The fact that these games stay the "same" actually makes them standout from the crowd. Look how videogames are today. Everything looks the same. You get long cutscenes, you get set-pieces, you get voice acting all over the place, heavily story driven and cinematic games, etc.
A traditional Metroid game, like Prime for instance, stands out from the crowd as something unique. With a unique atmosphere, a unique way to tell it's story and a unique game design/gameplay. Why change the formula to make Metroid (or any other Nintendo game) the same as all the casual AAA games in the market?
I just fail to see why someone wants to have dialog in every game? Not all games have to be the same.
First of all, I totally disagree with you on what the landscape of gaming looks like. Even if you are only talking about AAA games I find disagreement.
Secondly, there are tons games that do things like prime. Obviously not in the same exact way but very similar. For example, bioshock or everyone gone to the rapture.
Lunar15 pretty much summed it up to me. Isolation shouldn't be the one thing that's relied on so heavily. There's room for that along with so much more.
Prime introduced some new things that were GOOD for Metroid. The first person view was new for Metroid and it was a good idea because it elevated the atmosphere even more. In addition, the various visors made for some interesting and cool looking upgrades.
This is a good new idea for an established franchise. Stripping off the things that make people want to play more of any franchise, is not a good idea. This is what happened with OtherM. Different iPs exist for different tastes.
So my question is: What is so bad about isolation? What's so bad about exploring a non-linear map? What's so bad about a stoic Samus? Why change all these perfectly good things just for the sake of change?
Another bad Metroid fan reporting in! Glad to know I'm not alone.
While I do love the Prime series, Super (my favourite Metroid and one of my top 3 all-time favourite games) and Zero Mission, I'd like the next Metroid game to be like Fusion and Other M, especially if it's a sequel to Fusion. I don't expect this to happen anytime soon, at least not before West gets it's Prime 4.
Samus always seemed to be a more introverted bounty hunter that seemed to value her alone-ness. I'd rather Nintendo add more of an archeological aspect to the game by allowing players to search for and collect artifacts and literature about the planet she's on.
Prime introduced some new things that were GOOD for Metroid. The first person view was new for Metroid and it was a good idea because it elevated the atmosphere even more. In addition, the various visors made for some interesting and cool looking upgrades.
This is a good new idea for an established franchise. Stripping off the things that make people want to play more of any franchise, is not a good idea. This is what happened with OtherM. Different iPs exist for different tastes.
So my question is: What is so bad about isolation? What's so bad about exploring a non-linear map? What's so bad about a stoic Samus? Why change all these perfectly good things just for the sake of change?
Not what you want to hear but it needs a bit more change so that it attracts more fans to the series. Metroid doesn't sell bad to us, but it clearly does to nintendo. So some changes I think are necessary to bring more people in. Maybe not radical stuff like Other M that get a majority of the fanbase mad, but enough that both camps are getting something.
Not what you want to hear but it needs a bit more change so that it attracts more fans to the series. Metroid doesn't sell bad to us, but it clearly does to nintendo. So some changes I think are necessary to bring more people in. Maybe not radical stuff like Other M that get a majority of the fanbase mad, but enough that both camps are getting something.
Maybe Metroid doesn't need to sell to everyone. It's design was never for the mass market. Maybe Nintendo needs to arrange it's budgets so it sells 1 million copies and make a good profit. They still have Mario and Zelda for the more casual, multi million sales segment.
Also, casual gamers have hundreds of games to chose from anyway. How many Dark Souls, Metroid Primes and Alien Isolations are out there for the few of us who want a more difficult or deeper game experience? Homogenization should not be something that we want.
I hate the ongoing mantra "METROID IS ABOUT ISOLATION, NO OTHER CHARACTERS"
Just seems closed-minded. It's ok for a series to evolve and change. It's like saying "Zelda should always be a prize to be won at the end of the game, she should never be a character in her own right, it's tradition!"
