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How much blame does Islam as a whole deserve for Radical Islamic terrorism?

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This.


Also did we forget the overwhelming support for sharia law in sme middle eastern countries?

It works for them, doesn't it?

the only problem is that they want to grow into neighboring cultures that resend it's tenets, and although their birthrates outstrip that of the west by a large margin, it's a slow process.
If they want to realise their ideal of a global ummah within a century they have to convert and cause attrition among the resident populace. To do so they'll have to use increasingly more drastic measures.

I don't blame them for it, Stagnation is death.
 
It works for them, doesn't it?

the only problem is that they want to grow into neighboring cultures that resend it's tenets, and although their birthrates outstrip that of the west by a large margin, it's a slow process.
If they want to realise their ideal of a global ummah within a single generation they have to convert and cause attrition among the resident populace. To do so they'll have to use increasingly more drastic measures.

I don't blame them for it, Stagnation is death.

Does it work though? I mean anything can work but its not way to live


Sorry I meant support for it
 
Quran (4:89) - "They wish that you should reject faith as they reject faith, and then you would be equal; therefore take not to yourselves friends of them, until they emigrate in the way of God; then, if they turn their backs, take them, and slay them wherever you find them; take not to yourselves any one of them as friend or helper."

The Quran itself preaches death for apostasy, as do the hadiths.

The Quran also preaches violence against unbelievers.

Quran (9:123) - "O you who believe! fight those of the unbelievers who are near to you and let them find in you hardness."

Now, you can translate these phrases in ways that lessen their blow, or argue about history or context, but it is very easy to see how someone who reads this text, pretty much as it is written, can easily find justification for violence. Since there is no objective authority in religion, you cannot claim their interpretation is less valid than yours.

Former Muslim here, btw. Phrases like this are what Kadence me leave the religion, and I don't talk about it publicly in my home country in some places because I fear violence.

I applaud you for having the mental strength to see beyond and free your mind from the shackles of religion. Unfortunately most people don't.
 
Yes, religion causes problems and the world could be better place without them, but that isn't something you build policies around. People arguing this line are unproductive and won't lead to less terrorism. It distracts from building diplomatic pressure against Saudi Arabia and gulf states for funding terrorism and extremist Islamic ideology worldwide.
 
The religion wasn't called out like Islam was, no one called them "Radical Christian Terrorists"

Christian terrorist organization isn't much different? Am I missing something, or does that specific word need to be used for me to be correct?
 
Wahhabism and its spread even further with money and power by Saudi Arabia, mostly, is a huge issue inside Islam. An issue the more moderate muslims/muslim nations should rise to oppose vehemently.
 
The religion wasn't called out like Islam was, no one called them "Radical Christian Terrorists"

They should be because they are. The US is full of borderline christian terrorists. Remove the layer of material comfort they have right now, and I'd guarentee you'd see a lot of violence in the white nationalist evangelical subpopulation.
 
What benefits has Islamic religion brought to the world?


LOL

How about... Algebra, Geometry, Trigonometry, Calculus, Writing on paper, Astronomy, Physics, Chemistry, Biology...

---for starters?

Christians were the ones holding all that back because of "God". Hell, they executed "heretics" for suggesting the Earth was round and that it revolved around the Sun.

RIP Galileo.
 
Blaming an entire religion for the actions of few is as stupid as saying listening to rap music makes you a materialistic criminal. It's downright stupid. Humanity will always find reasons to unleash an evil side, religion or not.

This is a topic that shouldn't even be touched imo. Seeing the parallels between Nazi Germany and the tone in the recent American election scares the shit out of me. We are on a slippery slope. I think it's a good thing to separate extremists from the whole.
 
Martyrdom is often stated to transcend any doctrine warnings about suicide. I spent a bit of time trying to articulate my thoughts in the main topic. Anyone is free to trawl my post history. Bit tired to go through it all again in this topic.

A lot of my focus was on males, specifically single males and how they chase the concept of martyrdom as a means to become a warrior/hero and get rewards from God/in the afterlife. Incredibly complex discussion. For all the round about arguments that will go on in here, mainly people attacking and defending Islam, key focus is best spent on why its 99.9% males committing these atrocities. Often young, sometimes single and sometimes with little to no prospects in life. Even those that do have jobs or careers like the London bombers, that concept of being a hero and martyr can sway even those with a future.

Often the terrorists are affluent, so poverty is not the argument, though i get what you're driving at, it's kind of like the protagonist of Fight Club, people who, although comfortable, feel completely adrift in modern society and so find something extreme and violent to cling to.

