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I really dislike the "Heroes Shouldn't Kill" trope.
- Thread starter Croatoan
- Start date
- Status
unholyrevenger72
Banned
watch Clone Wars
Meanwhile in reality;
"The man looked at me funny."
"This officer performed his duty appropriately."
Maybe comic book heroes are essential for *this* world, because we are so callous about real lives... if our fantasy culture glorifies the taking of life for 'just causes' as well... I can only imagine how much more callous we'd be about it.
Having said that... our real heroes are far better than comic book heroes. People that use their intelligence and insight to get at the real vectors of harm and figure out ways to stop them.
An example of a real life hero would be someone like John Snow... who basically figured out the whole communicable disease vector thing and whose work helped to create the modern sewage system as we know it. Like before this, cities were population negative places... there'd cause more death then new life was born out of it - and people would still rush in due to economic opportunity.
You don't need to be an improbable caped vigilante with billions at your disposal to be a real hero... only a deep and abiding respect for life that allows you to search for ways to make it better for all.
I mean... this comment might only seem tangentially related to the topic at hand at best... but the point to make is, if you really care about optimizing the amount of good you do - utility maximization theory of morality and all that... such that heroes murdering villains to maximize utility makes sense - then if follow that line of reasoning, then the most reasonable conclusion is to not engage in areas that are morally dubious, but to find the points of inefficiencies in society that are morally clear and clearly lacking and tackle those instead.
"The man looked at me funny."
"This officer performed his duty appropriately."
Maybe comic book heroes are essential for *this* world, because we are so callous about real lives... if our fantasy culture glorifies the taking of life for 'just causes' as well... I can only imagine how much more callous we'd be about it.
Having said that... our real heroes are far better than comic book heroes. People that use their intelligence and insight to get at the real vectors of harm and figure out ways to stop them.
An example of a real life hero would be someone like John Snow... who basically figured out the whole communicable disease vector thing and whose work helped to create the modern sewage system as we know it. Like before this, cities were population negative places... there'd cause more death then new life was born out of it - and people would still rush in due to economic opportunity.
You don't need to be an improbable caped vigilante with billions at your disposal to be a real hero... only a deep and abiding respect for life that allows you to search for ways to make it better for all.
I mean... this comment might only seem tangentially related to the topic at hand at best... but the point to make is, if you really care about optimizing the amount of good you do - utility maximization theory of morality and all that... such that heroes murdering villains to maximize utility makes sense - then if follow that line of reasoning, then the most reasonable conclusion is to not engage in areas that are morally dubious, but to find the points of inefficiencies in society that are morally clear and clearly lacking and tackle those instead.
gutter_trash
Banned
Professor Beef
Banned
To be fair, everyone on the Death Star was evil.
To be fair, the organization they attacked was destroying inhabited planets.
I don't. Killing sucks. Lives are precious.
If you can't keep some crazy asshole locked up in a cage because of comic book plots that's your issue.
Lol but he literally blew up something called a "Death Star" which blew up a whole planet and was about to do it again.
That said, the rebels should've just built a big space station jail/dimension and marooned the Death Star there forever a la the fantomm zomznodasd
This, though
If you can't keep some crazy asshole locked up in a cage because of comic book plots that's your issue.
Lol but he literally blew up something called a "Death Star" which blew up a whole planet and was about to do it again.
That said, the rebels should've just built a big space station jail/dimension and marooned the Death Star there forever a la the fantomm zomznodasd
This, though
The Silver
Member
How do you know, maybe that one stormtrooper was forced into the army. Maybe that other one was poor and had no other options to provide for his family.
Abinash117
Member
Sucks for that stormtrooper.
Also I like to point out OP, that typically the heroes are usually put in scenarios were they don't need to kill at all unless the story dictates it, since there's always a way for the hero to not kill a person. In Superman's case he doesn't need to kill because he is so powerful and Batman is Batman. I can't say the same if a normal person has a gun vs a villain, the person is not so privileged to try to keep the villain alive and would be stupid to expect them to. Unlike in real life or more realistic situations some people are going to get killed deserving or not. There's no other way around, for example the conflicts involving ISIS and Boko Haram .
Admiral Woofington
Member
What about the hundreds of thousands of union workers in the death star who need a good job to provide for their family and in a galaxy controlled by the Empire didn't have a choice?
Professor Beef
Banned
They knew what they were getting into when they put the uniform on.
