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[demosthenes]

Galileo says HI!

I once got in a fight w/ my religious teacher about him and how he was locked up.

I always questioned everything about the church, but then I started to find out about what they did which turned to hatred of the church. That hatred then was turned to religion as a whole. Now I'm just meh, the only time religion comes up in my life now is when I enter these threads or when my mom says something stupid to me.

 

[Branduil]

I wish people would stop dissing the dark ages. They weren't 'dark' at all and were a time of a great interchange of ideas between east and west as the work of Muslim scholars who had taken and built upon classical thinking became available to the Europeans. Modern disciplines of chemistry, astronomy, mathematics and even the basis of logic and scientific method were all born out of the progresses made in this period.

The ignorance of history in this thread is pretty ironic.

 

[Dude Abides]

See, this is why I hate both sides of these debates.
Both so blind to the real truth, and instead just dead set on forcing your own twisted ideals on others.

 

[demosthenes]

I wish people would stop dissing the dark ages. They weren't 'dark' at all and were a time of a great interchange of ideas between east and west as the work of Muslim scholars who had taken and built upon classical thinking became available to the Europeans. Modern disciplines of chemistry, astronomy, mathematics and even the basis of logic and scientific method were all born out of the progresses made in this period.

You disagree with any historian I've come across.

Fall of the Roman Empire to at least 1,000 were pretty bad in Europe.

 

[BronzeWolf]

But you're just building a strawman for you to knock down. What do you expect me to say to something like that?

Christ wasn't the result of God realizing his mistake.

I am not putting strawmans, I am just continuing with your metaphor of the girl, with my own metaphor of having children. So far you haven't convinced me that killing your children is not an absolutely horrible thing to do.

You saying the new testament is god not realizing it's mistake is even more awful, cause then you get shit like people offering their spouses and girl maidens for rape in exchange of of a saint man.

Well, first, I'm going to have to ask you to calm down. You're way too heated over this.

Second, religion of all shapes and sizes has helped produce the foundations for governments, society, and advancement.
It has built and toppled cultures.
Caused man to question his place and look further on than just today.
Now, would life be better or worse without it?
You really can't say, because no one knows how the world would be if everything changed.

Has religion caused pain and suffering? Well, in a sense, you can say that.
Really it's just idiots being idiots and using a "cause" to propel themselves.
Not much different from say, the US government's involvement in Korea to try and stop Communism.

Anyway, that's my two cents, and I full expect you to either laugh at this or dismiss it entirely.
So have at it.

I see your point. But I also raise another one. Is religious needed NOW to build better societies, governments and advancement?

Name a person that, in the name of science, has done despicable things
Name a person that, in the name of religion, has done despicable things

The difference is that without religion, we can go ahead and call those idiots in the US government IDIOTS, and not people of faith.

 

[Dever]

The "Dark ages" are filthy Renaissance propaganda!

 

[BronzeWolf]

Science would have advanced anyway, due to the way science works.

It's based on preponderance of evidence, not on who funds it.

As long as people keep finding shit, and other people question that shit, science will advance

 

[Drkirby]

ROFL.

I hope you guys realize you're arguing about an entity that doesn't exist and events that never happened. Imagine the productivity of earth if there wasn't any religion to hem and haw about.

Your god is exactly as real as Harry Potter, with the exact same amount of evidence to back it up.

I think Harry Potter has less plot holes.

 

[AceBandage]

Hey, if the shoe fits.

I see your point. But I also raise another one. Is religious needed NOW to build better societies, governments and advancement?

Name a person that, in the name of science, has done despicable things
Name a person that, in the name of religion, has done despicable things

The difference is that without religion, we can go ahead and call those idiots in the US government IDIOTS, and not people of faith.

I'm not in any position to say if what people believe is needed or not.
I mean, even if you got rid of all religions today, this very second, people would still fight, wars would still be started, murders would still happen.

So, does it really matter if religion stays or not?
My argument was that in the past it was useful, nothing more.

 

[BronzeWolf]

I think Harry Potter has less plot holes.

HER-MAYOWNEEEE

 

[Dever]

I see your point. But I also raise another one. Is religious needed NOW to build better societies, governments and advancement?