It's definitely a mental problem (though not a mental illness), something that a bit of therapy could help them work through to figure out how they belong in the world without having to blow up a concert full of children. You'll notice many of the main terrorist actors in Western countries are native-born, and converted to Islam. They had a desire to find something extreme and came to Islam, and the Wahabbi strain cultivated their extremism, but Islam in general does not inculcate those attitudes in those who are raised in the faith.

Others are just hateful sociopaths at heart, and a problem that society has grappled with from the beginning of time.
 
Let me ask a hypothetical question. If you had a choice of two ideologies being emphasized in a country's school system--let's say Republicanism or environmentalism--which one would you pick? Or do you believe neither would have any substantial impact, and that everything would come down to certain individuals being manipulative or weak-willed?

If, in practice, the Republican ideology led to certain negative outcomes more than the environmentalist ideology, don't you think the former would deserve some blame?

If I am forced to choose an ideology in this hypothetical I choose that which isn't being promoted by men looking to exploit the hatred or dissatisfaction in the lives of some to harm other people. Like I said, I blame those using control over people to harm others, as well as those who allow themselves to hurt others.
 
Quran (4:89) - "They wish that you should reject faith as they reject faith, and then you would be equal; therefore take not to yourselves friends of them, until they emigrate in the way of God; then, if they turn their backs, take them, and slay them wherever you find them; take not to yourselves any one of them as friend or helper."

The Quran itself preaches death for apostasy, as do the hadiths.

The Quran also preaches violence against unbelievers.

Quran (9:123) - "O you who believe! fight those of the unbelievers who are near to you and let them find in you hardness."

Now, you can translate these phrases in ways that lessen their blow, or argue about history or context, but it is very easy to see how someone who reads this text, pretty much as it is written, can easily find justification for violence. Since there is no objective authority in religion, you cannot claim their interpretation is less valid than yours.

Former Muslim here, btw. Phrases like this are what Kadence me leave the religion, and I don't talk about it publicly in my home country in some places because I fear violence.

My faith is a massive question mark, I just really don't like people coming at any religion without some knowledge to back up the anecdotal stuff the put out, or the context-lacking links, really.

The issue with 4:89 is that it's read differently if you take the ayats before and after it, as well, btw. It's a common deal. Have a look at 4:88-4:91, it's not so much preaching violence. That one's common, so I know it off head.

I'm not as familiar with the second, so I'd have to research if there's more to it in terms of its surrounding and further ayats. Context wise, though, it was revealed in a time of war.

Still, you're right in that it can be interpreted that way. Any verse can be when taken as a one off, in any religion. That's just how it goes with everything. That's why we have scholars, though, and I'm more inclined to read them from the school of thought my family follows, naturally. I'm not gonna reject the possibility of their being interpreted wrongly. I think history is important, though, in reading these, else people just assume the worst of it. Who's at fault in those cases, though, that historical context is being ignored?


E: That being said, I'm just gonna tap out of this thread. It's not really going anywhere, they hardly ever do.
 
Blaming an entire religion for the actions of few is as stupid as saying listening to rap music makes you a materialistic criminal. It's downright stupid. Humanity will always find reasons to unleash an evil side, religion or not.

This is a topic that shouldn't even be touched imo. Seeing the parallels between Nazi Germany and the tone in the recent American election scares the shit out of me. We are on a slippery slope.
How about reading the posts in the thread.
 
LOL

How about... Algebra, Geometry, Trigonometry, Calculus, Writing on paper, Astronomy, Physics, Chemistry, Biology...

---for starters?

Christians were the ones holding all that back because of "God". Hell, they executed "heretics" for suggesting the Earth was round and that it revolved around the Sun.


Islam didn't invent those things...though they were a big part of the islamic golden age.
 
Blaming an entire religion for the actions of few is as stupid as saying listening to rap music makes you a materialistic criminal. It's downright stupid. Humanity will always find reasons to unleash an evil side, religion or not.

This is a topic that shouldn't even be touched imo. Seeing the parallels between Nazi Germany and the tone in the recent American election scares the shit out of me. We are on a slippery slope. I think it's a good thing to separate extremists from the whole.

You realize that Nazi-like white nationalist sentiment predominantly resides with the white evanglical christian right, don't you?
 
Islam didn't invent those things...though they were a big part of the islamic golden age.

which would not have happened without Islam uniting (so to speak) Arabia and the middle east and Islamic rulers calling for books to be brought from all corners of the world and for knowledge to be cultivated.
 
Islam didn't invent those things...though they were a big part of the islamic golden age.

