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How long before PS3 manufacturing cost matches 360's

The question seems silly. Neither company is going to tell is exactly how much it costs to produce their console so we'll never know if/when the two costs are the same.

My answer? 42.
 
garrickk said:
Maybe it was done - but poorly - from what little we've been told. I'm responding to the reports that people put thermocouples in their 360's and found temperatures way out of spec near the major silicon that warped the PCB. A larger and better designed heatsink fixes this? How in the hell could they not have detected that if they performed any due diligence in their engineering?

Maybe there were/are other problems as well. Maybe ATI changed the mask on the chip for fabrication and it increased current leakage at one point which created a thermal variation large enough to cause problems. I don't know.

Does the machine not have temperature sensors on board and on chip so that it could be throttled or shut off to prevent thermal damage? All of the cheap power circuitry I work with do, although my FPGA's do not. I thought all modern processors include this.

The MS engineers might have focus on the chip temperatures and not system values. I don't know. Just a guess. It took 1.7 months to get a bigger heatsink though, right? How would you explain this?

If the PCB warps more then a little, any large BGA chip is screwed regardless of lead-free solder or not (leaded solder is slightly more flexible and forgiving). I had to go through a lot of RoHS/WEEE training and discussions two years ago. If this was a problem, returned 360's should have been X-rays and the integrity of the BGA balls determined. My small contract manufacturer could do this afterall. I don't know what the hell went wrong with the 360 - all bad guesses. Sorry.
Click to expand...

garrick, to be fair to MS, they, or at least the front-line engineers, probably knew about the thermal dissipation problems six months in.

What probably happened was that the company chose to deny and/or hide the problem to avoid bad press.

As far as risk mitigation is concerned, they might have thought that any current losses due to RROD or other system failures was minimal compared to the negative PR and loss of momentum. But they probably didn't know it would mushroom to this big of a problem.

From what I understand and heard about Microsoft, it is a very hiearchical company. The engineers can't just say "we have a significant defect with our product" six months in without management blackballing their suggestions.
 
Kamakazie! said:
No it won't and here are the reasons:

- Built in WiFi

- nVidia has Sony by the balls when it comes to the RSX. Cell failed to provide the graphical performance that Sony expected and they made a rushed deal with nVidia to provide a graphics solution. They were basically allowed to charge whatever the hell they wanted and it will not go down as quickly as it would do in the usual life cycle of a console.

- The chassis of the PS3 will be notably more expensive to manufacture.
Click to expand...
Yeah ok... The leading Game Manufacture announces they are using Nvidia Graphics chip 2 years before the machine is even released and NVidia has then by the balls? Don't make me laugh. Thank you for pulling that out of your ***.

If anything wouldnt NVidia be begging Sony for the contract since MS rejected them.
 
I don't know where I got the impression but common sense tells me that MS designed the internal hardware around a preset form factor (the concave box) instead of the other way around or a concurrent design process.

@Kamakazie!: You should try watching the SOny E3 2005 press conference again. There's tons of really great HW info. in that presentation.
 
garrickk said:
If the PCB warps more then a little, any large BGA chip is screwed regardless of lead-free solder or not (leaded solder is slightly more flexible and forgiving). I had to go through a lot of RoHS/WEEE training and discussions two years ago. If this was a problem, returned 360's should have been X-rays and the integrity of the BGA balls determined. My small contract manufacturer could do this afterall. I don't know what the hell went wrong with the 360 - all bad guesses. Sorry.
Click to expand...

you're playing Monday morning qb. It's easy to point out the obvious once the problem is known.

when you have boxes coming in that wont run PGR3 the first thought is not to run out and do a board level respin.
 
tanod said:
NAND has the potential to be much smaller while platter disc drives are pretty much as small as they're ever gonna get.

IIRC, NAND is just flash, correct?

My brother is an electrical/hardware/software engineer. I'm just trying to remember what little I've picked up over the years.
Click to expand...

Yes, NAND is just flash. It's the current implementation of all non-volatile memory based devices. What probably changed is the reliability, efficiency, and cost of these devices.

The interface (ie. how the HDD connects to the computer) to the best of my knowledge was still SATA based.

EE in nanotech here
 
60_gig_PS3 said:
you're playing Monday morning qb. It's easy to point out the obvious once the problem is known.

when you have boxes coming in that wont run PGR3 the first thought is not to run out and do a board level respin.
Click to expand...

I sure hope you aren't being a deliberate troll here.

When modders and enthusiasts identified the problem themselves, you know there's a problem somewhere.
 
SRG01 said:
I sure hope you aren't being a deliberate troll here.

When modders and enthusiasts identified the problem themselves, you know there's a problem somewhere.
Click to expand...

you really think modders were the first to identify this failure?