Maybe not. I'm not sure it was ever 'needed', but it did do those things.

Name a person that, in the name of science, has done despicable things

Nazi scientists doing experiments on jews and other undesirable kinds of human

The difference is that without religion, we can go ahead and call those idiots in the US government IDIOTS, and not people of faith.

I definitely agree people shouldn't get a free pass on their stupidity if they just say it's their religious belief. That shit's annoying.

 

[AceBandage]

Science would have advanced anyway, due to the way science works.

It's based on preponderance of evidence, not on who funds it.

As long as people keep finding shit, and other people question that shit, science will advance

Science would still have advanced, yes.
I'm not sure if society would have advanced even close to as quickly, though.
People having a common bond or belief makes it easier for people to want to protect their way of life.

 

[Dude Abides]

I see your point. But I also raise another one. Is religious needed NOW to build better societies, governments and advancement?

You shouldn't have conceded his point. He is trying to have it both ways. Things that are considered good, like building governments, inquiring about one's place in the world, etc. are attributed to religion, when they could just as easily be attributed to man being naturally inquisitive and a social animal trying to organize his society. Then when it comes to things considered bad, such as wars and persecution and whatnot, it's just "idiots being idiots" and religion is just along for the ride. It's just special pleading dressed up in a pseudo-historian's clothes.

 

[MisterHero]

People do what all the time?

Use their position of authority to take advantage of a child? Sure, that happens pretty often.

What doesn't happen so often, at least in the normal world, is an organization deciding to protect its child-raping members for decades, while further exposing children to danger and mounting smear campaigns against whistle-blowers.

So, yeah, "all the time" is a stretch.

As for your guess about how some of would behave if the church suddenly developed a conscience and did the right thing...

How about we wait until that happens? Should only be a couple years, tops.

As for "all the time" I meant the act of molestation, not some giant body protecting them. And in the crime of molestation, a position of authority (such as 'adult') exists without a protective organization. That's what I meant. Sorry if that's being pedantic. :lol

I can't begin to guess. I'm only going by the greater chance that life will go on. There is too much other life going on for it not to. It will prosper while leaving more opportunities for crime and abuse just as well. And this is considering that law will continue but with less focus on aggressive enforcement. Holding someone responsible doesn't solve the injustice, in the case of AIDS. The issue might get national priority and funding but the cure itself could take a long time to perfect (or maybe soon, I haven't kept up on AIDS research).

Some people will pay attention and some people won't. Personally, I feel bad for what happened but for what I want out of life vs. where I am now, I don't know if I could help to change it.

 

[BronzeWolf]

Science would still have advanced, yes.
I'm not sure if society would have advanced even close to as quickly, though.
People having a common bond or belief makes it easier for people to want to protect their way of life.

Society has advanced more since the enlightenment in terms of human rights, comfort and understanding of the world. I don't see how anyone would need more proof than that...

Nazi scientists doing experiments on jews and other undesirable kinds of human

Why were they experimenting on jews and not on themselves?

Does the jewish classification ring any bells of what I am saying?

 

[AceBandage]

You shouldn't have conceded his point. He is trying to have it both ways. Things that are considered good, like building governments, inquiring about one's place in the world, etc. are attributed to religion, when they could just as easily be attributed to man being naturally inquisitive and a social animal trying to organize his society. Then when it comes to things considered bad, such as wars and persecution and whatnot, it's just "idiots being idiots" and religion is just along for the ride. It's just special pleading dressed up in a pseudo-historian's clothes.

Society flourishes if people have common ideals, and religion helped that along. You can't deny that, doing so is just ignorant.

Why were they experimenting on jews and not on themselves?

Does the jewish classification ring any bells of what I am saying?

They also experimented on Gypsies, twins, blacks, people with disabilities and pretty much anyone they didn't think were "fully human".
It had very little to do with religion.

 

[Dude Abides]

Why were they experimenting on jews and not on themselves?

Does the jewish classification ring any bells of what I am saying?

It wasn't Judaism the religion the Nazis were primarily concerned with, but rather the Jewish ethnicity that they considered subhuman. A Jew who converted to Lutheranism would still have been killed.

