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How would you rate Dan Houser's writing ability?

R

RadioHammer500

Banned
Alot of people, it seems like to crap on Houser's writing....and alot of people criticized the satire writing of GTA V, and etc. and past Rockstar games

I think Houser does alot better when his games have a theme like Red Dead, Bully etc...I just think he gets kind of lazy with the GTA games, but what is your opinion on his writing

is it that objectively bad?

is it time for Dan to step down and have some new writers for R*?

what do you guys think
 
Pretty good for video game writing. I enjoy the conversations in RDR and GTAIV/V between characters, even if some are a bit outlandish, which is kinda the point for some.
 
RadioHammer500 said:
but he is president of creativity..so i think he does most the writing and concepts
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the games are written by like 3-4 people and Rockstar keeps it pretty behind doors, so it's kinda hard to rate this sorta thing onto one person

I think all the dialogue is pretty great, tho, and I care a lot more about characters than plot

they know this since they amped it up for GTAV and it worked wonders
 
I don't know about objectively bad, but I'd say on-the-nose and painfully unsubtle would be good descriptors. GTA V's writing is on the same level as those political cartoons where all the characters have little signs with their names written on them hanging around their necks. "I was just day-trading all my money away while my wife fucks her tennis coach and the government forecloses on my house and my son won't get a jaaahb because he spends all day on those damn video games. Why, what's up with you Trevor?" "I'M GONNA SKULLFUCK YOU! RAAAGH!"
 
SalsaShark said:
the games are written by like 3-4 people and Rockstar keeps it pretty behind doors, so it's kinda hard to rate this sorta thing onto one person

I think all the dialogue is pretty great, tho, and I care a lot more about characters than plot

they know this since they amped it up for GTAV and it worked wonders
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your right..just looked he always has at least 2 co-writers it seems
 
ShooterMcGavin said:
GTA IV had a pretty solid story.
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I never found the story very compelling to be honest. I found Nico's backstory more interesting. It always felt incongruous to me, Nico leaves to America hoping for a better life, but ends up doing bad stuff anyways while trying to get revenge, even though he wants to start over.

All in all, I felt GTAIV had great writing, realized characters, but a forgettable story.
 
matrix-cat said:
I don't know about objectively bad, but I'd say on-the-nose and painfully unsubtle would be good descriptors. GTA V's writing is on the same level as those political cartoons where all the characters have little signs with their names written on them hanging around their necks. "I was just day-trading all my money away while my wife fucks her tennis coach and the government forecloses on my house and my son won't get a jaaahb because he spends all day on those damn video games. Why, what's up with you Trevor?" "I'M GONNA SKULLFUCK YOU! RAAAGH!"
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Basically, the games often think merely pointing out archetypes achieves satire. I won't lie. It's pretty entertaining sometimes, but I'd hesitate to call it good.
 
Makoto Yuki said:
I never found the story very compelling to be honest. I found Nico's backstory more interesting. It always felt incongruous to me, Nico leaves to America hoping for a better life, but ends up doing bad stuff anyways while trying to get revenge.

All in all, I felt GTAIV had great writing, realized characters, but a forgettable story.
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yeah i think Dan and his co-writers tend to focus more on characters driving the story instead of the story driving the characters..

the story of GTA V wasn't that good, but i feel like many fans enjoyed the trio and their personalities and interactions with each other
 
Another vote for great characters and awful plots. I mean GTAV had some really well fleshed out characters who could project a whole lot about their personality in a really short time, but then the plot was about as flat and one note as it could possibly get. There's a really strange disconnect in the quality.
 
antitrop said:
Dan should continue writing his wacky, crazy characters, but somebody else should take over plot reins.
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Agreed. Also have someone else do the political humor. It's so god damn bad. The son in GTA V's entitlement speech and Trevor's post-torture scene speech were just cringeworthy.
 
antitrop said:
Dan should continue writing his wacky, crazy characters, but somebody else should take over plot reins.
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This i agree with.

