What you're missing here is that you can artificially make any game look like "Xbox colors". It's bad when it happens at the source level which is why people are complaining.
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How is Xbox One's RGB output still broken?
- Thread starter Lima
- Start date
Cranberrys
Member
I was talking about Skyrim on PS3. The whole game is washed out. On 360, it's vivid and the darkness is indeed very good.
Right now and since winter 2013, I'm using a Sony KDL-55W905. I customize the "Game Original" setting.
Picture settings :
Backlight : 5
Contrast : 90
Brightness : 50
Color : 60
Hue : 0
Color : 60
Sharpness : 50
Color temperature : Neutral
Noise Reduction : Off
MPEG Noise Reduction : Off
Dot Noise Reduction : Off
Reality Creation : Off
Video Area Detection : Off
Smooth Gradation : Low
Motionflow : Off
Film Mode : Off
Black Corrector : Off
Advanced Contrast Enhancer : Off
Gamma : 0
LED Dynamic Control : Standard
Auto Light Limiter : Off
Clear White : Off
White Balance : all values to 0
Live Color : Off
Detail Enhancer : Off
Edge Enhancer : Off
Display Speed Preference : On
Other TV settings relative to PQ :
x.v Color : Normal
Dynamic Range : Full RGB
Power Saving : Low
Scene Select Sync : On
Super Bit Mapping : On
Xbox One : PC RGB & 8bit per pixel. Xbox 360 : RGB Expanded. PS3/PS4 : Full RGB & Deep Color Off.
Using the same kind of console settings on both Xbox & PlayStation, with the exact same TV setting, the same game doesn't look the same on screen and I'm not talking about resolution or frame rate but just the visual rendition (color, vividness and stuff like that). I really don't understand why. When I'm using my old blu ray player (a Sony 505) and my new one (a Samsung BDH6500) with the same cinema settings, the movies look the same with negligible differences regardless of the player.
Because Since the 360, they're using a funky RGB space, which results in crushed blacks etc, and is just too far from the standard one to compensate for in any way. The only way it can be fixed (not even sure completely) is by the devs to adjust for it.
The reason you see no difference with your BD players is that no matter what, movies use the "limited" RGB range.
See, here's your problem. Unless your TV is in a room with office lighting, you really ought to lower this. I would ~65 is a good average but I'm sure you can find good settings for the TV somewhere online (like on AVforums). It will appear dim at first, but once you get used to it you'll have a much better contrast ratio.
But anyway, if that's the case with the PS3 Skyrim, then you're not really preferring crushed blacks. You would get what people are complaining about if you kept your settings and then switched your TV to Limited. Hardly any games on the Xbone have this issue anymore.
There's no problem with that setting on that particular TV set, I have the same one and it's recommend to be between 90-max on all calibrated settings.
crazepharmacist
Member
Wait, wait wait. This issue still exists? Even on Xbox One S?
What. The. Fuck.
So If I want accurate picture detail, (meaning non-crushed blacks), that is impossible right now?
What. The. Fuck.
So If I want accurate picture detail, (meaning non-crushed blacks), that is impossible right now?
I also use Standard for gaming, prefer a more colourful and brighter image when playing games. For everything else it's cinema mode and warm however.
Guessing the One S hasn't fixed this issue? I missed out on the 2TB so I've got the 1TB on pre-order but doesn't arrive until end of Septemeber.
Guessing the One S hasn't fixed this issue? I missed out on the 2TB so I've got the 1TB on pre-order but doesn't arrive until end of Septemeber.
Eh
I personally can't find any and I very much doubt that.
EDIT: mods, this thread isn't exactly relevant anymore since only some older titles and apps (like IE) have an issue with black crush...
Don't worry. Unless you play CoD:AW or BF4... I can't think of many titles that still have a serious issue. Xbox One S has another issue however with HDR content.
If you look at any images with the media viewer or IE (is it IE on Xbox or Edge?) you'll have black crush.
RGB/Full + consoles + TV is just a nightmare and asking for trouble. My TV can't auto sense limited/full inputs and I run everything through a receiver to a single hdmi in so I've standardised on properly calibrated 'limited' across all devices and am super happy with the result and recommend it to anyone.
I'll leave this here for you then:
https://www.avforums.com/threads/sony-kdl-w905a-owners-thread-part-3.1791303/
Not sure why it's so hard to believe, it's exactly the same for W7, W8 and W9 series. 90 contrast is the minimum you'll see.
Interesting. I've never come across something like that before. I can't imagine many people would pick such a screen out at a computer store if it would most likely have the dimmest picture.
It's not a plasma. The most prominent control to how much light the screen emits is the backlight value. I don't know how this is surprising to you.
The few TVs and Monitors I have personally helped calibrate just tend to have lower contrast settings. I thought it was just relatively standard, that's all.
Honestly one of the reasons I'd never get an Xbox One is because of the RGB issue, it'd bother me to no end.