 

[Count Dookkake]

As for "all the time" I meant the act of molestation, not some giant body protecting them. And in the crime of molestation, a position of authority (such as 'adult') exists without a protective organization. That's what I meant. Sorry if that's being pedantic. :lol

That's cute, but since you were repsonding to me, I was very specifically referring to kids raped by holy men. That inludes the protection of the rapists by an organization that is supposed to be "the good guys."

 

[Dude Abides]

Society flourishes if people have common ideals, and religion helped that along. You can't deny that, doing so is just ignorant.

Is this the type of vague and banal platitude one learns in History 101? In any event it does nothing to rebut the observation that you want to have it both ways.

 

[MisterHero]

That's cute, but since you were repsonding to me, I was very specifically referring to kids raped by holy men. That inludes the protection of the rapists by an organization that is supposed to be "the good guys."

Well then we have an understanding?

 

[mokeyjoe]

You disagree with any historian I've come across.

Fall of the Roman Empire to at least 1,000 were pretty bad in Europe.

Presumably older historians rooted in an enlightenment era account of the time period, perpetuated by Victorian bias. Over the last few decades even the term 'Dark Ages' has fallen from academic use, used only to suggest that it is a period of history we know little about. To be fair the reassessment of the 'dark ages' is a relatively recent development in history and archaeology and many deeply entrenched prejudices need to be challenged before it seeps into the wider public consciousness.

I mean we're talking about the time of the Islamic Golden Age - one of the greatest periods of scientific advance ever, where the Muslim Empire occupied large swathes of southern Europe, jostling for land with the Holy Roman Empire and the Byzantine Empire. Even in northern Europe Britain was booming, running trade routes down to the Mediterranean trading olive oil and other consumables for valuable tin and copper.

There may not have been a great big empire to stick a pin in and say 'look at that'. but it was a booming time both economically and intellectually.

 

[Count Dookkake]

Well then we have an understanding?

Perhaps. As I understand our exchange thus far, you attempted to rebut my point about god "teaching" kids by letting them get raped by his foot-soldiers who then are shuffled around to hide them from justice. Your rebuttal consisted of a misguided attempt to equate molestation (and a molester protection scheme) on an industrial level with that of the garden-variety pervert.

If this is a fair representation, then it seems the only understanding to reach is that you should have just agreed with me from the beginning or stayed quiet on the matter.

 

[pcostabel]

It does when you think about what those 4 billion have to offer to God. Say you love a girl, give her tons of stuff, and your everything. Then she doesn't appreciate it, and attributes it to her just being pretty and she deserves it, then she leaves you without batting an eyelash. That's pretty much how God feels about the other 16 billion people.

So god is like a self centered pretty girl? That actually explains a lot.

 

[Fimbulvetr]

But your god can, he is omnipotent and omniscient, he can do whatever he wants. So he has no excuse for such an amoral behavior!

I'm not Christian, but if we were to go into the psychological implications of an all powerful, immortal being then assuming their moral/standards/thought process is even close to the same as yours would be pretty weird.

There are a couple of ways to go about this:

If said being is all knowing: Well that just destroys all chances of a human-like thought process. Our personalities are created through learning. What's there to learn if you know everything? The personality of one with that kind of knowledge is beyond perception.

' ' ' isn't all knowing: Assuming, in this case, it starts off with a human like thought process; an infinite lifespan would wear away at the mind. Leading either to insanity or just being completely jaded. And as eternity marches, on you'd probably just stop caring.

' ' ' is mindless: This one kind of explains itself.

What if it did have a human-like mind? What if its perception of "good" was completely different from most people?




Well, that was a nice way to waste a minute. :lol

 

[MisterHero]

Perhaps. As I understand our exchange thus far, you attempted to rebut my point about god "teaching" kids by letting them get raped by his foot-soldiers who then are shuffled around to hide them from justice. Your rebuttal consisted of a misguided attempt to equate molestation (and a molester protection scheme) on an industrial level with that of the garden-variety pervert.

If this is a fair representation, then it seems the only understanding to reach is that you should have just agreed with me from the beginning or stayed quiet on the matter.

Well okay, I don't think I've understood the scope of the Vatican conspiracy that is known so far. I'll have to read about it some more.

If you can't tell already I actively avoid religion threads 99% of the time.

