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How to Improve Final Fantasy Summons

Summon will always be bad because physical is always better. No MP/SP cost, no long wait time, no animation BS.
The only good summon is Phoenix or buffs summon.
If they want summon to be good, make them into attachable equipment/slot with decent stats % for having it on, and give unique physical abilities as well.
At least that will forces the player to swap around and play with the summons.
 
FF15 summons seem like they're gonna be like mega elixers to me.

Some super important thing that I save for the one moment I need it and it never comes.
 
In theory, controllable summons should be incredibly fun, but I like the idea that they're actually something summoned, not player-controlled. I don't want to really "be" or "play as" the summon. I want them to feel more like a distant entity whose power the party is asking for. Makes it feel more otherworldly and mysterious.

So I guess I prefer the old methods of summoning as opposed to XII, XIII, and Type-0's.
 
I think that summons as "black magic plus" is kinda boring (which is why I'm worried about how they're handled in FFXV, no matter how spectacular they look).

FFX's summons were a really interesting stride forward, but they run into the issue of being wildly overpowered early in the game (to the point that many people beat the game just by spamming Aaron over drives) and wildly underpowered late in the postgame as your main party catches up to them in stats while having the additional advantage of equipment modifiers. For the most part (like during the story) they were just a little too good (but don't get me wrong, I mostly really love that implementation - I just wish the game were tougher).

FFXII's and FFXIII's, on the other hand, are waaaaay underpowered and from the very start are basically weaker than the two party members they replace.

However, I think in the long run, an approach similar to what we see in FFXII is the solution. The problem is dismissing two party members. If a summon were purely additive, even if the summon were weak it'd still be a boost in strength over what your party does on its own. This is how FFXI and FFXIV do it and I think it's the right move for the series in general.

Or, if summons don't act like party members, I'm down for them being 'passive' spells in the sense that your party keeps playing while they go off. Like, a huge animation goes on around your party members and enemies while you *keep fighting*. I'm just not down for them effectively pausing battle anymore. If FFVIIR has KOTR charge through the battlefield one by one while your party members keep battling as well, it'll be goddamn badass.
 
I enjoy FFX & FFXIII's the most, but later on the game I'm usually summoning them just to tank a hit/abuse invincibility and get free damage.

I think it'd be cool to have summons behave like a buff that grants a party member additional abilities. Maybe summoning Ramuh will let that character use Thundaja and give them lightning elemental attacks for X amount of turns/time.
 
Just don't turn them into scissoring lady motorcycle abominations that spend their time staring at Snow's butt or using their chests as airbags.

Kawapaper_Final_Fantasy_XIII_Snow.jpg

... FFXIII summons blow so hard.
 
I think Type-0 was a return to awe-inspiring for summons. I really don't want to spoil them, but for people who will never play it or already have, I'll link clips:

Again, don't watch these if you're still planning on playing Type-0.

Bahamut ZERO: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dsnlP8bY89s
Verboten Alexander: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=u88IhvosJ5E

edit: removed URL tag so the thumbnails wouldn't spoil on mobile.
 
The rest of their implementation aside, one thing I thought XIII did right with their summons was having them tied to a different resource meter, that filled more slowly, so that they couldn't be used too frequently.


That was fairly useful, but if I remember correctly, at certain levels, your party became so powerful that the summons weren't necessary.
 
FFXIII was beatable without ever using summons, probably because the devs couldn't assume you'd have enough TP for it at any point.
But the idea of controllable beasts was on point.

FFXV seems to be going back to the nuke spells approach and that's not very interesting after the first couple of times you do it.
 
Since when were summons weak?

In Final Fantasy III, there were two types of summoning magic: the magic used by the Conjurer class, and the magic used by the Summoner class. The magic used by the Conjurer class could be unreliable, since the summon would use one of two different abilities at random. However, some of those summons were still pretty useful. For example, Titan's two options were "powerful physical attack" and "another powerful physical attack". Ifrit's was "do good fire damage to all enemies" or "really strong heal on the the whole party". The Summoner class used the summoning attacks that are more familiar from the rest of the series: Diamond Dust, Judgement Bolt, etc. However, the sheer quantity of spell uses the Summoner gets for pretty solid attacks makes it a pretty good class.

Now, Rydia's summoning magic was also pretty good. If you compare Bahamut and Meteor, for example, Bahamut has 60% of the Mp cost and one third the cast time to get the same rough effect: do max damage to all enemies. It is a phenomenal spell in FFIV, and Summon magic as a whole is along the same lines.