Let the devs experiment! Ammo in Prime 2, why not. More characters in Prime 3, sure, it was a great game. It's all good.
Metroid is a series in desperate need for (good) innovation. Nobody really needs a clone of Super Metroid with different level design - after all, the old game still exists (it seems map packs are the only kind of Mario game Nintendo is still willing to make). I liked Metroid Fusion but it really has been quite a while since that game came out. I wish they followed up on it... somehow.
I think one of the big problems, design-wise, is they dumbed almost everything down for the more recent games, even as far back as Fusion. Telling you what to do and where to go, spelling it out for you, locking doors behind you and pushing you forward rather than letting you discover things for yourself, and forcing characters upon you that break the flow and immersion of the game time and again, all while the mechanics of the game got simplified and automated and less skill-based.
It's the total opposite of what Metroid thrived at.
A good example of a game that took Metroid's formula - of isolation, self-progression, minimalism, and problem solving - and ran with it is DARK SOULS. Dark Souls is pretty much a medieval Metroid game, full of exploration, isolation, barriers, self-discovery, skill-based accomplishments, getting lost, charting through hostile environments, and the story is minimal and the characters you meet only barely give you vague hints at what to do.
I think about a Metroid game with as much guts and faith in its players as Dark Souls and it makes me salivate.
A good example of a game that took Metroid's formula - of isolation, self-progression, minimalism, and problem solving - and ran with it is DARK SOULS. Dark Souls is pretty much a medieval Metroid game, full of exploration, isolation, barriers, self-discovery, skill-based accomplishments, getting lost, charting through hostile environments, and the story is minimal and the characters you meet only barely give you vague hints at what to do.
I think about a Metroid game with as much guts and faith in its players as Dark Souls and it makes me salivate.
It's also pretty bad to change something only for the sake of change. Change can be bad some times. Maybe, just maybe, if new ideas are bad, it would be best to let something as is.
Also the "change only for the sake of change" is also close minded.
I just said that changes made in the Prime games showed that the series can be flexible. Maybe a while back someone made the decision "it has to change, even though it was perfectly fine so far," but then it turned out to be the right decision, as the game continued to be perfectly fine. All the Primes were great.
Heck, Metroid Prime Pinball was great.
So don't give me BS about call for change indicating closed-mindedness. If it was closed-minded to change the game then I want to see more of that kind of closed-mindedness.
Star Fox is actually a great example of how messing with a proven formula can damage a brand.
You have those players that REALLY like what the original Star Fox games did very well... and then Nintendo changed the formula like Sega with Sonic over and over and gave us game after game that barely felt like the originals, all to try and reach a "wider" audience.
I just said that changes made in the Prime games showed that the series can be flexible. Maybe a while back someone made the decision "it has to change, even though it was perfectly fine so far," but then it turned out to be the right decision, as the game continued to be perfectly fine. All the Primes were great.
Heck, Metroid Prime Pinball was great.
So don't give me BS about call for change indicating closed-mindedness. If it was closed-minded to change the game then I want to see more of that kind of closed-mindedness.
Prime didn't change the core concept, atmosphere and game design of Metroid. It was like a Super Metroid in 3D from the eyes of Samus.
I'm talking about changing the core concepts. The things that give a franchise it's identity in the first place (in the main games anyway). I'm against that. If someone wants a linear, cinematic game (for instance) well, there are plenty of games to choose from anyway.
That's like the last thing I want from Metroid. Absolutely flies in the face of what Metroid is about.
I basically want Prime or Super again. Sometimes I really don't see the point in a new Metroid game when it's so clearly already achieved perfection in 2D and 3D.
I just said that changes made in the Prime games showed that the series can be flexible. Maybe a while back someone made the decision "it has to change, even though it was perfectly fine so far," but then it turned out to be the right decision, as the game continued to be perfectly fine. All the Primes were great.
Heck, Metroid Prime Pinball was great.
