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[not psycho]

Classic Lara Croft is still one of the best game characters of all time, man or woman, and a character that I have a great time identifying as. Her passions, resources, and abilities are ones that are fun to (pretend to) have. It's unfortunate that a lot of people can only see her as an object.

I don't think it is specifically lacking vulnerability that makes her so great, it's that she is the kind of person who sets up a huge obstacle course to practice on. That's just awesome, and shows how much she enjoys what she does. With that as a foundation there is still room for fear or vulnerability, if it fits, because the core is a character doing what they want, on their own. Nobody is protecting them, nobody is forcing them to do it.

I also think the graphics need to be considered when discussing sexualization. Classic Lara's design actually works pretty well in the games due to the blocky graphics. Advertising is a different story.

 

[PaulloDEC]

...

I'm not sure what you're trying to suggest or highlight in quoting me there?

 

[atr0cious]

NuRaider is a bad character in a mediocre game.Just cliches on top of cliches for plot points.And why does she need her father to know how to be bad ass?

 

[Sanctuary]

I'm not sure what you're trying to suggest or highlight in quoting me there?

To illustrate that it doesn't make much sense to talk about obstacles a person overcomes and ignore (ridiculous) pain tolerance when in these games they are inexorably linked.

 

[Tinfoilhatsron]

Preach it to the freakin' heavens and back, OP. Oh, Reboot!Lara Croft! You are the broken pedestal of a gift that just always keeps on giving. It's been years, and I'm still not over the loss of one of the few larger than life female power fantasy characters we had in gaming. Buh-bye Lara, enjoy Crystal Dynamics' Island of Horrors. See ya, Samus, you were Other M'd. Now two of the most iconic women in gaming are 'vulnerable', what a unique concept, that's never been done with a female character before. All we have left in the female power fantasy department is Bayonetta, and as much as I adore her, she's definitely still got her issues.

I fully acknowledge that Tomb Raider has always had a really dodgy relationship with women/sexualisation/violence. (There is an interesting essay from Cara Ellison about the original TR and the reboot from when the controversial reboot trailer came out). At the end of it all, what really disturbs me about the rebooted series is that it's become so incredibly insidious about how Lara is treated. But, hey, she's practically dressed now, all is saved!

I think one of the things I perpetually find so disturbing about the treatment of Reboot!Lara, is how it's all sunshine and roses on the surface, with more insidious steps made with the character the whole way through. Lara's gone from an adventurer that was disowned by her parents because they disagreed with her becoming an archaeologist... to being rebooted into yet another female character whose origins involve living up to her father's legacy. She's gone from smug, confident and cocky, to someone who is nondescript and uncertain. (There is nothing wrong with the latter, and it can be genuinely compelling with development. Pity Reboot!Lara is lacking in the development department.) Old School!Lara was a snarky, confident anti-hero. Reboot!Lara is a non-offensive, cookie-cutter straight forward hero with very little in the way of personality - CD very briefly explores her anti-hero element in Rise. Lara's gone from being an aggressive, proactive in your face duel-wielding pistol gun-show to a more passive heroine who has been billed as a survivor with her bow and arrow. I still think it's interesting that a bow is the weapon CD stuck Lara with, in both marketing and narrative, as opposed to a shotgun or a pistol. We were so lacking in archer women archetypes, we absolutely needed another one! Meanwhile, how 'bout that female lead with a pistol or a shotgun? Anyone? Bueller? Bueller?

Speaking of bows, can we talk about that time the Reboot!Lara brought a bow to gun fight?

What? This is the weirdest arguement ever. What female character is also a primary archer in gaming shown in marketing? I can hardly think of any. TR was following the trend set by Farcry, Crysis, etc., where everyone has a bow. And bow to a gun fight is just gameplay > realistic situations which in turn is bad writing. The bow is also a pretty big mechanic in the game, meele, sneak, long range...