Now, Final Fantasy V is where the Summoner really shines. Summoner is a wonderful class in FFV because of two things: the ability to trivialize every random battle in the game, and excellent defensive utility. The FFV Summoner gets Golem, a summon that negates all enemy physical attacks, which is just as good in practice as it sounds, and Carbuncle, which gives the whole party reflect. The FFV Summoner also has Phoenix, which is probably one of the best single spells in the game.

Summon magic in these first three games (as well as in most later FF games) has one very useful feature that differentiates it from Black Magic: Spell Attack power isn't cut in half when targeting more than one enemy. This makes Summon Magic for the most part strictly better than normal magic for fighting groups of enemies. And Summon Magic gets the job done. Between Ramuh, Titan, and Syldra, you can pretty much wipe out any non-boss enemy group in FFV with just one spell. That is the biggest selling point of Summon Magic.

Now, they significantly nerfed Summon magic in FFVI, thanks to the imposition of the "once per battle" limit. That doesn't stop summons from being enormously useful, thanks to added variety and support abilities.

To be honest, Summon magic began to go downhill in FFVII. While the summon spells themselves are just as great as always, the shift begins towards spectacle over substance. And that is the big curse that has been plaguing summon magic since: they make the spectacle bigger and bigger, but at the cost of making summon spells less and less purely functional abilities.

This hits its pinnacle in FF XII where summons are completely over the top in spectacle, thanks to music shifts, large size of the summoned monsters, and flashy attacks. The FFXII summons are way, way overcosted (your entire MP gauge and two party members) for something that doesn't actually do much. They are completely useless. In fact, they are actively detrimental to you. They are only useful for very limited and atypical situations. Summons in FFXIII continued that same trend: flashy, expensive, and mostly useless. I think I'll like the whole "summons fighting beside you" idea once they actually make it fun and well balanced.

Final Fantasy XIV's approach is somewhat underwhelming as it is, thanks to the weak focus of the class on its pet. From what I gather, FFXI was a lot better in this regard, though at the cost of not giving the player much to do. On the plus side, if you just want summons for spectacle, FFXIV has that in spades thanks to the Primal battles. Some of the new Primals and redesigns of classic summons are excellent too.
 
If you ask me how to improve FF summons, this is how I would do it

-Each summon has an elemental affinity (nothing new)
-Upon meeting said avatar/guardian/summon, you initiate a relationship after "proving your worth"
-Insert in game mechanics that improve/decrease your affinity with that elemental/summon

higher affinity = more options when summoning that avatar
maxed affinity = unlocks avatars ultimate attack, strongest attack available in-game along with limit breaks

after using ultimate moves, their affinity is halved or put on cooldown, whatever lore works best

This will prevent summon spamming and bring out a better image of summons, keeping them desirable and helps black magic nuking the go-to for consistent elemental damage

Only concern is summoner character needs to have an active role in battle with parties during affinity downtimes, Yuna was healing until she could summon and let things take over

Maybe using attacks/magic that has the same elemental affinity increases that avatar's affinity throughout battles, a similar idea from Chrono Cross. It would bring in new strategies and depth since elemental weakness has been a thing in FF for ages. Using an element that is resistant/weak to another element affects the avatar's affinity for better or worse

I'm not too happy with the current state of spectacular displays of summons yet end up trivial as you progress... give bosses element spam in their attacks or spells to counter-act the party from being able to raise affinity to keep boss fights challenging without resorting to cheap tactics. Smart strategies would allow parties to keep raising affinity during boss fights (even though it's slower compared to average enemies)

Bascially... tldr = summoning is a high risk, high reward system
 
(...)

Overall to me the probably with summons is that most of them tend be under powered. I think to fix this early summons should gain power with the character as the character levels up. This would be better than just increasing their power from the start as it will prevent summons from becoming too powerful early on, but also making them relevant as the game goes along. The non conventional summons should be carefully tested and evaluated. A few turn out really useful like Cerberus and Phoenix, but way too many become useless or near useless like Carbuncle. The rare ones in IV shouldn't even exist. In XV I hope we get more summons that have uses outside of battle and hopefully they are as powerful as they look. It would be really weird if something as big as Titan is dealing less damage than a quake spell.

(...)

The biggest issue imo is that FF summons tend to decline in strength as you progress through the story. Sadly, their relevance and potency dissipates as you increase in level which quickly renders them uneffective compared to your own characters' stats and strength.

SE should take a look into the FFVIII Guardian Force handling. It was a great way to manage summons without making them go to waste and maintain their relevance in battle.

