Barbacoatl
Banned
Sure, only Mexico has responsibility. Not its consumer, arm providing, drug outlawing, world-police complex neighbor.Wish Mexico could nuke the cartel gangs as well
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Hugo Chavez has died (rumor)
- Thread starter Yen
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BertramCooper
Banned
Woof.
I don't feel good about this. If a powerful man dies from cancer, what hope is there for the rest of us?
It should serve to highlight the need to find proper prevention, detection, and treatment techniques to ensure that humanity overcomes that terrible disease that looms over so many of us.
It should serve to highlight the need to find proper prevention, detection, and treatment techniques to ensure that humanity overcomes that terrible disease that looms over so many of us.
Synth_floyd
Banned
LOL
No but I have friends there, not to mention what Chavez did with the Farc directly affected me in Colombia.
Nowhere near the same levels, machado himself got fired because he didn't "support the revolution", imagine the shitstorm that would create if in the US someone gets fired for supporting or not supporting Obama. and thats barely the tip of the iceberg, he practically ruled by decree, everything he said was written into law, thats why I had to laugh at you mentioning separation of powers, there's corruption everywhere, true, but the levels in Venezuela are off the charts. Chavez and his party pulled out stuff that would get Obama out of the office in no time.
We all love to complain about our own countries, but you have no idea how good you have it over there.
So because America outlaws drugs its our fault Mexico becomes overwhelmed with drug gangs? That makes no sense. Mexico is responsible for their own drug criminals. Most first world countries outlaw the same drugs as America.
Angry Fork
Member
I think this is why the talk of bringing in a right wing pro-financial guy is bunk. It's one thing to say Chavez made stupid decisions but to say those decisions should be fixed by putting a Reaganite in his place is ridiculous to me.
Can you provide evidence/links for this? I don't mean this in a sarcastic combative way I'm being honest. People on the right keep saying this and I'd like to know what their argument actually is.
Empty Space
Member
A popular one is he broke apart large privately owned farm properties and then turned them into smaller government farms where the poorest of the poor could get work. This was done on the pretense that these privately owned farms were not efficiently serving the people. The irony is that these farms now produce almost nothing they sit there empty, because the poor can't or won't work.
Devolution
Member
So your friends mean more than our friends. Okay.
I don't see where you're going. That wasn't the argument at all.
It was about the effect of the policies, and I think it just logically follows if the conditions for the poor people are unchanged.
Seventeen hour self aggrandizing speeches, belief that he is the reincarnated Simon Bolivar, religious zealotry and moon landing denial.
A good, short, read from when Hitchens tagged along with Sean Penn.
Synth_floyd
Banned
People with big egos are creepy.
Vulcano's assistant
Banned
I don't think I could remember any policy if I tried, someone else would have better luck than me translating it at this hour. However, it is true that I really didn't wanted to say that it was really the whole nation, except a few, who ended up worse, although I believed it to be true. I thought that it would have seemed too emotional.
malingenie
Member
My mom and grandma literally do pray for his death.
Razgriz-Specter
Member
First thing I thought ofWeekend at Hugo's!
He may not be dead, but that has got to be a lot of make-up on him.
Vulcano's assistant
Banned
I don't know what his argument will be, but chances are that he is not from the right. In fact, I would expect him to be far more to the left that most Democrats in the US.
Barbacoatl
Banned
Most countries (in fact none) don't consume the amount of drugs the U.S. does. Most countries don't illegally export assault weapons to their neighbors. Most countries attourney generals don't get in a hot mess because of failed operations to bait criminals. I hate to break it to you, but the power of the cartels is in big part due to corruption from both countries. Most of the drugs enter the country under the nose of border officials. How come? Many of them are in the pockets of the cartels.
We need to clean home, it's true, but it really intrigues how in the world having such a menace next door, the empire chooses to fight invisible wars accross the atlantic.
ING money laundering ring a bell to you? You really think there are no american drug kingpins?
This is a shared problem, but sadly one of the parties keeps downplaying it. It isn't MX.
I won't derail the thread more.
To be fair, US politicians have their fair share of marathon speeches, science denial, religious zealotry, and supernatural relations with nonexistent beings.
Devolution
Member
Those same things have set back contraceptive rights even.
Flatline
Banned
Agreed, these assholes only care about making multinational corporations and the local elite happy. I think semi-incompetent politician with good intentions beats malevolent assholes every time in my book. He might be a stubborn idiot but at least he's dedicated to helping the poor, see the public housing project for example.