Anyway, I like my job so time for me to stay out of this thread. It's just...painful to watch.
 
60_gig_PS3 said:
you really think modders were the first to identify this failure?

Anyway, I like my job so time for me to stay out of this thread. It's just...painful to watch.
Click to expand...

Don't put words in my mouth. I said that modders found the problem themselves, not that they found it first.
 
tanod said:
NAND has the potential to be much smaller while platter disc drives are pretty much as small as they're ever gonna get.

IIRC, NAND is just flash, correct?
Click to expand...
Yeah, there are NAND or NOR FLASH designing camps. Each have their own merits and raced for many years on how quickly the gates could be shrunk and how things could be streamlined.

A NAND gate is a group of transistors that perform a logical NOT AND function. If a "1" and "1" is inputted to the gate, you get a "0" out. By combining these structures intelligently, you can store a bit. Very basically, the structure loops back to itself recursively to "store" a bit. A single input can flip the logic value that is looped back to "store". And this looped back value, or the stored value, can be checked obviously.

A NOR gate is a group of transistors that performs a logical NOT OR function. If either of two bits submitted to the inputs of the gate are "1", you get a "0" out. It's a similar building block to a NAND gate actually. These are the two basic building blocks for a lot of complex logic.

I suggest to anyone interested in this kind of crap to go to a University bookstore or website and buy a ECE101 textbook. The math is NOT high level, but the basic building blocks with probably be fascinating to you. You can buy an outdated revision on Half.com for a few bucks I'm sure.

I just had my wisdom teeth removed so I'm home bored and in discomfort typing away...
 
SRG01 said:
garrick, to be fair to MS, they, or at least the front-line engineers, probably knew about the thermal dissipation problems six months in.

What probably happened was that the company chose to deny and/or hide the problem to avoid bad press.

As far as risk mitigation is concerned, they might have thought that any current losses due to RROD or other system failures was minimal compared to the negative PR and loss of momentum. But they probably didn't know it would mushroom to this big of a problem.

From what I understand and heard about Microsoft, it is a very hiearchical company. The engineers can't just say "we have a significant defect with our product" six months in without management blackballing their suggestions.
Click to expand...
This is probably all very true.
 
60_gig_PS3 said:
you're playing Monday morning qb. It's easy to point out the obvious once the problem is known.

when you have boxes coming in that wont run PGR3 the first thought is not to run out and do a board level respin.
Click to expand...
I might have sounded that way, but I strongly believe that X-raying the PCB and focusing on suspect BGA pins is one of the first lines of analysis. They must have done this. When I called up my contract manufacturer with a problem, it's one of the first recourses suggested.

Bringing it up really speaks to SRG01's point. MS engineers probably knew the problems and it just took too much time properly resolve them. Are they resolved now, btw? We might not know for 3-4 months.

I guess I should split my ire between management and engineering. Regardless, the revolving door service department should infuriate everyone. And they actually charged some people for that. Unprecedented.
 
After I think about it a bit more, I'd like to recant a bit.

X-raying the PCB most certainly will tell you if the BGA balls of solder properly reflowed to the PCB correctly. I don't know for certain that the fidelity of the image is good enough to determine if once properly reflowed solder hasn't broken.

To check during and post manufacturer if your board in reflowing properly and all solder connections are good, the BGA chips can be X-rayed. They have little pins underneath them each with little balls of solder pre-applied. These flow onto the PCB. They are usually tightly arranged in a perfect grid under the chip in .65mm or .5mm spacing. Therefore, they can only be viewed with X-ray. If the chip is big enough, and the PCB bends enough, these little ball/pin connections to the PCB can break and you can't detect them.

All other chips with external pins are optically analyzed (at least a certain percentage is fully inspected).

I came into this thread upset with everyone pulling shit out of nowhere and ended up doing it myself. Naturally.
 
painful fart said:
Some engineers caused this:
Xbox360-ringofdeath.jpg

and have not been able to fix it for 1.5 years. Respect? My ass is the kind of respect they deserve.
Click to expand...


EvilBetty150.jpg


Q: What do you get when you cross an owl with a bungie cord?

A: The kind of respect Microsoft and ATI engineers deserve!
 
Yeah ok... The leading Game Manufacture announces they are using Nvidia Graphics chip 2 years before the machine is even released and NVidia has then by the balls? Don't make me laugh. Thank you for pulling that out of your ***.
Click to expand...

subract the delay and you are down to 1.5 years - i don`t think it is a secret that sony had a different solution provided in conjunction with a different company and it was certainly a surprise to a number of people at Sony at the time that they suddenly were moving to a new graphics chip.

Whether Nvidia has Sony by the balls is another matter - but the move to nvidia was definitely a late in the day change , so whether the payments reflect that or not i`m not sure. Perhaps Nvidia`s financials will give a hint?
 
