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[RetrospectiveLamb]

If I had to choose between the two, I agree with you, especially about Sticker Star screw that game. In general, I think a game with a good story gives me so much more motivation to play and is more enjoyable because it allows me to become more attached to the atmosphere/characters/setting. My best example is TellTale's Walking Dead season 1, I thought the gameplay itself felt like a chore, but the story was so strong it made the game one of my most memorable gaming experiences. There is nothing quite like being engulfed in an awesome videogame story. Only game I can think of where I was totally recently engulfed in gameplay was Diablo 3, Rogue Legacy, Spelunky, or Geometry Wars.

 

[Give War A Chance]

Yes.

If you have a better definition than Sid Meiers famous

I would non-sarcastically love to hear it.

Calm yourself! Not positive why you're implying that I am disagreeing with you; quite the opposite. But I've never heard anyone else ever agree with me before. Just a bit shocking to me.

 

[eso76]

Playing games for their story is ok
Playing games for their graphics is ok
Playing games for their music is ok.
Playing games for their gameplay is ok.

People play games for different reasons, or different combinations of reasons.

It's not always your duty to come running and ruin someone's fun by telling them their low standards are determined by their lack of knowledge of more noble mediums where better examples of what they like can be found.

Ignorance isn't Always the reason. There are rational and less rational explanations for that.

Rational, would be (in regards to story) there's something special about the way the story unfolds in an interactive medium, the way you're engrossed with stronger bonds to a character you can control and being a marginally active part of a story.

Less rational:
Being on neogaf, we're all videogame fans. When your favorite medium achieves semi decent levels in areas that are not typically their forte, it's a triumph.
A decent OST suddenly becomes the best thing since the dark side of the moon.
When cutscenes finally started to show some basic understanding of cinematography, you'd swear Kojima could show Tarantino how it's done. Etc.

it's in your favorite form of entertainment; this gives every aspect of it some sort of boost.

It's like when your favorite band takes a shot at a different genre with decent results. Other bands are much more succesfull at that particular genre but you either don't know, or just don't care and end up loving a song in a genre you never particularly cared about.

 

[MrNyarlathotep]

Calm yourself! Not positive why you're implying that I am disagreeing with you; quite the opposite. But I've never heard anyone else ever agree with me before. Just a bit shocking to me.

Sorry if my tone was misread - I wasn't having a go, and the non-sarcastically description was aimed at me, because I have never encountered a definition of what game design is really about as concise and satisfactory as Sid Meiers famous 5 word "a series of interesting choices".

It honestly wasn't a challenge to prove me wrong, its just "what is a game?" is a very difficult concept to articulate as a definition. I really would love to hear a better definition, but I have never found one.

EDIT:
(because I missed this earlier)

"Choices" is a slightly inflated way to say interaction, which can be potentially obscuring. Essentially he just said "games are things you interact with" or "good games are those with interesting interaction".

No. A choice is not a synonym for an interaction.
A choice inherently has a cost and a consequence in the choice not taken.

An interesting choice is a choice where all available options have some merit, and there is some effort in deciding to choose one valid thing over another.

 

[Empyrean Heaven]

I think the gameplay and story can work hand in hand for me. I wouldn't say that story is more important, but they can be equally so.

 

[Saven]

Normally I am a gameplay > story and think that it's pretty much impossible for a game to be great when it's flipped around. But there are some rare exceptions where story > gameplay can actually work. Obviously genres like adventure games where story is usually the drawing point of the game. But the exceptions I am talking about are games like Xenogears. The gameplay in that one was ok, but the story was really good enough to keep me engaged long enough to completely ignore some of the issues that the game has on the gameplay side.

It doesn't always work, but sometimes it can.

 

[thesolidshark]

Thanks for picking up on my response.
As for why I have a hard time going back to it, I'm not entirely sure, but I can try to break it down (no spoilers):

Thanks man, this is kind of the rundown for TLOU I was hoping for. Sooner or later I'll see if I agree with how well-received and/or forced the story is, and see if it's worth playing more than once.