Winterfang
Banned
Does America has to babysit every country in the world? Blame it on the disgustingly corrupt government.
Barbacoatl
Banned
I bet the God he's praying to is all joyous from the requests.
"Sure, my people, I will kill this irredeemable man".
Devolution
Member
You might want to read up on how we fucked over their farmers and tanked their Peso thanks to NAFTA, Clinton and Greenspan.
Barbacoatl
Banned
No, they don't have to, same reason they don't have to start sterile, useless, deadly, failed "wars on drugs". I would add to the list of people to blame disgustingly addicted junkies.
Capriles ideas always seemed more similar to Brazilian style of government to me, Chavez government is closer to Cuba socialism.
1) A substantial portion of the drug market is not disgustingly addicted junkies. The main drug in the war on drugs produces no "disgustingly addicted junkies"
2) It's pretty unfair, even absurd, to blame the guy shooting heorin four times a day under a bridge for a multinational failure of governance. That's like blaming the uninformed people who signed up for easy mortgages for the financial collapse.
I sincerely doubt he has good intentions, he's trying to get personal power under the disguise of helping the poor. It's just easier to get the uneducated on your side.
There are several things pointing toward the many of the poor are getting it worse off under him (I guess some things getting worse could be attributed to the global financial crisis, but not all), and there's no doubt that he lies about a lot of things as well.
More underweight babies born and less households with access to clean water aren't really impressive, however these things increased before the global financial crisis.
An example of outright lying is that he said that he had eliminated illiteracy with his hugely succesful project some years ago, while in fact the only literacy change during the period was in line with the demographic trend.
Barbacoatl
Banned
I agree with you, I was just flipping the tables on him and his 'hollier than thou' attitude.
D
Deleted member 80556
Unconfirmed Member
I certainly hope he didn't die, if he did, he'll be a martyr for his followers, who will want to continue his Bolivarian revolution idea (to which other South American presidents might follow). This is something that is quite talked in my country, and was actually feared four years ago that Venezuela would go into war with Colombia over the North American bases in the latter country.
No offense man, I'm from Colombia-GAF (hey there neighbor!), and through my national news, they have accused Venezuela of censoring certain things through the news. Just my two cents.
No offense man, I'm from Colombia-GAF (hey there neighbor!), and through my national news, they have accused Venezuela of censoring certain things through the news. Just my two cents.
thezerofire
Banned
A lot of people do exactly this
zero shift
Banned
I highly doubt that this is true. If it is however RIP. I may not have agreed with this guy and have a lot of criticisms for him but few will doubt that he had done some good (as well as bad).
I will admit that the guy gets way too much love from the left as they ignore his abuse of power and the right as they ignore countries around the area that are far worse (such as Colombia who have death squads that kill homeless people).
I really REALLY hate to be that guy...but I have to say it. Most Venezuelan gaffers are middle class or above which means they most likely dislike the guy. Chavez appeals mostly to the poor. Venezuela's a third world country you aren't going to get a full picture by talking to a specific group of people. As someone who has talked to tons of people from the country he seems to have had a very mixed effect. Great on social programs and eliminating poverty, and to a degree has changed how Venezuela works. But he's bad in censoring the media and abusing his power. But then again it IS Venezuela so it isn't that uncommon.
Venezuela has always had a history of this. In some ways Chavez is much more friendly to free speech than his predecessors. One example is that he doesn't send police to attack protestors on a regular basis.
For what's its worth from the Venezuelans I've talked to I find his claims be largely exaggerated.
The main problem with this is that Chavez hasn't really built a path for the poor to move up. Sure they get more money and they aren't starving, but how do they move past the slums? This is my main criticism of Chavez. You can give the poor food and here all you want, but at the end of the day you need to design an economy and job market to life them out of the situation they are in. Chavez has hardly done that. He should look at his semi-follower Correa for some inspiration.
This something I feel that most Pro-Chavez people forget.
I will admit that the guy gets way too much love from the left as they ignore his abuse of power and the right as they ignore countries around the area that are far worse (such as Colombia who have death squads that kill homeless people).