Sony Halves PS3 Costs
Japanese giant finally looks set to make a profit on hardware sales.

UK, January 15, 2008 - Sony has managed to bring production costs of the PS3 down to around $400, a near halving of the initial $800 it took to manufacture the machine upon its launch at the end of 2006.

The drop, as reported by *****, can likely be attributed to a continuing simplification of the PS3 components and features. With both the 20GB and 60GB models being phased out, and with more readily available Blu-ray technology and the loss of backwards compatibility on the now-standard 40GB model, Sony can finally look to make a profit on each console sold.

Whether this will filter down into a cut of the retail price is unlikely in the near future, though after a rough 2007 it will at least put smiles back on the faces of Sony executives.
Click to expand...
http://ps3.ign.com/articles/845/845541p1.html?RSSwhen2008-01-15_021800&RSSid=845541

It continues.

I thought someone would post it by now but since I didnt see It I guess I'll post it here
 
My prediction was that in two years the manufacturing cost would be comparable. One more year to go SONY, make it happen.
 
What's with all the "mass production" talk?

It's not like every PS3 until now was hand made. The componants were already mass produced.

There will be more production in the future, I guess, but 360 components will also be dropping in cost too.
 
Drek said:
The PS3 meanwhile is using largely new technology, Blu-Ray and Cell both have a lot more work that can be done to refine the designs and reduce costs. It won't catch the 360's older, established hardware but it could shorten the gap fairly quickly assuming the PS3's components see mass market applications.
Click to expand...

Talk out of your ass much? Fabricating the Cell is the same as fabricating all CPUs, the number of transistors is important, not how they are used. Also the PS3 cell has one disabled SPU which bring the cost down (ie. one SPU can be non-working and the chip is still used). The 360 has a GPU with embedded eDRAM, so that is "established" now?

The only real differences is the BD drive, the HD in the PS3 cost the same as the HD in 90% of the 360s, only the Arcade SKU benefits from lower cost in that respect.

Sony got to a 65nm CPU at the same time as MS, despite the 1 year head start. If you inspect the mother board of the 40GB and compare it to the original 60GB it's far different, so it's clear Sony has much experience. If you look at the Anandtech comparison of the Falcon to the original, not much has changed.
 
Evander said:
What's the source on that article?

The fact that they mentioned cutting out the BC software as cost savings really hurts their credibility. The Software only emulation had no marginal cost associated with it.
Click to expand...

:\

It wasn't software-only until the 40GB. The Euro and 80GB PS3s had PS2 graphics hardware in them.
 
Evander said:
What's the source on that article?

The fact that they mentioned cutting out the BC software as cost savings really hurts their credibility. The Software only emulation had no marginal cost associated with it.
Click to expand...
Such a thing has never been a part of any PS3 SKU. Be a bit more careful with what you call a fact please, some poor loser might end up believing what you say, and nobody wants that.
 
DeadGzuz said:
Talk out of your ass much? Fabricating the Cell is the same as fabricating all CPUs, the number of transistors is important, not how they are used. Also the PS3 cell has one disabled SPU which bring the cost down (ie. one SPU can be non-working and the chip is still used). The 360 has a GPU with embedded eDRAM, so that is "established" now?

The only real differences is the BD drive, the HD in the PS3 cost the same as the HD in 90% of the 360s, only the Arcade SKU benefits from lower cost in that respect.

Sony got to a 65nm CPU at the same time as MS, despite the 1 year head start. If you inspect the mother board of the 40GB and compare it to the original 60GB it's far different, so it's clear Sony has much experience. If you look at the Anandtech comparison of the Falcon to the original, not much has changed.
Click to expand...

It's insane, really. I mean who would thought that a hardware company would be able to cost reduce its hardware so quickly?
 
Evander said:
What's with all the "mass production" talk?

It's not like every PS3 until now was hand made. The components were already mass produced.

PS3 components are expensive because they arent produced in large enough quantities (economies of scale). New technology drops in price fast when its successful. Got it? Well that the reason blu-ray was so expensive.


There will be more production in the future, I guess, but 360 components will also be dropping in cost too.

Yeah but they dont fall at the same speed. Hence why the PS3 cost has reduced dramatically while the 360 cost of manufacturing has been more steady
Click to expand...
I also want to point out that the PS3 has more standard pieces than the 360. The more you produce of something the cheaper it gets. HDMI for example was an expensive item to include but has now become cheap for these manufactures to do so.

gcubed said:
half past never
Click to expand...
Well according to that article I just posted it looks like they are quite close. In a few years they may even be cheaper ;P
 
Sony may move to 45 NM later this year?

