Wrestlemania
Banned
I'm still shocked that people actually consider the Galaxy games to be "open".
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I really don't like Mario 3D World
- Thread starter sazzy
- Start date
Riposte
Member
A thread like this seems to be more about comparing ideal versions in people's heads. Take a look at all the excuses being laid out for SM64 when some analysis comes into play.
PeakPointMatrix
Member
Err, is this true or just your assumpsion? When have they stated this? Genuinely curious about 64's development.
entremet
Member
Same here.
Whogie
Member
I don't like it either, and the Galaxy games were among my favorite games.
The parkour feels incredibly rigid and unreliable. Side-flips barely move you an inch. Running and backflips require charging. Long jumps barely cover any more ground than a running jump. It's just feels so neutered.
I hate that if you often have to start the level again if you miss something. Missed the top of the flag pole? Gonna' have to do the whole level again for another chance. Got hit and lost your cat suit? Start the level again if you want that green star. Losing suits when getting hit just makes me play very cautiously.
The parkour feels incredibly rigid and unreliable. Side-flips barely move you an inch. Running and backflips require charging. Long jumps barely cover any more ground than a running jump. It's just feels so neutered.
I hate that if you often have to start the level again if you miss something. Missed the top of the flag pole? Gonna' have to do the whole level again for another chance. Got hit and lost your cat suit? Start the level again if you want that green star. Losing suits when getting hit just makes me play very cautiously.
I think people put too much emphasis on the exploration part of 64 when comparing these games. The important thing is how the levels are constructed, and what the developer is asking you to do.
In 3D Land (and I'm assuming in World; I've only played the demo) you're one and only objective is to get to the end of the level. So it makes sense to design most of the stages to shuffle players along a predetermined path; hence, stages that are literally 2D, or doing they're best to simulate it.
The rest of the 3D games, up to and including Galaxy, are nominally about collecting stars, but what they're really about is completing platforming objectives.
Here's some examples from the Galaxy games:
(Galaxy 1 Desert)
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=M8t5Bf35-PE#t=20m24s
(Galaxy 2 Chompworks)
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ty-klUkjtLY#t=4m45s
(Galaxy 1 First Level)
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=D_yhqpWSo-8#t=5m36s
(Galaxy 2 Clockworks)
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_kG26D44NiA#t=3m04s
In none of those clips are you simply moving from A to B. There's nothing linear about them. Clockworks is especially interesting because it's non-linear and yet essentially 2D, in an interesting reversal from what you'd expect.
None of these clips are from the more wide open, '64 like' levels from Galaxy. They take place within levels that are not wide open, that have you continually moving forward. But the key is that forward movement through the course is constantly broken up into two or three distinct sections, which allows Nintendo to incorporate a little bit of Mario 64 into the overall level.
Now, Galaxy 1 and 2 obviously have a lot of linear sections as well. But the clips above, where the game hews closely to its 3D Mario roots, are sections I enjoyed a lot precisely because of that. At a minimum, they add variety to the game with parts that more closely mimic the gameplay of 64 and Sunshine.
In other words, these parts of the game make a good use of three dimensions (save for clockworks), in implementing a non-linear platforming objective, that the player can complete creatively (ie, using Mario's core abilities to maneuver through the level in non-obvious ways).
To me, that's the essence of Mario 64, and it has nothing to do with exploring. It's about designing challenges that don't have you simply moving from left to right, A to B. The challenges should be a lot more interesting than that.
It's not even close, the Galaxies are much better(and more epic) games.
SM3DW is more in the vein of the NSMB series in the Mario Universe, rather than the 3D Mario games(64, Sunshine, Galaxies).
Freezie KO
Banned
It is amazing to me that after 2 NSMB games on Wii U in the first 8 months, they thought their best bet for a robust software library was to make their 3D Mario game play as close to the NSMB games as they could get it.
It's like they completely forgot that people valued diversity in a software library.
1 NSMB game
Mango The Magician
Banned
I agree with everything. The game is good but the team can do much better, just look at the Galaxies.
EDIT: Lol I didn't realize this thread was 10 pages long. :S
If you value 3D platforming, 3D World is about as good as it gets. The highs of Galaxy and Mario64/Sunshine compare but 3D World is much more consistent with promoting platforming over other actions.