My personal opinion with contrast is to bump it up as high as possible without crushing the whites (or the colors), then drop the backlight so that you don't destroy your eyes. Do it right, and you'll get a comfortable white with a nice dark black, with zero crush.
The main risk is that the colors might be wrong, but colors are always wrong if you don't have a professional calibrator so w/e. If in doubt, just drop the color(s) a bit.
The Asus VE228H monitor I currently have goes up to 80 contrast without crushing whites. Most Dell monitors I've played with go up to 75 contrast. An LG HDTV I once used could go all the way up to 100 contrast without crushing white.
My personal opinion with contrast is to bump it up as high as possible without crushing the whites (or the colors), then drop the backlight so that you don't destroy your eyes. Do it right, and you'll get a comfortable white with a nice dark black, with zero crush.
The main risk is that the colors might be wrong, but colors are always wrong if you don't have a professional calibrator so w/e. If in doubt, just drop the color(s) a bit.
Tokubetsu
Member
This is the principle I use as well. Bump it as high as it can go before you start losing an uncomfortable amount of major detail in whites/lighter colors.
This is the same MS who purposely killed off millions of TV Skype cameras in one hit by simply stopping one of their servers responding to a ping.
Absolute shit stain of a company.
M the same but be careful with Amazon Fire TV sticks, I don't know why but mine uses the RGB Full setting.
HomerSimpson-Man
Member
The better tvs get with black levels and contrast the crappier the output becomes since it gets more glaringly terrible looking in comparison crushing detail. Its mainly due to limits of poor LCD tech when the 360 first came out of yesteryears they over compensated. That "pop" becomes a donkey turd.
BeforeU
Oft hope is born when all is forlorn.
lmao that theme got me.
I have no clue why that guy bumped this thread in the first place. "Guys it's not that bad. I like that pop'
Okay?
JayhawkerStL
Banned
People that obsess over black crush are like the guys the guys on AVS that demand everyone tune their TVs to look like dingy crap, because it is more pure.
People like what they like. It's sad to see how far some will go to tell people they are wrong for liking it. I play primarily sports games, and every year people are complaining about how muted games look on the Playstation versus the Xbox.
But yeah, redefining what looks good to people is probably the way to go.
SMH...
People like what they like. It's sad to see how far some will go to tell people they are wrong for liking it. I play primarily sports games, and every year people are complaining about how muted games look on the Playstation versus the Xbox.
But yeah, redefining what looks good to people is probably the way to go.
SMH...
Diablohead
Member
There are times where black crush can ruin a game, playing a level which is set to a dark area or night time? black crush can really ruin it, Alan Wake 360 on xbox one for example but they fixed this now.
Transistor
Banned
I wonder what the odds that Scorpio is gonna have a proper gamma curve
Liabe Brave
Member
No one is redefining what looks good to people. It's about having a choice. With accurate output from the console, you can change settings on your display to get either the look you prefer, or the "dingy" look others prefer. When the console output is inaccurate, no amount of fiddling will restore the "washed out" look.
Exactly contrary to your complaint, it's actually the "black crush in output is fine" position which is dictating what other people are allowed to see.
JayhawkerStL
Banned
I don't buy a console for flexibility. I buy one that works out of the box like I hope. PCs are a much better place to take a stand on the issue of choice. Because the folks complain about how sports games look on the PS3 and PS4 don't feel like they had a "choice."
I've never had issues playing a single game on the 360 and XB1 because it was too dark. but I have seen what purists on AVS consider great picture quality, and I'm less then impressed.
According the OP, I'm the problem, not just a consumer that has a preference. That's not "choice."
I've never had issues playing a single game on the 360 and XB1 because it was too dark. but I have seen what purists on AVS consider great picture quality, and I'm less then impressed.
According the OP, I'm the problem, not just a consumer that has a preference. That's not "choice."
You realize that if Xbox gave a shit (about having better looking sports games??), they could just create a toggle and leave you the old, "more impressive" false gamma right? Like Default/Full/Limited
JayhawkerStL
Banned
Yeah, I feel the same way about Sony.
thatJohann
Member
Based on all the research I've done it seems PC RGB on Xbox one should be avoided as it's still broken gamma curve and that we should use Limited (Recommended) regardless if your tv supports full range RGB.
However interestingly enough, it seems that the limited setting on Xbox one actually pushes a full RGB (0-255) range AFTER you launch a game (NOT in dashboard which makes calibration impossible with Xbox's calibration tool in settings).
So confusing. Not sure why MS hasn't addressed this yet. I never had these issues with PS4.
I got it to look like the captures look online at least. Since I always noticed captures looked darker than it looked on my TV. Looks like this now:
However interestingly enough, it seems that the limited setting on Xbox one actually pushes a full RGB (0-255) range AFTER you launch a game (NOT in dashboard which makes calibration impossible with Xbox's calibration tool in settings).
So confusing. Not sure why MS hasn't addressed this yet. I never had these issues with PS4.
