Epsilon-delta
Banned
No different than my community college not allowing calculators for Calc 1 & 2.
You will learn how good or how bad you are at algebra.
You will learn how good or how bad you are at algebra.
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I heard a rumor that my university is doing some morally unethical stuff...
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terrisus
Member
6.5 years BSc. Math (~ 2 years for Thesis).
2.5 years MSCS (~ 1 year for Thesis)
On my second semester for PhD CS.
Well, I didn't have a Thesis during my undergrad, so I don't have any excuse on that - I just took a while >.>
But, yeah, I know that feel >.>
Ok? You're over-complicating it. They're giving people a taste of how hard senior level classes are..what else would you suggest? These people are still free to find a different major. There's a reason why a business student is a nickname for failed engineer.
You don't have to be exceptionally smart to pass freshman chemistry. You just have to care enough to study (and the classes usually have large curves anyway), especially considering it's like a retread of high school chemistry but at a faster pace.
High school performance is a predictor, not guarantee, of program potential. Most everyone admitted to my engineering program is top of their high school class, yet many many people still fail out or switch majors. I remember SO many classmates saying they made 4.0s in high school and never studied. Now they got to college and suddenly everything is different. I never had the grades they had in high school, but I knew how to study, so I surpassed many of my peers. It's not enough to be a smart high school student. You have to be hard-working or insanely smart in your field to make it through college.
Northeastmonk
Gold Member
There were a lot of scales when I went. 50's and 60's were the average and then with gen chem 2 the teacher had 1 test and that was the final. We even had our state wide chemistry test changed because the professor thought it was too easy. It takes some dedication, but some students were getting 100s on their tests. I believe they were also AP Chem students in high school. I had an introductory course to chemistry, so what made up for all that was seeing a tutor every week. I did well in physics 1 and 2 because I went to see a tutor every single time I had class. I wouldn't leave the campus until I got the information I needed. If anything take advantage of student services. My physics teacher was fantastic. She'd outline all the medical stuff and tell you what to focus on.
To be honest we did Organic Chemistry in Gen Chem. It was a small portion. We just learned how to name organic compounds and how to write them out. We didn't need to know their physical structure, but my professor was the type of person to tell us we had no chance in Gen Chem 2 or Orgo.
FleckSplat
Member
What is the difference between curves being commonplace, and grade inflation/wrongdoing as recently happened in Georgia?
Aren't curves just inflations of low scores at the end of the day?
Aren't curves just inflations of low scores at the end of the day?
terrisus
Member
Curves have a defined relationship to how the student actually scored, and how the rest of the class did.
There's no defined relationship - either individually or on a class-wide scale - to "grade inflation."
A curve is inflation of all scores.
I don't know that every school and every department specifically chooses a class to be extra hard, I think majors just have early, difficult classes that take on the roll of weeding people out.
It's somewhat hard to explain my overall position on this since you don't know our system while i am familiar with yours. That whole sentence does not even make sense for me because there's no need to give a taste on "harder" senior classes here. For example, our courses are measured in "education points", each education point is a fixed amount of hours of work needed to achieve it. It's obviously theoretical, but the onus is on the university to make it so as that is the standard of what our laws say about higher education. The length of the course is also in a linear relationship with the education points. It's all very structured.
Northeastmonk
Gold Member
It has happened in nursing school. The professor gives everyone a hard test and if the entire class misses a question or if we all do extremely bad then all the professors get together and they make a final consensus. That means they add points or they take away a few questions. I think for science courses and even healthcare courses the professors and teachers make the test themselves. They write it all out and if there is an error they usually deduct it from the final score. I had a chem teacher propose huge Lewis Dot structures and this was because he was an actual chemist making plastic. He literally took his work and made it our own.
A lot of professors will recognize their mistakes. I've seen the entire class come together and request a scale. Sometimes it works and sometimes it doesn't.
XiaNaphryz
LATIN, MATRIPEDICABUS, DO YOU SPEAK IT
Obligatory:
College freshmen starting out
College freshmen halfway through the year
Sophomores
Juniors
Seniors/Super Seniors
Grad students
The working world
College freshmen starting out
College freshmen halfway through the year
Sophomores
Juniors
Seniors/Super Seniors
Grad students
The working world
XiaNaphryz
LATIN, MATRIPEDICABUS, DO YOU SPEAK IT
Better to figure out whether you need to switch majors in your first year than in your third. I remember my friends all talking about what the weed out classes were supposed to be when we started university almost 20 years ago. Everyone hated O-chem...even the Chemistry majors who graduated and went out to grad school or the Bio majors who went out to grad/med school.
You're right. It's rough. It sucks. But you're technically paying for the opportunity to pursue a degree. Some people find out early in their pursuit that they need to make changes lol.
It's not that they want to arbitrarily cut people out, it's that they want to keep what they consider to be the right people.
mohsinkhan
Member
OP your over analyzing the situation, hit the books and do your best. Seems like you are now realizing college is not the same as high school.
