Support NeoGAF

[Psajdak]

Not trying to make some "Bring Suikoden back!" thread of this, since we'll never get to see new entry, anyway.

What confuses me, though, is simpy how did all this happened?
Every title in series was fairly good, and even black sheep Suikoden IV was actually decent game, better than what some people said about it.

As an RPG, you had a constant feel of progress, what with your base becoming bigger, and rich looking as you brought new, interesting folks, runes were cool both as a gaming mechanic, as well as a part of story...
And overarching story of series wasn't even finished yet; I bet a lot of people wished to finally learn secrets of Sindar, Hikusaak, and Harmonia, as well, as what't the deal with characters like Viki, and Jeane.

Suikoden games were made in such a way that it was just great finding out more about its characters, and their relationships, as well as the world around them.

I kind of thought that this series was popular enough to last for much longer than it did.

Such a shame.

 

[Ivellios]

It is one of my favorite jRPG series, it is such a shame that Konami gave up on it completely...

 

[Mr Hyde]

It´s the new and improved Konami code. Fuck up every good IP in their portfolio and let the middle finger linger to all of the fans that hope for a return to former glory.

 

[FF:Enhanced_Reality]

Well they also killed Silent Hill.

Aaaaaand Metal Gear.

Aaaaaand Castlevania.

And a lot of stuff. They self destructed. I believe Sony should acquire their gaming studio and IP but you never know. They might screw their head on at some point and think fuck it, let's give it another go.

 

[Red Crayon Aristocrat]

How the hell do you have series like Silent Hill, Metal Gear and Castlevania and also murder those?

 

[Deleted member 738976]

How the hell do you have series like Silent Hill, Metal Gear and Castlevania and also murder those?

By outsourcing them to other studios or not finishing the game.

 

[Dthomp]

You could almost replace Suikoden with any RPG/JRPG from the PS1 era. The minds behind many of these great stories and games have likely moved on from gaming. Everything really quickly evolved into more action based focus and less on the world and how you interact with it and add to it. I was really introduced to RPGs in the PS1 era which I know makes me biased towards them, but I don't think any era after that has really approached RPGS with the same care that they had in that era and the SNES one.

 

[UltimaKilo]

For me the human cats and ducks really made the series hard to get into.

However, there has been a slight revival of the JRPGs recently with Radiant Historia, DQ, Xenoblade, Octopath Traveler and more that have sold well enough to justify another Suikoden game.

Then again, they have butchered all their modern games. I really wanted a new Zone of the Enders until I realized they would probably mess that up so bad it would make me cry.

 

[Northeastmonk]

Honestly, could they make something better?

You could almost replace Suikoden with any RPG/JRPG from the PS1 era. The minds behind many of these great stories and games have likely moved on from gaming. Everything really quickly evolved into more action based focus and less on the world and how you interact with it and add to it. I was really introduced to RPGs in the PS1 era which I know makes me biased towards them, but I don't think any era after that has really approached RPGS with the same care that they had in that era and the SNES one.

This is spot on. In many ways the PS1/SNES era of RPGs defined the genre. I also wonder about the many different teams that created Xenogears, Chrono Trigger, Secret of Mana, and Suikoden. In the manual for Far East of Eden Apocolypse IV there is a layout of people who helped make the game or they provided their talents to make the game.

I see stuff like the Tokyo RPG Factory and it just doesn't fill the same satisfaction. I played through Suikoden II and it's hard to find a modern day RPG that does it so well.

What probably hinders creativity is money and being stubborn. It's like game designers don't want to be this so called "retro" style unless their fans won't buy anything, but retro games. Indie games can do a good job (Pier Solar and the Great Architects for example), but I always bring out and play my PS1 or SNES library when I need a pallet cleanser.

I have that book "The Untold History of Japanese Game Development" and it's super interesting. Who knows what a lot of the talent back then is working on today.

It's probably easier to create games now a days, but that's a blessing and a curse. You can make a game with sprites and have the fighting engine from Suikoden/Final Fantasy, but that doesn't mean it will interest those who are fans of those games.