"Any contractor working on that Death Star knew the risk involved. If they got killed, it's their own fault."
it's dumb as hell in certain situations. like the one that always gets brought up with Batman and Joker
a hero is someone that saves lives. Making that tough decision to save those lives. In real life, it's more of someone sacrificing themselves (such as stopping bomb attack)
Joker kills dozens of people -> gets locked up -> kills dozens of more people during his escape from prison -> repeat
I'm not saying Batman needs to turn into an American police officer, but at a certain point its like hey, I'm pretty much responsible for probably 10% of Gotham being dead. Maybe I should change something?
a hero is someone that saves lives. Making that tough decision to save those lives. In real life, it's more of someone sacrificing themselves (such as stopping bomb attack)
Joker kills dozens of people -> gets locked up -> kills dozens of more people during his escape from prison -> repeat
I'm not saying Batman needs to turn into an American police officer, but at a certain point its like hey, I'm pretty much responsible for probably 10% of Gotham being dead. Maybe I should change something?
King Tubby
Member
If I lived in Gotham, I would want Batman to just fucking kill the Joker already after the third time he broke out of Arkham and killed hundreds/thousands while terrorizing the entire city.
There's a difference between killing fucking Osama bin Laden squared and a petty thief.
There's a difference between killing fucking Osama bin Laden squared and a petty thief.
Jack Remington
Banned
Absolutely. Shame they could never finish Goldar.
Light was a legit hero for awhile. Dude should have just shut the operation down after learning that the police were onto him though.
Parallax
best seen in the classic "Shadow of the Beast"
Then the city of gotham should have put the joker to death a long time ago.
Abinash117
Member
But they didn't or didn't do it well so Batman should do what the city couldn't or Joker keeps killing people.
The Silver
Member
how does the guy who was forced into it "know what they were getting into"?
"Hey kid put this uniform on and report to that big "moon" in the sky or we kill you and your family, kthxbye."
"Oh thank the god the rebels are here to sav"-BOOM
BKatastrophe
Member
I find it hilarious how many people need their heroes to kill in order to be interesting. Fuck their motivations and why they have the code they have, no no, they need to kill.
I must have the shittiest tastes then, since I like characters who don't kill (Dick Grayson) as much as some who do (Black Bolt).
Then Batman would be putting himself above the city and above the law, which he firmly believes he isn't.
I must have the shittiest tastes then, since I like characters who don't kill (Dick Grayson) as much as some who do (Black Bolt).
Then Batman would be putting himself above the city and above the law, which he firmly believes he isn't.
StanleyPalmtree
Banned
personally i think heroes not killing is a good rule of thumb, but exceptions probably should be made for more extreme examples (e.g the joker having killed thousands with no signs of stopping).
Gotham really REALLY needs a better court/jailing system.
From this thread we can see that its a complicated grey area with a lot of room for discussion, hopefully more comic writers realize this too and make an effort to explore this fascinating moral minefield in the actual comics. it been done in many comics already and it almost always made for great material, would love to see more of it.
cliche one line justifications for such momentous decisions just really dont cut it.
Gotham really REALLY needs a better court/jailing system.
From this thread we can see that its a complicated grey area with a lot of room for discussion, hopefully more comic writers realize this too and make an effort to explore this fascinating moral minefield in the actual comics. it been done in many comics already and it almost always made for great material, would love to see more of it.
cliche one line justifications for such momentous decisions just really dont cut it.
shinshoryuken
Member
Batman is just an ego ridden douchebag. He got a contingency plan for the justice League is case they go rogue but he doesn't have one for when gotham screw up keeping joker locked up. He's an idiot.
StanleyPalmtree
Banned
this is going to sounds incredibly heartless, but i guess star wars is a more heartless universe than we usually realize.
basically said kid is valuing the life of his family over whole planets that are to be destroyed by the death star.
i wouldn't blame him at all and im sure i would make the same choice if i were in his shoes, but he still isnt exactly making the morally correct choice.
basically its a shity situation and said kid is fucked either way.
Abinash117
Member
He already is by being a vigilante and donning a mask to beat the living crap out of criminals. Even if we disregard my point, so? You can have many beliefs as much as you want you are putting lives on the line by letting the Joker live. Again you either kill the Joker, give him a fate as bad as death, or he kills people. Batman himself doesn't have to be the one, but any other hero would be in a same position.
Unknown Soldier
Member
If the Heroes killed all the Villains, there wouldn't be a whole lot to do anymore after that. It would probably be kind of boring.