Zippedpinhead
Member
Every college program has weed out courses, some are earlier than others but there usually are two-three within the first two years at UNi.
My school basically revamped the mechanical engineering courses after they realized they went too far in that direction. Still had the weed out courses, but they had them earlier on. The point was to get the students who were going to quit to quit early so that they wouldn't throw their money and time at the same classes over and over again dragging the department down with Failures and lower graduation rates.
Typically if you couldn't advance at junior or senior year, the students would just leave, vs if you can't handle it freshman year and just switch majors.
My school basically revamped the mechanical engineering courses after they realized they went too far in that direction. Still had the weed out courses, but they had them earlier on. The point was to get the students who were going to quit to quit early so that they wouldn't throw their money and time at the same classes over and over again dragging the department down with Failures and lower graduation rates.
Typically if you couldn't advance at junior or senior year, the students would just leave, vs if you can't handle it freshman year and just switch majors.
terrisus
Member
Not to mention that most courses you take the first year or two are going to be applicable in one way or another to most majors.
Sure, it may be as a general elective instead of a required course, but still, most things aren't going to go to waste when people discover they aren't cut out for Physics and go with Psychology instead >.>
Lev
Member
Indeed. Over here, my school's Chem Eng. program is very competitive and known to be dream crusher. That's why even the general chemistry course here can be a killer :/
Epsilon-delta
Banned
Lev
Member
I agree with you. I'm fine with programs or courses that want to reduce the student count, by giving ridiculously hard exams. However, I can only imagine how shitty it must feel to get a bad grade in one of those difficult courses, even though you tried your best. To think that you ended up paying thousands for just that single course, and for a failing grade! If university tuition was 1/2 or 1/3 of what it costs in America, then it would be an easier bullet to take to the chest, in my opinion. :x
terrisus
Member
You know that joke, "What do you call the person who graduated last from medical school?
Doctor
It's like that. Lots of people with C's built a ton of shit you use everyday. Relax.
Lev
Member
Bah. I got B- in Calculus, and only because I bombed one midterm that I should of aced. I got so nervous that I misread a few questions and answered them improperly. Apparently, I was one of the few students who got the related rates problem correctly, and I answered the question extremely briefly compared to the others and still got full points. That was my only glorious moment in that course, because when it came to final exam time, I failed the exam with the 50%+ students.
Also, isn't C suppose to mean average? I thought being average was suppose to be okay, but apparently not at school. :x
Hah. Usually I hear that joke about doctors and surgeons.
FleckSplat
Member
Epsilon-delta
Banned
It's hard for me to imagine a civil engineering student getting straight Cs in their math courses and go on to do FE -> PE.
jchap
Member
In EE one of our weed-out courses was the first circuits class. The only problem with this was that it was required for practically all other engineering departments to pass the course and many ME seniors were failing the last class they needed. I think the ME department ended up making their own circuits course.
neogaffer1
Banned
Bah. I got B- in Calculus, and only because I bombed one midterm that I should of aced. I got so nervous that I misread a few questions and answered them improperly. Apparently, I was one of the few students who got the related rates problem correctly, and I answered the question extremely briefly compared to the others and still got full points. That was my only glorious moment in that course, because when it came to final exam time, I failed the exam with the 50%+ students.
Also, isn't C suppose to mean average? I thought being average was suppose to be okay, but apparently not at school. :x
Hah. Usually I hear that joke about doctors and surgeons.
That's what I've always been told. C--average, D--below average, F--failing, B--above average, A--cream of the crop.
But apparently colleges are expecting 50% of people to fail.
terrisus
Member
You may be in for some surprises... >.>
I've seen it. I've tutored a lot of them. It happens man, C's in math is common.
The bridges will be okay.
Solidarity in our Math Degrees, go us
terrisus
Member
Solidarity in our Math Degrees, go us
MathGAF understands. =(
SnowFlakeCake
Member
I had that with my university course and it's not a bad thing. My uni wanted a good UKCAT score and AAA a-levels but anyone can achieve that, it's a case of having no life for a new months and just hitting the books. When university started by end of first year 30% of the students were gone, given the pretty high academic standard to get in I was pretty shocked at the number kicked out so quickly. But it was only near the end that I found out it all had to do with the bodies my university reported to, in the past my uni had put out pretty incompetent dentists so to stop their 'license' being taken, they had to keep seriously high standards to keep the dentistry course going. So it might seem you're uni is being mean but I doubt it, they have standards they need to stick to and if you're not cut out for it, too bad.
Education is hard, boring and the reward ain't amazing. I'm not going to complain about my career as I knew that I was getting into but man on man did I choose the most tedious profession out there. I know much smarter people than me that those the non-vocational courses and it hasn't worked out so well, the working world fucking sucks.
Education is hard, boring and the reward ain't amazing. I'm not going to complain about my career as I knew that I was getting into but man on man did I choose the most tedious profession out there. I know much smarter people than me that those the non-vocational courses and it hasn't worked out so well, the working world fucking sucks.
Northeastmonk
Gold Member
I don't think grades define a person as long as they know how to do something. Half of what we see everyday was made by someone who failed at something in life.