So don't give me BS about call for change indicating closed-mindedness. If it was closed-minded to change the game then I want to see more of that kind of closed-mindedness.
Change can be good or bad. I'm fine with change if the change WORKS.
In fact, Other M's changes are, in theory, GREAT. You know what? I would LOVE to play a third-person Metroid game with a big emphasis on story and exploring Samus's identity and history while tying up the loose ends of Super and Fusion. I even would be okay with the authorization mechanic if it had been handled differently.
But the story was abysmal, the game was braindead easy (dodge button is the same as moving?!), the authorization mechanic was game-breaking (why don't you turn on your heat shields?!!), the linearity wasn't well-paced, etc. The changes could have worked with different or better execution, but they didn't.
In fact, I would LOVE to have a different team "reboot" Other M and try again, with a different approach while trying to do what the original attempted to do, only better. I can see myself loving it... rather than despising it.
Change is only good or bad depending on how well or poorly it is executed.
The core concept is primarily gameplay in nature. Explore, kill boss, get upgrade that lets you get to places you couldn't earlier, repeat. It's like how Zelda's core concept is explore, find dungeon, get dungeon item, kill boss, get piece of triforce, repeat. Both of these games can feature isolation and both can feature bustling settlements. Both have. Zelda 1 feels just about as bleak and isolated as Metroid 1. Metroid Prime 3 had areas full of friendly soldiers. It's all good...the core gameplay remained as fun as ever.
I think the problem is that many people love Samus but they don't like Metroid games. Maybe they like her suit design, maybe they like her face or it's their favorite character in Smash Bros.
So they want a game with Samus but not a Metoid. Something easier and more digestible maybe.
I think the problem is that many people love Samus but they don't like Metroid games. Maybe they like her suit design, maybe they like her face or it's their favorite character in Smash Bros.
So they want a game with Samus but not a Metoid. Something easier and more digestible maybe.
Nope. People are just ok with devs experimenting, that's all.
I like Yarn Yoshi and Clay Kirby. I like Zelda as the princess in distress and I like her as the scrappy pirate girl. I like third person and first person. Traditional Metroid is cool too. I just don't want the people making the games to feel like they have to fit into your limited view of what the game has to be.
The core concept is primarily gameplay in nature. Explore, kill boss, get upgrade that lets you get to places you couldn't earlier, repeat. It's like how Zelda's core concept is explore, find dungeon, get dungeon item, kill boss, get piece of triforce, repeat. Both of these games can feature isolation and both can feature bustling settlements. Both have. Zelda 1 feels just about as bleak and isolated as Metroid 1. Metroid Prime 3 had areas full of friendly soldiers. It's all good...the core gameplay remained as fun as ever.
I disagree. The main difference between Zelda and Metroid is the bleak atmosphere of the later. Isolation helps a lot to this. I particularly loved the first 3 Metroid games more than the first Zelda games because of their atmosphere. The sense of isolation in a distant planet was very special in these games.
Personally, i didn't like Prime 3's segments with the NPCs at all but at least the majority of the game was OK.
I never liked the path Samus took designwise after Zero Mission. I always felt like the Zero Suit Samus design was such a different thing that could have been its own game, and it betrayed what metroid was originally. I'd rather "Zero" just be a character in Metroid, separate from Samus, if that makes sense.
I never liked the path Samus took designwise after Zero Mission. I always felt like the Zero Suit Samus design was such a different thing that could have been its own game, and it betrayed what metroid was originally. I'd rather "Zero" just be a character in Metroid, separate from Samus, if that makes sense.
Unfortunately, Samus is female and the Zero Suit makes her look sexy. Lots of people only care for that. Which, of course, misses the whole point of the character. But it makes Samus more interesting to more people so yay i guess?
I disagree. The main difference between Zelda and Metroid is the bleak atmosphere of the later. Isolation helps a lot to this. I particularly loved the first 3 Metroid games more than the first Zelda games because of their atmosphere. The sense of isolation in a distant planet was very special in these games.
