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I disagree with "gameplay > story"

I was commenting on the idea that games' interactivity trumps other mediums' ability to tell a story. If anything, interactivity gets in the way of that. At best, you get a Choose Your Own Adventure book, and those are the absolute bottom of the barrel literature.

Interactivity does not mean the player has to control the plot.

It's not better, either. It's simply different. It's a young medium that requires a different approach to story telling, one that incorporates (or accounts for) player agency.
 
All of those, I'm certain, would be held up by some as great examples of games with good stories, or more on topic, games where the story trumps the gameplay. I would absolutely disagree with that.

Those are all gameplay heavy games. How about Journey? Ace Attorney? Danganronpa? Zero Escape? Hotel Dusk? The Walking Dead? Phantasmagoria? Beyond: Two Souls? Asura's Wrath? Dreamfall Chapters?
 
This doesn't ring true to me. Can you cite some examples?

As I see it, a game (as per the Sid Meier definition) is just a series of interesting choices (towards some goal, I guess) while a story is just a setting with characters and events connected by an arc. The story can give context and meaning to those choices (beyond just reach-the-goal) but it does not define them.
I assume you're honing in on the "certain kinds of games do not exist without stories" part right? The easy example is the entire genre of Visual Novels and all their weird cousins/subtypes like "graphic adventures." You could even throw in "QTE games" a la Heavy Rain and Beyond Two Souls.

You can strip the story out of something like Metal Gear Solid or even Halo, and you'd have some fun, compelling mechanics. In that regard, those games can exist without their stories. You can't strip the story out of The Walking Dead or Steins;Gate. The story is as foundational to the game as the gameplay itself. Without the story, you don't have that entire type of game. You're left with...I dunno. A puzzle game? The story is, at least as far as I can tell, what allows for the existence of a visual novel/QTE game/graphic adventure.
 
This doesn't ring true to me. Can you cite some examples?

As I see it, a game (as per the Sid Meier definition) is just a series of interesting choices (towards some goal, I guess) while a story is just a setting with characters and events connected by an arc. The story can give context and meaning to those choices (beyond just reach-the-goal) but it does not define them.



I think this is an interesting comment. Not because I disagree but because so many of the examples we've had of games with "good" stories choose to tell those stories exactly as a movie would; i.e. through non-interactive cut-scenes (TLOU). Which isn't to say that I think you cannot tell interesting stories in this way -- certainly you can -- but that those stories are not well served by being presented in an interactive medium.

I disagree completely. There are things TLOU's story does that could not be done in a movie. You can not get dialogue while YOU are hiding from enemies. You don't get the feeling of playing as Joel and being protected by Ellie with a rifle in a movie. You don't get to
play as Ellie
and experience the narrative shit and different feeling from playing as Joel. You do not get the grit of smashing a guy's head against a wall in a movie.
 
as I argued in the other thread: KOTOR 2 is currently the best story-driven game ever made. I think it's the best marriage, thus far, of the two competing philosophies that typically drive storytelling in games—the first, the emphasis on copying cinema; the second, dialogue trees, choice and consequence, etc. you've got all the dialogue trees, excellent writing, memorable characters etc. coupled with some of the most beautiful scenes ever put in a videogame.

interactivity only means something if those choices have consequences. that's why I don't find games like TLOU particularly compelling examples of storytelling in games—and that's a game that aims for cinematic feeling and hits its mark better than just about every other game on the market
 
as I argued in the other thread: KOTOR 2 is currently the best story-driven game ever made. I think it's the best marriage, thus far, of the two competing philosophies that typically drive storytelling in games—the first, the emphasis on copying cinema; the second, dialogue trees, choice and consequence, etc. you've got all the dialogue trees, excellent writing, memorable characters etc. coupled with some of the most beautiful scenes ever put in a videogame.
KOTOR 1/2 are probably two of the best story-driven games because the games are also two of the greatest games ever made.

Please don't derail this thread because of me calling them great games.
 
I think it depends on the game. But why sacrifice one for the other? Create games with awesome storylines and gameplay. No point in debating whether it's gameplay > story, or story > gameplay. A fun game is a fun game, period.
 
I don't believe that the argument on gameplay vs story holds much value. What it boils down to is the developers' intentions and whether or not what you have in front of you is an enjoyable experience. When you break it down even further, it just becomes semantics.
 