 

[Strangelove77]

Ms. Pac-man is a better and more positive female representation in games than 2013 Lara. Shes got legs for days and uses them to lure dumbass ghosts so she can eat them and doesn't give a fuck. She fucks shit up and looks good doing it. She's a badass.
She also doesn't have any lame and stupid friends to deal with. Ain't nobody got time for that mess.

In all seriousness TR 2013 meant well, but was written really badly. It's embarrassing how bad the characters were written. Including Lara. It was a case where no story at all would have been the better option.

 

[PinballRJ]

More like a bipolar psychopath.

I relate to her more than most video game characters

 

[FallingEdge]

I miss the old Lara, the PSX Lara
The polygonal Lara, the old school Lara

 

[SolidSnakex]

I miss the old Lara, the PSX Lara
The polygonal Lara, the old school Lara

 

[patapuf]

I dislike the current characterisation of Lara quite a bit but that's mostly because the writing of the game is really, really poor.

A more "vulnerable" Lara that grows into her own or a flawed Lara that isn't quite as confident as her old iteration could work and be good for represantation not just as female character but for variety of action game heroes in general.

But when her attitude ingame doesn't match the feats she accomplishes (nevermind what she does during gameplay) and almost none of the characters she interacts with have any depth, it just doesn't work.

If the main enemies in your game have 0 nuance and your character development is confined to like, 3 or 4 cutscenes and you throw out what little you developped for every game you might as well bring old Lara back. That kind of character is way easier to execute in games where you are mowing down waves of enemies and she is more fun to have around to boot.

 

[Banzai]

The old Lara does

Remind me, when does old Lara use her "feminine charms" to get ahead? I genuinely don't remember. I mean there was that one scene right before the credits in 2 but that was just fourth wall breaking fanservice.

I'm not gonna deny old Lara was designed to be attractive to male players, but when does that come up in the old games?

 

[PaulloDEC]

To illustrate that it doesn't make much sense to talk about obstacles a person overcomes and ignore (ridiculous) pain tolerance when in these games they are inexorably linked.

Well if you're going to write them off in Tomb Raider, you'd better write them off in every other game ever made too.

Characters in games are constantly shot, stabbed, punched, kicked and dropped from great heights. Suspension of disbelief is required, but that doesn't invalidate what the things they achieve in the rest of the game.

 

[Sanctuary]

Well if you're going to write them off in Tomb Raider, you'd better write them off in every other game ever made too.

Characters in games are constantly shot, stabbed, punched, kicked and dropped from great heights. Suspension of disbelief is required, but that doesn't invalidate what the things they achieve in the rest of the game.

There are very few video game characters that I've ever thought of as anything other than "video game characters", no matter how much focus their narrative gets. As long as they are shrugging off grevious wounds that would fell a dozen men, or taking out legions of enemies by just swinging their arms a few times; nope, not going to make me relate in any way. But I don't really play games to relate with the character the majority of the time. Even in "roleplaying" games, it's really hard to actually become one with what's on the screen, and I never actually become so immersed that I suddenly stop realizing that I'm still playing a game.

 

[RagnarokX]

Usually the defense brought up when it's pointed out how the gameplay and characterization are terrible is that it's an origin story and their trying to be more realistic, but there are many problems with this. Within the game itself the problem is that Lara goes from 0 to Rambo instantly which throws the idea of her being a novice completely out the window, and attempts at realism just make what happens in this game MORE ridiculous than if they didn't call attention to it.

The origin/reboot excuse fails in the face of the Core Tomb Raider games. Here is how we were introduced to Lara for the first time:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XHJuFhcRICE

To summarize: we are shown a magazine showing Lara on the cover saying that she caught bigfoot. She makes a witty remark rebuffing the advances of a man that hits on her. Natla offers her money and Lara tells her she only hunts for sport. Natla describes how dangerous and unexplored the adventure will be Lara smiles. Lara treks to Peru and opens the door to the caves. Her sherpa is attacked and she tries to save him but is unable to.