Personally, i didn't like Prime 3's segments with the NPCs at all but at least the majority of the game was OK.
But you could say the same of Zelda, if the series had decided to focus on the almost post-apoc feel of Zelda 1. Instead they went in another direction that also worked.
Nothing should be too sacred. Whatever works best in service of the game as designed. Pre-judging a game because "whoops, there's a town in it, game ruins everything and is now shit" is just the worst thing. It might be the best Metroid game ever created, that we wouldn't have had if they'd adhered to some outdated mantra people insist on. Or maybe the game works best isolationist! Nothing wrong with that either! As long as the devs came to that conclusion on their own.
I think at this point, given that the series is on a bit of a hiatus, it'd be best to return to roots. Now's not the time to be risky with the formula, even though they do need to find a way to increase sales.
Look, I agree with a lot of the sentiment in here. You ask any person who even knows even the slightest about metroid, and they'd say that the series is about isolation and exploration. I think that's core to the series. My biggest problem with Other M wasn't the story, but the linearity of the whole thing, so I'm in the same bucket. I have the same complaints and the exact same idea of what metroid should be.
But at the same time I don't think we need to rule out other ideas in the universe and poo-poo spinoffs. I also think that you can break some rules while emphasising others. A lot of people have a lot of different memories of the series and people put different weight on different mechanics. Hell, you have a ton of purists saying that Metroid Prime is nothing like a "real" metroid because it focuses on puzzles and is a much slower paced game. I remember when everyone was freaking out because Other M looked to be a "return to form". Being too rigid in your expectations keeps you from enjoying an otherwise great game.
Yep. We haven't really gotten a Metroid game like this since Prime 1. The games have gotten progressively more linear with Fusion and Other M going to the extreme where they lock doors and specifically tell you where to go. Prime 2's Light and Dark World thing got tedious after a while as well.
Linearity isn't a bad thing in itself but Metroid has always been better when it's about exploration.
Setting aside the gameplay, how would you feel about a more story focused Metroid game (assume its not Another M situation)? I'm think something along the line of Prime but with more depth. Mayhaps a Half-Life 2 / Bioshock scenario with the story being something you discover mostly for yourself. Also, how you you feel about them adding a recurring cast to the games? Mario has Luigi, Peach, Rosie, ect, Zelda has Impa, Zelda, Link, but Samus is on her own. While I know part of the formula of Metroid is being alone, that doesn't necessarily preclude a MGRR type supporting cast that can talk to Samus through her comms.
Another thought: How about a Metroid without Samus in a non multiplayer format. What I have in mind is a MGS2 / Halo 5
I have not played Halo 5?
type game (from a narrative standpoint) where you start as Samus and then switch off to a new character. I think could be made to work pretty easily: you are some GF grunt on a team to capture the bounty hunter turned wanted criminal Samus Aran who has been sighted on some desolate planet; your team gets wiped and your ride gets wrecked, eventually you find her gunship, but it's locked and the only way off the planet is to capture Samus and force her to take you off planet. Through the course of the game you discover that she's not as bad as the GF has been saying and by the end you either team up or let her go. This way you can also avoid wrecking Samus's gear at the beginning of that game: in fact, you could have her in some explosion and slam into a wall, but be perfectly fine afterwards as a continuity gag. And since you are just a lowly grunt, you wouldn't be powerful in the beginning and would need the upgrades.
Also.
Would you play a Zero Suit based game? Think MGS Metroid style, but you have the move set from Smash Bros aka Paralyzer Gun and Energy Whip, crawling instead of morph balls, ect ect.
Kojima plz. Konami has no hold on you
If there was a Metroid crossover, what would it be with? Or alternatively, if they made a Metroid in the style of another game a la Zelda in the style of Musou yields Hyrule Warriors, what game should it be?
That's like the last thing I want from Metroid. Absolutely flies in the face of what Metroid is about.