I assume you're honing in on the "certain kinds of games do not exist without stories" part right? The easy example is the entire genre of Visual Novels and all their weird cousins/subtypes like "graphic adventures." You could even throw in "QTE games" a la Heavy Rain and Beyond Two Souls.

Strip away the story from a visual novel and you see it for what it is: tree search; a type of maze solving game.

You begin at the root and are asked to find the leaf node that contains the goal. The goal is not necessarily unique and there may be several interior nodes you need to reach before you can reach the target leaf. Researchers play this game all the time; it's the basis for a large chunk of Computer Science.
 
Strip away the story from a visual novel and you see it for what it is: tree search; a type of maze solving game.

You begin at the root and are asked to find the leaf node that contains the goal. The goal is not necessarily unique and there may be several interior nodes you need to reach before you can reach the target leaf. Researchers play this game all the time; it's the basis for a large chunk of Computer Science.

Ace Attorney would be nothing without its narrative context. Same goes for Danganronpa.
 
Strip away the story from a visual novel and you see it for what it is: tree search; a type of maze solving game.

You begin at the root and are asked to find the leaf node that contains the goal. The goal is not necessarily unique and there may be several interior nodes you need to reach before you can reach the target leaf. Researchers play this game all the time; it's the basis for a large chunk of Computer Science.
I understand what the base gameplay is. And I understand that if you strip the story out, there is a game under it. That's not the point. The point is that as a genre, visual novels do not exist without stories. It's a contradiction in terms. Just like it makes no sense to have a game without gameplay, it doesn't make sense to have a visual novel without a story. The story is as intrinsic to the genre as the gameplay itself.

Again, if you strip the story out of a VN, as you said, you're left with a leaf-node (or in the case of more elaborate games like VLR, you might be left with a puzzle game). So it is no longer a VN. It becomes something different. If you strip the story out of a TPS, RTS or fighter, you still have a TPS, RTS or figther. But you can't do the same to a VN. Thus as I said, "certain kinds of games do not exist without stories." You cannot have a VN without a story. It, by definition, is impossible and makes zero sense.
 
I disagree completely. There are things TLOU's story does that could not be done in a movie. You can not get dialogue while YOU are hiding from enemies. You don't get the feeling of playing as Joel and being protected by Ellie with a rifle in a movie. You don't get to
play as Ellie
and experience the narrative shit and different feeling from playing as Joel. You do not get the grit of smashing a guy's head against a wall in a movie.

The majority of the story in TLOU is told via non-interactive cutscenes. You can certainly do that in film. Other things -- like placing dialogue over the action for dramatic effect -- can also be done in film. "Grit" is certainly something films do well.

Someone that's playing TLOU for the story and not the gameplay can watch entire thing on YouTube -- complete with competent playthroughs of the action bits -- and get a similar, less frustrating (i.e. better) experience than playing through it.

Look I agree that games can give you a feeling of empathy with a character which other mediums do not but I argue that aspect is not necessarily intrinsic to the experience just because the story is presented in the medium of gaming. The mechanics need to engage with the narrative which in modern games they rarely do. Why does nobody care about Mario when he dies? Why does nobody feel bad for Peach? Because that conflict is not reflected in the gameplay. It's even worse when the cutscenes tell one story and the mission objectives and gameplay tell another.
 
there is Gameplay and ... >>>> >>>> >>> there is story.

Good gameplay makes you forget that you are rescuing a princess and jumping on a turtle, even an amazing story with poor gameplay is like nothing. (or a book to read)

If I want to have a good story I'll go by book, surely.
 
I understand what the base gameplay is. And I understand that if you strip the story out, there is a game under it. That's not the point. The point is that as a genre, visual novels do not exist without stories. It's a contradiction in terms. Just like it makes no sense to have a game without gameplay, it doesn't make sense to have a visual novel without a story. The story is as intrinsic to the genre as the gameplay itself.

The claim you were making is that certain kinds of games cannot exist without a story. Plainly they can. Your subsequent rebuttal takes the form of a tautology: you cannot have a story without a story. Duh?
 
The majority of the story in TLOU is told via non-interactive cutscenes. You can certainly do that in film. Other things -- like placing dialogue over the action for dramatic effect -- can also be done in film. "Grit" is certainly something films do well.

Someone that's playing TLOU for the story and not the gameplay can watch entire thing on YouTube -- complete with competent playthroughs of the action bits -- and get a similar, less frustrating (i.e. better) experience than playing through it.