Also, GTA (compared to Bully or Red Dead) has the disadvantage of having gone for the same targets for year and years now.
There's so many times you can make jokes about vapid Hollywood starlets, before they start to sound hollow and trite.
That and the fact that old and new GTAs stylistically clash, so it becomes more and more jarring to see a dick pun in GTAV, in a way that wasn't in GTA3.

He still can write funny and often interesting characters though.
 
Hatchtag said:
Agreed. Also have someone else do the political humor. It's so god damn bad. The son in GTA V's entitlement speech and Trevor's post-torture scene speech were just cringeworthy.
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to be fair i somewhat disagree with the criticism of Rockstar's humour. I don't think Dan, Rockstar etc. are trying to hide from the fact, GTA humour/satire has always been extremely blunt, in your face

i don't think Rockstar is intending to be subtle with it....if they are, then they are doing an awful job then lol
 
RadioHammer500 said:
yeah i think Dan and his co-writers tend to focus more on characters driving the story instead of the story driving the characters..

the story of GTA V wasn't that good, but i feel like many fans enjoyed the trio and their personalities and interactions with each other
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Yeah, I can see that.

I really enjoyed John Marston's story because it is finite. I enjoyed GTA V's story because it does things you can't do unless you have three characters to contril. Like you said, it's driven by the character.
 
I don't know if he's the guy, or if there are multiple people at Rockstar responsible for it, but at least one writer at that company thinks that they have a sense of humour and can write jokes, and they need to please, please, just... stop.
 
matrix-cat said:
I don't know about objectively bad, but I'd say on-the-nose and painfully unsubtle would be good descriptors. GTA V's writing is on the same level as those political cartoons where all the characters have little signs with their names written on them hanging around their necks. "I was just day-trading all my money away while my wife fucks her tennis coach and the government forecloses on my house and my son won't get a jaaahb because he spends all day on those damn video games. Why, what's up with you Trevor?" "I'M GONNA SKULLFUCK YOU! RAAAGH!"
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Yeah again, that's always been GTA style, it was a very loud and on the nose dark crime comedy, using crime cinema stereotypes in a comedic light (look at GTA3 and Vice City especially, for this).
With San Andreas and, especially, GTAIV, it started to have more "serious" ambitions, and it started to become an idiosyncrasy.
 
GTA V really isn't satire... it's not that lofty. It's not try to be satire, not even remotely. It just uses parody caricatures for humour -- it's not as a critique. It's just silly parody that's rather minor and inconsequential to the actual story. There's some cultural and political satire in some of the talk radio and TV cartoons (some of it rather offensive haha e.g. Fernado compares the US debt ceiling to a girl's hymen and soon as her virginity is gone, it will be freeing and empowering a la printing more debt) but very little in the story and not of it significant to the characters or the story.

The writing of the dialogue is V is great... Michael has a lot of subtle dry wit. Lamar and Franklin are hilarious, a la Chris Tucker and Ice Cube in Friday (film). But the story rather simple and typical. Somewhat by intention, I think, as the focus is meant to be more on just the caricatures and their banter a la a crime-comedy sitcom. It's not a drama nor is trying to be...

It's really more like a crime-comedy sitcom where the foundation is less story and characterization but rather basic plot as a platform for the caricatures' banter and dialogue.
 
GTA V is so thick with satire that it makes the entire world look like a twisted view of an extreme cynic. For me it always feels weird and uncomfortable. The way people react to things around them, the radio, various side mission or even main plot characters feel too off-base from reality. But it is still close enough that it triggers a sort of weird uncanny valley effect.

That being said, the world of GTA is not just in V. You'll find it in every GTA game. If you don't like how GTA is being written, well, go find another series. It is deeply ingrained into the DNA of GTA. The majority does not want a serious GTA, that takes away from the fun of it. Don't go in expecting "Sopranos: The Game". Don't go in expecting Max Payne or Red Dead Redemption. If you go in expecting a game where there may or may not be multiple scenes involving anal violation, then congrats, you are prepared for Grand Theft Auto.
 
