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I hate this trend of jrpgs being dumb easy

Souls games, Bloodborn, Eldin Ring, NiOh1+2, FFOSOP

They are all JRPGs
This again. No they aren't. They are RPGs and they are made in Japan, but JRPG is the name of a genre not a term to describe where a game was made.

A JRPG is a type of game reminiscent to early RPGs that were made popular by Japanese games such as Dragon Quest and Final Fantasy.
 
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SF Kosmo

...please disperse...
There's a difference between difficulty and padding the game by forcing the player to grind. Old school RPGs like Phantasy Star and Dragon Quest weren't *hard*, because there was never any depth to the combat in the first place, it was just "are you a high enough level to beat this boss or not."

In today's age I am not sure that kind of "difficulty" works. Forcing players to run around in circles on the overworld.to level up until they can get through whatever difficulty wall. That isn't challenge, it's boring.

The happy medium is something like SMT5, where leveling up is relatively fast and painless, but there's a much larger emphasis on HOW you build your party. Simply leveling up the same guys won't do it, you need to figure out what will work against a boss and then get them. That's strategic and fun. But Dragon Quest isn't that deep. Most combat is just mashing attack until the thing dies.
 

Metnut

Member
I thought DQ11 with “harder monsters” turned on was on par with most of the older games difficulty wise. A lot of the bosses were tough and I need to get lucky and/or grind to win. If you play DQ11 vanilla then it’s incredibly easy.
 

Furball

Member
There's a difference between difficulty and padding the game by forcing the player to grind. Old school RPGs like Phantasy Star and Dragon Quest weren't *hard*, because there was never any depth to the combat in the first place, it was just "are you a high enough level to beat this boss or not."

In today's age I am not sure that kind of "difficulty" works. Forcing players to run around in circles on the overworld.to level up until they can get through whatever difficulty wall. That isn't challenge, it's boring.

The happy medium is something like SMT5, where leveling up is relatively fast and painless, but there's a much larger emphasis on HOW you build your party. Simply leveling up the same guys won't do it, you need to figure out what will work against a boss and then get them. That's strategic and fun. But Dragon Quest isn't that deep. Most combat is just mashing attack until the thing dies.
level up in SMT 5 is painful slow without DLC not sure what you talking about and the game also has level scale penalty .
 
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greyshark

Member
Any other newer rpg recommendations, ideally in game pass?

I’ll second recommending Octopath Traveler. I thought the mechanics were great and difficulty was well balanced. Typically if you’re having trouble with a boss the solution is not more grinding but more efficient usage of the tools you have available to you.

The Superboss at the end was a great payoff and a true challenge for completionists.
 

wvnative

Member
Like a dragon, FF7 Remake and Octopath traveler all greatly ramp up difficulty in the later half. Mashing attack definitely won't win
 

TintoConCasera

Gold Member
I was playing Resonance of Fate some time ago, and it seemed quite hard to me.

Don't know if it keeps the challenge for the whole game, tho.
 

Furball

Member
I was playing Resonance of Fate some time ago, and it seemed quite hard to me.

Don't know if it keeps the challenge for the whole game, tho.

It did get little easier but it still harder than most JRPG around . But it is Tri Ace game it alway has higher difficult option and customization alway make thing easier in lower difficult
 

Otre

Member
Dont grind. If you were not grinding, quit videogames and go win some wars. Ukraine might need you.
 
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killatopak

Gold Member
I seriously doubt you used every draconian quest in DQ11S and found it easy. Even if it was, it’s more than just press A to win. I know because I personally did all draconian and it’s not press A to win.
 

Amiga

Member
Not looking for soulsbornes

You said you wanted a challenging JRPG. If you mean the old turn based games then they are not difficult, just demand more time to grind levels.

If you mean tactical challenge then Valkyria Chronicles.

This again. No they aren't. They are RPGs and they are made in Japan, but JRPG is the name of a genre not a term to describe where a game was made.

A JRPG is a type of game reminiscent to early RPGs that were made popular by Japanese games such as Dragon Quest and Final Fantasy.

JRPG: Japanese Role Playing game. battle, loot, level up, tactically customize build.

