Probably not, but my point stands that Japanese stories are more likely to be misrepresented to Western audience due to a lot of bad translations.
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I felt that Japanese devs are better at battle systems while...
- Thread starter Dark_castle
- Start date
Probably not, but my point stands that Japanese stories are more likely to be misrepresented to Western audience due to a lot of bad translations.
King Gilga
Member
Oh yes it fucking does.
AntiFacebook
Member
Yeah,but on the other hand,not too many western games have writing in the same level as PS:T either.
Stardust_Comet
Neo Member
Are you saying that as someone from outside of Japan who has only heard the language spoken in games/anime, or as someone who has been learning the language and has spoken with enough Japanese speakers, or as a native speaker? (asking a genuine question here so that I can see your view point here)
Pinko Marx
Banned
True. But there are still many great written games from the west that put the Japanese to shame. Not to say that there aren't any great Japanese stories. Final Fantasy Tactics is one of my all time favorites.
Nikodemos
Member
Western tactical games (and here I include East European stuff as well) have notably more advanced mechanics compared to regular Japanese fare, and had them for a good while (see Ultima VII, over 20 years old, or the aforementioned Jagged Alliance 2, a 15-year-old game).
The Albatross
Member
Yeah, you're right, only shooters. I can't believe I never realized that till you enlightened me.
Wiktor
Member
Sure, but the actual storytelling method, now that's very common in western games, while very rare in Japanese ones.
I don't know man. Most of the comparisons I'm seeing are to TODAY's western RPGs and other big western games. I still haven't gone back and played the CRPG classics but I hear a lot of people singing the praises of stories in games like Baldur's Gate 2 or Planescape Torment. That goes for both writing and combat systems, which I think just have some philosophical differences between the two cultures. Even then, combat in many of today's WRPGs (at least the ones on consoles) is pretty different from what they used to be like.
Maybe you could argue WRPGs are out of their golden age a little bit and are only just starting to remember it with projects like Divinity: Original Sin and Project Eternity.
Maybe you could argue WRPGs are out of their golden age a little bit and are only just starting to remember it with projects like Divinity: Original Sin and Project Eternity.
Mauricio_Magus
Banned
Check out RPGs done by Atlus(EO/SMT series), Falcom(Ys and TitS), and Gust(Atelier and Ar Tonelico series) if you're looking for a good one.
Funny that you mention Radiant Historia, I'm crazy about JRPGs but I haven't played it yet, it's been in my backlog for a while.
I'm pretty sure many would argue the same about JRPG's.
There's very good stuff coming out on PC in the past two, three years. Just like with JRPG's, you have to dig a bit to find the good stuff, what's mainstream isn't what's best.
Dark_castle
Junior Member
I've heard some good things about Atelier series, but never tried one before. And I'm crazy about JRPG. Which one should I give it a shot to see if the series is for me? I did some basic research and all I see are cute girls doing cute things.
Myths
Member
Bold bit is my only response to the OP for either region, especially the ridiculous idea some may hold as one region being inherently better too.
Sheriff_Battlesnake
Banned
Why aren't we talking about Metal Gear Solid?! Top notch writing, graphics, and gameplay. You can call it convoluted but it's certainly an epic.
Mauricio_Magus
Banned
It's a really good series that doesn't get enough credit, I'm going to recommend you the newest one, Atelier Escha & Logy: Alchemists of the Dusk Sky, for the PS3(it's getting a re-release on Vita but I wouldn't expect to see that game over here till late 2015 at best).
In case you want a quick reason to why they are appealing, the Atelier games are really lighthearted and have a lot of charm, you live the life of an Alchemist for several years in which you have several missions to complete, you have to gather items, battle monster(there's optional boss fights that are crazy and really test your skills), create items via alchemy, and more. The catch is, everything you do consumes time so you have to manage it and be careful.
cm osi
Member
i would accept that if the west makes simple and fluid gameplay, but instead they just make it -automatic-
dragonzdogma
Member
I don't know OP
I agree with the battle system but the writing?
I've yet to play games with a better storyline then Chrono trigger,Chrono cross,Metal gear (Dat detail in weapons,yum)
Also don't forget some Japanese games ended up with horrible translations,
and actors. I recently played the correct translated version of Castlevania SOTN (dracula X), and boy did it make a difference
I agree with the battle system but the writing?