 

[v0yce]

I am not putting strawmans, I am just continuing with your metaphor of the girl, with my own metaphor of having children. So far you haven't convinced me that killing your children is not an absolutely horrible thing to do.

You saying the new testament is god not realizing it's mistake is even more awful, cause then you get shit like people offering their spouses and girl maidens for rape in exchange of of a saint man.

I never started a metaphor with a girl. I made one brief comment about parents punishing their children to make the point that sometimes good comes from bad. Hand in hand with that is the idea that not all bad things lead to good. I assumed that went without saying, but that seems to be where you're taking it.

 

[blazinglord]

The second bolded part explains the first bolded part.

Try living in a house in the suburbs in the deep south, and when your neighbors come during your first week to invite you to their church, tell them you don't go to church. Tell me how well they deal with that and how your life for at least the next few years isn't hell. Most of my friends and I can tell you plenty of stories.

Your profile says you're in England. You don't know how lucky you have it.

It's nobody's business whether you accept or decline the invitation to visit the local church though. Sure they might be offended and think you're being anti-social. But I personally don't need or crave the approval of my neighbours. If the said-neighbours become intolerant about it, then I wouldn't want to associate myself them.

Again, religion belongs in the private sphere. The world doesn't need militant Atheism or indeed, militant Evangelicalism. What does anyone honestly get from lecturing and belittling other people with differing views? Except for a lot of enmity on both sides.

Not a lot of people are aware of this. But England actually has a state religion. The head of state is also the head of the church. Lords spirituals and bishops have legislative powers in parliament. So really, England is not the beacon of secularism as people seem to make out.

God is fucking useless

Do you feel better for saying that now? I don't know why you feel your version of the truth is any better or superior to that of a Christian's. Nor do I, in the western world, see the need to arguing about the virtues of religion in such a forceful manner. Whatever happened to live and let live?

 

[BreakyBoy]

That the second foundation is actually on Terminus?

I'm amazed no one else has pointed this one out. Where's HariSeldon?

Either way: well played.

 

[Princess Carl]

What recon? A savior character was profisised all throughout the old testament. He came and changed the way the world behaved.

That's not a recon. That's just the next chapter.



Probably.



How can I live trying to be good to others? How does modeling my life after Christ make my life horrible?

At the first bold:

Every piece of evidence that questions how an all powerful, all caring, all knowing, forgiver of all, savior, etc. can account for the acts on this earth are simply placed in the "LOL thats gods plan, obviously it was for a reason you just can't understand, have faith, etc."

This kind of justification is simple minded and plain ignorant. When you can't accept things for what they are and refuse much more sound evidence, you get religious explanations.


At the second bold:

Thats not what I said at all. I did not imply that thinking the way I said meant that I do not have compassion for others. Just because you are religious does not automatically make you a good person and vice versa.

My question was how are you able to live your life unable to give any credit(good or bad) to anyone other than an omnipotent being. And then just for fun, whens it's bad, theres suddenly a convenient excuse why god didn't do anything to help.

 

[MadOdorMachine]

To the OP. It really sucks that you had an argument with your dad about religion. I would encourage you to continue to talk with him about it, because that's one of the best ways you can both educate yourselves and you should be thankful that you're able to have a conversation with your dad. I know it sounds odd, but in most cases when Christians do/say things like this it's because they care about the person. I would recommend you look up Sir Isaac Newton and the history of science and christianity/religion. Until very recently, they were both closely linked. Science in no way disproves there is a God and in fact, most people believe in intelligent design. The Bible does have some translation/interpretation issues, but the core of it is what's important. Even Christians argue about interpretation.

I see your point. But I also raise another one. Is religious needed NOW to build better societies, governments and advancement?

Name a person that, in the name of science, has done despicable things
Name a person that, in the name of religion, has done despicable things

The difference is that without religion, we can go ahead and call those idiots in the US government IDIOTS, and not people of faith.

I can't think of a single person that is responsible for despicable things in the name of science, but I can think of despicable things that have occurred thanks to science and technology. How about abortion - the killing of innocent life? Nuclear, biological and chemical warfare? Robotics, UAVs, invisibility? In the end science is very much used in killing people so the people who are making this stuff are in many ways just as much to blame as the people using the science as weapons.