 

[Morrigan Stark]

Instead of having gameplay vs story, we should have a gameplay vs art direction, or art direction vs story, or art direction vs soundrtack. People who say they only care about gameplay and nothing else, I really wonder how much of that is true when art and sound design have such an impact towards one's enjoyment of a game.

 

[Chmpocalypse]

Gameplay > Everything else.

Always. This isn't an opinion. Its a fact.

No, that's still just an opinion.

 

[Chmpocalypse]

I probably enjoyed the first season of Walking Dead way more than most other games. So yeah.

It was my 2012 GOTY.

 

[Chmpocalypse]

You have bad taste, sorry. Gameplay is king when it comes to videogames. If you want story over that, just rent a tv series or a good book. Also, see why Nintendo still gets it more than 25 years later despite being third in the "console war."

Such an asshole comment.

 

[Skilletor]

Such an asshole comment.

Do you have something against editing? lol @ triple post.

 

[Nanashrew]

Instead of having gameplay vs story, we should have a gameplay vs art direction, or art direction vs story, or art direction vs soundrtack. People who say they only care about gameplay and nothing else, I really wonder how much of that is true when art and sound design have such an impact towards one's enjoyment of a game.

I think a lot of people generally agrees that art, music and sound design are important. In fact, those are huge factors in games all over with or without story. For example on the pure game side, sound and visual design are the utmost important things in an action game for audio and visual cues. If those weren't so present then the games would be absolute crap.

 

[Chmpocalypse]

Meaning the gameplay wasn't as shitty as some thought.

Also, I meant fun as fun to play in the active sense of enjoying something interactive. You can like an environment, a story but it's not what "fun" is in video games imo.

You don't decide what's fun for others. That's literally impossible for you to do, so please stop pretending you're an authority on the matter.

 

[Apoleptica]

Only game with good enough story to forgive the bad gameplay I can think of is the walking dead.

 

[Laconic]

Do you have something against editing? lol @ triple post.

I think he was going for having that post be positionally analogous unto itself.

 

[Rodney McKay]

Only game with good enough story to forgive the bad gameplay I can think of is the walking dead.

Wasn't even enough for me for that game to be honest. I stopped playing at the first "puzzle" where I needed to clumsily lumber around a store and find batteries for a remote control. But then again I really have no interest in Zombie/Apocalypse stories, so I can't fault the game for not holding my interest.

But I do agree that adventure games can be a good category for story over gameplay. I've never really liked the whole "find item/combine item with another item/use item on object" puzzles a lot of Lucasarts adventure games are built on, but I find the games humorous enough to get me through that stuff.

JRPGs used to be this way with me too. Random encounters and turnbased battles always seemed like bland at best and archaic at worst when I was a kid, but they're mostly over quickly, can usually be trivialized by overleveling, and allow for the games to be 50 hour long epics with worlds that felt really large. I appreciate turnbased RPGs more now that I did as a kid, but back in the day I felt like it was more of a chore I did between the fun exploring and story parts.

 

[Cream]

I take it you haven't read a good book, or even seen a good film.

I own over 2,000 video games, have played nearly every one of them (and many others), and I agree with him. There are a handful whose story wasn't bad. That's about the highest compliment I can give.




Moot point. There's no such thing as a game with a great story.

• The Walking Dead
• 999
• VLR
• Danganronpa
• Ace Attorney
• Steins;Gate
• The Last of Us
• Kentucky Route Zero
• Grim Fandango
• Monkey Island
• Heavy Rain (kinda)
• Deadly Premonition
• The World Ends With You
• Chrono Trigger
• Mass Effect
• Portal
• Mother 3
• Alice: Madness Returns
• Catherine
• Persona 4
• Spec Ops: The Line
• Red Dead Redemption
• Deus Ex
• Uncharted
• To The Moon
• Broken Age
• 80 Days
• Silent Hill 2
• Snake Eater
• Dreamfall

 

[Laconic]

• The Walking Dead
• 999
• VLR
• Danganronpa
• Ace Attorney
• Steins;Gate
• The Last of Us
• Kentucky Route Zero
• Grim Fandango
• Monkey Island
• Heavy Rain (kinda)
• Deadly Premonition
• The World Ends With You
• Chrono Trigger
• Mass Effect
• Portal
• Mother 3
• Alice: Madness Returns
• Catherine
• Persona 4
• Spec Ops: The Line
• Red Dead Redemption
• Deus Ex
• Uncharted
• To The Moon
• Broken Age
• 80 Days
• Silent Hill 2
• Snake Eater

I give.