Look I agree that games can give you a feeling of empathy with a character which other mediums do not but I argue that aspect is not necessarily intrinsic to the experience just because the story is presented in the medium of gaming. The mechanics need to engage with the narrative which in modern games they rarely do. Why does nobody care about Mario when he dies? Why does nobody feel bad for Peach? Because that conflict is not reflected in the gameplay. It's even worse when the cutscenes tell one story and the mission objectives and gameplay tell another.
What the fuck am I reading?
 
The majority of the story in TLOU is told via non-interactive cutscenes. You can certainly do that in film. Other things -- like placing dialogue over the action for dramatic effect -- can also be done in film. "Grit" is certainly something films do well.

Someone that's playing TLOU for the story and not the gameplay can watch entire thing on YouTube -- complete with competent playthroughs of the action bits -- and get a similar, less frustrating (i.e. better) experience than playing through it.

Look I agree that games can give you a feeling of empathy with a character which other mediums do not but I argue that aspect is not necessarily intrinsic to the experience just because the story is presented in the medium of gaming. The mechanics need to engage with the narrative which in modern games they rarely do. Why does nobody care about Mario when he dies? Why does nobody feel bad for Peach? Because that conflict is not reflected in the gameplay. It's even worse when the cutscenes tell one story and the mission objectives and gameplay tell another.

Except getting that empathy for the characters IS part of the story. No, you can not just watch a youtube playthough. You are not getting the full effect unless you are playing the game and experience the control for yourself.
 
The majority of the story in TLOU is told via non-interactive cutscenes. You can certainly do that in film. Other things -- like placing dialogue over the action for dramatic effect -- can also be done in film. "Grit" is certainly something films do well.

Someone that's playing TLOU for the story and not the gameplay can watch entire thing on YouTube -- complete with competent playthroughs of the action bits -- and get a similar, less frustrating (i.e. better) experience than playing through it.

Not at all. It's very important that you are Joel, that it's you performing the actions, especially towards the end. If you were just watching a movie, you might not sympathize with him as much, in the game you know more what he's going through and thinking because you are him.
It's your daughter they're trying to kill. It's you pulling the trigger on people begging for their lives. It's easy to see that was a clear conscious decision to not have that part be in a cutscene.
My friend watched all the cutscenes on youtube and enjoyed the story but I think he forever ruined the experience for himself. And I'm talking strictly only about the story when I say that.
 
Except getting that empathy for the characters IS part of the story. No, you can not just watch a youtube playthough. You are not getting the full effect unless you are playing the game and experience the control for yourself.

Sure, I agree games that can do that. I'm saying they often do not. TLOU tells some of its story through the gameplay but the majority of its story is told non-interactively. Are the bits you're not getting in a YT playthough worth the (potentially hours worth of) frustration from repeatedly failing mission objectives or wandering about lost? Maybe? I don't know. It doesn't sound like a bad tradeoff if you're someone that's in it for the story.
 
Not at all. It's very important that you are Joel, that it's you performing the actions, especially towards the end. If you were just watching a movie, you might not sympathize with him as much, in the game you know more what he's going through and thinking because you are him.

I never self-insert so that's never been an issue for me. That's an interesting point though.
 
Sure, I agree games that can do that. I'm saying they often do not. TLOU tells some of its story through the gameplay but the majority of its story is told non-interactively. Are the bits you're not getting in a YT playthough worth the (potentially hours worth of) frustration from repeatedly failing mission objectives or wandering about lost? Maybe? I don't know. It doesn't sound like a bad tradeoff if you're someone that's in it for the story.
Because someone values story, doesn't mean they only value story. Failing and honing your tactics and the tense stealth and bloody combat, exploring and finding little secrets and the optional dialogue, is all part of the experience that adds to the story and atmosphere. You can't get that from just watching
 
Sure, I agree games that can do that. I'm saying they often do not. TLOU tells some of its story through the gameplay but the majority of its story is told non-interactively. Are the bits you're not getting in a YT playthough worth the (potentially hours worth of) frustration from repeatedly failing mission objectives or wandering about lost? Maybe? I don't know. It doesn't sound like a bad tradeoff if you're someone that's in it for the story.
You sound like a 90 year old man that's never played a videogame before while simultaneously sounding like a kid that watches videogames on Letsplays instead of playing them yourself.