As far as our leadership goes, very few of them are true Christians imo. God is judging our country for it too. I'm sure most of the people around here will dismiss 9/11, Katrina, the BP oil spill and our economic collapse as coincidence but I think we do that at our own peril. Even people on this board will argue about it though, so what hope is there that the government will wake up? It's unfortunate because there's no reason religion and science can't peacefully co-exist.

 

[Princess Carl]

To the OP. It really sucks that you had an argument with your dad about religion. I would encourage you to continue to talk with him about it, because that's one of the best ways you can both educate yourselves and you should be thankful that you're able to have a conversation with your dad. I know it sounds odd, but in most cases when Christians do/say things like this it's because they care about the person. I would recommend you look up Sir Isaac Newton and the history of science and christianity/religion. Until very recently, they were both closely linked. Science in no way disproves there is a God and in fact, most people believe in intelligent design. The Bible does have some translation/interpretation issues, but the core of it is what's important. Even Christians argue about interpretation.



I can't think of a single person that is responsible for despicable things in the name of science, but I can think of despicable things that have occurred thanks to science and technology. How about abortion - the killing of innocent life? Nuclear, biological and chemical warfare? Robotics, UAVs, invisibility? In the end science is very much used in killing people so the people who are making this stuff are in many ways just as much to blame as the people using the science as weapons.

As far as our leadership goes, very few of them are true Christians imo. God is judging our country for it too. I'm sure most of the people around here will dismiss 9/11, Katrina, the BP oil spill and our economic collapse as coincidence but I think we do that at our own peril. Even people on this board will argue about it though, so what hope is there that the government will wake up? It's unfortunate because there's no reason religion and science can't peacefully co-exist.

What has god done for us then?

Diseases? Check
Gave us the ability to kill one another? Check
Built an unstable Planet? Check
Built an unstable being? Check

Blame games are fun.

God is judging our country for it too

Oh. joke post

 

[MadOdorMachine]

At the first bold:

Every piece of evidence that questions how an all powerful, all caring, all knowing, forgiver of all, savior, etc. can account for the acts on this earth are simply placed in the "LOL thats gods plan, obviously it was for a reason you just can't understand, have faith, etc."

This kind of justification is simple minded and plain ignorant. When you can't accept things for what they are and refuse much more sound evidence, you get religious explanations.


At the second bold:

Thats not what I said at all. I did not imply that thinking the way I said meant that I do not have compassion for others. Just because you are religious does not automatically make you a good person and vice versa.

My question was how are you able to live your life unable to give any credit(good or bad) to anyone other than an omnipotent being. And then just for fun, whens it's bad, theres suddenly a convenient excuse why god didn't do anything to help.

As far as Christianity is concerned, by the time God does intervene, it will be too late. It will be the second coming of Christ. God is pretty much hands off until a certain point. It may sound like a cop out, but according to the Bible, this is all Gods plan. My biggest problem with the Bible is the whole heaven and hell thing. It just seems so harsh that all of the good people in this world will be condemned to an eternity of hell and anguish simply because they didn't accept Jesus Christ as their savior. That's a tough pill to swallow.

 

[MadOdorMachine]

What has god done for us then?

Diseases? Check
Gave us the ability to kill one another? Check
Built an unstable Planet? Check
Built an unstable being? Check

Blame games are fun.


Oh. joke post

It wasn't like that at first. Adam and Eve were immortal until they fell from grace just like the angels. We were always given a choice and things like death were a result of our sin and mortality. As far as the planet goes, the bible does say that in the end God will create a new heaven and earth as well as give us new bodies. That's one of the reasons I question whether we (humans) will actually occupy the realm of heaven. I look at it as that when all of this tribulation is done, there will be a rebirth and after that mankind will live harmoniously with God, nature and science and we will more than likely start exploring space and other dimensions.

 

[Shanadeus]

That the second foundation is actually on Terminus?

Spoiler

It wasn't

It wasn't like that at first. Adam and Eve were immortal until they fell from grace just like the angels. We were always given a choice and things like death were a result of our sin and mortality. As far as the planet goes, the bible does say that in the end God will create a new heaven and earth as well as give us new bodies. That's one of the reasons I question whether we (humans) will actually occupy the realm of heaven. I look at it as that when all of this tribulation is done, there will be a rebirth and after that mankind will live harmoniously with God, nature and science and we will more than likely start exploring space and other dimensions.