In this small cutscene we know all we really need to know about Lara. She's a famous, badass, confident adventurer who goes on adventures for the fun of it.

Core went on to flesh her out a bit. She got the adventure bug after her plane crashed in the Himalayas where she survived for several days before she was rescued. Her rich parents didn't approve of her lifestyle and sent her on adventure with famed archeologist Werner Von Croy to get it out of her system and eventually disowned her. Here's Lara on her first real adventure as cocky as ever: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hTS1XvqRrCA

When Crystal Dynamics took over, for whatever reason, they decided Lara couldn't just WANT to be an adventurer. She needed something forcing her to do all this stuff. They changed her backstory so that her father was a famous adventurer, too, so she's just following in daddy's footsteps. And her reason for going on these adventures is because her mommy disappeared in the plane crash in the Himalayas and she wants to find her.

The 2013 reboot is even more inexplicable. They decided Lara's origin now is that she got stuck on rape and murder island with no experience yet already possessing superhuman climbing, jumping, and shooting powers. And somehow after witnessing several friends die horrific deaths, coming close to being raped and murdered herself, and suffering agonizing injuries we are to believe that she would want to do all of this again of her own volition. That's supposed to be more realistic?

 

[Xater]

My main problem would be that it's another story of a female character becoming strong because of trauma. It's a trope that has become very old.

 

[Flipyap]

Remind me, when does old Lara use her "feminine charms" to get ahead? I genuinely don't remember. I mean there was that one scene right before the credits in 2 but that was just fourth wall breaking fanservice.

I'm not gonna deny old Lara was designed to be attractive to male players, but when does that come up in the old games?

He's talking about a scene from Tomb Raider Legend where she wore a party dress to a party (gasp). This is the part where she rips the dress to put on her trademark thigh holsters: https://youtu.be/zBpc3SrL73w?t=20m10s
Except she never uses her "feminine charms" to get anywhere and the conversations she has with male characters are strictly business and cartoon action hero threats.

 

[Angelus Errare]

I find it impossible that she is a step back for female representation given the current state of female representation. You could argue she does nothing to improve it, but a detriment to it? Nah

The problem is it's a bunch of dudes writing what they think a strong woman is without much if any input from actual women.

 

[patapuf]

My main problem would be that it's another story of a female character becoming strong because of trauma. It's a trope that has become very old.

I wonder why people take so much issue with this trope. Not that it's a super great storytelling device but it's not one that is used more egregiously used with female characters than male ones imo.

A story starting in an idillic location and then everything goes to shit, is RPG 101. A main character having "a dark past" that justifies his current attitude is dime a dozen. The stoic soldier that "has seen some shit" is like at least half of all protagonists in military shooters.

Unless the tone is super light, like in uncharted (and even there) trauma is one of the most common motivations for heroes.

Look at Kratos, Geralt, Joel, Booker de witt, batman, most RPG protagonists ect.

It makes sense that stories that are written for 30-50 hours of gameplay or that follow multiple sequels and are full of violence feature a high % of characters that overcome trauma.

I find it impossible that she is a step back for female representation given the current state of female representation. You could argue she does nothing to improve it, but a detriment to it? Nah

The problem is it's a bunch of dudes writing what they think a strong woman is without much if any input from actual women.

The lead writer is a woman. I doubt lack of female input is the problem. The story is just bad, and probably not a high priority during development.

 

[Banzai]

He's talking about a scene from Tomb Raider Legend where she wore a party dress to a party (gasp). This is the part where she rips the dress to put on her trademark thigh holsters: https://youtu.be/zBpc3SrL73w?t=20m10s
Except she never uses her "feminine charms" to get anywhere and the conversations she has with male characters are strictly business and cartoon action hero threats.

