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How Osama Bin Laden won the war on terror

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tokkun said:
Indeed. And many of the consequences of the US response - the overthrow of a Sharia-based government, increased US military presence in the middle-East, and sharp rise in anti-Islamic sentiment in the West - are contrary to what we understand as bin Laden's long-term goals.
Depends on what happens in the end. Iraq with us out of the way could fall into total anarchy again with Irans help and be worse off than they were with Saddam.

Anti-Islamic Sentiment was on the rise in Europe without all the Post 9/11 stuff since Europe is dealing first hand with massive immigration of Radicals into their borders and Europe already has a history with Islamic aggression and conflict.

Holy War is what Osama and people like him want and what better way then to stoke the flames of anti-islamic sentiment to get both sides at odds with each other.

Fact is Osama has won in the long term. People are willing to give up their freedoms all in the name of safety from a threat that may never surface again and as Franklin said "He who sacrifices freedom for security deserves neither"
 
Chichikov said:
Don't laugh, remember in first gulf war when he attacked Israel with ballistic missiles, burning the country to the ground, making it uninhabitable?
You don't take chances with such risks.

The only difference is that there was no credible intel that he was going to do that. Just one of the many follies from the Bush Admin. on Iraq and the reasons for invading.
 
tokkun said:
Indeed. And many of the consequences of the US response - the overthrow of a Sharia-based government, increased US military presence in the middle-East, and sharp rise in anti-Islamic sentiment in the West - are contrary to what we understand as bin Laden's long-term goals.

Unless he wants us to bleed money and resources untill we leave like Hezbollah tried to do with Israel.
 
goomba said:
The most amazing thing to me is that most Americans still done understand the motives behind the 9/11 attacks, even though Bin Laden has stated them over and over again.
Well, given that the US has more of a presence in the Middle East now than they ever did prior to 9/11, it's safe to say he hasn't won at all.
 
Branduil said:
Well, given that the US has more of a presence in the Middle East now than they ever did prior to 9/11, it's safe to say he hasn't won at all.


"We are continuing this policy in bleeding America to the point of bankruptcy," -Bin Laden 2004
 
goomba said:
"We are continuing this policy in bleeding America to the point of bankruptcy," -Bin Laden 2004
That's giving him too much credit. We would spend ourselves into bankruptcy with or without Bin Laden.
 
Jason's Ultimatum said:
The only difference is that there was no credible intel that he was going to do that. Just one of the many follies from the Bush Admin. on Iraq and the reasons for invading.
No, the only difference is that what I described didn't happen (I was being sarcastic).
If your memory need some jogging, Iraq threw everything it had on Israel for like 6 weeks.
Killing 2 people.
CLEAR AND PRESENT DANGER.
 
Article fails on it's premise. The goal of a terror attack is to alter the behavior of a vastly superior enemy. To fight them with fear when you can't fight them with an army. They're trying to goad us into leaving the middle east, not send more troops. The article's premise is laughable.
 
goomba said:
The most amazing thing to me is that most Americans still done understand the motives behind the 9/11 attacks, even though Bin Laden has stated them over and over again.

It was my understanding that his ambitions were a lot more...ambitious than that, that he wanted to bleed the U.S. dry economically by chasing his sorry ass around (great job so far). Then he wanted to establish a new caliphate.
 
I wouldn't say won the War on Terror, but US has definitely squandered away everything.

They had the world's backing, even the Muslim world and they went into Iraq and squandered it all away.
 
GaimeGuy said:
Saddam has attacked us in the past and was planning to attack us in the future?

Uh...were you born on September 12, 2001 or something?
 
Lich_King said:
When my great great grandfather was labeled a "terrorist", they used to think that the goal of any organized terrorist attack is to overthrow government and establish new order, so he and his comrades successfully expelled elected Russian government, killed the czar, formed Soviet Union and thought that they won.

So I guess they were wrong all along and needed only to "goad a vastly more powerful enemy into an excessive response" according to the article.

oh wait

It's interesting that you would say this when the terrorist attacks committed by the Narodnaya Volia in the nineteenth century were considered failures. However, it could be argued that the disruption (including overreaction from the government) caused by those attacks helped to create the climate that lead to the Russian Revolution.
 
I think Bin Laden and his allies in their network "won" in that one goal was to make the west fear the abilities of their network to disrupt the west, and make the west paranoid that it was in a war it couldn't win.

However, as has happened before in history, antagonists from other cultures failed to understand the full dangers in attacking a powerful western nation. I would suspect that Bin Laden would not ultimately have wanted the increased US presence in the middle east even if such presence ended up causing more spite directed at the US. Bin Laden and his allies, with the stereotypical images they have of western and specifically American mindsets and behavioral parameters, would have trouble understanding that Americans would simultaneously lose their minds with fear and paranoia, yet enthusiastically sanction sending thousands more of their own citizens into harm's way. Westerners are characterized as weak, fat, arrogant, and fallen from righteousness with their foreign religions and sinful beliefs.