It's unbeilivable that anyone can think watching someone play a videogames is the same or better than playing it. I can only imagine someone saying this 10-15 years ago when MGS2/3 came out and getting laughed at. The new generation of gamers :'(
 
I'd like to wholeheartedly disagree with the "game storylines are shit" statement, most of my favorite stories and characters are from video games rather than books, movies or TV shows. I wish more of my friends were gamers to whom I could talk about Steins; Gate or Bioshock with rather than people I would talk with about Lord Of The Rings and Harry Potter.

It really comes down to opinion -some can enjoy a game for the sake of story (like me, for instance), some can not- but the people who say "Oh you actually give a lot of importance to the story in a game? Piss off and read a book, stories in games are totally shit and so if you care about stories, you should not be playing games" as if that is fact are acting like idiots.

This.
 
The claim you were making is that certain kinds of games cannot exist without a story. Plainly they can. Your subsequent rebuttal takes the form of a tautology: you cannot have a story without a story. Duh?
But it cannot exist. You're creating a different game. That's the point. As a genre, Visual Novels require story.

There is no such thing as a Visual Novel without a story. If you take the story out of a Visual Novel, it's no longer a Visual Novel. It's a different kind of game. It's a game, but it's not a visual novel. Again, a TPS with a story can exist without that story. A Visual Novel cannot exist as VNs without a story. Thus, the entire genre of VNs require story. Again, "certain kinds of games require story." A Visual Novel is a kind of game. It requires story. The end.

Here's an equation in case you still don't get it.

Visual Novel - Story = Leaf & Node game.

Leaf & Node game =/= Visual novel.

Ergo, VNs need stories to exist. Their existence is dependent on the story.

Duh?

See, I can be a condescending ass too.
 
(stories in games are, by and large, complete shit though. this is known. i'd say... less than 1% have stories that would pass as competent in other media like books or film)
 
The claim you were making is that certain kinds of games cannot exist without a story. Plainly they can. Your subsequent rebuttal takes the form of a tautology: you cannot have a story without a story. Duh?

Are you saying visual novels are not games? Because if that's the case then you're wrong, and forging your own definition of game to sustain your argument.

If that's not the case, what you said just doesn't make sense. If you take the story out of a vn, it's not that kind of game(visual novel) anymore, it doesn't matter if it's still a game.
 
You sound like a 90 year old man that's never played a videogame before while simultaneously sounding like a kid that watches videogames on Letsplays instead of playing them yourself.

It's unbeilivable that anyone can think watching someone play a videogames is the same or better than playing it. I can only imagine someone saying this 10-15 years ago when MGS2/3 came out and getting laughed at. The new generation of gamers :'(
For me anyway, sometimes I can't find time for a game but I care enough to want to know the story.

I couldn't be arsed enough to go buy and play through Chain of Memories, but I did want to know how the events in Kingdom Hearts were related to each other, so I just youtubed CoM and watched LPs. I don't feel like I missed out on a lot, so I'm glad I'm mostly caught up after (more or less) an afternoon of watching. Same thing for DDD, I eventually got tired of grinding up spirits at the end when I realized that I was playing wrong the entire time and I opted to just watch the rest on youtube.

Sometimes I watch my bro play through Warlords of Draenor content just to get an idea of what's going on, but I'm not interested in resubbing and grinding my toon up to 100 in order to experience that myself. There might be some parts of the story that I didn't catch in time or I might ask him to re-explain to me if he wants, but that's about as far as my interests go for that game now.

For these games, am I required to play through them to get an idea of what's going on? If I have other means of obtaining the story information that I want, and don't care as much about the rest, should I be obligated to play?

And regarding the OP, yes to me "gameplay > story", or at least gameplay that I would want to experience. It's what I prefer to spend my time on these days when I play games.
 
But it cannot exist. You're creating a different game. That's the point.

The game is always tree-search. The term visual novel can be used to define the style and conventions of broadly similar tree-search games but it does not define the game itself. The story, the themes, the context, the presentation style -- this is all window dressing; it is not the game.
 
I never self-insert so that's never been an issue for me. That's an interesting point though.

I wasn't self-inserting in the beginning and didn't intend to, never thought about it, but it just comes naturally after spending the whole game going I need to go here, I need to fight these monsters, I'm punching this guy, damn he killed me, Hey Ellie saved my life, hey what are those assholes doing to my daughter. That doesn't happen to you?