That's what I thought. I really think all they had to do to reboot Lara was give her a new look that was less supermodel-like. Her old backstory and personality were fine. More than fine even, I enjoyed old Lara as a character. Not so much with the new one.

 

[Rotch Crot]

Im laughing at the gasping, and exhaustion points.

Its about humanizing tne character.
It worked wonders for 007. Pierce brosnan never broke a sweat while daniel craig is repeatedly a physical mess once the crazy shit is over.

Same with jason bourne.

 

[Angelus Errare]

The lead writer is a woman. I doubt lack of female input is the problem. The story is just bad, an probably not a high priority during development.

Eh even so it's not like say the book industry where editor control is minimal. It wouldn't be shocking if What she wrote and the final product are two completely different things. Videogame writing is lorded over by suits and focus groups. It's like a wannabe movie industry

 

[Tunahead]

I mainly just dislike Nu-Lara because she's such a nothing character. If you haven't played TR2013, you could easily come away from these threads thinking that Nu-Lara is always either traumatized or psychotic. But she isn't. It's just that when she isn't either of those things, she isn't anything else, either. She doesn't have likes or dislikes or character traits or goals beyond "don't fail this torture porn quicktime event". She's just stoically resolved. Even the crazy mass murder bits don't really manage to squeeze any emotion out of her. She shouts "I'm going to kill you all!" but not like she means it. There's no anger or glee behind those words. She just sounds resigned. "Oh great, living people. More work." If Nu-Lara even has any facial expressions beyond "anguished" and "beep boop I'm a robot", I sure as fuck don't remember them.

EDIT: Reading this post back, I now realize I've lost control of my life. I dislike Nu-Lara and I'm posting about it on the Internet. Jesus Christ. I may as well start blogging about my least favorite pieces of cardboard while I'm at it.

 

[patapuf]

Eh even so it's not like say the book industry where editor control is minimal. It wouldn't be shocking if What she wrote and the final product are two completely different things. Videogame writing is lorded over by suits and focus groups. It's like a wannabe movie industry

Yeah, i know a lot of videogame writing gets hacked to bits.

But after a string of ME, TR 2013 and RotR giving the benefit of the doubt is a bit harder.

 

[Sanctuary]

She shouts "I'm going to kill you all!" but not like she means it. There's no anger or glee behind those words. She just sounds resigned. "Oh great, living people. More work." If Nu-Lara even has any facial expressions beyond "anguished" and "beep boop I'm a robot", I sure as fuck don't remember them.

 

[Shiggy]

I think you have a point with it being annoying and sometimes cringeworthy, as well as not fitting in terms of previous titles.

But just because we both don't like it, it's not automatically sexism when a girl is shown crying or weak. That's where feminism of the 21st century failed; they only want to show hero-like characters with no distinct personality, otherwise it's sexist. That's harming a great cause with stupid suggestions.

 

[kyser73]

Rhianna Pratchett can't write for shit and only gets work because of her name.

The whole 'protect her' thing was pretty shit to TBH, but at core reboot Lara is Nathan Drake with boobs & a vagina. She kicks ass, cares for her friends so long as they don't get in the way of the ass-kicking or imperialist cultural vandalism and she will kill to achieve said vandalism.

There is the potential of a great character and genuinely original storytelling with Lara, but that story won't sell 7mn units.

 

[atr0cious]

I think you have a point with it being annoying and sometimes cringeworthy, as well as not fitting in terms of previous titles.

But just because we both don't like it, it's not automatically sexism when a girl is shown crying or weak. That's where feminism of the 21st century failed; they only want to show hero-like characters with no distinct personality, otherwise it's sexist. That's harming a great cause with stupid suggestions.

At least read the rest of the fucking post.

That is to say there’s nothing wrong with being weak or vulnerable. It's entirely okay and fine to have weak and vulnerable characters in entertainment media. I just feel like it’s much more common when it comes to female characters and taking an iconic, empowered "badass" characterization and turn it into this trope is somewhat disappointing (especially when media outlets hail it as "progressive and feminist").