SalsaShark said:
the games are written by like 3-4 people and Rockstar keeps it pretty behind doors, so it's kinda hard to rate this sorta thing onto one person

I think all the dialogue is pretty great, tho, and I care a lot more about characters than plot

they know this since they amped it up for GTAV and it worked wonders
Click to expand...
Pretty much how I feel. I do enjoy most of the cutscenes in their games. The dialogue and the voice work tend to be pretty excellent.
 
I loved GTA V, my only issue with the story is that Franklin felt like he wasn't fully fleshed out as a character compared to Michael and Trevor, almost like they had more plans for him but ran out of time.

Outside of that, probably my favorite game story of 2013.
 
antitrop said:
Dan should continue writing his wacky, crazy characters, but somebody else should take over plot reins.
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The opposite of this. The weirdos in GTA (and even RDR) are nothing but coked up, juvenile stereotypes, and usually are stupid to the point of being obnoxious. I hate them.

The overarching narratives of their games are usually pretty good, especially in RDR.
 
I've never been a big fan of Rockstar's narrative style and characterization (yay stereotypes!), but I never actually cared until it infected Max Payne. Whether it was Dan Houser or someone else who was responsible for that, Sam Lake they definitely ain't.
 
I've never really enjoyed the story/characters in a Rockstar game.

RDR had forced missions that seemed completely contradictory to the characters values. It really grated with me.
 
Red Dead Redemption was very good, one of my favorite stories in gaming. Marston was a fantastic character and I thought it was unique setting it at the end of the era.

But everything else has been hit and miss for me. Max Payne 3 had a few good points but I have a lot of issues with it and GTA V started out pretty strong but fell apart later on.
 
Trike said:
GTA V is so thick with satire that it makes the entire world look like a twisted view of an extreme cynic. For me it always feels weird and uncomfortable. The way people react to things around them, the radio, various side mission or even main plot characters feel too off-base from reality. But it is still close enough that it triggers a sort of weird uncanny valley effect.

That being said, the world of GTA is not just in V. You'll find it in every GTA game. If you don't like how GTA is being written, well, go find another series. It is deeply ingrained into the DNA of GTA. The majority does not want a serious GTA, that takes away from the fun of it. Don't go in expecting "Sopranos: The Game". Don't go in expecting Max Payne or Red Dead Redemption. If you go in expecting a game where there may or may not be multiple scenes involving anal violation, then congrats, you are prepared for Grand Theft Auto.
Click to expand...

There's a difference between asking them to change their tone and style, and asking them to not write the same boring trite shit over and over again about someone getting pulled back in. Or using terrible metaphors and trying to appear meta about hot button topics like torture. And I think they've gone from satire into full on cynic myself, it's boring.
 
foolishoptimist said:
RDR had forced missions that seemed completely contradictory to the characters values. It really grated with me.
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I feel like most Rockstar protagonist end up doing working with unsavory folk for the sake of the story.

It was just more prevalent in RDR because Marston is painted as a reformed outlaw. I kinda got past this ludonarrative dissonance weirdness in RDR by telling myself John will do anything to get back to his family.
 
Gonna echo the sentiment that someone else needs to take point on the story. The character interaction in GTA 5 was absolutely stellar, one of the best aspects of the game, at least in my opinion. But there was just way too much of characters not being able to say no for the sake of moving the story along or making a point.

Its been pointed out to death, but I think the ultimate example of this is Franklin and that one paparazzi dude. He's a caricature of a caricature, and then ratcheted up to 11. Franklin is understandably disgusted by his behavoir, but lo and behold he just winds up helping him anyways just because he was told to.
 
UrbanRats said:
This i agree with.

Also, GTA (compared to Bully or Red Dead) has the disadvantage of having gone for the same targets for year and years now.
There's so many times you can make jokes about vapid Hollywood starlets, before they start to sound hollow and trite.
That and the fact that old and new GTAs stylistically clash, so it becomes more and more jarring to see a dick pun in GTAV, in a way that wasn't in GTA3.

He still can write funny and often interesting characters though.
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Man, you can't talk about the original GTAs not having dick jokes, when the main pop radio station since the first game was Head Radio. The name of the DJ of that station in GTA III? Mike Hunt.

GTA has had a very consistent tone throughout the series, it hasn't changed as much as some believe. It's always been potty humor at its core.