So just because Adam and Eve didn't comply, he had to punish their kids?

 

[v0yce]

Every piece of evidence that questions how an all powerful, all caring, all knowing, forgiver of all, savior, etc. can account for the acts on this earth are simply placed in the "LOL thats gods plan, obviously it was for a reason you just can't understand, have faith, etc."

This kind of justification is simple minded and plain ignorant. When you can't accept things for what they are and refuse much more sound evidence, you get religious explanations.

No that's just a silly answer that you've picked out to beat up on. God's plan is for us to seek him out and follow his teachings. We don't have to if we don't want to. The world is ours to do whatever we want with it. Good or bad.

My question was how are you able to live your life unable to give any credit(good or bad) to anyone other than an omnipotent being. And then just for fun, whens it's bad, theres suddenly a convenient excuse why god didn't do anything to help.

That's an awful lot of projecting you've done there.

I don't feel that way, nor have I said anything like that. I believe we were created by God. If you stop there, I suppose all things are possible only through God. However, I also believe in free will and thus our actions (good or bad) are our own.

 

[which1spink]

I wonder why there's even a discussion. The usual and right answer to the OP'd be FHUTA.


JESUS CHRIST!

 

[demosthenes]

As far as our leadership goes, very few of them are true Christians imo. God is judging our country for it too. I'm sure most of the people around here will dismiss 9/11, Katrina, the BP oil spill and our economic collapse as coincidence but I think we do that at our own peril. Even people on this board will argue about it though, so what hope is there that the government will wake up? It's unfortunate because there's no reason religion and science can't peacefully co-exist.

Obama is a muslim right?

If you're going to sit there and tell me that you think God caused 9/11, Katrina, the BP oil spill, and the economic collapse, there is no hope for you.

9/11 - Blowback for decades of our actions.
Katrina - Building a city lower than sea level on the coast and hurricane hits it.
BP - Horrible controls, there are dozens of these accidents a year, however they almost are never to the size/scale of BP.
Economic collapse - Again, this has been building for decades and is not something that just happened.

Take your god is destroying America bs out of this thread please. There can be logical debate about religion but the second you start spouting off that god is destroying America, you in my eyes, have lost the right to be heard.

 

[Jeramii]

my parents don't argue religion with me anymore.

i grew up in a very very mormon household. tried to break free of religion when i was 16, so they sent me to a youth school. came back when i was 17, bs'd my religious beliefs until i was 18. after that i quit going to church my parents had a hard time with it at first.. now they just accept it.

my parents have argued religion with me only a few times in the last 3 years and usually do that smile that the op described, where they know i'm wrong. however i know they are wrong so its just a big loop of anger.

they finally gave up talking religion or politics with me. last time i visited my family i dropped a couple F-bombs at the dinner table, at my sisters boyfriend (never would do that to my parents, but my sisters boyfriend is a douche) because he was trying to convince me that fox news was a good source and that i'm an idiot for trusting anything else.

thats my rant. haha. i feel you op.

 

[MadOdorMachine]

So just because Adam and Eve didn't comply, he had to punish their kids?

Forbidden knowledge, pandoras box, whatever you want to call it - once it was achieved, there was no way to take it away. Most ancient civilizations have very similar stories to this.

Obama is a muslim right?

If you're going to sit there and tell me that you think God caused 9/11, Katrina, the BP oil spill, and the economic collapse, there is no hope for you.

9/11 - Blowback for decades of our actions.
Katrina - Building a city lower than sea level on the coast and hurricane hits it.
BP - Horrible controls, there are dozens of these accidents a year, however they almost are never to the size/scale of BP.
Economic collapse - Again, this has been building for decades and is not something that just happened.

Take your god is destroying America bs out of this thread please. There can be logical debate about religion but the second you start spouting off that god is destroying America, you in my eyes, have lost the right to be heard.