Fuck out of here with this lame ass "analysis" of feminisim.

There is the potential of a great character and genuinely original storytelling with Lara, but that story won't sell 7mn units.

This is a horse shit conclusion when they won't attempt it. All these excuses about female lead properties not selling in all forms of media, but they're handicapped out the gate.

 

[Bastables]

He's talking about a scene from Tomb Raider Legend where she wore a party dress to a party (gasp). This is the part where she rips the dress to put on her trademark thigh holsters: https://youtu.be/zBpc3SrL73w?t=20m10s
Except she never uses her "feminine charms" to get anywhere and the conversations she has with male characters are strictly business and cartoon action hero threats.

Tellingly when CD was in charge of the game, the developer that have us the 2013 reboot.

 

[starchild excalibur]

I didn't play the newest TR, but I remember immediately noting that the one before it consisted of Lara falling all the time.

> You jump onto a floor, the floor crumbles.

> You jump onto a scaffolding, the scaffolding crumbles.

> You jump onto a ledge, the ledge crumbles.

I know this is a trope that happens from time to time in adventure games, but it was absolutely insane how much that chick fell in the game. And yeah, her character was strange. She was weak and vulnerable in her narration, but you had her slaying motherfuckers left and right.

I don't think her character is necessarily an improvement (again, based off not the newest one but the one before it), but I think she has the potential to become more self-assured and independent. I just think they probably went in too far of an extreme in trying to show that this world was new to her originally.

 

[kyser73]

At least read the rest of the fucking post.


Fuck out of here with this lame ass "analysis" of feminisim.

This is a horse shit conclusion when they won't attempt it. All these excuses about female lead properties not selling in all forms of media, but they're handicapped out the gate.

Nothing to do with a female lead and everything to do with the story that could be told with her. The same could Be said with a male lead too - instead of generic white vandal fucking everything up you could do sonething different, and the cypher that is Lara could be better used the carry a different kind of story.

 

[CadetMahoney]

She looks scary as fuck even without the gun. Not surprised those guys shat their pants.

 

[Shiggy]

At least read the rest of the fucking post.


Fuck out of here with this lame ass "analysis" of feminisim.

I did read the entire post. And for some reason, whenever there's a critical comment of everything being sexist or racist these days, the reply is often rude. I'm pretty sure you can do better "fuck out of here", or is that also how you interact with people when you are not on the internet?

Changing character traits can be for a multitude of reasons. The authors may have thought it's more interesting, more easy to sympathize with the character. From my personal view, they failed. It's also right to criticism them for this failure, it's also ok to criticism them for changing the personality of Lara Croft. But that doesn't automatically make it sexist.

But with how your reply is worded, it's rather evident that you're not interested in thinking outside of your narrow-minded view, where no criticism of "extremist" feminism is allowed.

 

[Flipyap]

That's what I thought. I really think all they had to do to reboot Lara was give her a new look that was less supermodel-like. Her old backstory and personality were fine. More than fine even, I enjoyed old Lara as a character. Not so much with the new one.

By the end of their original run, Crystal Dynamics' Lara started looking more like a superhero than a supermodel (... a distinction that became depressingly hard to make without qualifiers due to the way popculture works).

I wish they could have continued in that direction, because she was just a costume change away from looking like one of the toughest female action heroes around and was the only one of her kind in video games. There has to be room for characters like that.
Video games lost something important when they decided to turn an iconic athletic character into an "everywoman" whose only distinguishing feature is looking filthy.

 

[A-V-B]

By the end of their original run, Crystal Dynamics' Lara started looking more like a superhero than a supermodel (... a distinction that became depressingly hard to make without qualifiers due to the way popculture works).