Souls/NiOh are the evolution of the JRPG. the old fashioned turn based games are just retro now.
 
JRPG: Japanese Role Playing game. battle, loot, level up, tactically customize build.

Souls/NiOh are the evolution of the JRPG. the old fashioned turn based games are just retro now.
My wife and I are going out for dinner tonight. She says she wants American food, so we are going to get sushi. It will be made in America and it's food, therefore it's American food.
 
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TintoConCasera

Gold Member
Souls/NiOh are the evolution of the JRPG. the old fashioned turn based games are just retro now.
What? No, they are third person action games that happen to have some RPG mechanics thrown in there.

I think they are a mix of the evolution of old action games like Rune or Blade/Severance, while also being influenced by Kings Field.

I don't see them as the new JRPG in any way. They aren't even JRPGs at all, and the experience they give to the player has nothing to do with what games like Dragon Quest or SMT can offer.


Also, turn-based is retro? Dude, you might not like it or something, but without turn-based we couldn't have modern gems like SMT V or even most modern CRPGs.
 
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Kokoloko85

Member
You said you wanted a challenging JRPG. If you mean the old turn based games then they are not difficult, just demand more time to grind levels.

If you mean tactical challenge then Valkyria Chronicles.



JRPG: Japanese Role Playing game. battle, loot, level up, tactically customize build.

Souls/NiOh are the evolution of the JRPG. the old fashioned turn based games are just retro now.

Nah, I wouldnt class Souls games as classic JRPG’s
 

Lethal01

Member
Agreed, there's tons of exceptions but too many games just make getting a challenge out of them ridiculously difficult and often require you to totally avoid sidecontent to do so. You shouldn't have to force yourself to not play the game just because you want a challenge.

To my surprise FF7 Remake ended up being a really good challenge, because your strength is controlled by weapon upgrades you can simply choose not to increase your weapons damage and HP.

OP sounds kinds stupid NGL.

Ni no Kuni is for literal children. DQ XI has some insane difficulty spikes, ESPECIALLY the final boss.

One challenge every hour is stupid.
 

TintoConCasera

Gold Member
They are modern JRPG's
No Way Mac GIF by It's Always Sunny in Philadelphia
 

Kokoloko85

Member
They are modern JRPG's

So what about modern JRPG’s like Dragon Quest, Octopath Traveler, SMT 5, Persona 5 etc? Are they classed as modern JRPG’s. They play like JRPG’s from SNES,PS1/PS2 just better graphics and all turn based combat.

Souls games to me are Souls game. RPG’s. You can call it a JRPG if you want. It doesnt really matter I guess, but they play, feel and look completely different to other JRPG’s. Or even action JRPG’s like Mana. Or a strategy JRPG like Fire Emblem

Sekiro is a Souls game = Action game with RPG mechanics, not a JRPG at all
 
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Fictive

Member
My wife and I are going out for dinner tonight. She says she wants American food, so we are going to get sushi. It will be made in America and it's food, therefore it's American food.
So define the genre, this is going to be good. This age old argument trying to shoehorn only certain games to something where it explicitly says “Japanese” in the name gets tiresome.
 

Fuz

Gold Member
Octopath Traveler was quite hard.
grindy ≠ hard

My wife and I are going out for dinner tonight. She says she wants American food, so we are going to get sushi. It will be made in America and it's food, therefore it's American food.
I doubt that american sushi is the same as japanese sushi, though.

I know that Italian sushi isn't.
This is not allegory, I'm really just talking about food.
 
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So define the genre, this is going to be good. This age old argument trying to shoehorn only certain games to something where it explicitly says “Japanese” in the name gets tiresome.
If Skyrim had been made in Japan, it would be the same type of game as Dragon Quest or Pokémon? But, since it was made in the west it's not?

Games are definitely getting harder to put into specific genre boxes, as games often bleed into multiple ones. But some games are obvious, Dragon Quest, Child of Light, Octopath Traveler, etc are part of the same genre of games and Sekiro or Dragon Age are not. Where these games were made is irrelevant.

What if a game is made by two studios in multiple countries? Do we have to create a new genre for that?
 