You are right in every single one of your answers. I should clarify on Gods judgement. I don't think God is doing it so much that he is allowing it to happen. Perhaps you could look at it as a divine hand of protection or a spirit looking over our country that has been lifted allowing dark, destructive forces to come in. I'm not trying to upset you, I just see things a little bit differently. I believe in God. I know that upsets a lot of people around here, but that doesn't mean we can't get along. I actually think there is a lot to learn from other religions as well, but at the end of the day I believe Jesus was God incarnate.

 

[Earthstrike]

I see the line you're trying to draw towards -

Let me start by answering your questions:

1. Yes.
2. Yes. More or less.
3. Yes, Yes.

If you're using the argument, if God is all powerful/knowing, why would he knowingly create someone with defects? Or better yet, I'll take that one step further - if, in the history of a 6,000 year earth, or 4.5 billion year old earth, whatever you want to believe, let's say there are a total of 20 billion humans who are born and have spirits. Why, then did God create 20 billion people when only 4 billion of them will be in Heaven? Doesn't sound loving, does it?

It does when you think about what those 4 billion have to offer to God. Say you love a girl, give her tons of stuff, and your everything. Then she doesn't appreciate it, and attributes it to her just being pretty and she deserves it, then she leaves you without batting an eyelash. That's pretty much how God feels about the other 16 billion people. However, those 4 billion people who are/will go to heaven are worth everything to him - worth Hell, worth Earth, worth the heartache and pain.

God is perfect. We aren't God, nor are we gods - we are created in his image, sure, but that doesn't make us able to understand everything. If God is real, and he has the power to create the earth, electron bonding and dark matter, I won't even pretend to understand how he thinks, or how moral/immoral he is. He is a jealous God, and I'll give him everything I've got.

I won't respond because I'll undoubtedly get more one liners and probably called some other internet reference to mock me, but I'll read what you have to say and chew on it.

I just wanted to say I thought it was amusing that you responded to a question, by posing your own question, and then answering your own question.

I'm sure you have an answer to why god created people with birth defects, why not just give that answer? Not that I'd really care what the answer is per se, but don't try to answer other people's questions by answering your own.

 

[Korey]

You know, from reading this it seems that some people have too much invested in religion to simply give it up after hearing rational/logical points about why they're wrong and everything they believe in is a farce.

Kind of like being four seasons into Lost...you might as well keep going at that point even if you don't want to.

 

[demosthenes]

Forbidden knowledge, pandoras box, whatever you want to call it - once it was achieved, there was no way to take it away. Most ancient civilizations have very similar stories to this.

You are right in every single one of your answers. I should clarify on Gods judgement. I don't think God is doing it so much that he is allowing it to happen. Perhaps you could look at it as a divine hand of protection or a spirit looking over our country that has been lifted allowing dark, destructive forces to come in. I'm not trying to upset you, I just see things a little bit differently. I believe in God. I know that upsets a lot of people around here, but that doesn't mean we can't get along. I actually think there is a lot to learn from other religions as well, but at the end of the day I believe Jesus was God incarnate.

One of my best friends is very religious and we get a long just fine thanks.

But to your post. Your thoughts are very similar to a wide receiver who just scored a touch down and points up to the sky thanking god. Clearly, god wanted the steelers to win and not the cardinals. Clearly, god wanted the Saints to win the super bowl last year.

What makes America so special? We're a country like any other that had a unique founding with plentiful natural resources allowing us to expand greatly. Nothing more, no divine protection. Don't take away the great achievements and the great atrocities that we as Americans have committed. I can't stand that mentality.

Again.

9/11 didn't just happen. It was carefully planned for years as a result of what we did for decades in the region. There wasn't some hand that lifted that let the terrorists get on the planes.
Katrina - Any time a class 5 hurricane hits a city that is below sea level will be nearly destroyed. We as a civilization don't have the technology to prevent this yet.
BP - Again, not even an American firm. But maybe it's just the UK trying to screw over America.
Economic collapse - So if we still had the hand of protection, you're saying that are wasteful spending/programs, horrible policies, social-economic direction for the past 20-30 years would have made everything all of a sudden better?

Like I said, we can debate religion, but if you come in here talking about some divine protection protecting a country founded hardly by strong christians (most weren't at all), then please, just stop, or rather do so but you won't get anymore responses from me on the subject.