Another solution could be to develope more customization and skill-tree options for each individual summon. Which, as in FFVIII, could be applicable to a certain character or a selected party.
 
Just don't turn them into scissoring lady motorcycle abominations that spend their time staring at Snow's butt or using their chests as airbags.

... FFXIII summons blow so hard.
The idea of transforming rideable summons is incredible neat, the problem with them in XIII was:

1) They consume TP which can be hard to maintain.
2) They didn't let you use them to traverse the "open areas"
3) You are most of the time doing better without them anyway

I liked the concept and the designs, Hecatoncheir final attack animation is 10/10, would never skip.

Bfw2hlt.gif


=P
 
I really enjoyed the way Odin and Gilgamesh was implemented in FF8. It was unique and looked pretty cool though it isn't perfect either with Odin being mostly useless on bosses and Gilgamesh being rather hit or miss a lot of the times. Odin can also be troublesome if you are actually trying to avoid getting kills.
 
Honestly, I think alot of jRPG boring-ness could be solved by running certain types of attack animations simultaneously. If you have several enemies attack in a row, or have attacks queued up already, they should just run the attack as soon as a hit confirms, provided there is no conflict of animations.

They need better planning and reaction. The time between battles and exploration also doesn't help.

In Chrono Trigger the game was specially planned so that battles happened instantly and ended instantly. It was a fast paced game.

These games don't need to be long, they need to be interesting.

As for summons, the way they worked in FFX was cool, but also they could just be done in a way where you only play the animation when you get the summon, and any time after that they just quickly phase in like stands from jojo's bizarre adventure.


I feel like i partially described the persona series with that lol
 
The worst is when you Grand Summon with Yuna in FFX. If my plan is to get Yuna's Overdrive high to do the Grand Summon and just use Mega Flare with Bahamut or something, I have to sit through the summoning and then sit through the attack animation again. Just the absolute worst.
 
As for summons, the way they worked in FFX was cool, but also they could just be done in a way where you only play the animation when you get the summon, and any time after that they just quickly phase in like stands from jojo's bizarre adventure.


I feel like i partially described the persona series with that lol

The worst is when you Grand Summon with Yuna in FFX. If my plan is to get Yuna's Overdrive high to do the Grand Summon and just use Mega Flare with Bahamut or something, I have to sit through the summoning and then sit through the attack animation again. Just the absolute worst.

Y'all do know you can skip the animations in X right?
 
I think they have been pretty ok for the most part. After FFX is when things went downhill fast in terms of summons. XI and XIV aside summons have been pretty useless, summons in XII were the worse in that most of them were so weak they were not even useful. Most of them had a weird requirement before you could do their big spell. Half of them would die before you could even trigger it.

Now as to what we can do to fix it i think it comes down to two big things. One they should be useful in and out of battle. Buff or perk that make these summons worth keeping around and not just replacing them with the more damaging spell. The second is time vs spectacle, me personally love the epic spells and animations of them. So i know i'm part of the few who would never skip them even if i could. I think the solution is to keep them epic but give the player choice. Let all animations be skippable. It could be a cool idea of having a normal big spell that is short but sweet and having a more drawn out epic spell be a secret code or special setup you have to enter, then you can sit back and watch the spectacle happen.
 
I don't like the circumstances for summoning in Type 0 nor XV. Having to die, to me, is a big deterrent for even trying them. I've nearly beaten Type 0 twice without summoning more than a handful of times outside mandatory event summons.

As for implementation either have them as a pseudo party member with growth options or one shot spectacles that greatly influence character growth. Having them be just an attack is a waste.
 
Y'all do know you can skip the animations in X right?

guess not :P

FFX was my favorite in the series for summons. Just excellence. FFX then FFVII for me.

How to improve on them? Dunno. FFX was just about perfect. Could fight with them when they came in, could do special attacks, could level them up and add new abilities for them, etc. etc. Was just perfect.
 
Hecatoncheir was a pretty cool design, I hope it reappears in other games, since it doesn't really clash with any existing summons, like Ixion/ Ramuh, or Ifrit/ Brunhldyr.

XIII's summons just had too many steps to get the most out of them for too high a cost, when by the time your party all had one, you were pretty powerful.

I think how they should have done it and kept the 2 step transforming summons idea is that for a smaller TP cost the summon would be added to the party, but it would lock them and their partner character into a particular role, ie. Lightining/Odin -> RAV, Fang/Bahamut -> COM, Hope/Alexander -> Medic. So you'd be trading off flexibilty for doubling down on a particular role.