I've yet to play games with a better storyline then Chrono trigger,Chrono cross,Metal gear (Dat detail in weapons,yum)
Also don't forget some Japanese games ended up with horrible translations,
and actors. I recently played the correct translated version of Castlevania SOTN (dracula X), and boy did it make a difference
Aaronrules380
Member
I find it ridiculous that people suggest that writing is better in either region. First off, using common tropes a lot does not equate to bad writing quality, and if it did that'd be equally damning for both sides. There's nothing inherently bad about any of the "anime" tropes like teenage protagonists and nothing inherently better about western tropes, it's really all a matter of preference. I find it funny that people argue that they can't relate to young protagonists, but suggest that they can relate to the hyper-macho "badass" western action hero protagonists. If anything, I'd argue that every adult has been a teenager and gone through issues like that (even if a lot of them seem silly to us now that we've matured), whereas pretty much nobody has been the super awesome badass western hero. And honestly, tropes are ultimately just a means of conveying the themes, and it's how well you convey them that matter. Tales of games are all super anime and have superficially similar stories, but pretty much all of them deal with a very different set of themes (Tales of the abyss was fighting fate, Symphonia dealt heavily with racism and cultural conflict, Xillia was a coming of age story about learning to think for yourself and forge your own path, etc.). That's not to say the tales of stories are good (they generally aren't well written), just that a lot of the similarities are surface level.
Astral/H3X
Member
So... what are western systems? I typically find them to be overly simplified to the point where I can't actually play the game more than an hour without saying fuck it and going to something like Dark Souls or Monster Hunter.
If "involved" and "actually taking some effort" is "incredibly dated", then fuck new shit. The point of a game is to master how it works so that you can exploit it to do better, crazier shit. Not to casually press a few buttons until the game just gives you exploding heads.
Dark_castle
Junior Member
Thanks, I'll probably grab a copy later and see how it plays.
Agreed.
And D3 has the worst story of any videogame I've played in recent memory. It's terrible!
The Blacksmith needs to win some kind of award for having hundreds of lines of dialog and never once saying anything interesting. The whole sub-plot with having to kill his wife is laughably bad.
I dislike EO, Ys, I've played SMT4 and the others from hell to back (wasn't impressed by SMT4.), I don't like the Atelier series.
I'm looking forward to PQ but honestly my interest in RPGs have diminished in anything new. I find myself returning to older titles I haven't finished/replayed. like now, I'm returning to finish up the Dragon Age series and I have Vagrant Story to finish too. Then there's me restarting my FFVIII run, waiting patiently for FFXIV to finally have PayPal options....
What's coming out in the next year, FFXV? No hope for that. KH3 is a while's away. I already played Type-0 and I thought it was trash. P5 is out of the way, Xenoblade X is a while too....just nothing really.
staticneuron
Member
Games like portal and half life are less about telling an actual story and more about a fully realized world you are immersed in. There is a difference.
PdotMichael
Banned
Well Demon's Souls/Dark Souls and Dragon's Dog are like the only Japanese RPGs with top notch battle systems.
Yakuza's one is broken since the first part and most of the JRPGs have the same basic combat system since the good old NES days.
Yakuza's one is broken since the first part and most of the JRPGs have the same basic combat system since the good old NES days.
Pretty much. The vast majority of games are just poorly written in general. Sturgeon's Law, and all that.
I will say that both sides have a good number of exceptions - it's just a matter of knowing where to look.
Relativ9
Member
I feel like Japanese developers are usually better at writing the grand overarching themes of a story, the big events and the final outcomes. But when it comes to writing believable or just plain inoffensive characters they fail massively compared to western developers. Look at the greater story of pretty much any of the Final Fantasy games, they are all (imo) superior to something like Skyrim or Mass Effect, but the character writing is cringe-worthy in comparison. Or compare Metal Gear Solid to Uncharted.
There's plenty of really hardcore western games, it's more a matter of genres and platform - and not just looking at EA, activison and Ubisoft. (though even they publish "hardcore" games from time to time).
You can't really think there aren't any western games that "take effort to master".
I mean, we can start with eve online, dwarf fortress or Flight simulator Falcon 4.0 if "time to master" is what matters.
SixMachine
Member
I do like a lot of older rpgs like Planescape Torment and Fallout 1 and 2 for their writing. Combat wise japanese offerings are the best in the business for me. Though one thing that really irks me about western games is how come so many of them screw up the final section so bad. I think it's bullshit when they don't want some half decent encounter at the end because a boss is too gamey, really brings down the last section of a game when it's unsatisfactory to complete. Not saying all of them are like this (though I need time to think about a good boss in a western game, I'm sure I can think of some okay ones though not great). Though in a more narrative game like Planescape Torment it can get away with it but for other games where you are shooting people in the face 90% of time it's inexcusable to have a bad final setpiece.
