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How we got to Superman Returns

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Ignatz Mouse

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borghe said:
edit - I also believe the success of Spider-Man and X-Men also swayed Warner's thinkings.


End of story. Semi-faithful fan-friendly comics flicks do incredible business, DC/Warner wants in on the action.

Anything else is details. I don't buy for a second that AICN and fan reaction got them to reverse direction on Superman after more than a decade of ignoring the fans and being intent on a new version. Spider-Man sets box-office records, *that* gets people's attention.
 

Willco

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Ignatz Mouse said:
End of story. Semi-faithful fan-friendly comics flicks do incredible business, DC/Warner wants in on the action.

I never said Spider-Man had nothing to do with it, and actually I just stated it did. But it's not end of story. There are multiple factors for us getting Superman Returns, and I certainly never said Chris Nolan gets all the credit. He is definitely in the mix.

I don't buy for a second that AICN and fan reaction got them to reverse direction on Superman after more than a decade of ignoring the fans and being intent on a new version.

Well then, you're an idiot. But that's hardly my fault. If you don't believe that, talk to Christian Bale. Or hell, talk to Lachy Hulme, whose name is only in the Joker casting contest becase of the fans. Or talk to anyone who knows better.

Fan reaction has a direct correlation to box office success, which Warner Bros. saw firsthand with Spidey and the X-Men flicks.

GG-Duo said:
Man, Harry Knowles is such a tool.

That was one of the most disturbing and incriminating things to come out of the Abrams debacle, which was to see him backpeddle right into his firewall. Afterwards, he kept pushing the positive aspects of the script and for that matter, so did Moriarty. It's a damn shame.
 

Ignatz Mouse

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I was editing when you entered that, or I would have acknowleged it.

And fan reaction may influence casting, sure. But it's all Spider-Man (and a little X-Men) that got them to change direction. Fan reaction to leaked scripts may have reassured tehm it was the right thing to do, but fan reaction means shit compared to Spider-Man's BO records.
 

Willco

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Ignatz Mouse said:
And fan reaction may influence casting, sure. But it's all Spider-Man (and a little X-Men) that got them to change direction. Fan reaction to leaked scripts may have reassured tehm it was the right thing to do, but fan reaction means shit compared to Spider-Man's BO records.

You are missing the point here. Fan reaction doesn't just influence casting, but direction as well because of succeses Spider-Man. At which point do I say its the primary motivation factor? All signs point to never. But fan reaction definitely influences productions nowadays.

I'll show it to you another way. If the Internet did not exist and Spider-Man still came out to thunderous applause, but no outlets for fans to either express their love or hate for the project prior, during or after the production, do you think Warner Bros. would recognize that fans are a factor in box office success? No.

The truth is, Warner Bros. learned that before Spidey, when the fallout from the Batman & Robin production hit the Internet, the fans were in an uproar and the film tanked.

Anyone involved in comic book properties nowadays will tell you fans influence the production and - sure - it is the direct result of successes like Spider-Man. But stuff like that wouldn't have happened if it wasn't for the Internet. I think people forget how much stuff got removed from the first Spidey flick as a result from Internet backlash and Raimi's intuition.

Money talks, and it says, "What fans like, fans see."

If you wanted me to list a complete list of reasons why we have gotten the films we have, you could've just asked. It'd be a lot longer and more complex.
 

Ignatz Mouse

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Wilco, you don't have to be an abusive asshole. It's not how I normally think of you.

Anyway, I still don't see how leaked pre-production Batman Begins matrials and the reactions from fans weighs in at even a fraction of the influence of Spider-Man taking off, being done faithful to the comics. DC sees this as says "Oh, traditional Superheroes are the thing now." Especially when you consider the timing of the events in question.

"Fans" don't even enter into it, in their view. It's all money.
 

Willco

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Ignatz Mouse said:
Wilco, you don't have to be an abusive asshole. It's not how I normally think of you.

Anyway, I still don't see how leaked pre-production Batman Begins matrials and the reactions from fans weighs in at even a fraction of the influence of Spider-Man taking off, being done faithful to the comics. DC sees this as says "Oh, traditional Superheroes are the thing now." Especially when you consider the timing of the events in question.

"Fans" don't even enter into it, in their view. It's all money.

It's like you're reading half of what I say. I just posted:

Me said:
Money talks, and it says, "What fans like, fans see."

Warner Bros. would not know that Spidey was faithful to the comic books had fans not said, "Hey, this is fucking rad, because it's faithful to the character."