It's just like watching a TV show where they're just characters in the beginning, you don't really care, then you get to know more about them, you go with the story and suspend disbelief, then you're on a youtube video having a meltdown after the red wedding.
 
The game is always tree-search. The term visual novel can be used to define the style and conventions of broadly similar tree-search games but it does not define the game itself. The story, the themes, the context, the presentation style -- this is all window dressing; it is not the game.
That is to take game design and make it so overly reductive as to be totally useless for terminology points. It's a useless way to view games, especially since no one with a hair of sense would do that.
 
Do you think games are incapable of telling good stories? Or is this just a statement of personal preference?

I think he's just saying what he was saying - that if he was in the mood for a story, he'd pick up a book or a watch a movie. If he sits down to game, he, like many others, prefer to twiddle sticks and shoot shoot jump jump. I agree with him.

EDIT - deleted the rest, nevermind, not getting sucked into this again.
 
That is to take game design and make it so overly reductive as to be totally useless for terminology points. It's a useless way to view games, especially since no one with a hair of sense would do that.

It's not about being reductive; it's about recognising things for what they are. To give you an example: your visual novels and the CYOA books that kids were playing in the 70s and 80s are the same game. They differ in presentation style and some mechanical details but they're both instances of the tree-search game. I don't see the problem here. The tree-search game is fun. It's even more fun if we present it in a way that gives extra meaning to all those choices we're making.
 
For me they have to be equal and then everything else is way below them in importance.

While graphics, sound design, and game length are important, I feel like I need the story to suck me in and the gameplay to make the hours go by smoothly.

I found Mordor to be tons of fun, but as soon as I turned it off, I never had the urge to jump back into it. I almost had to force myself to play it because the story and world didn't stick with me. Once I would eventually jump into the game though I had tons of fun running around and messing with the Nemisis system.

On the other side of things, I loved Lost Odyssey's story but after Disc 2, I couldn't imagine playing another 20-40 hours of gameplay that I didn't find entertaining.

That's why games like MGS, Uncharted, and Mass Effect were some of my faves last gen. They were the perfect mix of both.
 
Sure, I agree games that can do that. I'm saying they often do not. TLOU tells some of its story through the gameplay but the majority of its story is told non-interactively. Are the bits you're not getting in a YT playthough worth the (potentially hours worth of) frustration from repeatedly failing mission objectives or wandering about lost? Maybe? I don't know. It doesn't sound like a bad tradeoff if you're someone that's in it for the story.

Killing (or avoiding) clickers as you sneak through an abandoned library, moving ladders from A to B, finding items, exploring, those are all part of the story, and those are all gameplay moments.
 
It's not about being reductive; it's about recognising things for what they are. To give you an example: your visual novels and the CYOA books that kids were playing in the 70s and 80s are the same game. They differ in presentation style and some mechanical details but they're both instances of the tree-search game. I don't see the problem here. The tree-search game is fun. It's even more fun if we present it in a way that gives extra meaning to all those choices we're making.

All you said is correct, but irrelevant.
You specifically asked for a game genre that without a story is not the same, once it's been given to you, you changed the scope to overlook aspects of it.

it doesn't matter if it's a tree-search game, it's more specifically a visual novel.

If you change an fps from first person to third person, it changes genre, even if it's still a shooter, in the same way apples and oranges are different, while both being fruits.
 
Killing (or avoiding) clickers as you sneak through an abandoned library, moving ladders from A to B, finding items, exploring, those are all part of the story, and those are all gameplay moments.

I feel that it may be a bit of a stretch to consider those things part of the game's "story".

Do they add to the overall experience? Absolutely.

But if we consider these elements part of the game's story, then we might as well claim that every single thing anybody ever does, in any game ever developed, is part of that game's story as well, which I think would cheapen the whole concept of narrative.
 
Books (novels, comics, etc.) are just flat out better for story. Without solid gameplay I wouldn't even consider playing any game. Time is limited and I would rather read if I feel like a good story.
 
I want my games with 100% AI and emergent gameplay. No story. A fully realized virtual reality. In each and every video game setting. Storytelling in videogames always has this feeling of being out place, like it's forced onto this world that is only connected to it in certain places. Or the opposite, the game is all story and there is no gameworld.