I honestly don't think Konami is capable of it. Lots of RPG's want to be cute with fun gameplay. I think there's some sorta writer's block with the way games are made. Action games are doing great. But even Igarashi said publishers thought his style wouldn't work anymore. He had to start his own Kickstarter. Same with Yu Suzuki. The industry feels like it has an identity crisis.

What does Victor Ireland give us after so many years? The Summon Nights 5/6 on PSP. The game isn't terrible, but it's not on the same scale as Lunar was or if they actually brought over Far East of Eden to the west.

 

[CatCouch]

I'm cautiously optimistic JRPG's are making a comeback. I want to see more fantasy since the last decade has been all human characters and more action focused. I want weird monster and animal party members! I miss games having romance sub-plots, too.

I guess that games like Suikoden are too ambitious for big, modern games. So many characters!

All the re-releases of Final Fantasy games have rekindled my love of PS1-2 JRPG's. There's so much room for AA games in those styles to grow now, not everything needs to be FFXV with large open world stuff.

The passion to make creative games seems to be at an all time low. The industry as a whole feels like it's trend chasing while viewing games as just numbers and it shows. A few great AAA games and some creative indies are all that keep me going now. Give us more Octopaths!

On a side note, the amount of damage Konami have done to their name in recent years is crazy. While Capcom has been making great strides I don't see any indication Konami cares about their properties at all. They murdered all their franchises. WTH?

 

[Osukaa]

I'm still here begging for ports of all the games to ps4/switch etc... I've given up on a proper new entry ever being made and it sucks!

 

[Hudo]

Can someone redpill me on Suikoden, especially Suikoden II? I have seen it being mentioned together with "Best (J)RPG of all time!". And I am always like "Well, that's not how you write Final Fantasy VI, but I am interested!". I only know that fans seem to hate Suikoden IV.

 

[Pallas]

Can someone redpill me on Suikoden, especially Suikoden II? I have seen it being mentioned together with "Best (J)RPG of all time!". And I am always like "Well, that's not how you write Final Fantasy VI, but I am interested!". I only know that fans seem to hate Suikoden IV.

Well Suikoden is an interesting series because of the base building(you usually get a HQ that develops as you recruit more characters)and collecting the 108 Stars of Destiny(characters, some not playable) that aids the hero in their quest of toppling oppressive regimes, who always seem to have sinister, often hidden agendas. The five mainline games all take place in the same world, on various continents and countries during different times.

The primal aspect of the world is governed by runes, which your spell casters can imbued their bodies with to give them magical prowess. Not all runes are magical though and there are 27 true runes that are reference as Gods. Imbueing one of these often gives the users incredible power but sometimes it comes with consequences too. In each of the games the main hero is given a true rune or part of one(SV is slightly different)

Of course the enemies may have them as well and it’s often reference in the game that a powerful nation was attempting to collect all of them. Which was Harmonia, which I imagine would of taken place there if the series ever had a true ending.

Now about Suikoden 2 and 4 ...

Suikoden 2 is consider the high point because of the story line and development that characters were given. The art was also very good for a PS1 game and the music was some of the best. I’m probably not alone when I say that it also has the best set of antagonists as well.

Suikoden 4 was graphically superior than its predecessors but the story was weak and often a tad confusing if you didn’t also play Suikoden Tactics(btw it’s pretty good game, as far as tactical RPG’s are concerned)side story that was made to compliment the game. The characters were weak as well, with only the main characters having any worthwhile development. Oh and it has voice acting, it was pretty terrible!

There are 3 other games that compliment the 5 numerical titles games.

Two of those are visual novels never released outside of Japan for the PS1, that added story and information to Suikoden 2 and 3, they were known as the suikogaidens.

The other game mentioned previously was Suikoden Tactics that helped shed light on the confusing story of Suikoden 4, it took place before Suikoden 4 and after it.