Information provided through the ISSCC 2008 program are brief, but the document - which was posted earlier this month on the ISSCC website – offers some insight what we can expect to learn this year. Sony is apparently working on a 65 nm to 45 nm migration of its Cell Broadband Engine. Sony claims that the chip area size will be reduced by 34% and the 45 nm Cell will consume 40% less power than the 65 nm generation. The company also works on improving the design for manufacturability (DFM) for Cell to simplify the CPU production process.
Click to expand...
http://www.tomshardware.co.uk/45nm-Cell-BE,news-27328.html

The reace to 45NM! Looks like SONY is poised to win it.
 
Eat Crow old GAF posters!!!

My predictions in 2006 were right on the money. PS3 Slim now at 299 with WiFi, 120GB and a Bluray player, while the 360 is is at 60GB with no wifi nor HD playback at the same price point. I think its safe to say they are pretty close in manufacturing cost at the moment.

this is not even a thread about my console is better than yours and yet the fans will surely come out with their one liners "idiot" "wtf"... etc
 
And watch MS still maintain marketshare.

Not that I care. I buy all of them regardless. But let's face it...the damage is done from a consumer perception standpoint.
 
DaCocoBrova said:
And watch MS still maintain marketshare.

Not that I care. I buy all of them regardless. But let's face it...the damage is done from a consumer perception standpoint.
Click to expand...
that could be the case but that is not the point of the thread :)
 
PistolGrip said:
Eat Crow old GAF posters!!!

My predictions in 2007 were right on the money. PS3 Slim now at 299 with WiFi, 120GB and a Bluray player, while the 360 is is at 60GB with no wifi nor HD playback at the same price point. I think its safe to say they are pretty close in manufacturing cost at the moment.

4pv20bc.gif
Click to expand...

Uh, how can you tell? They're the same price but I think it's a safe guess that the 360's margins are likely higher.
 
PistolGrip said:
Eat Crow old GAF posters!!!

My predictions in 2007 were right on the money. PS3 Slim now at 299 with WiFi, 120GB and a Bluray player, while the 360 is is at 60GB with no wifi nor HD playback at the same price point. I think its safe to say they are pretty close in manufacturing cost at the moment.

4pv20bc.gif
Click to expand...

Actually by the time the PS3 price cut happens, the 360 will be at 120 GB at the same price point - and that's assuming Microsoft doesn't do a further cut.
 
PistolGrip said:
Eat Crow old GAF posters!!!

My predictions in 2007 were right on the money. PS3 Slim now at 299 with WiFi, 120GB and a Bluray player, while the 360 is is at 60GB with no wifi nor HD playback at the same price point. I think its safe to say they are pretty close in manufacturing cost at the moment.

4pv20bc.gif
Click to expand...

I guess it is pretty close to the Wii cost too? I think it is safe to say the 360 is making far more profit at $299 than the PS3.
 
Karma said:
I think it is safe to say the 360 is making far more profit at $299 than the PS3.
Click to expand...

My guess is that the profit margin on the pro/elite at 299 is good whereas the 199 arcade model is cutting it close.
 
what a shit bump.

I start reading the OP only to realise it's from 2006. So I skipped to the last page and it was bumped so you could gloat about a prediction ANYONE could've made. BIG FUCKING DEAL.
 
Karma said:
I guess it is pretty close to the Wii cost too? I think it is safe to say the 360 is making far more profit at $299 than the PS3.
Click to expand...
Nintendo is said to be making money on the Wii since launch. So no...

360 and PS3 are very similar. However the PS3 has seen substantial manufacturing cost reductions due to bluray and cell prices. Which is what I predicted at the start.

If you look at the Slim you may notice the material is cheaper, the buttons are cheaper, the may have merge the CPU and Graphics chip into one. All signs point to a similar manufacturing cost. Again I am not saying they are equal but I bet they are getting pretty close which is what I said in 2006 would only be a matter of time. At that time it was twice the price.

D4Danger said:
what a shit bump.

I start reading the OP only to realise it's from 2006. So I skipped to the last page and it was bump so you could gloat about a prediction ANYONE could've made. BIG FUCKING DEAL.
Click to expand...
Why so angry. I bump this one a year just to keep you whiners up to date relax.
 
Odysseus said:
Let me get out the slide rule and the abacus... carry the one...

August 2009.
Click to expand...


HOLY CRAP ODYSSEUS WINS THE THREAD TWO YEARS LATER AND WHILST BANNED!!

Seriously, pistolgrip, you CANNOT brag when Odysseus nailed the MONTH when the two would be at equal pricing (if not manufacturing costs).
 
This was a pretty sorry excuse for a bump, but this post from the first page is amusing:

Odysseus said:
Let me get out the slide rule and the abacus... carry the one...

August 2009.
Click to expand...

:lol

Edit: Beaten!
 
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