Of course, one thing I would think (pardon my ignorance if so) is that men from Bin Laden's culture would have trouble understanding as well the space between the average American citizen and its military. Yes, the US is very proud of its military and their image as the heroes of the world, but the vast majority of US citizens have never been in a service nor have any family members in a service, nor do they have any real experience with an unstable society or war being up close - until 9/11. A certain segment of Americans are quick to say "sic our troops on 'em and bomb up to hell, those godless heathens"; most of them have nothing personal to lose from the fighting. A person from a more troubled region of the world might naturally assume you'd dread having to send your citizens into a meat grinder where the long-term enemy has the advantage and can wage a bloody war of attrition and terror. Dread enough that you would not do it, especially if you'd just had your nose bloodied and told that "they" can get you any time they like, if you come where you're not wanted.

But, in simpler terms, Bin Laden and co. simply couldn't have understood the ignorance of some parts of America and how its media would just aid that ignorance and misunderstanding the goals of the attackers, too. From almost day one, the crazies have helped the ignorant see this as a stand-up war of justice that we gotta sally forth and win just like World War II. (Aka, the war America wants every war to be.)
 
Oblivion said:
Uh...were you born on September 12, 2001 or something?
..the fuck you talkin about? He was in war with Iran and invaded Kuwait. Americans supported him against Iran but as soon as he was invading Kuwait the turned it into a fight because of the oil. And I'm not sure if I should tell you this secret, but... the weapons of mass destruction were made up - a hoax. But shhh....
 
StoOgE said:
The Bush admin was run by a lot of idiots.

We were going into Iraq 9/11 or not.

This.

Imaginary WMDs had nothing to do with it,
they needed some kind of response to 9/11 , and it gave them a good excuse to invade Iraq which is something they already wanted to do anyway.

And Bin Ladin didn't win, but America did do a lot of dumb shit in reponse.
 
I don't think you can "win" or "lose" these types of "wars" but I'll say this. September 11th did to the United States exactly what Osama bin Laden wanted it to. Not only did it involve the loss of life but it enflamed us in several conflicts overseas, which cost us more lives, and breeds more hate toward America, and it also costs money. Lots of money. So we're even more in debt. Our economy is struggling in part because of debt (Not all due to this mind you), and relationship between America and Muslims is more strained than ever.

I said something like this in one of my classes in college about a year ago and my Professor laughed at me. He said that Osama bin Laden's base of operations had been destroyed, and many of his followers killed that's hardly what bin Laden could have hoped for, but to the contrary. Extremists such as him and his followers die for the chance to kill an American, and believe that they go to heaven dying in battle with "infidels". They do indeed want Americans fighting in their back yard. So they have the chance to kill one, and give their life trying or doing so.
 
StoOgE said:
The Bush admin was run by a lot of idiots.

We were going into Iraq 9/11 or not.

I'm still a little...confused/shocked? by the decision to go to Iraq.

It was so sudden. Afghanistan...ok...the US wasn't getting along with the Taliban (whom they put into power if I'm not mistaken) because the Taliban was dragging its feet in handing over Bin Laden.

America Attacks!

Victoly?

FUCK YA...LET'S GET IRAQ NAO TOO?! WMDs...and other shit...oh umm...Saddam is bad!

I never considered they were planning on doing it before 9/11
 
The goal of any organized terrorist attack is to goad a vastly more powerful enemy into an excessive response.

Really, Ted Koppel? This is the goal of every organized terrorist attack in history? That was the goal of every IRA, LTTE, AL Qaeda, Hamas, MRTA, Shining Path, SLA, Weather Underground, etc. attack?

I actually can't think of a single terrorist attack where this was the goal, but then again I don't wear an idiotic hairpiece and get paid to read the news off a screen...
 
I think the point of the article is not to say that Bin Laden had planned any of this by any measure, but that our overreaction and continual 'worship' of 9/11 means that we continue to do far greater damage to ourselves than even he had anticipated.
 
Kuro Madoushi said:
I'm still a little...confused/shocked? by the decision to go to Iraq.

It was so sudden. Afghanistan...ok...the US wasn't getting along with the Taliban (whom they put into power if I'm not mistaken) because the Taliban was dragging its feet in handing over Bin Laden.

America Attacks!

Victoly?

FUCK YA...LET'S GET IRAQ NAO TOO?! WMDs...and other shit...oh umm...Saddam is bad!

I never considered they were planning on doing it before 9/11
Something something he tried to kill my dad something something.....
 
Kuro Madoushi said:
I'm still a little...confused/shocked? by the decision to go to Iraq.