I got it to look like the captures look online at least. Since I always noticed captures looked darker than it looked on my TV. Looks like this now:
This is what I ended up with as well when I had been calibrating and trying things for ages. It seems like Xbox One RGB naming is reversed or something. So I use HDMI black level low on TV and Limited on Xbox One. That way I get perfect blacks and whites. Either other combination ends up with crushed blacks or grey whites/washed out picture.
Here is the test. Look at this image on your Xbone through Internet Explorer or whatever.
Do you see 4 distinct columns or just a white box and a black box?
On my "normal" settings (or the settings I'm used to), I see a white column, a grey column, and a giant black square. However, if I switch my HDMI black level from "low" to "normal", I see a dark grey colum on the far right. Is that normal? I'm no AV expert, but I feel like 16 shoudl be darker than 0.
This page has a bunch of images that are good for testing black level, contrast, etc..
You should be able to see each individual square against the black background here, for example (if you're using full range/PC Mode/Monitor).
For this test, I only see the last thee or four squares with my HDMI black level set to "low", but I see all the squares if I set it to "normal". I guess that means I should just keep it set to "normal".
thatJohann
Member
Exactly. Using limited and hdmi low works best. I'm getting inky blacks and clear whites. Looks just like the captures so I'm happy for now:
Wolfgang Jr
Banned
It's now a feature! HDR!!
Yes, you need yours set to Normal. HDMI Black level Low means full RGB on Samsung TV's, but obviously something doesn't work correctly in your setup.
My Sony TV is set to Full RGB and XB1 is set to limited, can see all squares that way.
The Xbox One app is another matter, there's black crush on my monitor no matter what settings i use on the Xbox One. My monitor is set to full RGB and i can view all those squares fine when connecting through Displayport to my 1070.
Must be a certain Gaffer who loves "dat pop."
thatJohann
Member
Wait, is this true!? I thought hdmi black level Normal was Full on Samsung TVs.
No, TV standard level has always been limited in the past. Therefore, it is "normal."
thatJohann
Member
Holy shit this changes everything for me lol. I had been using it wrong all along on PS4.
Gotcha. So on samsung tv, HDMI black level low = full RGB. *mind blown* gotta recalibrate
I launched Black Ops 1 to see what the brightness adjustment screen looks like now and I had to turn the game's brightness all the way down for the "not visible" box to disappear. Does that mean anything?
vatstep
This poster pulses with an appeal so broad the typical restraints of our societies fall by the wayside.
GOD DAMN IT, not this shit again. I spent literally hours configuring my setup the other day on my new TV and now I'm going to be thinking about black levels again...
RE: Samsung TVs I'm pretty sure they fixed the reversed naming convention on newer models/firmware (that thread linked is three years old). I have my PS4 set to Limited and TV set to Low on one input, and Xbox One S set to Standard and TV set to Low on the other input. Everything looks right, and I was able to replicate black crush and cloudy blacks when mismatching the settings, so I know I found the right balance for my display.
By the way, the Xbox One S only has Standard and PC RGB options for output. Y'all keep referring to it as Limited I'm not missing something, am I?
RE: Samsung TVs I'm pretty sure they fixed the reversed naming convention on newer models/firmware (that thread linked is three years old). I have my PS4 set to Limited and TV set to Low on one input, and Xbox One S set to Standard and TV set to Low on the other input. Everything looks right, and I was able to replicate black crush and cloudy blacks when mismatching the settings, so I know I found the right balance for my display.
By the way, the Xbox One S only has Standard and PC RGB options for output. Y'all keep referring to it as Limited I'm not missing something, am I?
sir_dany12
Member
So for me to able to see all the black boxes on that image I have to set my tv to Normal HDMI level. Its a Samsung 4k Tv.
But all the black are really brighter.
What shoud I do?
But all the black are really brighter.
What shoud I do?
thatJohann
Member
As a recap, If you have a Samsung TV and an Xbox One S, you should use:
Xbox One S - Standard
Samsung TV - HDMI Black Level Low
Perhaps your TV brightness is too high? Have you calibrated it?
VE3TRO
Formerly Gizmowned
So I recently ditched the 46" Samsung LED for a Asus VG248QE to use as my main gaming screen but even that looks horrid with PC RGB. I just can't see any benefits to using it. No adjustments helped.
I wish Microsoft would put back in the YCBCR 709/601 options like Xbox 360 had, I used to use 701 on a few games since it looked better for them.
I wish Microsoft would put back in the YCBCR 709/601 options like Xbox 360 had, I used to use 701 on a few games since it looked better for them.
Pagusas
Elden Member
0 is pure black, 16 is dark grey.
its a 0 - 255 scale, 0 being pure black, 255 being pure white (with the RGB scale)
With standard video 16 is pure black and 235 is pure white. Anything above or below is refered to as "blacker than black and whiter than white". Often times things WILL get encoded into those for some displays to show, such as white caps on a lake, or very minute shadow detail.