Ding ding ding. I've been playing games in Japanese now for the past 4-5 years and the writing is certainly not as bad as it seems to be oftentimes in the translations. Entire jokes for example in a more comedic setting are completely lost or just become awkward in English.
I personally prefer both Japanese writing and Japanese gameplay, but I can see why people like Western games and I have no problem with that. I just wish people wouldn't hate on others for having differing tastes.
Wiktor
Member
Oh please...play more than console titles. The most complex western games make the most complex japanese ones look like they were designed for 8 years old kids.
If Civ is really the only turn based strategy game you can name I'm not sure you are qualified to even make a comparison
SixMachine
Member
Besides Starcraft I can't think anything really that supports your statement. Starcraft is a beast in it's own right, since highly competitive players have high apm while requiring really good decision making. Arena shooters like Quake are really fast paced and skillful, too bad there aren't many being made anymore. But they definitely don't trivialize mastering something like a fighting game. What games do you have in mind?
The final encounter in Planescape is one of that games high points. Same with fallout 1.
The thing is two of those, the best examples of easy to learn hard to master games are not console games. Well, not the good versions anyway. I don't mean anything by this, just Starcraft 64 is too hard to control to be a masterful game and Quake 1/2/3 just doesn't work as well with a gamepad due to the speed.
SixMachine
Member
I agree but I honestly felt those games were more than about combat as I mentioned and it works for them. I talked most of my way through those games when possible (which is a lot). It's games like Mass Effect 3 and even Halo 4 where you are constantly fighting and shit sucks at the end.
How about pretty much any grand strategy game like crusader kings or hearts of iron or the 4x games?
Wiktor
Member
Fighting games are extremely simple to learn, just hard to master.
And there's no genre more complex than full blown study simulators, genre which simply doesn't exist on Japanese side. When you have 600+ pages manuals with actual cruicial information to use when gaming it's simply completely different world.
SixMachine
Member
Names please? I'm genuinely interested, are you talking about stuff like Dwarf Fortress? If you are talking about actual simulators, they aren't my cup of tea tbh.
A lot of genres are easy to conceptualize, but it's mastering them that takes the most effort. Even strategy games, learning how a unit works is like learning how a move works in a fighting game, and you have to know how it interacts with a lot of situation. A lot of competitive games actually have a sizeable knowledge wall if you want to actually be good. That's the beauty of it, games like Quake is shoot the other guy, but once you see how fast they move and cover weapon spawns and positions, you can see how complex it can get.
I'm not one to want to cause a fuss, but honestly the story and especially the ending of the last of us isn't very good. I realise I'm going against a huge amount of people here but I've played it and seen the ending and I thought it was a relatively lackluster experience the whole way through. Perhaps it's because it's not my kind of game anymore, but I just didn't get it at all.
Bioware as well have very awful writing the majority of the time.
Mihael Mello Keehl
Banned
So basically you said japanese do gameplay better than western devs?
Funyarinpa
Member
A lot of my favorite games and game stories are from Japan, especially 999, Virtue's Last Reward and Danganronpa.
To be able to claim that Japanese games have, on average, a worse narrative than Western narratives, you first need to be aware that Japan has a full game genre which relies entirely on narrative: visual novels. And they tell incredible stories.
To be able to claim that Japanese games have, on average, a worse narrative than Western narratives, you first need to be aware that Japan has a full game genre which relies entirely on narrative: visual novels. And they tell incredible stories.
I definitely prefer battle systems in the japanese games that I play, but I've yet to encounter much great writing in western games. And the problem is a lot of them that try for great stories just have mediocre combat at best so I find myself concentrating more on the story and realizing how lacking that is too.
The premise of these games (they are stories about liar/deduction/logic games) is sound, and makes for interesting murder-mystery type of stuff, but the execution is riddled with cheesy anime nonsense (the gameplay also tends to do a bad job of interfacing with the way these stories unfold).
To be fair, I recognize that some people will like that kind of thing, but just keep in mind that people also judge a game story's merit by how it's told, not just what the story is.
Try Hotel Dusk and Last Window.
Great writing, awesome (non-anime) aesthetics and some of the best NPC characterization I've ever seen in videogames.
Yet I'm sure you'll excuse SH it's shitty combat