These things happened in spite of islam, not because of it. That'd be like attributing the immense scientific advancements of the last few centuries to christianity.
 
Blaming an entire religion for the actions of few is as stupid as saying listening to rap music makes you a materialistic criminal. It's downright stupid. Humanity will always find reasons to unleash an evil side, religion or not.

This is a topic that shouldn't even be touched imo. Seeing the parallels between Nazi Germany and the tone in the recent American election scares the shit out of me. We are on a slippery slope. I think it's a good thing to separate extremists from the whole.

The problem with arguments like this are all or nothing. I don't think many people who suggested Islam deserves some blame are blaming Muslims in general. I know I'm not.

What I'm blaming is that the scripture is easily perverted and a lot of the core beliefs that are used to develop Sharia law amongst other things, are also used to spread terrorism.
 
LOL

How about... Algebra, Geometry, Trigonometry, Calculus, Writing on paper, Astronomy, Physics, Chemistry, Biology...

---for starters?

Christians were the ones holding all that back because of "God". Hell, they executed "heretics" for suggesting the Earth was round and that it revolved around the Sun.

RIP Galileo.

As an example I am looking at the Wikipedia entry for Calculus and the islamic influence on the development of Calculus is minuscule.
 
Tough question to be honest. First of all I want to express that every rational human being is responsible for it's actions. I'm not religious, Im' not an Atheist or an Anti-Theist, but imo religion as a phenomenon has to completely be seperated from actual theology in a discussion like this.

For example: even an atheist has to admit that the Bible contains at least some valuable content in regards to morality. The holy church in fact was never a headquater of morality in Christian history. I'm not trying to go that route of "the church did so much wrong", no, but it wasn't able to stop the madness either. Make out of it what you want.

Now, Islam doesn't even have a HQ. They are fighting each other over Mohammed's legacy aka the true heir till this very day. So to address OP: No, Islam as a whole is not responsible, because their is no Islam "as a whole". It's basically an Aresenal and Chelsea fans situation - they hate each other to the bone, but when England plays Germany they become best friends for that match.

The problem religions create don't come from the theology/ the content, it's the bad execution of socio-cultural education on a very personal level. People don't explore their religion on a spiritual/philosophical level, most of them just chew up what they've been told since childhood. We hardly see religion mixed with a healthy amount of intelligence -biiiig flaw.
 
You realize that Nazi-like white nationalist sentiment predominantly resides with the white evanglical christian right, don't you?

Yes, they are also extremists. My point is that we have to be careful about how me make this argument or criticism because the momentum makes it susceptible to being hijacked by more insane people on both sides. I get that pretty much all the people here have good intentions.
 
My faith is a massive question mark, I just really don't like people coming at any religion without some knowledge to back up the anecdotal stuff the put out, or the context-lacking links, really.

The issue with 4:89 is that it's read differently if you take the ayats before and after it, as well, btw. It's a common deal. Have a look at 4:88-4:91, it's not so much preaching violence. That one's common, so I know it off head.

I'm not as familiar with the second, so I'd have to research if there's more to it in terms of its surrounding and further ayats. Context wise, though, it was revealed in a time of war.

Still, you're right in that it can be interpreted that way. Any verse can be when taken as a one off, in any religion. That's just how it goes with everything. That's why we have scholars, though, and I'm more inclined to read them from the school of thought my family follows, naturally. I'm not gonna reject the possibility of their being interpreted wrongly. I think history is important, though, in reading these, else people just assume the worst of it. Who's at fault in those cases, though, that historical context is being ignored?

Well the problem is you can't expect every person to have access to a scholar, let alone a benign scholar who does not preach hatred. Similarly with historical context. If a person is hateful, or if someone wants to teach them to be hateful, it is very easy to find the justification for this in the text. Any sort of positive reading requires extra effort on partner of the reader. That's a problem.
 
The two are entwined and cannot be easily separated.
Take for example Atyeh, Indonesia, they flogged homosexuals and adulterers for the first time since democratically accepting Sharia today, a spectacle that attracted somewhere between 500 or 1000 onlookers who cheered and filmed the event, maybe it's an anomaly that will rectify itself automatically, maybe it's the beginning of a new revolution of cultural progress for the other islands, only time will tell. But it's clear that it's a sliding slope and fundamentalist islam is invariably the final result of the equation.

It's a tricky question, considering most of the peoples there voted for it and are genuinely glad with the corporal punishments and executions, by what right should we tell them otherwise. The idea of a perfect society is relative and as long as they respect those of the west then the two could coexist.