And if fans had that ability to express their distaste of certain aspects of the Spidey production (again, shit from Spidey got cut from the script thanks to fan reaction and I hardly think the Goblin attire will return thanks to fan reaction) and their joy for others, Warner Bros. would not recognize being faithful to the source material and not alienating fans equals box office gold.

But thanks to the Internet, this is not the case.

Which is fan reaction to the Batman Begins script and the leaks from the set were key in gauging how people would respond to such a film. Batman Begins is a definite result of fans, from Nolan, Goyer to the filthy talkbackers at AICN.

Confidence from that, combined with the very concrete evidence of Spider-Man, Nolan's initial pre-production stuff, Singer's Superman pitch, the inability of McG or Ratner to cast a Superman, fan hatred of Abrams script, the need to get a Superman flick out and the almighty dollar are the reasons why we are getting the film we are. In a nutshell.

Grifter said:
Has anyone chronicled the misadventures of this weasel?

Film Threat did a series of investigative articles on him, actually. Awhile back, though.
 

TheDuce22

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Jun 9, 2004
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man so you want the guy to be jesus and super man.

Its perfect isnt it? Plus he looks the part (guy on the right).


Hes much better than the average looking dude with the toothpick neck that they ended up with.
 

Simo

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Well even though they never filmed anything for the Burton/McG/Ratner stuff but they did produce alot of conceptual stuff for the projects. A handful of conceptual art for Superman Lives...
Peters/Smith/Burton Era:

Superman-Battle Suit


Superman-Resucitation Suit


Superman-Design mainly inspired to be used for merchendising and toys


The Fortress of Solitude

Various concepts for Brainiac and his Skullship:










Skullship interiors:


Various passes at Doomsday:




There is more including artwork for the Eradicator, some storyboards etc and then there's all the McG/Ratner/Abrams stuff which I might post later if I get the chance.
 

Simo

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Well here's the Superman Reborn/FlyBy stuff. Most of this hasn't been seen before to my knowledge and I had to track them down from various sources:
McG/Ratner/Abrams Era:

Kryptonian War Machines


More Kryptonian War Machines & Ships


Kal-El's escape ship


Kryptonian vehicle

Various pieces for Krypton:














 

CabbageRed

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I love some of the art depicting Kyrpton. I wonder why no said "Hey, you know what? None of us seem to give a damn about superman and have all these ideas down on paper, why not create an all new franshise?"
 

Simo

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shantyman said:
Now the question:

Where did you get all this stuff?

Thanks for posting.

Well the first 4 peices in my last post are by Harald Belker. He also did some pieces for the Superman Lives project but was pretty pissed off when the Superman FlyBy project didn't take off and even cited that the budget for the film at the time was well over $215 million.

Everything else in the post is by Mark Goerner. The previous stuff is from various Superman fansites that had exclusive interviews with the artists but have since either closed down or I've forgotten what their URL is...
 

TheOMan

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CabbageRed said:
I love some of the art depicting Kyrpton. I wonder why no said "Hey, you know what? None of us seem to give a damn about superman and have all these ideas down on paper, why not create an all new franshise?"

Seriously, I was thinking the same thing. I wouldn't like it for Superman and I'm happy they're releasing a semi-traditional one, but I would love to see some of the stuff they had cooked up in a new ip. Too bad.

Also, Willco, when you say WB doesn't care if fans hate their movies....you mean Superman fans right? Not, you know, fans in general? I'm sure that's what you meant, otherwise...that would make WB look rather stupid and make me wonder why (or how) they would still be in business.
 

Sapiens

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Beyond the Superman concepts and some of the braniac concepts, that art is really sharp. Kinda makes me wish we would have seen a finished product of it.


...but maybe not. We all know how Episode 1 looked so much more amazing in concept art.
 

Willco

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TheOMan said:
Also, Willco, when you say WB doesn't care if fans hate their movies....you mean Superman fans right? Not, you know, fans in general? I'm sure that's what you meant, otherwise...that would make WB look rather stupid and make me wonder why (or how) they would still be in business.

Does Warner Bros. care if fans hate a movie? Yeah, they do. It's bad business. Do they care about fans? Not really. Fan reaction is important to them from a business perspective, but Alan Horn and the like will not lose sleep at night if they score a resounding box office success at the risk of alienating fans.

If it were not for Spider-Man and Batman Begins, we would not be seeing Singer on Superman or Whedon on Wonder Woman.

We were this close to getting the Ratner/McG/Abrams version of Superman, and it only fell through because no one could agree who to put in tights. However, drastic shift from mega action kung fu villain toyfest to the romantic adventure film Singer has going on is a result of Warner Bros. paying attention to fans after its initial plans had already faltered.
 