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KXVXII9X

Member
1st game I ever sold (and only game I've sold so far) was ni no kuni 2. So easy, I pressed a and win. Great art style, but what's the point? My friends said I was wrong, but months later it gets a difficulty mode, I must not have been that crazy

Now I'm trying dragon quest 11 s, lovely game. Looks pretty, nice music, nice characters so far, basic story (so far), but I don't see how I spend 100 hours smashing a to win. Really a shame. Hate this new trend. And this is with draconian quests on.

I looked online and the sentiment is that even with all draconian quests on, and skipping monsters... It's still too easy. Really a shame

If only more games were like xeno (I'm biased lol), but yeah

Is Arise a bit of a challenge? Or also a cake walk?

How about persona 5 royal?

I'm debating trying those

Not all games need to be elder ring, but at least get my health under 50% once in a while, killing 1 character here and there would be nice too lol
Just okay Shin Megami Tensei V. It was made for people like you. I thought I really liked the series, but playing the newest one tested every bit of patience I had. Common enemies can just one shot your protagonist which results in a ge over screen making you go back to your last save point, which are spread out. What's worse is finally whittling down a boss and just about fully recovered from a massive blow only for them to target my main character with a one shot. Just grind and grind and grind and grind and... I think I would rather stick to an easier JRPG I can relax to.

I would also recommend Neo TWEWY, Triangle Strategy, Fire Emblem Three Houses, Yakuza Like a Dragon (Not exactly hard, but very involved and more engaging).
 

Fictive

Member
If Skyrim had been made in Japan, it would be the same type of game as Dragon Quest or Pokémon? But, since it was made in the west it's not?

Games are definitely getting harder to put into specific genre boxes, as games often bleed into multiple ones. But some games are obvious, Dragon Quest, Child of Light, Octopath Traveler, etc are part of the same genre of games and Sekiro or Dragon Age are not. Where these games were made is irrelevant.

What if a game is made by two studios in multiple countries? Do we have to create a new genre for that?
What I’m saying is to even use “Japanese” in the name seems disingenuous and also inaccurate in the first place. As you said, the place where it’s made shouldn’t imply much more than the studio or origin. Although, people really want to pinpoint or attribute certain game philosophies, development, and mechanics/systems to a region even though it could be argued what THOSE were inspired by too.

On the other hand, firing off PokéMon, FF1-10, Tales, Atelier, DQ, and Persona games still doesn’t work out quite as accurate because certain entries in those franchises have changed radically from their predecessors. Then you get into including only this or that entry, gets muddy especially if someone on the outside is just trying to understand where things like categorically. Compare this to music genres, sometimes prefaced by a decade like “90s” or “00s” to limit what they mean.

Just describe how the game is by its mechanics and systems. If you went to highlight a series of games or entries that shared such things more commonly and closely compared to later, modern entries then you could say SNES, Gen 4/5 or 90s RPGs.

I’m not on one side or the other, but both sides seem to make disingenuous arguments and cherry-pick what they want or don’t want to include for strange reasons.
 
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What I’m saying is to even use “Japanese” in the name seems disingenuous and also inaccurate in the first place.
I agree 100%, it's a terrible name for a genre, but it's what stuck. I guess it could be Japanese-styled RPG, but getting everyone to buy into a new name at this point is a near-impossible task.
 

NahaNago

Member
I can't enjoy the rest of the game, like world, music, characters, story, if the most important part of a game (for me at least), gameplay, is simply non existent. The rest is cherry on top, but gameplay is king.
The problem though is that gameplay is very simplistic for most jrpgs so gameplay in my opinion was never really king for those games.
 

Amiga

Member
standard JRPG's have evolved to real time.
What? No, they are third person action games that happen to have some RPG mechanics thrown in there.

I think they are a mix of the evolution of old action games like Rune or Blade/Severance, while also being influenced by Kings Field.

I don't see them as the new JRPG in any way. They aren't even JRPGs at all, and the experience they give to the player has nothing to do with what games like Dragon Quest or SMT can offer.


Also, turn-based is retro? Dude, you might not like it or something, but without turn-based we couldn't have modern gems like SMT V or even most modern CRPGs.