Sorry about the long post ... it was difficult to try and keep it as short as possible which I failed at. There’s a lot more to Suikoden then what I mention so if you’re seriously curious and interested, there are several sites dedicated to the series with a wealth of knowledge and information.

 

[Hudo]

Well Suikoden is an interesting series because of the base building(you usually get a HQ that develops as you recruit more characters)and collecting the 108 Stars of Destiny(characters, some not playable) that aids the hero in their quest of toppling oppressive regimes, who always seem to have sinister, often hidden agendas. The five mainline games all take place in the same world, on various continents and countries during different times.

The primal aspect of the world is governed by runes, which your spell casters can imbued their bodies with to give them magical prowess. Not all runes are magical though and there are 27 true runes that are reference as Gods. Imbueing one of these often gives the users incredible power but sometimes it comes with consequences too. In each of the games the main hero is given a true rune or part of one(SV is slightly different)

Of course the enemies may have them as well and it’s often reference in the game that a powerful nation was attempting to collect all of them. Which was Harmonia, which I imagine would of taken place there if the series ever had a true ending.

Now about Suikoden 2 and 4 ...

Suikoden 2 is consider the high point because of the story line and development that characters were given. The art was also very good for a PS1 game and the music was some of the best. I’m probably not alone when I say that it also has the best set of antagonists as well.

Suikoden 4 was graphically superior than its predecessors but the story was weak and often a tad confusing if you didn’t also play Suikoden Tactics(btw it’s pretty good game, as far as tactical RPG’s are concerned)side story that was made to compliment the game. The characters were weak as well, with only the main characters having any worthwhile development. Oh and it has voice acting, it was pretty terrible!

There are 3 other games that compliment the 5 numerical titles games.

Two of those are visual novels never released outside of Japan for the PS1, that added story and information to Suikoden 2 and 3, they were known as the suikogaidens.

The other game mentioned previously was Suikoden Tactics that helped shed light on the confusing story of Suikoden 4, it took place before Suikoden 4 and after it.

Sorry about the long post ... it was difficult to try and keep it as short as possible which I failed at. There’s a lot more to Suikoden then what I mention so if you’re seriously curious and interested, there are several sites dedicated to the series with a wealth of knowledge and information.

Don't be sorry at all! I actually appreciate it very much. So, thank you! The base building/HQ stuff sounds really right up my alley. And recruiting your characters/party (108? Holy crap) is also something I am into. Man, it looks like I have really missed some gem. The whole premise of collecting these runes and Nations/Powers trying to collect them as a type of "superweapon" sounds like a cool premise.
I didn't even know that Suikoden Tactics was a thing (Googled it a bit after you mentioned it). And I say that as someone who also played Onimusha Tactics! So, I thought I knew my turn-based strategy games on Handhelds . Apparently, I don't.

One last question: Are all the Suikoden games direct sequels/prequels to each other? Or could I start with Suikoden II? I expect that the general cosmology and ontology of the setting might remain the same throughout the games, right?

Oh, I have recently come across this, btw:


So, the OST sounds really solid as well. I might be in the minority here but I am actually very sensitive about the audio portions of a game. A good soundtrack can actually mitigate some gameplay weaknesses, that a game might have, for me. (Or really good sound design. I remember that one aspect why Battlefield: Bad Company 2 felt so good to play was the incredible "soundscape of war" during battles.)

 

[KOMANI]

Don't be sorry at all! I actually appreciate it very much. So, thank you! The base building/HQ stuff sounds really right up my alley. And recruiting your characters/party (108? Holy crap) is also something I am into. Man, it looks like I have really missed some gem. The whole premise of collecting these runes and Nations/Powers trying to collect them as a type of "superweapon" sounds like a cool premise.
I didn't even know that Suikoden Tactics was a thing (Googled it a bit after you mentioned it). And I say that as someone who also played Onimusha Tactics! So, I thought I knew my turn-based strategy games on Handhelds . Apparently, I don't.