Ninja Scooter

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a few things of note from this article:

1) L.O.Fucking.L at the thought of David Duchovny as Superman

2) If even half of this shit is true, in my next life i want to be a fly that hangs out in the walls of studio boardrooms. Imagine the stupid shit they say that DOESN'T get out?

3) Jon Peters must either give great head, or have some kind of connection to the best cocaine in hollywood. Thats the only reason WB could possibly stick with him so long, turning down people like Joel Silver and M. Night Shamalalanana in favor of that douchebag?
 
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Why would you want to completely recreate characters that have remained strong through decade after decade? I'm damn glad this film ended up in Singers hands. You would think that WB would have enough sense to at least require writers/directors to have read the comic.

The Doomsday concept art looks kinda cool, but it's just not Doomsday... It looks like a bulked up predator.
 

Guzim

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Ninja Scooter said:
3) Jon Peters must either give great head, or have some kind of connection to the best cocaine in hollywood. Thats the only reason WB could possibly stick with him so long, turning down people like Joel Silver and M. Night Shamalalanana in favor of that douchebag?
From IMDB
Got his break into producing while working as a hair stylist for Barbra Streisand.
:lol
 

AniHawk

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Wow. That was an amazing read.

I remember in 1997 reading on IGN that Cage was going to play the title role in Superman Lives. I thought the project as a whole was cancelled at the end of the 90s. Had no idea it was basically in constant pre-production until 2005. Wow.
 

Mr Mike

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shantyman said:
I don't watch Smallville- what inaccuracies are you talking about?

Well, the article says that Tim McCanlies is uncredited for his role in conceiveing Smallville. He has very little to do with the project - in fact, he created the Bruce Wayne TV show concept. Part of his pitch was a Smallville two-parter. As the project went on, and the the Batman Begins movie became a possibility, WB reset the TV project and went for Supes instead, getting some other guys (Miller/Gough) to make a show called Smallville. McCanlies has sued and settled with the WB over the similarities - but they're just that, similarities.

And as for the suggestion that Smallville would get cancelled early on - this isn't true. It was a ratings and advertising success (as Willco says, it's all about the green). They had no intention to get rid of something that was narratively quite removed from 'Superman' itself. There were even suggestions that Miller/Gough were trying to tie the two together at one point (there's an episode that says Jor-El visited earth, as was the backstory for the films at one point, but the episode is fairly vague on why - M/G were possibily putting this in so there'd be a clever unity and pay off between the projects).
 

teiresias

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I actually prefer the Burton black battle suit design to the utterly gay bikini underwear on the current new suit - and I'm gay so I'm allowed such an opinion. :D
 

Mike Works

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I'd like to thank the original post in this thread for keeping me preoccupied whenever I had nothing to do at work today, great read.

Anyone know if there's something similar for Batman Begins?
 

Willco

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Mike Works said:
Anyone know if there's something similar for Batman Begins?

Not all pieced together, unfortunately. Superman is probably more interesting, because of the cast of characters involved (Burton, Peters, etc.).

The most interesting thing to see is how the mass merchandising tie-in model of the late 80s and 90s is dead, as a result of Warner Bros. antics. Guys like Joel Schumacher and Jon Peters came from the school of thought that movies existed to sell toys, but like I said before, it only works if you've got a good product. A popular brand name can only take you so far before you implode in your own crap.
 

ManaByte

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When Batman & Robin was being released the internet fan stuff was in its early days, but the fan backlash over that movie had something to do with Superman because after the furor over the JJ Abrams script some people were worried they'd have another Batman & Robin on their hands where the movie was dead to people before it even hit theaters.
 

LakeEarth

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Vinzer Deling said:
Who's faster? Flash or Superman?
"I envision the flash besing 20 times faster, 2000 times bigger, and instead of the red suit, how bout black leather! Oh and lets make him merge with the Green Lantern to make Fleen Lantash! And I don't even know who the fuck the Green Lantern is!" - Burton
 
M

muphins

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That could've been summed up and saved me an hour and a half.
 

Alex De Large

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what kinda retard would read that? I'd rather read a book about something interesting. and i keep wasting my time as i type, goddamn forums are gay
 

jett

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Doesn't have to do much with this thread...but after seeing the SR trailer for the twentieth time I have to say that it's probably the most awesome movie trailer I've seen. Perfect in nearly every way...I hope the final movie doesn't disappoint. :p

Alex De Large said:
what kinda retard would read that? I'd rather read a book about something interesting. and i keep wasting my time as i type, goddamn forums are gay

Oh yeah, you're going to last long around these parts.
 
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