It was so sudden. Afghanistan...ok...the US wasn't getting along with the Taliban (whom they put into power if I'm not mistaken) because the Taliban was dragging its feet in handing over Bin Laden.

America Attacks!

Victoly?

FUCK YA...LET'S GET IRAQ NAO TOO?! WMDs...and other shit...oh umm...Saddam is bad!

I never considered they were planning on doing it before 9/11
Oil.
 
The trouble is when people discussion terrorism and the impact of 9/11, they often just focus on the twin towers and the emotional impact it had on the American public. The dire situations outside the US in other parts of the world, consequences of the wars they advocate, are completely ignored. In their mind, the greatest victims of terror are the people in those towers and so in every election they evoke the memory of this day to win both empathy and incite passion.
 
kame-sennin said:
It's interesting that you would say this when the terrorist attacks committed by the Narodnaya Volia in the nineteenth century were considered failures. However, it could be argued that the disruption (including overreaction from the government) caused by those attacks helped to create the climate that lead to the Russian Revolution.

Narodnaya Volya was indeed a failure, Bolsheviks - not so much.
The whole process - invasion by foreign army, collapse of strong government, shaky democratic process - is pretty much the same in Iraq right now. Germans were forced to sign a treaty since they were being destroyed by Antanta and withdrew, allowing Bolsheviks to take the country by force, and as I see the situation developing, USA is being destroyed in economic war with China and is forced to withdraw from Iraq. Soon after that democratic government will be overthrown and Bin Laden can start building his caliphate (If he's alive, that is; also Iran might be first to use the situation).

Though if we are to believe article's premise, Reichstag fire was a total success of international communist movement to provoke Nazi Germany into excessive use of force and consequential defeat, and Stalin was also sitting there laughing at how civil liberties are crashed in Germany, since that's exactly what he wanted.
 
Isn't this post hoc? US was bound to attack Iraq regardless of 9/11. Bin Laden didn't really win anything, his support in the Sunni world is greatly reduced, his organization greatly weakened and Iraq is now led by a Shia government whom Osama despises and considers them as bad as bad as the Jews.
 
ArjanN said:
This.

Imaginary WMDs had nothing to do with it,
they needed some kind of response to 9/11 , and it gave them a good excuse to invade Iraq which is something they already wanted to do anyway.

And Bin Ladin didn't win, but America did do a lot of dumb shit in reponse.

The idea that the Bush Administration wanted to enter Iraq pre 9/11 or even directly after 9/11 has never been substantiated. What we do know is that at some point after 9/11 Wolfowitz, Cheney and others became convinced that Iraq was a key battlefield for fighting terrorism.

trinest said:

The vast majority of Oil contracts coming out of Iraq did not not to American nationals, so if it was for Oil it was a gigantic failure on that level. This idea is little more than a conspiracy theory anyway.
 
Draft said:
Dan Carlin had a very similar assessment, and I think it's 100% spot on. The 9/11 attacks were successful beyond any terrorist's wildest dreams. They caused a fundamental negative shift in the American way of life.

I'm not living in America so I don't know what is the American way of life exactly but he succeeded in making America spend too much on military (and that's just added to its huge debt) and implement very drastic security measures to the prejudice of private life. Also USA's international image is pretty much destroyed beyond full repair but it's not Osama's fault, it's was the Administration riding the wave. If Bush's IQ was higher he wouldn't be as much puppet as he was. So I say it's not only Osama who succeeded but also some americans that were able to push their agenda finally.
 
goomba said:
The most amazing thing to me is that most Americans still done understand the motives behind the 9/11 attacks, even though Bin Laden has stated them over and over again.
Also, Jews.

The enmity between us and the Jews goes far back in time and is deep rooted. There is no question that war between the two of us is inevitable. For this reason it is not in the interest of Western governments to expose the interests of their people to all kinds of retaliation for almost nothing. It is hoped that people of those countries will initiate a positive move and force their governments not to act on behalf of other states and other sects. This is what we have to say and we pray to Allah to preserve the nation of Islam and to help them drive their enemies out of their land.

Our primary mission is nothing but the furthering of this religion. ... Let not the West be taken in by those who say that Muslims choose nothing but slaughtering. Their brothers in East Europe, in Turkey and in Albania have been guided by Allah to submit to Islam and to experience the bliss of Islam. Unlike those, the European and the American people and some of the Arabs are under the influence of Jewish media. ...

... Tell the Muslims everywhere that the vanguards of the warriors who are fighting the enemies of Islam belong to them and the young fighters are their sons. Tell them that the nation is bent on fighting the enemies of Islam. Once again, I have to stress the necessity of focusing on the Americans and the Jews for they represent the spearhead with which the members of our religion have been slaughtered. Any effort directed against America and the Jews yields positive and direct results - Allah willing. It is far better for anyone to kill a single American soldier than to squander his efforts on other activities. ...
 
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