Then if you decided you wanted the more powerful Gestalt form, you'd have to spend more TP to transform.
 
I think it would be interesting if you did them similarly to how they're handled in FFX, but rather than replacing the entire party they simply replace the summoner, and would be scaled with the summoner's level such that they generally have comparable stats to the rest of your party. That way you'd be summoning them based on their specific abilities and how they can be used in certain circumstances, rather than as a couple of free hits or a glorified black magic attack.
 
Summons were beyond useless in XII. They atcually had negative value in that they used up your precious MP that was much better spent on Quickenings. Plus you are probably better off with your 3 person team than with a summon both offensively and defensively.
 
In terms of the unconventional summons I think ones that inflict status effects are fine, but it does depend on what status it is and also determined by how strongly status ailments are enforced in the game.

Out of all the Final Fantasy's I played I feel that only III really enforced the use of status effects, not only because you had to self inflict some onto yourself, but also because the game was hard as fuck. Unfortunately, most of the summons didn't inflict statuses much. If a game say had a lot of magical enemies that cast powerful magic, but had high defenses and no elemental weaknesses players would eventually think to try and silence that enemy.

If you had a whole group of these then it would be hard to cast it individually on each one, so Siren would be useful in that case. You could apply a similar design to other enemies to enforce other statuses. In this case enemies should have definite weakness to the status. There shouldn't be a chance if the spell is successful or not. I found that mostly makes people use them less as they waste a turn they could have used attacking or defending.

The following statuses should have summons

Silence
Darkness
Confuse
Haste
Protect
Shell
Vanish

In the case of Silence and Darkness the summons should also inflict damage. Summons that inflict multiple statuses like Doomtrain is also preferred. IX had the right idea for multiple versions for Carbuncle, but it was executed poorly. What they should have done was let all three be options during battle and the regular versions should last a lot longer. If Carbuncle was reworked as this I think players would use it a lot more often, as it currently is, is way too situational. If you use it against a spell preferred enemy then you can't heal your party with spells anymore and if the opposing enemy is clever, it will just cast reflect on itself.

I also forgot to point out that summons do have another advantage over black magic in that they can't be reflected in addition to not losing damage power when hitting multiple enemies.
 
In terms of the unconventional summons I think ones that inflict status effects are fine, but it does depend on what status it is and also determined by how strongly status ailments are enforced in the game.

Out of all the Final Fantasy's I played I feel that only III really enforced the use of status effects, not only because you had to self inflict some onto yourself, but also because the game was hard as fuck. Unfortunately, most of the summons didn't inflict statuses much. If a game say had a lot of magical enemies that cast powerful magic, but had high defenses and no elemental weaknesses players would eventually think to try and silence that enemy.

If you had a whole group of these then it would be hard to cast it individually on each one, so Siren would be useful in that case. You could apply a similar design to other enemies to enforce other statuses. In this case enemies should have definite weakness to the status. There shouldn't be a chance if the spell is successful or not. I found that mostly makes people use them less as they waste a turn they could have used attacking or defending.

The following statuses should have summons

Silence
Darkness
Confuse
Haste
Protect
Shell
Vanish

In the case of Silence and Darkness the summons should also inflict damage. Summons that inflict multiple statuses like Doomtrain is also preferred. IX had the right idea for multiple versions for Carbuncle, but it was executed poorly. What they should have done was let all three be options during battle and the regular versions should last a lot longer. If Carbuncle was reworked as this I think players would use it a lot more often as it currently is, is way too situational. If you use it against a spell preferred enemy then you can't heal your party with spells anymore and if the opposing enemy is clever, it will just cast reflect on itself.

I also forgot to point out that summons do have another advantage over black magic in that they can't be reflected in addition to not losing damage power when hitting multiple enemies.
How about make Malboro a summon? See how enemies like dealing with that shit.
 
Just started playing VIII and really wish there were an option to turn of the animations or at least do like IX and have shorter animations 90% of the time. Really liking the upgrade system thus far
 
They should just do something crazy like each summon is a unique fusion with the char who summons it. Basically all the skills that char has becomes modified by the summon itself.
 
I think there are a few things that need to be addressed with summons.

There's the basic spectacle, the differentiation within the battle system to make it different and more interesting than just Super Black Magic, and the utility and balance - it should be *different* from other mechanics but not an easily-accessed instant-win button, but it should be genuinely useful from the beginning of the endgame to the postgame instead of overly powerful or tapering off in usefulness.
 
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