I basically want Prime or Super again. Sometimes I really don't see the point in a new Metroid game when it's so clearly already achieved perfection in 2D and 3D.
But it's not a Metroid, it's a zero suit game. Someone could have easily said before prime "Metroid has achieved perfection in 2D so why go 3D?"
I do not think fans would be as angry if we had an announced 2D/Prime game, but because we don't, federation force is the worst thing in the world when it will probably end up a solid, but not spectacular game.
Nothing should be too sacred. Whatever works best in service of the game as designed. Pre-judging a game because "whoops, there's a town in it, game ruins everything and is now shit" is just the worst thing. It might be the best Metroid game ever created, that we wouldn't have had if they'd adhered to some outdated mantra people insist on. Or maybe the game works best isolationist! Nothing wrong with that either! As long as the devs came to that conclusion on their own.
I don't disagree with this actually. However, OtherM exists. Before it's release i wasn't all that negative for "changes". I was curious. And i trusted Sakamoto that he knows what he is doing even though i was a bit worried. But in the end, they changed most of the core concepts of the franchise and the game not only turned to shit, it probably killed the franchise. Even if you don't count the terrible story, the game is still a very bad Metroid game.
So yeah, i'm sorry if i hate the idea of a story driven, cinematic, linear, NPC filled Metroid game. It just sounds nothing like Metroid to me.
Unfortunately, Samus is female and the Zero Suit makes her look sexy. Lots of people only care for that. Which, of course, misses the whole point of the character. But it makes Samus more interesting to more people so yay i guess?
It's also such a different character, too. The samus that ninja flips with a cool whip and rocket boots is nothing like the samus that trudges along in power armor with an arm blaster and missiles. I'm fine with a sexy catsuit character 2d action protagonist, you can make that fun and cool, but it's such a complete shift from the identity of the character. Even if you compare the ending shots of samus between fusion and zero mission, the idea behind the character feels so different between just those two games. I don't feel like it's just the artist either, there's some fundamental changes between her in the two games... (But also she kind of got pushed way further in that direction for Other M.)
This so many times.
Damn i hate those none isolated metroid games.
Give me a sequel to super metroid instead of being some clone of game standards these days.
I liked the setup with Adam (the AI!) in Fusion. You keep isolation in basic sense, but Samus still has someone to sound off ideas and basic plot points with. The computer gives exposition in places, to which Samus replies as you would reply to a computer, rare verbal acknowledgement, so that you know when she *does* talk back, that this shit's important.
Maybe even tie the narrations to loading screens on the elevator rides (though load times might be near-zero in the future, if Nintendo's going disc-less). The first time you ride a certain elevator, you get a brief, internal monologue relating to that point in the game's progression. Future times you ride that elevator, you get one of a wide array of random musings, with a few amusing easter eggs thrown in that have a rare "drop rate" as it were.
I think story focused (at least obvious) is the wrong path for Metroid. What sets it apart for me from other sci-fi action games is similar to the Souls games; that lonely feeling of exploring some place sinister and beautiful, and much of the story is told in the environments you traverse. The next Metroid game should really double down on this and have any NPC interaction few and far between and it's mostly you soaking up the atmosphere of desolate planets that make you feel small and alone while doing the great Metroid style unlocking new areas and gaining gadgets.
I think story focused (at least obvious) is the wrong path for Metroid. What sets it apart for me from other sci-fi action games is similar to the Souls games; that lonely feeling of exploring some place sinister and beautiful, and much of the story is told in the environments you traverse. The next Metroid game should really double down on this and have any NPC interaction few and far between and it's mostly you soaking up the atmosphere of desolate planets that make you feel small and alone while doing the great Metroid style unlocking new areas and gaining gadgets.
I'll take the Dark Souls comparison a step further.