Stories to me aren't for videogames, and I think as videogames become more sophisticated, storytelling will be less of a necessity (I realize the crazy awesome feelings some gaffers get out of a game that is like 110% story and I tip my hat to you sires), but if the videogame systems themselves weren't so lame, people most of the time would just deviate from the story and do what they want. Like real life. Sure I'll watch an amazing story for a while, but only for a while. I'm really here to do my own thing. But usually, currently, if you do this in a videogame you're met with a lot of boring nothing. Or a bunch of paper-thin illusions. Bring on the future

EDIT: After giving it some more thought, videogames are much larger than one certain type. This is just what I like. There will always be multiple types. Certain genres might become entirely separate forms of entertainment in itself. There will always be interactive stories and then there will be simulated worlds. I see them splitting apart and refining themselves as videogames keep evolving
 
And what I'm saying is that many other people do gain something from those very small actions, whether it's an emotional impact, a feeling of exhiliration, of pleasure, of fear, or whatever. Forcing the player to push a door to a room where they hear chains dragging against the floor in a horror game is scarier than taking away control from the player to have the character open that door through a cutscene. This is basic game design.

You're being intentionally obtuse at this point, or refuse to gain perspective that many others don't share the mindset you do. All I can say is that people do feel that these subtle, small actions are emotionally impactful even if you don't, and leave it at that. There is proof everywhere of such, whether it's through developer interviews or through the players who responded positively to them. You can keep repeating "It's just like pressing play/pause during a movie" all you want, but the fact is others don't see it that way. And they'll continue to not feel that way. So games will continue to implement those small actions.

They should rename NeoGAF to "Well, that's your opinion, GAF."

Obviously, I feel this way. Obviously, you feel the way you do. We are on a forum, discussing these things; what's the point of even participating in this topic if you are just going to pull the "Well, differences of opinions and that's that."

On topic, and be free to ignore this post if it offends your opinion, I feel my play button analogy fits your description just fine. Imagine watching a movie and the main character hears scraping from the other side of a door. The main character grabs the nob and suddenly the movie pauses. A big sign appears that says, "Press play to open door."

That's, essentially, what you just described. exactly. There is no difference. It's even worse when, as has been the case in many narrative heavy games, you open the door to a cutscene. You aren't resolving yourself to open the door, your character and the game have already determined that for you. This offers absolutely nothing beyond what a movie can in terms of how the gameplay can impact my understanding of the narrative.

And, again, that said, there are examples of games that implement gameplay mechanics as a method of telling a narrative. Those offer something beyond movies and books. I also understand the idea of taking gameplay breaks inbetween your narrative bits, because games are engaging and fun, more fun than movies a lot of the time, but that's because I enjoy playing video games.

What I remain unconvinced about is this idea that moving my character some how attaches me more emotionally to my character than reading a book or watching a movie about the same story, or why it would. How pulling ladders down or pressing X to open a door or "pay respects" somehow makes me understand or feel narrative better than alternate mediums. Or, Jesus, that video games have some sort of inherent edge in the narrative department, as many are arguing here.

There is nothing wrong with liking games or liking games with stories, but if it's the stories you crave, and they matter more to you than gameplay does, then you are spending your time in the wrong hobby. It's like if someone wanted the best stories, but refused to check anywhere but a fanfiction site. Yeah, you'll find some good stuff, but it's relatively awful compared to what you could be reading.
 
All you said is correct, but irrelevant.
You specifically asked for a game genre that without a story is not the same, once it's been given to you, you changed the scope to overlook aspects of it.

it doesn't matter if it's a tree-search game, it's more specifically a visual novel.

If you change an fps from first person to third person, it changes genre, even if it's still a shooter, in the same way apples and oranges are different, while both being fruits.
The issue is that I have a genre and now he's trying to break it down into mechanical parts. The reality is, whether he likes it or not, Visua Novels as a genre are completely and utterly dependent on their story to be classified as that genre. That makes the story, at the least, equally important as the gameplay in creating that unique category of game.
There is nothing wrong with liking games or liking games with stories, but if it's the stories you crave, and they matter more to you than gameplay does, then you are spending your time in the wrong hobby. It's like if someone wanted the best stories, but refused to check anywhere but a fanfiction site. Yeah, you'll find some good stuff, but it's relatively awful compared to what you could be reading.
"There is nothing wrong with liking movies or liking movies with stories, but if it's the stories you crave, and they matter more to you than the audiovisuals do, then you are spending your time in the wrong hobby." - Some cranky old novelist, circa 1895.