Which one is the one with a good story?

That's some A-Tier Where's Waldo.

 

[Cream]

I give.

Which one is the one with a good story?

That's some A-Tier Where's Waldo.

Okay, I'd like to really examine this thouroughly. Like some legit analyzing.

Please, I would sincerely like to know, what makes a good story for you? What are some examples of good stories in movies or books that you like?

 

[More_Badass]

I give.

Which one is the one with a good story?

That's some A-Tier Where's Waldo.

I know what constitutes good is subjective and all, but it's pretty damn crazy that you don't think one of those have what could be considered a good story

 

[Laconic]

Okay, I'd like to really examine this thouroughly. Like some legit analyzing.

Please, I would sincerely like to know, what makes a good story for you? What are some examples of good stories in movies or books that you like?

I'm rather partial to classical lit.

But to make this more fair, my guilty pleasure of the moment is Joe Abercrombie.

 

[Cream]

I'm rather partial to classical lit.

But to make this more fair, my guilty pleasure of the moment is Joe Abercrombie.

Okay, so, my theory that you have interests has been proven true.

Then If I may be perfectly honest, I think you're one of three things. Purposefully contrarian to be a dick, an extremely, unhealthily picky or biased person, or full of shit.

The idea that you seriously would not enjoy any of the stories told in any of those games is baffling. Completely baffling.

 

[Mentok]

I compare playing video games to playing sports: how entertaining is it for me when I'm playing. There are sports that are far more entertaining to watch than for me to play, so I can see where they have value and are fun. With that said, my favourite sports are always the ones that I LOVE to play. That's why I take good gameplay over story.

 

[Laconic]

Okay, so, my theory that you have interests has been proven true.

Then If I may be perfectly honest, I think you're one of three things. Purposefully contrarian to be a dick, an extremely, unhealthily picky or biased person, or full of shit.

The idea that you seriously would not enjoy any of the stories told in any of those games is baffling. Completely baffling.

You are free to believe whatever you want.

I do not really care.

The fact that you would presume a high horse is hilarious, given your pony mentality.

 

[Skilletor]

I'm rather partial to classical lit.

But to make this more fair, my guilty pleasure of the moment is Joe Abercrombie.

Well, you have to be realistic about these things.

 

[More_Badass]

I'm rather partial to classical lit.

But to make this more fair, my guilty pleasure of the moment is Joe Abercrombie.

I thought Best Served Cold was a great read and a fun revenge story. Personally I'd say that Red Dead Redemption is up there, as a revenge story, and overall a good western plot in general

 

[Cream]

You are free to believe whatever you want.

I do not really care.

The fact that you would presume a high horse is hilarious, given your pony mentality.

I'm sorry, I don't know what you mean by "pony mentality".

 

[Laconic]

Well, you have to be realistic about these things.

True.

Why do I do this?

 

[therapist]

gameplay > story

If I wanted a story, I'd rather read a book or watch a movie. In a game, I want solid mechanics. I rarely care about character motivations, relationships, plot, or anything else. Just give me a solid game - fluidity in a dual stick shooter, good combat/lewt mechanics in an rpg, good shooting mechanics, weapon variation, enemy ai in an FPS, etc.

There are rare exceptions. TLOU being one. But few games can or will reach that level, and I don't expect nor need them to.

yup.
Gameplay > story otherwise youre doing it wrong.
Shitty story can be overcome with good gameplay.
Doesnt go the other way around.

 

[Cream]

True.

Why do I do this?

Have you ever played The Last Express? Or Shadow of the Colossus? Journey? The Stanley Parable? Blood Dragon? Hate Plus? Digital: A Love Story? The Secret World? Deponia? Transistor? Alpha Protocol? Psychonauts? Half Life? The Talos Principle? The Swapper? Hotline Miami?