I wish they could have continued in that direction, because she was just a costume change away from looking like one of the toughest female action heroes around and was the only one of her kind in video games. There has to be room for characters like that.
Video games lost something important when they decided to turn an iconic athletic character into an "everywoman" whose only distinguishing feature is looking filthy.

Lara Croft at that point was very distinctive, for sure. Awesome action-adventure heroine, worthy of carrying the torch of one of the most iconic characters in the medium. Shame they got rid of her.

 

[Tunahead]

This is a horse shit conclusion when they won't attempt it. All these excuses about female lead properties not selling in all forms of media, but they're handicapped out the gate.

It's not that compelling female leads won't sell. It's that you can't mirthlessly analyze compelling female leads at a marketing department and then shit out a new one. And if you can't do that, then how are you meant to know before releasing a female lead to the public and gauging the response? That would be a risk. And you don't have to take risks, because you can mirthlessly analyze highly successful mass market garbage to make more highly successful mass market garbage.

 

[CadetMahoney]

Speaking of Classic Lara I saw this somewhere, but it's happening in the UK in October:

http://www.playexpomanchester.com/20th-anniversary-of-tomb-raider-celebration/

Off topic but someone can make a separate thread if they want.

 

[RedSwirl]

I have a lot of issues with Nu-Tomb Raider, but with Lara and the story specifically I just think it's unnecessarily dark, even aside from the typically bad video game writing.

Past Tomb Raider games, Uncharted, and Prince of Persia are comfortable T-rated games while reboot TR had to go for a hard M largely from what I can see to get on the survival game and "gritty" train. Hell, even the Nolan Batman movies that started the "gritty reboot" trend are PG-13. I think all the death and kill animations were too gratuitous. It's not the fact that they're violent that put me off, but just how gratuitous they were. Seeing Lara make those lengthy and gruesome takedown animations so soon after freaking out about shooting one dude just broke her character..

Not even mentioning how new Tomb Raider doesn't really play like a survival game, I just didn't see the need for the "survivor" angle. In both gameplay and theme they took too much emphasis off the raiding of tombs. The idea of this origin story in itself works, but maybe it should have been more about Lara willing to take that step into putting herself into danger to get out there and investigate tombs and save the world.

But mostly though I have a problem with how generically serious Lara is all the time in the new games. I'm not asking her to be Nathan Drake, but you've got to have at least a bit of levity in even the darkest stories. By the time of Rise I wanted to see just a bit of the former, confident Lara. She marvels a bit upon seeing a new tomb or a treasure, but that's about it.

 

[Micael]

I definitely agree with the OP on the new Lara being a step back, the character model is better definitely, but the actual characterization of Lara is absurd, old Lara was definitely not realistic and it was very much little more than a female action hero, but it committed to it, she was a badass basically 24/7.

If you are going to portray a character realistically that is fine, it is ofc a different take on Lara but that doesn't necessarily make it wrong, what does make it wrong is to try and have your character be vulnerable human being Lara when it is convenient for a part of the story, and then have Lara the badass godess action hero the next, it is like an expanded version of Nathan Drake cutscene kryptonite where nothing hurts him during gameplay (and sometimes also in cutscenes) but when a cutscene comes along even a pea shooter is an issue (which I'm sure also an issue in the long history of old tomb raider).
Except new tomb raider doesn't even have the common decency to keep it so compartmentalized, it just flip flops whenever it is convenient.
There is also the all story being trope central, where anyone that has seen enough media content would have known more or less what each character was before they even talked, a problem which was only alleviated (but still present) with rise of the tomb raider aka I have daddy issues I need to solve.

 

[RedSwirl]

By the way, one of the models they used to inform reboot Lara's character and situation was Rambo in First Blood Part One. Just some food for thought.

 

[Bastables]

I definitely agree with the OP on the new Lara being a step back, the character model is better definitely, but the actual characterization of Lara is absurd, old Lara was definitely not realistic and it was very much little more than a female action hero, but it committed to it, she was a badass basically 24/7.