If we call Xenogears, Tales, Star Ocean and Y's JRPGs, then we should call SoulsOh games JRPGs. SoulsOh games deserve the name more because customized builds and strategy matter more than in a game like Xenogears.

Encounter turn based combat should go away and be relegated to niche. The only viable turn based RPG's should be actual tactical like Valkyria Chronicles.

For me the best application of an engaging turn based game is Transistor. Turn based JRPG developers should learn from it.



Nah, I wouldnt class Souls games as classic JRPG’s
"classic JRPG’s" is a good description. let's use that to describe the old turn based games.


My wife and I are going out for dinner tonight. She says she wants American food, so we are going to get sushi. It will be made in America and it's food, therefore it's American food.
Most of the sushi in America is American food that few Japanese would eat, the hint is in the name "California Roll", the traditional Japanese Sushi doesn't sell well in American restaurants(like traditional JRPG's).
 

jorgejjvr

Member
You said you wanted a challenging JRPG. If you mean the old turn based games then they are not difficult, just demand more time to grind levels.

If you mean tactical challenge then Valkyria Chronicles.



JRPG: Japanese Role Playing game. battle, loot, level up, tactically customize build.

Souls/NiOh are the evolution of the JRPG. the old fashioned turn based games are just retro now.
No, I want a balanced rpg. In my firstly post I mentioned not all games need to be elder ring. Balanced, fair does not equal torture. I'm talking about the EXTREME rpgs where it was made for babies, it's so easy you press one button and win, you don't need more than than 1 brain cell. Yeah, a LITTLEFIELD decent push back would be nice. But no, not looking for a soulsborne. Like I said, some get or right like xenoblade, but not sure which other game does
 

jorgejjvr

Member
The problem though is that gameplay is very simplistic for most jrpgs so gameplay in my opinion was never really king for those games.
Gameplay is simplistic in the bravely default games, but the bosses still give me a run for my money

A balanced and fair rpg would be nice. Doesn't need to be either extreme, not dumb easy, or unfairly torturous. Just nice in the middle works, balanced
 

Fictive

Member
I agree 100%, it's a terrible name for a genre, but it's what stuck. I guess it could be Japanese-styled RPG, but getting everyone to buy into a new name at this point is a near-impossible task.
Also true. Basically everyone in this thread knows what it means, or at least most of us in here do when we hear or see the term, and see a game. But because devs have more powerful consoles with much more capability, of course there is change and evolution - to the point it splits old and new alike.

Sometimes, you do wonder why they can’t have separate teams willing to put out 2D games. You’d think it’d take a lot less time and budget compared to a modern 3D game.

The one thing I do like about the genre designation you’re using (not the J specifically, but the attempt to designate certain games as a category) is that anyone can have an attempt at trying to make or develop one. Don’t have to be in or from Japan to try. Play enough of them, and you will understand the common features and shared aspects. :messenger_smiling_with_eyes:
 
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RoboFu

One of the green rats
Play bravely xenoblade chronicles 2, default 2, or octopath traveler .

Anything with a stagger system… there are many.
 

NahaNago

Member
Gameplay is simplistic in the bravely default games, but the bosses still give me a run for my money

A balanced and fair rpg would be nice. Doesn't need to be either extreme, not dumb easy, or unfairly torturous. Just nice in the middle works, balanced
I vaguely remember playing bravely default so I can't comment on the game much.
 
Most of the sushi in America is American food that few Japanese would eat, the hint is in the name "California Roll", the traditional Japanese Sushi doesn't sell well in American restaurants(like traditional JRPG's).
When someone says they're in the mood for American food, you know they don't mean a freaking California roll. Just like when someone is asking for JRPG suggestions, they aren't looking for Dark Souls.
 

SF Kosmo

...please disperse...
level up in SMT 5 is painful slow without DLC not sure what you talking about and the game also has level scale penalty .
There are items and idols all around that can just insta-level your guys. And the level scaling makes it easy to get lower level guys up to where you need them. Compared to old school RPGs it's pretty generous.

Yes, it gets harder in higher levels, and if you're trying to take on the worst of the optional super bosses like Shiva or Demi-Fiend then yes, it's a brutal grind fest. But as far as making your way through the main game, they do an excellent job of giving you what you need as long as you play it smart.
 
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