A part of it is a lot like Fight Club. There's people cleaning up after you who never went to college or they possibly dropped out of school. They have more experience than the student who studies every night.
I heard this said before, but failure can make someone better at their profession. Passion exists in people who have never taken a calculus test or gotten into medical school.
terrisus
Member
Oh snap.
Good. It's a pre-med course.
"Half of what we see everyday was made by someone who failed at something in life. "
I'd change that to like... 100%. There isn't anything wrong with failure as long as you learn from it.
It probably depends on your college/country. At my uni a B is average (70%), C is below average (55%) and anything below a C- (50%) is a fail.
Epsilon-delta
Banned
I think this would be fine if it didn't come at the cost of students taking out thousands in loans with nothing to show for it. I can see professional school but for undergrad it's harsh to design it so a certain percentage are gone but still end up with all those loans.
Syph Medwes
Member
Unethical? Perhaps. But if you plan on going to med school or pursuing chem further it will only benefit you. Early ochem is pretty easy, as is especially 1st year chem, so you should be doing well anyway. Just study smarter dude and you'll be fine.
what? however shadily ethical the means are, this will raise the value of the education. You actually have more of an incentive to do this course in my opinion, because if you do well, then that is an accomplishment. University isn't supposed to be easy. That's what devalues the degree in the first place, too many people graduating.
Goddamn I wish uni were harder
or that my uni did this
(and we're already at the top!...
)
what? however shadily ethical the means are, this will raise the value of the education. You actually have more of an incentive to do this course in my opinion, because if you do well, then that is an accomplishment. University isn't supposed to be easy. That's what devalues the degree in the first place, too many people graduating.
Goddamn I wish uni were harder
or that my uni did this
(and we're already at the top!...
in canada
terrisus
Member
Not sure what you're looking for exactly, other than the fact that people are able to get degrees with Cs - which they are.
(Also, Engineering is so cute. The Ordinary Differential Equations course that always seems to get mentioned as difficult was part of my course set for a Mathematics major, and it was one of the easier courses >.>)
SnowFlakeCake
Member
I'm not sure what you mean by professional school. I don't understand any of the us educational system, seeing all this stuff about pre-med in this thread is confusing the shit out of me. I'm from the UK where it's simply a case of high school, A- levels aged 16 and then into university by 18 which was when I got into dentistry. Going by this thread it's not a case of straight from high school into medicine but rather you've got to do some other courses before?
I've heard the FE isn't hard to pass if you've paid attention in your classes. I'm taking it in a couple of months.
Math isn't the hard part of engineering. Making real things that works is.
My roommate was a math major and I was helping him with his math homework his last semester, lolol. To be fair, I think it's because he's a lazy student (despite this good grades) and our math program lets you pick from lots of different electives, and he chose really easy ones the whole time.
And for Civil, no, what determines your ability to practice civil engineering (because it's usually public sector) is becoming a licensed PE (professional engineer). An unlicensed BS in Civil Engineering is not very employable, because civil engineers do work for the public, and to do public projects, you are required in the U.S. to become a licensed PE. The FE exam is the first step toward that.
Epsilon-delta
Banned
Yes, if you've paid attention, which I don't think is a C student imo.
Plus, you have the work ethic, so I know you're going to pass it.
You are very misinformed if you think C means what you are saying. Of course it varies by location but it's not as simple as "pay attention-get A" in University math.
Yeah... not my idea of shady. I'm graduating with my Chem BS this year and have TAed Gen Chem for years... it sucks that it's "artificial" but part of that may stem from an influx of upper division students not coming in with the required skillset or work ethic. I actually think weed out classes are a good thing... it's better to find out at the beginning that you don't have the requisite skill set (or really more importantly, work ethic) to make it in that field ahead of time, rather than waste 3 years of time and money to find that P-Chem is too much and you didn't learn enough in Gen Chem to make it through Quant.
In my experience, a good Gen Chem class has a bimodal distribution curve. So an inverse bell curve. Very few students with C's, many with D's/F's or A's/B's: basically a separation of grades into "Those who get it" and "those who don't". To me it sounds like they're raising the bar for "those who get it" and frankly they're doing you a favor teaching you the "why". Especially if organic chemistry is in your future it really is helpful to understand "why" reactions happen, not just that they do. It's the difference between memorizing your way through organic chemistry and actually learning organic chemistry. The problem is, you have to be open to actually "learning" the material, not just the test.
In my experience, a good Gen Chem class has a bimodal distribution curve. So an inverse bell curve. Very few students with C's, many with D's/F's or A's/B's: basically a separation of grades into "Those who get it" and "those who don't". To me it sounds like they're raising the bar for "those who get it" and frankly they're doing you a favor teaching you the "why". Especially if organic chemistry is in your future it really is helpful to understand "why" reactions happen, not just that they do. It's the difference between memorizing your way through organic chemistry and actually learning organic chemistry. The problem is, you have to be open to actually "learning" the material, not just the test.
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