I really REALLY hate to be that guy...but I have to say it. Most Venezuelan gaffers are middle class or above which means they most likely dislike the guy. Chavez appeals mostly to the poor. Venezuela's a third world country you aren't going to get a full picture by talking to a specific group of people. As someone who has talked to tons of people from the country he seems to have had a very mixed effect. Great on social programs and eliminating poverty, and to a degree has changed how Venezuela works. But he's bad in censoring the media and abusing his power. But then again it IS Venezuela so it isn't that uncommon.
Venezuela has always had a history of this. In some ways Chavez is much more friendly to free speech than his predecessors. One example is that he doesn't send police to attack protestors on a regular basis.
For what's its worth from the Venezuelans I've talked to I find his claims be largely exaggerated.
The main problem with this is that Chavez hasn't really built a path for the poor to move up. Sure they get more money and they aren't starving, but how do they move past the slums? This is my main criticism of Chavez. You can give the poor food and here all you want, but at the end of the day you need to design an economy and job market to life them out of the situation they are in. Chavez has hardly done that. He should look at his semi-follower Correa for some inspiration.
This something I feel that most Pro-Chavez people forget.
zero shift
Banned
Did you seriously just link me to amateur youtube videos?
Angry Fork
Member
Why not just say you think socialism = dictatorship, now at least we know where you stand with your support of Reaganites.
NYCmetsfan
Banned
Cnn in spanish is saying they can't confirm this
https://twitter.com/CNNEE/status/306968235205615616
https://twitter.com/CNNEE/status/306968235205615616
Barbacoatl
Banned
You always go around wishing people death?
If this lunatic was wishing death to an American politician he would be instabanned. He has done it repeatedly in Chavez threads. Double standards much neogaf?
only the ones that make my life miserable
Mgoblue201
Won't stop picking the right nation
Venezuela operates within an implicit atmosphere of intimidation. Here's a 2010 UN report documenting the problems of press freedom:
The gradual erosion of press freedom in Venezuela continued in 2010. The media landscape featured political intimidation by government officials and state-owned media in their opinion programs, laws restricting the exercise of basic human rights, systematic judicial and administrative harassment of opposition outlets, economic threats against independent media, and physical attacks against journalists amid a worsening climate of common criminality.
While freedoms of speech and the press are constitutionally guaranteed, the legal environment is characterized by standing threats of arbitrary detention, charges, fines, and sentences, as well as license manipulation and other administrative harassment aimed at opposition media, primarily broadcast stations and daily newspapers.
And a more recent report from 2013:
Venezuela is not an electoral democracy. While the act of voting is relatively free and the count has become fairer since 2006, the political playing field favors government-backed candidates, and the separation of powers is virtually nonexistent.
Furthermore, the oil industry has been nationalized since the 1970s.
zero shift
Banned
Link. Most sources I see say different, particularly with the second report.
Edit - Thats from the think tank Freedom House not the UN.
I will also make note that Venezuela is hardly ideal for freedom of the press, but its not as bad as some sources make it out to be. Especially when you compare it to other third world countries in the area.
Barbacoatl
Banned
Both Chavez and Cristina? Do you own stock in both globovision and repsol or something?
Vulcano's assistant
Banned
I will give you that he really does seem to try to push these policies you talk of, but really, one cannot stress enough how crippled the government is because of his decisions about the bureaucracy. The worse thing about Chavez is not exactly him, but all the people who got offices because they only needed to be loyal.
zero shift
Banned
This is true. Venezuela was a corrupt mess before Chavez got in and still is. It's ridiculous how he doesn't address this. Don't get me twisted I don't blindly love Chavez, I just feel that he gets hated too much here. People talk about him as if he's Joseph Stalin.
I really wonder why the left doesn't cling to Correa instead? His policies aren't too different from Chavez and he's been more successful.
empty vessel
Member
What is miserable about your life?
Vulcano's assistant
Banned
Oh sorry, I did not intent to get your point twisted, your point was clear. It was my fault, sort of like a habit of mine to start sentences with "I will give you that...".
Mgoblue201
Won't stop picking the right nation
I know, I was a little careless with my attribution since I was quoting from a UN site. But it's hardly an obscure opinion. The government is known to routinely influence the election by flouting press freedom and monitoring political activity (though I don't deny that Chavez has a significant support base even without the need to influence the mechanisms of the state in his favor). Furthermore, there are several countries in the region, such as Chile, Uruguay, and even Brazil, that have already moved well passed Venezuela on the issue of individual rights. Venezuela is increasingly looking like an anachronism in a liberalizing continent.
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