I think you should have shown the image, too.
dafd_cguiaa7bu37rkxc.jpg

"This woman got 28 lashes for physical affection outside marriage in Aceh"

May 23, 2017. Planet earth.
 
I think you should have shown the image, too.
dafd_cguiaa7bu37rkxc.jpg

"This woman got 28 lashes for physical affection outside marriage in Aceh"

May 23, 2017. Planet earth.

Sharia law calls for this. It calls for lashes for drinking alcohol, it calls for death for blasphemy and apostasy. It calls for amputations, lynchings, beatings, etc.

This was all born from Islam.
 
Fuck religion. People should evolve past this bullshit.

The regimes that slaughtered millions upon millions of people are atheist, evolved beyond bullshit religion as you say.
Look at Soviet Union, look at Mao's China, look at Pol Pot Cambodia,look at french revolution.
The belief in God is always changed for another one, but the people that doesn't accept the new gospel have to be erased.

Educate yuorself before spouting idiocy on the net.
 
No, but they embraced them and advanced civilization while Christians thought they were tools of the devil.

I agree, which is why I said several pages ago that it's probably the most important contribution made by Islam. However they didn't invent those things, they preserved them. You could give the Byzantines the same credit.
 
Well the problem is you can't expect every person to have access to a scholar, let alone a benign scholar who does not preach hatred. Similarly with historical context. If a person is hateful, or if someone wants to teach them to be hateful, it is very easy to find the justification for this in the text. Any sort of positive reading requires extra effort on partner of the reader. That's a problem.

But you yourself, as a believer, said that these verses are why you left. Surely when you were one, you had some resource that could help you understand? Unless you live in the middle of nowhere, I'm sure there's a local mosque or something that's willing to help. There are some that even have the option of emailing their imam/sheikh questions. There's no shortage of resources.

That's a problem in every religion, though, it's not only in Islam. The Old Testament suffers from the same. I can take a verse in that and skew it however I please, but people still follow that, no? You find what you're looking for in anything. The idea that the Qur'an is being given shit for it is what amazes me most. You can take a line out of an arbitrary novel and use that.
 
Idk, is there a link between their racism and those religious texts?
there's a group on Facebook called Acts 17 Apologetics which dedicate pretty much the whole group into disproving Islam while being devout Christians.

Whenever someone brings up the KKK, they laugh and say they weren't Christians but whenever someone brings up isis or another Islamic terrorist group, they say they are the devout Muslims, staying true to the Qur'an.
 
If I am forced to choose an ideology in this hypothetical I choose that which isn't being promoted by men looking to exploit the hatred or dissatisfaction in the lives of some to harm other people. Like I said, I blame those using control over people to harm others, as well as those who allow themselves to hurt others.
Let's say all ideologies will have opportunists looking to exploit them and use them for control (which is in fact the case).

Then which one would you pick? Would you say both environmentalism and Republicanism would be equally easy to exploit or control for nefarious purposes?
 
I think you should have shown the image, too.
dafd_cguiaa7bu37rkxc.jpg

"This woman got 28 lashes for physical affection outside marriage in Aceh"

May 23, 2017. Planet earth.

Imagine this was done by Christians. We would never heard the end of it. It would be front page news in every single Western newspaper and TV news show.

20 threads on GAF minimum. But the daily occurrences of life in islamic countries gets very little play because people just don't want to hear about it.
 
Calculus was developed mainly by Newton and Leibniz. Two Christians.

They were also people. Newton assumed a god in the details and that stymied some of his thinking on gravity. Even Darwin made some logical errors because he thought of evolution as a divine creation with a noble purpose.

Neither was helped at a scientific level by Christianity.

And they grew up in those environments and effectively had no choice or say in what religion they adhered to.
 
Calculus was developed mainly by Newton and Leibniz. Two Christians.

From wikipedia (on Newton):

Newton's conception of the physical world provided a stable model of the natural world that would reinforce stability and harmony in the civic world. Newton saw a monotheistic God as the masterful creator whose existence could not be denied in the face of the grandeur of all creation.[6][7] Although born into an Anglican family, by his thirties Newton held a Christian faith that, had it been made public, would not have been considered orthodox by mainstream Christianity;[8] in recent times he has been described as a heretic.[9]
 
Imagine this was done by Christians. We would never heard the end of it. It would be front page news in every single Western newspaper and TV news show.

20 threads on GAF minimum. But the daily occurrences of life in islamic countries gets very little play because people just don't want to hear about it.
Is that because Islam gets a free pass or because western media cares less about brown people ��
 
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