Man, how I love people telling me I'm in the wrong hobby. How positively, deliciously and scrumptiously condescending.
 
(stories in games are, by and large, complete shit though. this is known. i'd say... less than 1% have stories that would pass as competent in other media like books or film)

Considering how trash most movies and book stories are, the majority of video game stories would fit right in.
 
Considering how trash most movies and book stories are, the majority of video game stories would fit right in.

I agree, the majority of books and films are bad. But what passes for a competent, let alone good, video game story is just so much lower than what passes for a competent film/book. and it goes without saying that the best video games aren't anywhere near as good as the best film/books at storytelling—though that I chalk up not to anything inherent in the medium of videogames and much more to the fact that its so young. It's really still in its infancy.
 
I think he's just saying what he was saying - that if he was in the mood for a story, he'd pick up a book or a watch a movie. If he sits down to game, he, like many others, prefer to twiddle sticks and shoot shoot jump jump. I agree with him.

EDIT - deleted the rest, nevermind, not getting sucked into this again.

I bow out too. Let them have the thread. It doesn't make them right.

Gameplay is definitional to something being a game. It is innate to the very concept. That fact alone would be enough for any rational person to cede its being more important to a game than "story" is.

Clearly, Sophistry >>> Logic, in this thread, though. Well not really. But it'd make a nice story. ;)
 
EVERYONE needs to read Funyarinpa's post once more and realise that with some higher IQs and better reading comprehension, this thread shouldn't have reached 30 odd pages; all we're doing is going around in big, annoying circles.

You either fall into one camp or the other.

Personally, my interpretation is to take "important" as meaning 'integral to the definition of', so even if I did unequivocally value/enjoy stories over gameplay in my games, I'd still never deem them more important. They are simply not necessary.

So figure out your semantics and where you sit before reiterating the same point for the twentieth time.

Some people take "important" as "what defines it as a game/ what is critical to all games".

Some people interpret "important" as"what they care most about/ enjoy the most in a game/ what they look for in a game".

The first interpretation can be discussed on objective grounds: Gameplay is what separates games from other mediums, so gameplay defines if something is a game or not.

The second interpretation is a matter of opinion. (To the people saying "Games have no good stories waaa": Here's an interesting philosophical concept for you) One can enjoy the stories more in a game or the gameplay itself. Nobody should judge others based on that in my opinion.

I think the people who interpret the word "important" in the first way try to state that as fact, which pisses off the people who understood the word as the other possible meaning. They state that it is a matter of opinion and look like a band of rabid idiots to those who understood the word "important" in its first meaning.; which, in turn, pisses those people off.

TL;DR: Because of the different interpretations of the word "important", people are pissing each other off to no end due to a simple misunderstanding.
 
The issue is that I have a genre and now he's trying to break it down into mechanical parts. The reality is, whether he likes it or not, Visua Novels as a genre are completely and utterly dependent on their story to be classified as that genre. That makes the story, at the least, equally important as the gameplay in creating that unique category of game.

"There is nothing wrong with liking movies or liking movies with stories, but if it's the stories you crave, and they matter more to you than the audiovisuals do, then you are spending your time in the wrong hobby." - Some cranky old novelist, circa 1895.

Dude, did you even read the rest of my post? You've starwmanned a much larger post by taking a point out of context. Movies had to differentiate themselves from books in the method they tell their stories. Also, the quality in stories for early movies, like "train travels into camera," were not offering the kind of narrative heavy hitters you could find in literature at the time.

Your post comes across as misinformed.

Man, how I love people telling me I'm in the wrong hobby. How positively, deliciously and scrumptiously condescending.

This made me cringe so hard, I don't think I'll ever recover. Not only am I not being condescending, you are being intellectually dishonest.
 
I agree, the majority of books and films are bad. But what passes for a competent, let alone good, video game story is just so much lower than what passes for a competent film/book. and it goes without saying that the best video games aren't anywhere near as good as the best film/books at storytelling—though that I chalk up not to anything inherent in the medium of videogames and much more to the fact that its so young. It's really still in its infancy.
Idk, I've played games that have more engaging and involving narratives than some of the stuff I've seen on Netflix and Syfy, or even some theaters releases
 
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