Do you think Dark Souls fans would enjoy the next Dark Souls game if it pulled an Other M? Imagine Dark Souls 3 where the game pushes you forward and is incredibly linear and you can't even backtrack. Imagine all your attacks auto-target, even off-camera. Imagine they toss in loads of flashy QTE sections. Imagine the story is front and center, with over 3 hours of unskippable cutscenes and expository dialogue. Imagine your main character constantly talks to themselves and interrupts the quiet of the moment. Imagine your main character comes across a big boss and spends a whole minute crying in front of it. Imagine all your abilities and skills are arbitrarily unlocked by an NPC at random intervals. Imagine dodging was something you could just spam and it was tied to the same button you use to MOVE. Imagine if there was absolutely no new abilities or skills to acquire in the game over the previous one. Imagine if there were NPCs that constantly followed you around and shouted directions and info at you. Imagine the whole story told at you and none of it told through environment or gameplay.
I don't like your ideas, OP. Metroid should be gameplay oriented. The story doesn't matter much to me. Also, I don't like the idea of multiple characters. I've always liked that Samus is all alone on a hostile alien planet...it creates a real feeling of unnerving isolation.
I hate to say it, because it's so cliche to name drop them at this point, but I'd love for Nintendo to partner with From Software to create a new third person Metroid game. They're the masters of atmosphere and isolation and the level designs in most of their recent games has been unmatched. They'd need to make sure the game wasn't too challenging though, as that's never been the main part of Metroid's appeal.
From recent metroid threads it seems like it is unlike the zelda and mario franchises in terms of being able to change its formula, only staying the same.
I find this interesting but curious why that is.
I want multiple planets to visit, bounties to hunt across them, ship combat/flying, no hints other than by scanning or info you get from locals/ feeds or transmissions you hack into. Not part of the federation.
This is a really good point because I think the same thing happens with Zelda. The length of time between games builds up unreasonable expectations from the fans which leads to inevitable disappointment.
I didn't dislike Skyward Sword just because it it held your hand and used a stupid gimmick for the sword. I also hated it because I knew it was going to be at least 3 or 4 years before I even heard any info about the next game. Same thing seems to be going on with Metroid Federation Force.
FF doesn't look like a bad game, but boy does nobody care because they really want the next canon Metroid game, and if the next one sucks everyone's screwed because you have years before the next attempt.
No offense, but that sounds dreadful. People seem to be forgetting what Metroid is actually about, which is understandable I suppose as Nintendo doesn't even seem to really know. Metrod should be about solitary exploration, no other characters, no active story outside of optional lore (though honestly I can even do without that, but Prime did it well enough). There are enough other games that offer story and characters, but classic Metroid is unique as it is (or used to be) and we've hardly gotten enough proper Metroids as it is.
Sorry OP but I hate all of your ideas.
Metroid works well because of the isolated setting, and the way it delivers it's narrative works well in conjunction with the games mechanics.
I mean Other M tried to mix it up a bit and look what happened.
I guess a spinoff in the games universe that explores other aspects of the story could be okay (multiplayer battle games do not count). But I think a new mainline game is due first and foremost.
I could write the prescription for how to salvage and save and rehabilitate Metroid, and it wouldn't be what you say.
And that's not because what you say necessary has to be bad or couldn't work; It's because the ship needs to be righted for core fans. Right the ship then maybe consider branching out and experimenting. We need a powerful and satisfying return to form for the fans first. There'll always be a sense of unease and regret from fans until that happens.
Keep in mind since this is Nintendo I don't think there'll ever be another great Metroid game that resonates with the fanbase. I don't think it'll ever happen. I don't think Nintendo is capable. They just aren't that kind of dev.
I don't mind ZZS as an idea and the gameplay implementation in Zero Mission was quite good. I just don't think Nintendo has been as tasteful as they could be in presenting it on an aesthetic level. Giving Kojima the reins to it would only make matters worse.
I'm absolutely against a recurring supporting cast, especially one that talks to you throughout the game. I liked that idea with the SHODAN-like AI that Retro had for a game set between Prime 1 and 2 I think (or Prime 2 and 3?).
