbox One.