If you are going to portray a character realistically that is fine, it is ofc a different take on Lara but that doesn't necessarily make it wrong, what does make it wrong is to try and have your character be vulnerable human being Lara when it is convenient for a part of the story, and then have Lara the badass godess action hero the next, it is like an expanded version of Nathan Drake cutscene kryptonite where nothing hurts him during gameplay (and sometimes also in cutscenes) but when a cutscene comes along even a pea shooter is an issue (which I'm sure also an issue in the long history of old tomb raider).
Except new tomb raider doesn't even have the common decency to keep it so compartmentalized, it just flip flops whenever it is convenient.
There is also the all story being trope central, where anyone that has seen enough media content would have known more or less what each character was before they even talked, a problem which was only alleviated (but still present) with rise of the tomb raider aka I have daddy issues I need to solve.

It struck me that with nu lara CD is always interested in reminding us that Croft has the sighs of a woman. With all the pejorative judgments of a mad Tom Baker that tends to imply.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_EfW9znJYjw
As opposed to Core Croft who was well 'ard.

 

[Haganeren]

Actually, i love when a character i weak and have to overcome danger despite of that, it's a trope in anime that i always loved. (Shinji from Evangelion, Subaru from Re:Zero more recently, Raiden in MGS 2 for others reason) and i love to play mage character in W RPG because of that too. (Well, when you have other people to save you)

I totally agree with what you say, but instead of not having a strong female character, i would love to see a weak male character...

... In a AAA environment, NOW that would be a strange thing to see !

 

[chromatic9]

Perhaps in the third game she's more hard boiled

I thought in Rise of she was less of the timid crying Lara but not completely out of it. Makes sense since it just after the origin reboot. Expecting it to be straight up 90s Lara right after seems odd

Rhianna Pratchett can't write for shit and only gets work because of her name.

The whole 'protect her' thing was pretty shit to TBH, but at core reboot Lara is Nathan Drake with boobs & a vagina. She kicks ass, cares for her friends so long as they don't get in the way of the ass-kicking or imperialist cultural vandalism and she will kill to achieve said vandalism.

There is the potential of a great character and genuinely original storytelling with Lara, but that story won't sell 7mn units.

Reboot sold 8.5 million.

 

[Trup1aya]

I really don't see moaning, grunting, or sealing warmth as a sign of weakness-

These are things that normal people, male or female, do when performing excruciating physical tasks in extreme conditions. The fact that males in video games are often depicted handling these tasks with ease doesn't reflect poorly on Lara's characterization, but on the characterization of those males.

Maybe I'd say the overuse of those audio cues was annoying. I'd also say that it wierd and unfortunate that male NPCs didn't exhibit the same reactions to the environment. But I don't think those things reflect negatively in Lara's characterization.

I think the writing was bad, and as such, did nothing for her characterization. That said, even with the lack of characterization she was certainly better than most other depictions of females in games.

 

[Bastables]

I really don't see moaning, grunting, or sealing warmth as a sign of weakness-

These are things that normal people, male or female, do when performing excruciating physical tasks in extreme conditions. The fact that males in video games are often depicted handling these tasks with ease doesn't reflect poorly on Lara's characterization, but on the characterization of those males.

I do not think it's any thing to do with normal reactions, under the relatively minor conditions of army basic training when trainees male and female are almost dropping from exhaustion from physical and mental exertion the majority do not vocalise much at all. They tend to shut down in attempts to outlast their trials.

CD Crofts moaning and grunting are for the benefit of the player, not from a reflection of a realistic character on the "edge of survival".

People who've "seen the elephant" tend to default to laconic or angry reactions in utterly inappropriate interactions which is probably a result of various levels of PTSD.

 

[A.D. Skinner]

Are we really talking this much because of panting and heavy breathing through extreme conditions and scary near death parts? You know, id probably react exactly the same way, as the man I am so, this is one silly point to make.