One last question: Are all the Suikoden games direct sequels/prequels to each other? Or could I start with Suikoden II? I expect that the general cosmology and ontology of the setting might remain the same throughout the games, right?

Oh, I have recently come across this, btw:


So, the OST sounds really solid as well. I might be in the minority here but I am actually very sensitive about the audio portions of a game. A good soundtrack can actually mitigate some gameplay weaknesses, that a game might have, for me. (Or really good sound design. I remember that one aspect why Battlefield: Bad Company 2 felt so good to play was the incredible "soundscape of war" during battles.)

I would start off with 1 then 2. The save data transfers over.

 

[Hudo]

I would start off with 1 then 2. The save data transfers over.

Ah OK, that's pretty cool. Then I will start with the first!

 

[ValiantTraveler]

Can someone redpill me on Suikoden, especially Suikoden II? I have seen it being mentioned together with "Best (J)RPG of all time!". And I am always like "Well, that's not how you write Final Fantasy VI, but I am interested!". I only know that fans seem to hate Suikoden IV.

As said above, building your HQ and recruiting lots of characters to populate it is a unique and compelling feature of this series. The two tracks that play in the HQ are wonderful by the way.

Also there are large-scale battles with armies duking it out in a simple SRPG-style battle system. Again the music used here is stellar.

But what really makes Suikoden II hailed as one of the best JRPGs is the dramatic highs the story reaches. You think you're playing a fun JRPG like others but then the plot hits you with some heavy moments that leave you like "OMG did this seriously happen?!! I was not ready for this!" in the same vein as FFVI does. It also helps that the emotional delivery is elevated by brilliant sprite work and, again, the music.

If you plan on playing this game, don't check it out on YouTube, suggestions and video titles are infested with spoilers.

 

[Hudo]

As said above, building your HQ and recruiting lots of characters to populate it is a unique and compelling feature of this series. The two tracks that play in the HQ are wonderful by the way.

Also there are large-scale battles with armies duking it out in a simple SRPG-style battle system. Again the music used here is stellar.

But what really makes Suikoden II hailed as one of the best JRPGs is the dramatic highs the story reaches. You think you're playing a fun JRPG like others but then the plot hits you with some heavy moments that leave you like "OMG did this seriously happen?!! I was not ready for this!" in the same vein as FFVI does. It also helps that the emotional delivery is elevated by brilliant sprite work and, again, the music.

If you plan on playing this game, don't check it out on YouTube, suggestions and video titles are infested with spoilers.

You have really hyped me up now, haha. Yeah, I had already an ending of a game spoiled due to careless Youtube-browsing...

 

[ookami]

I was thinking that I was starting the week quietly... After 2 minutes in this thread, I am already submerged by nostalgia then excitation. Now I just want to get back from work and play Suikoden 1 & 2.

 

[Maguro]

Because Konami. I mean what do you wanna hear more? In the ps3 era a lot of Japanese companies went totally wrong with their decisions... No idea why.. It just happened. To Konami, Capcom, Sega etc.. It's like they said fuck our fans and Ips. Some got their spin back like Sega and Capcom but Konami is freaking doomed. I doubt they will produce a good game, a true sequel of one of their old IPs ever.

Also the mindset that consoles are dead and mobile games are their future is not really helping. With people leading a company that way there is no hope

 

[JohannCK]

What confuses me, though, is simpy how did all this happened?

What exactly happened is unclear, but the known facts are that they pulled the series creator Murayama off Suikoden 3 halfway through the project and he left Konami immediately after.

I'd say that had a pretty big part in it.

 

[Enjay]

I think games like this just take too long and cost to much to make competently for today's technology and standards.

 

[ValiantTraveler]

I think games like this just take too long and cost to much to make competently for today's technology and standards.

This is part of the problem and one of the reasons other series like Wild Arms and Breath of Fire dropped dead after the PS2 era. The development cost goes up with no guarantee of selling well. That and teams disbanding.

If Konami cared, they could have greenlighted a new Suikoden for the 3DS during its life cycle, like Shin Megami Tensei IV.