Anti-heroes are far more interesting than standard heroes
I have nothing against this kind of hero if it is consistent with their other moral choices. IE. they show a preference for non-violence in all situations.
Batman doesn't fit into that though, as he is perfectly willing to beat people up and torture them for information and do all kinds of heinous shit like use people's cell phones to spy on everyone to catch the Joker, which all seem to me to be worse things morally speaking than justifiable homicide in self defense or defense of others.
The only viable excuse if that Batman is broken, so he must save the broken to give himself hope, but really that just seems like justification after the fact.
Batman doesn't fit into that though, as he is perfectly willing to beat people up and torture them for information and do all kinds of heinous shit like use people's cell phones to spy on everyone to catch the Joker, which all seem to me to be worse things morally speaking than justifiable homicide in self defense or defense of others.
The only viable excuse if that Batman is broken, so he must save the broken to give himself hope, but really that just seems like justification after the fact.
Cameron122
Member
If I had super powers I wouldn't kill regular people but I would straight up murk other supes
Unknown Soldier
Member
I'm pretty sure that would make you a super villain bro
Cameron122
Member
LIKE UPPER CUT INTO THE SUN TYPE SHIT
BKatastrophe
Member
He knows that he's operating outside the law, but that's exactly WHY he doesn't kill. It's exactly WHY he only captures criminals, and doesn't go beyond that. He's already operating outside the law. If you take the interpretation where he believes he's a symbol for others, then what would that say about him just killing people? That it's okay for people to operate outside the law and kill whenever they feel necessary? That's good, strong logic right there. Hey, also, how does it sound if you kill someone who can be rehabilitated, but didn't bother trying? That doesn't sound like a form of cold-blooded apathy to you? Rehabilitated criminals are thing, and it's also happened within comic books. Check out what Killer Croc's been doing. Last thing I checked (Batman Eternal and Red Hood and the Outlaws) he was just chilling in the sewers, creating a community while also going to addiction support groups.
But hey, fuck that guy, am I right? I get that you're all fixated on Batman's situation with the Joker, but Snyder's Batman run has had a pretty fair heading on that point (though status quo is damning it to hell). It's been pointed out how fucked Bruce is when it comes to Joker, but there's also been a lot of other good Batman has done and good headway that he's made by intervening in the criminal careers of other, well, criminals.
But whatever. I'm just blowing it out my ass, I guess. Something something only heroes/anti-heroes who kill are interesting. Fuck all other attempts to write interesting characters who don't, because they won't be interesting unless they do.
Parallax
best seen in the classic "Shadow of the Beast"
gotham should be able to deal with its containment issues. it sure as hell isnt able to deal with a mind wiped/controlled/flipped version of superman, wonder woman, martian manhunter or the flash. i dont like that he has contingencies for his friends, but i can at least understand why hed have them for genocide factors over jail security
tell em. you cant rehabilitate villains if you dont try. and its clearly not happening in gotham
Batman's villains only escape regularly because it wouldn't make much sense to write new villains for every issue. "Realistically" a few of his villains should be reformed by now and the rest in medical care because they're just people with mental problems.
Comics did explore this change of the no-killing rule in the grimdark era. I think some of the best of it was in the trio of Stormwatch TPBs that ended in the Change or Die album. You had militarized superheroes acting for UN with a leader that started going nuts with his license to kill. That led to Authority which was hilarious (and also a story about why people whose only skills are killing people in massive amounts shouldn't really run the planet). I mean they pre-emptively killed an entire country.
The chilling part is that after reading a pile of these stories it's really easy to start arguing for killing of people for convenience's sake and soon you'll end up as a Mark Millar character.
About as long as they're rare. Once you've seen a few, you've seen them all.
Comics did explore this change of the no-killing rule in the grimdark era. I think some of the best of it was in the trio of Stormwatch TPBs that ended in the Change or Die album. You had militarized superheroes acting for UN with a leader that started going nuts with his license to kill. That led to Authority which was hilarious (and also a story about why people whose only skills are killing people in massive amounts shouldn't really run the planet). I mean they pre-emptively killed an entire country.
The chilling part is that after reading a pile of these stories it's really easy to start arguing for killing of people for convenience's sake and soon you'll end up as a Mark Millar character.
About as long as they're rare. Once you've seen a few, you've seen them all.
What I tend to dislike is the idea that Heroes or Super Heroes should be relatable to be considered good characters. I have always felt that a Hero or Super Hero should be the type of person you would aspire to be but would probably never full be able to reach.