 

[Skilletor]

Have you ever played The Last Express? Or Shadow of the Colossus? Journey? The Stanley Parable? Blood Dragon? Hate Plus? Digital: A Love Story? The Secret World? Deponia? Transistor? Alpha Protocol? Psychonauts? Half Life? The Talos Principle? The Swapper? Hotline Miami?

Nope. Loved it. Hated it. Nope. Nope. Nope. Nope. Nope. Nope. Transistor's gameplay is awesome. Nope. Nope. Nope. Nope. Nope. Nope.

Don't even want to play the majority of those. Isn't hotline miami a visual novel? Why would I play that if my favorite thing about games is gameplay and the least important thing is the narrative? I realize you're asking Laconic, but I'm answering since I agree with him (minus the condescension towards others who enjoy stories in games, of course ).

 

[More_Badass]

Nope. Loved it. Hated it. Nope. Nope. Nope. Nope. Nope. Nope. Transistor's gameplay is awesome. Nope. Nope. Nope. Nope. Nope. Nope.

Don't even want to play the majority of those. Isn't hotline miami a visual novel? Why would I play that if my favorite thing about games is gameplay and the least important thing is the narrative?

Dude...you value gameplay so much and you haven't played Hotline Miami? Think it's a visual novel?

Seriously, read RockPapeShotgun's impressions, it describes what makes the gameplay so good really well
http://www.rockpapershotgun.com/2012/10/23/hotline-miami-review/

 

[KyleCross]

A game without a story is just several hours of you pressing buttons, ain't worth my time.

 

[Laconic]

I thought Best Served Cold was a great read and a fun revenge story. Personally I'd say that Red Dead Redemption is up there, as a revenge story, and overall a good western plot in general

I enjoyed it too.

But I found it to be weakest of his books, even in light of The Blade Itself's slow build.

Yet it introduced us to Cas, my third favorite Abercrombie character, right behind Sand, and Temple.

Yes, I'm an odd enough duck that my favorite is Temple.

 

[Cream]

Nope. Loved it. Hated it. Nope. Nope. Nope. Nope. Nope. Nope. Transistor's gameplay is awesome. Nope. Nope. Nope. Nope. Nope. Nope.

Don't even want to play the majority of those. Isn't hotline miami a visual novel? Why would I play that if my favorite thing about games is gameplay and the least important thing is the narrative? I realize you're asking Laconic, but I'm answering since I agree with him (minus the condescension towards others who enjoy stories in games, of course ).

lol Hotline Miami is a brutal top-down shooter.

The point I'm trying to make is that there is a lot of games with great stories, regardless of gameplay.

Anyone who makes the statement "There are no good video game stories" must have never ever played The Stanley Parable. ever. There is no game that shows the concept of "Gameplay serving the story" better than that game.

 

[Skilletor]

Dude...you value gameplay so much and you haven't played Hotline Miami? Think it's a visual novel?

Yeah, that's what I thought. Looked it up and see I was wrong. Hard to keep up with so much indie stuff.

Edit: lol, I got it free on PS+ awhile back and never downloaded it. I'll play it a bit before bed.

 

[More_Badass]

Yeah, that's what I thought. Looked it up and see I was wrong. Hard to keep up with so much indie stuff.

Have you played it? If you haven't, try to get around to it as soon as possible. You're really missing out

 

[EventHorizon]

A game without a story is just several hours of you pressing buttons, ain't worth my time.

So Pacman and Tetris weren't good games? So according to you all arcade games ever made suck, and arcades must have been some type of mass hallucination? Yea...right!

How has this discussion gone on for so long? It's painfully obvious that you can have a good game with no story, but it is IMPOSSIBLE to have any game at all without gameplay. Let me repeat that.

It is IMPOSSIBLE to have a game without gameplay. Please. Somebody try to prove me wrong.

 

[Cream]

So Pacman and Tetris weren't good games? So according to you all arcade games ever made suck, and arcades must have been some type of mass hallucination? Yea...right!