Now that the Switch is the current handheld in the market, JRPGs with tame budgets (apart from a new Bravely or Octopath) are less likely to get made.

 

[Afro Republican]

Suikoden was never that good and buyers rejected it 5 times.

I don't know what else is there to say. Like Xenosaga it never got off the ground after multiple games.

 

[KOMANI]

What exactly happened is unclear, but the known facts are that they pulled the series creator Murayama off Suikoden 3 halfway through the project and he left Konami immediately after.

I'd say that had a pretty big part in it.

A third game in the series was developed, but a month before the release of Suikoden III in July 2002, which would become the best received and best selling installment in the series, Murayama left Konami. In compliance with Konami company policy, his name was taken out of the credits for the game. The reason for his sudden departure has been long theorized on by fans, many believing corporate meddling to be the reason, in part because of the omitted credit for Suikoden III. However, in an interview with Swedish gaming magazine LEVEL in August 2009, Murayama clarifies that this was only because it had been exactly ten years since he was first hired by Konami, and his personal goal had always been to stay no longer than ten years before turning freelance. He claims that after the success of Suikoden II, his superiors were very supportive and that he was allowed to decide freely how the next Suikoden would be made, and that he is still on good terms with the old team.

In a 2016 interview, he mentioned that over the years he had offers from Konami to return.

 

[ookami]

That and teams disbanding.

Having the three pillars of Suikoden 1 & 2 together (Yoshitaka Murayama, Junko Kawano, and Miki Higashino) is what made everything connect in the series. One left after Genso Suikogaiden and another one before the end of Suikoden 3 development. Junko Kawano is the one who stayed with Konami and, sadly, all further Suikoden games she worked on didn't have the same appeal for me.

As other people said, the transition from 2D to 3D might also have played a role in the departure of Yoshitaka Murayama from Konami. As he said in an interview in 2014 :

Games like Suikoden, where they've used 108 characters throughout the series, require a lot of material to create. So I believe making a game like that is quite difficult right now.

And in another interview in 2016 :

Q: When developing Suikoden 3, was there anything planned that couldn't fit into the budget or schedule in the end?
A: In Suikoden 3, the story after the three protagonists finally join up was shortened due to development time restraints.

Q: Given the opportunity, would you be willing to help make a new Suikoden game?
A: If the production environment allowed for it to be made right
Source

Edit: Quote on the second interview.

 

[Werewolf Jones]

Series killed itself when it went from sprites to 3D models. It looks like ass.

 

[Pallas]

What exactly happened is unclear, but the known facts are that they pulled the series creator Murayama off Suikoden 3 halfway through the project and he left Konami immediately after.

I'd say that had a pretty big part in it.

True, it did. The team was disbanded as well and they had two spin off games, when they had anew lead director, one on the DS called Tierkresis(spelling?) that got localized but it never had great success and failed to even capture the core audience that were captivated with Suikoden 1-5, since the game didn’t even take place in the same world and really didn’t have any association with the story of the main games. Same with the PSP Suikoden game that never got released outside of Japan.

Suikoden was never that good and buyers rejected it 5 times.

I don't know what else is there to say. Like Xenosaga it never got off the ground after multiple games.

I disagree about it not being good, the series was very niche and didn’t get advertise well outside of Japan. It’s honestly a hidden gem of a series and like any series, it has its high points(2,5) and low points(4)

 

[zeorhymer]

I'd love to have another 108 stars of destiny based game. I don't think anyone else has tried it besides Konami.

 

[MiyazakiHatesKojima]

You could almost replace Suikoden with any RPG/JRPG from the PS1 era. The minds behind many of these great stories and games have likely moved on from gaming. Everything really quickly evolved into more action based focus and less on the world and how you interact with it and add to it. I was really introduced to RPGs in the PS1 era which I know makes me biased towards them, but I don't think any era after that has really approached RPGS with the same care that they had in that era and the SNES one.

THIS.

 

[Ailike]

I would be happy if the creators just did a novelization or comic book or something.