EDIT: I misunderstood you. Now that I understand what you're saying, I don't really get what you mean by "stylistically clash".
 
I thought GTaV was great satire until it dawned on me its just a very stereotypical view of America from a European's perspective.
 
I find Red Dead Redemption to be one of the best Westerns ever written. It also has one of the best endings in gaming, which for some reason people don't understand.

Bite size explanation of ending:

The game is about the death of the west and John Martson is the last cowboy. The last of his own gang, the last of the roving gunslingers, and his death is symbolic of this greater theme. Marston's death is the definitive end of the Wild West, which is the backdrop of the entire game. Even the back of the box says "the Wild West is dying." Cars, phones, police departments, John Martson was dead before the game even began.
 
antitrop said:
Man, you can't talk about the original GTAs not having dick jokes, when the main pop radio station since the first game was Head Radio. The name of the DJ of that station in GTA III? Mike Hunt.

GTA has had a very consistent tone throughout the series, it hasn't changed as much as some believe. It's always been potty humor at its core.
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I don't think he was saying GTA3 didn't have dick jokes, but that the dick jokes felt better there than they do in GTA5.
 
Bully, followed by RDR, are still the best things they've done. I'd really like to see a sequel to Bully, but take place in the future like 20 years. They can do a mash up with American Psycho and have the kid trying to work his way to the top of some corporation, and dealing with all the sharks in the firm. Imagine having to look in co-workers planners to steal clients by wining and dining them, All the minigames would make more sense; tennis meeting with a client, then get to a restaurant and pretend to be a coworker and steal their 11:30. And of course, business card battles. They wouldn't even have to build a new city.

Fucking hire me, Hauser.
 
Corpekata said:
I don't think he was saying GTA3 didn't have dick jokes, but that the dick jokes felt better there than they do in GTA5.
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Yeah, I figured that out a bit late, after re-reading the post a few times. Now I just want to know what he means by the old GTAs "stylistically clashing" with the new ones. I feel like the games have been very consistent throughout the franchise. GTA V feels like a logical progression of the PS2 GTAs, to me.
 
I didn't play Red Dead or Bully, so I feel it would be a bit unfair to perhaps criticize his writing ability based on that limited knowledge, but I can comment on GTA IV, which I've played to completion multiple times, and I have to say that the story is quite mediocre and the game's theme threads a thin line between satire and commentary that makes it hard to comment on whether some characters are stereotypical or funny, and honestly I think they are a bit of both.

I can appreciate GTA IV for what it is but I think the only reason it stands out and why Dan House's writing ability is being commented on is because of the level of success the series has seen. I don't think GTA's success has much to do with its writing. The writing surely is part of it, but I don't recall the last time I heard someone say "oh wow, I can't wait for the next GTA to see how the story will go" whereas there are other series with significantly better stories in which the writing is indeed one of the aspects that people appreciate the most.

With that said, I think the level of writing we have in most videogames is so low that it doesn't take a lot for a writer to stand out. I think that most companies still treat stories as something second-in-nature for most games and it's common for us to see articles about companies hiring writers for their games for games we thought would be close to completion.
 
I'm convinced at this point my enjoyment of red dead's story was a fluke.

GTAV and MP3 were some of the most pretentious, waste of time plots I've ever seen in a video game.
 
Valkrai said:
It was decent but it was dull and slow in terms of progression.
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I like the the idea of GTA IV's story 1,000x more than the execution. It made for a really great first trailer (Things Will Be Different).

GTA V was the same way, really. Michael's trailer showed an insane amount of potential for his story, which completely sputters out about 10 hours into the game. When Amanda takes off with the kids, everything interesting about his character goes with them and never comes back out, until it's almost time for the credits.
 
GTA IV put a really bad taste in my mouth as far as Rockstar's handling of parody goes. It's as if they want it to be serious satire, yet everything is as unsubtle as a shovel to the face with "YA GET IT?" written on the front. Mean and stupid, really. Everyone but the protagonists seem to be hyperactive caricatures that only exist to magnify how even-keel they want yours to seem. It's all very transparent and not at all endearing.
 
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