 

[SPCTRE]

I think where I disagree here is I didn't really perceive her character in Rise to be like that at all. Hell, if anything it was the opposite - she was almost too generic of an action hero, a superhero character that just kind of wiped out the opposition and everyone looked to for help despite a lack of a logical reason to do so.

There's a lot of flaws that can be pointed out about her characterization in Rise, but frail and vulnerable aren't really ones I'd throw in there.

first post got it right again

 

[faridmon]

I really have to disagree with this. The old Lara Croft was a sex symbol first and everything else was a secondary. The new Lara Croft is more humane, stronger female, with clear goal and challenges.

The fact that this thread is made saddens me, considering we all strive for better representation of female character is gaming. The fact that we ignore how sleazy the old design of her is very disappointing.

 

[petran79]

I definitely agree with the OP on the new Lara being a step back, the character model is better definitely, but the actual characterization of Lara is absurd, old Lara was definitely not realistic and it was very much little more than a female action hero, but it committed to it, she was a badass basically 24/7.

If you are going to portray a character realistically that is fine, it is of a different take on Lara but that doesn't necessarily make it wrong, what does make it wrong is to try and have your character be vulnerable human being Lara when it is convenient for a part of the story, and then have Lara the badass godess action hero the next, it is like an expanded version of Nathan Drake cutscene kryptonite where nothing hurts him during gameplay (and sometimes also in cutscenes) but when a cutscene comes along even a pea shooter is an issue (which I'm sure also an issue in the long history of old tomb raider).
Except new tomb raider doesn't even have the common decency to keep it so compartmentalized, it just flip flops whenever it is convenient.
There is also the all story being trope central, where anyone that has seen enough media content would have known more or less what each character was before they even talked, a problem which was only alleviated (but still present) with rise of the tomb raider aka I have daddy issues I need to solve.

Which is why older mature games like the original FMV Phantasmagoria and SNES Clock Tower have more believable female leads, despite the supernatural settings and the lack of military training or superpowers. The character in the first game was even raped in one scene, midway through the game. They show courage only near the end when things are becoming desparate and death looms around the corner.

 

[Lime]

Many people are saying that being vulnerable is part of doing the things she's doing, but it's funny how this is exclusive to a female action hero. Male action heroes, even the ones in Tomb Raider itself, do not display the same type of vulnerability and exhaustion that the rebooted Lara does. The Mountain Peak introduction has so many instances of her showing emotional and physical fragility and meekness that would be considered weird if a male action hero would display the same - christ, just look at Jonah walking around like it's no big deal while Lara is clutching and grabbing herself. Being fragile and vulnerable is something much more common to female characters, so it's sad that Lara falls into the same eye-rolling characterization.

I totally agree with what you say, but instead of not having a strong female character, i would love to see a weak male character...

... In a AAA environment, NOW that would be a strange thing to see !

See, this I would like.

first post got it right again

I don't see how it got it right, since it denies Lara Croft being vulnerable and fragile, which not only many people agree with in this thread, but is also evidenced in the footage I provided in the reply to ShockingAlberto.

I really have to disagree with this. The old Lara Croft was a sex symbol first and everything else was a secondary. The new Lara Croft is more humane, stronger female, with clear goal and challenges.

The fact that this thread is made saddens me, considering we all strive for better representation of female character is gaming. The fact that we ignore how sleazy the old design of her is very disappointing.

Everything you say is addressed in my OP. I am not ignoring the 'sleazy design', I'm directly addressing it.

 

[Auto-Reply]

The real crime was the change in gamedesign anyway, that they changed her character just made her boring, that alone wouldn't be that big of a deal. The conversion into a tps qte fest killed the franchise for me, even if they bring the good old superhero Lara back, she can't salvage that.
The entire discussion about what Lara is and what she should be always felt disconeccted from the actual games as Tomb Raider was never really defined by who she was but where she was running around and what she was doing there.