 

[speculawyer]

My advice: Don't talk to your dad about the Bible again.

It is clear he has a lot of crazy irrational views and you will never get him to change. You will only create tension that could harm your relationship.

Perhaps many years from now you can talk about it. But leave it alone for now.

 

[JGS]

You know, from reading this it seems that some people have too much invested in religion to simply give it up after hearing rational/logical points about why they're wrong and everything they believe in is a farce.

Kind of like being four seasons into Lost...you might as well keep going at that point even if you don't want to.

Well, another opinion could be that non-religious have too much invested in some silly argument they don't believe in and refuse to let it go. The thread is basically: Guy argues with Dad, thus condemnation of ALL religious thought needed stat!:lol

Or maybe it's could be that the bulk of opinion in here actually hasn't actually proven the OP's dad wrong in the first place on the two big points!:lol

In fact, the only thing proven wrong is the OP's insistence that the earth is flat per his dad's religious beliefs...which aren't his religious beliefs!:lol

Spoiler

The entirety of LOST was awesome btw.

 

[LaserBuddha]

OP's argument was about whether or not someone meant "sphere" when they said "circle" thousands of years ago.

I propose that both the OP and his father are idiots.

 

[MadOdorMachine]

One of my best friends is very religious and we get a long just fine thanks.

But to your post. Your thoughts are very similar to a wide receiver who just scored a touch down and points up to the sky thanking god. Clearly, god wanted the steelers to win and not the cardinals. Clearly, god wanted the Saints to win the super bowl last year.

What makes America so special? We're a country like any other that had a unique founding with plentiful natural resources allowing us to expand greatly. Nothing more, no divine protection. Don't take away the great achievements and the great atrocities that we as Americans have committed. I can't stand that mentality.

Again.

9/11 didn't just happen. It was carefully planned for years as a result of what we did for decades in the region. There wasn't some hand that lifted that let the terrorists get on the planes.
Katrina - Any time a class 5 hurricane hits a city that is below sea level will be nearly destroyed. We as a civilization don't have the technology to prevent this yet.
BP - Again, not even an American firm. But maybe it's just the UK trying to screw over America.
Economic collapse - So if we still had the hand of protection, you're saying that are wasteful spending/programs, horrible policies, social-economic direction for the past 20-30 years would have made everything all of a sudden better?

Like I said, we can debate religion, but if you come in here talking about some divine protection protecting a country founded hardly by strong christians (most weren't at all), then please, just stop, or rather do so but you won't get anymore responses from me on the subject.

As far as the wide receiver goes, yes that's how I feel to a certain degree. I think it's more like God blessed that person more athletic ability than the average man and there's no reason for him not to be thankful for that. That also doesn't mean that he couldn't have worked harder than most to achieve that skill either, but to say that some people don't have God given, natural talent at something is simply not true. As far as picking a side goes, I do believe that God blesses and rewards people, but he also allows terrible things to happen to good people. Why? I have no idea. Now that is something worth debating about.

As far as America goes, I believe we have been on a slow decline yes, but things are speeding up now as we are about to transition into a new era. I'm not arguing with you at all about how this has happened. I agree with you. To say that most early Europeans weren't Christian is a bit of a stretch though. I would be interested to see the statistics on that if you have any because there were basically two camps - entrepreneurs and religious zealots.

What I'm saying is that I believe there is more to this world than meets the eye. I think science is trying to discover this. A good example is the large hadron collider and space. We need to be looking at these things on both the macro and micro level, but there's no reason science and religion can't peacefully co-exist. To me, they are one and the same - truth. That's what both should be seeking.

 

[Billen]

"Dad: So now you're doubting the Bible?"

"No dad, I believe everything written in all religious texts."

 

[Subliminal]

BP - Again, not even an American firm. But maybe it's just the UK trying to screw over America.

Ok, You're definitely retarded.

 

[NullPointer]

"Dad: So now you're doubting the Bible?"

"No dad, I believe everything written in all religious texts."

Oh nice

And remember, if your dad gets too upset just ask him to forgive you.

 

[Tears For Fears]

"Dad: So now you're doubting the Bible?"

"No dad, I believe everything written in all religious texts."

Son I am.....THRILLED!