How has this discussion has gone on for so long? It's painfully obvious that you can have a good game no story, but it is IMPOSSIBLE to have any game at all without gameplay.

Let me repeat that. It is IMPOSSIBLE to have a game without gameplay. Please. Somebody try to prove me wrong.

They didn't say they weren't good games and they didn't say any arcade games suck. They said they weren't worth their time. And I agree. I don't really care for games with no story. Of course, Pacman and Tetris are amazing games.

But I would personally enjoy Tetris a lot more if it was voice acted and scripted into an epic narrative as you play.

 

[EventHorizon]

They didn't say they weren't good games and they didn't say any arcade games suck. They said they weren't worth their time. And I agree. I don't really care for games with no story.

This isn't about what you care for. This is about what is required to have a video game. You can't have a video game without gameplay. Period. The same is not true with story. Therefore it is a fact that gameplay is more important than story regardless if you like it or not.

 

[More_Badass]

So Pacman and Tetris weren't good games? So according to you all arcade games ever made suck, and arcades must have been some type of mass hallucination? Yea...right!

How has this discussion gone on for so long? It's painfully obvious that you can have a good game with no story, but it is IMPOSSIBLE to have any game at all without gameplay. Let me repeat that.

It is IMPOSSIBLE to have a game without gameplay. Please. Somebody try to prove me wrong.

Depends on how you define "gameplay". Do you consider "walking simulators" like Proteus, Dear Esther, and Gone Home games, or interactive fiction like 80 Days games?

 

[Coolbgdog12]

They didn't say they weren't good games and they didn't say any arcade games suck. They said they weren't worth their time. And I agree. I don't really care for games with no story. Of course, Pacman and Tetris are amazing games.

But I would personally enjoy Tetris a lot more if it was voice acted and scripted into an epic narrative as you play.

The original Resident Evil 1 cast should give Tertris a shot.

 

[Chmpocalypse]

Dark Souls would be an awful game if you took away the lore, artwork, story, music, etc. You know, all the things beyond pressing a button to swing an axe. Games can be a lot more than just a simple, repeating mechanic with a finish line and a score. Dark Souls actually argues for that, not against it.

This thread is a perfect example of why GAF can be so grating to read. Hyperbole everywhere. Generalization after generalization. Absolutely no perspective. There are tons of different styles of video games. You can't just say "story>gameplay" or "gameplay>story" and leave it at that.

This post, so much.

 

[EventHorizon]

Depends on how you define "gameplay". Do you consider "walking simulators" like Proteus, Dear Esther, and Gone Home games, or interactive fiction like 80 Days games?

Gameplay is the ability of the player to control or influence the game action. Or putting it another way, it is the means by which the player is projected into the game. That projection need not be direct like in a FPS, but can be indirect like through controlling an avatar or directing the overall events. Without gameplay all that is possible is passive viewing.

A good test for if gameplay is involved or not is to answer the question: "Does everybody viewing the content see the exact same sequence of events".* If not then the player must have had some mechanism to control the outcome and thus gameplay was involved.

*To handle the truly nit-picky out there, I do not consider pausing or rewinding a movie gameplay because the sequence of events is not altered within the context of the movie. The movie will always playout the same way. You are just choosing which parts to see at a particular time.

 

[deltatheta]

But I would personally enjoy Tetris a lot more if it was voice acted and scripted into an epic narrative as you play.

You joke, but I kind of think of 999 as a version of that for

Spoiler

Sudoku

.

 

[SRTtoZ]

A great story will never be able to compensate for crappy gameplay.

How do you explain Deadly Premonition?

 

[xevis]

But I would personally enjoy Tetris a lot more if it was voice acted and scripted into an epic narrative as you play.

/Thread.
Pack it up guys. This thing is done.

Spoiler

Can I sig quote this? Seriously. lol!

 

[Chindogg]

How do you explain Deadly Premonition?

It's a bad game?

 

[More_Badass]

How do you explain Deadly Premonition?

But Deadly Premonition has awful gameplay and a ridiculous plot that makes no goddamn sense

How the hell are people holding up Deadly Premonition as an example of a good story in games?