Its why Superman has always been my favorite character because in my mind he is the quintessential Super Hero he's the one who will always try to make the best choice for everyone involved even if it could hurt or kill himself in the process. He stands for truth and justice (thought those concepts can be entirely subjective for different people) and he will always put others before himself even if he is saving a bad guy he knows it's not his place to play judge jury and executioner.
I get so tired of the Brooding "realistic" hero because usually all that means is that they are an asshole who occasionally does the right thing when it suits them. I respect when a character with immense power is able to restrain themselves from using it dominate and is able to focus it to lift others around them.
Its why Superman has always been my favorite character because in my mind he is the quintessential Super Hero he's the one who will always try to make the best choice for everyone involved even if it could hurt or kill himself in the process. He stands for truth and justice (thought those concepts can be entirely subjective for different people) and he will always put others before himself even if he is saving a bad guy he knows it's not his place to play judge jury and executioner.
I get so tired of the Brooding "realistic" hero because usually all that means is that they are an asshole who occasionally does the right thing when it suits them. I respect when a character with immense power is able to restrain themselves from using it dominate and is able to focus it to lift others around them.
The Silver
Member
All I'm saying is, I'd rather live under Dr.Doom than under the protection of Batman.
Regular Doom, not God Doom, god Doom lets zombies, ultrons and giant bugs run rampant cause he's god and doesn't think he should interfere with mortals unless he's directly fucked with.
Regular Doom, not God Doom, god Doom lets zombies, ultrons and giant bugs run rampant cause he's god and doesn't think he should interfere with mortals unless he's directly fucked with.
Marvel
could never
I'll have to check this out.Absolution does.
Dude starts killing major villains, then works his way down, and finds it becomes easier and easier. Even the ones that surrender
Batman has apprehended the Joker multiple times, but because he doesn't execute this obviously mentally ill criminal on the spot, he's somehow responsible for any subsequent lives the Joker takes? How you gonna put that on Batman? What about the rest of society? What's their responsibility?
Also, what a great message to in instil in people. "Kill anyone you personally deem evil, it's the truly heroic thing to do."
You sound like Donald Trump, OP.
Also, what a great message to in instil in people. "Kill anyone you personally deem evil, it's the truly heroic thing to do."
You sound like Donald Trump, OP.
I don't really understand the mentality that it's silly to not kill "bad guys". Way to often thinking you know best who is worthy to kill and who is not, especially once your killcount isn't one or two but hundreds, your status as a morally good person is very murky.
Are comics often horribly written? Yes, that's true for both the "no kill" and the "kill all the bad guys" heroes. In the latter, the consequences of killing someone are often conveniently completely ignored. That's not great storytelling either.
And the main reason it comes off as silly in stuff like batman is because economics demand that the joker an co. are recurring villains. We'd have bullshit escapes and "there was no body" instead of them escaping Arkham if Batman would kill.
Are comics often horribly written? Yes, that's true for both the "no kill" and the "kill all the bad guys" heroes. In the latter, the consequences of killing someone are often conveniently completely ignored. That's not great storytelling either.
And the main reason it comes off as silly in stuff like batman is because economics demand that the joker an co. are recurring villains. We'd have bullshit escapes and "there was no body" instead of them escaping Arkham if Batman would kill.
Langdon Alger
Banned
Agree with OP. What's really annoying is the idea that, for example, Batman killing The Joker would make him just as bad as The Joker. As if killing a multi-murderer is remotely the same thing as killing hundreds of innocent people.
SonicX_Zero
Member
I really enjoyed this aspect of Emiya Kiritsugu in Fate/Zero because he makes sure not to involve civilians but doesn't hesitate when it comes to killing the the target and get the job done, but then again he could hardly be called a hero with that shit he pulled off against Kayneth.lol
The thing is, when your villain is a demigod that can kill 4000 people with a fart, it's sort of pointless to apply real life parameters.
When these stories pretend to be able to force a moral allegory, as if Batman and Joker dynamic could really say something about the concept of death penalty, it gets weird.
Then again, seeing people who wronged (to whatever degree) as "villains", is something older than comic books.
Parallax
best seen in the classic "Shadow of the Beast"
he really isnt
timetokill
Banned
Well, he's the hero Gotham deserves
Pretty sure that's Batman.
ReplacementPelican
Member
I have to wonder if it's mostly Americans in states with the death penalty that feel this way. I really think that in most places where criminals aren't killed by the state the idea of a hero executing criminals with no jurisdictional oversight is a bit weird.
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