Goodness. Maybe that 2d Mario theory was right. The stuff you're complaining about is solid, classic Mario design man.
Freezie KO
Banned
The three green stars (star coins, basically) weren't introduced until NSMB, and gold flag poles were brought to the table from 3D Land. I don't remember any of that collectathon stuff in SMB1, 2, or 3.
Boss Man
Member
That's just like, your opinion man
Haunted
Member
Great analysis. Galaxy is in a completely different league from 3D World or any other Mario platformer (2D or 3D) of the last 15 years.
I can't even fathom how you would think that. Even getting all the green stars and stamps and the top of the flagpole can usually be done on the first or second try 99% of the levels. Only some of the levels in world 10 and onwards even start presenting a challenge. I love the game, but a good difficulty curve isn't one of its strengths. I think 3D World is one of the easiest Mario platformers out there.
Solid Samus
Banned
yup. I also don't see what's so bad about 3D World's 'collectathon' mechanics. What makes them terrible? I mean they're optional and often reward player skill and reaction time - and they're not so different from the silver star/star bit collections that cropped up in like half of Galaxy (and in magnitudes far exceeding 3D World in every single other 3D Mario game, including Galaxy 2) other than that they're in every map
Solid Samus
Banned
It's not the hardest Mario game but Galaxy sticks out in my mind as having been by far the easiest Mario game I've ever played. As fun as it was
Yoshi Coins in SMW.
Made even more obvious with the Advance version where you even got a special ending for collecting them all.
TheRedSnifit
Member
SMW had Dragon Coins, 64 had Red Coins, and Galaxy 2 had green stars (which were even more obnoxious, since they're literally half the game and venture very deep into "fake difficulty" territory). And you've been awarded for hitting the top of the flagpole since the original SMB.
Naw man, Galaxy 1 and 3D Land are way, way easier than World.
Solid Samus
Banned
the source of his complaints aren't even the (optional) collectables, though. It's that if he fails a jump or a tricky sequence or isn't careful about keeping his powerup he's punished for it. Which is like, yeah, okay? And you don't even need the golden flagpoles or all of the stamps except to unlock one stage iirc. At least you can collect many of them through the course of the main game as opposed to the closest applicable example - Galaxy 2 in which the entire post game is segmented off into 120 more stars that serve the exact same function as these collectables except are twice as blatant as padding and have literally the same payoff
a lot of Mario games have collection aspects; hell I think it took me less time to collect all of the green stars in World's first 8 worlds than it did for me to hunt down 100 coins in Snowman's Land as a kid
And the idea cropped up again in Yoshi's Island with its flowers that were required for 100% completion and generally required passing some extra challenge. Certainly isn't NSMB's idea in any case.
As for flag poles, the idea of an extra platforming challenge to hit the top dates straight back to SMB1. They're just tracking it now.
8-bit Hero
Banned
I have played them all and they are really bad. Sunshine is superior.
Whogie
Member
I actually enjoy getting the green stars. They make the stages more interesting by adding a bit of platforming challenge and making you keep your eyes peeled for secret areas.
But yes, I am complaining about the HP system. Especially because the platforming isn't as tight as it has been in the past.
Which theory? I've grown up with Mario, but the series didn't really click for me until the 3D games. So if it's that most people who enjoy the 3D World tend to enjoy the 2D games, maybe so.
But yes, I am complaining about the HP system. Especially because the platforming isn't as tight as it has been in the past.
Which theory? I've grown up with Mario, but the series didn't really click for me until the 3D games. So if it's that most people who enjoy the 3D World tend to enjoy the 2D games, maybe so.
Weilthain
Banned
Hate to break it to you, but it sounds like you are both just bad at the game. Either that or you weren't playing as a team.
I make sure to play at my wife's slower pace so I wasn't having problems with either of us bubbling.if I'd wanted to I could make the game unplayable for her by running ahead all the time.
The levels are fantastic, full of joy and cleverness. And you friends can play too. Not some bullshit tacked on 2 player mode, they can just play. No separate modes, no sacrifices to the core gameplay.
Just seamless multilayer.
The multiplayer is "amazing" because the game is amazing. (Dumb thing to say but maybe somebody will get what I mean by that)
I am gushing over this game ATM, butgoddamit this is a 30 yr old nintendo kids dream come true. It brings back the "mario " that was lost in the 3d games.
Bouncing on heads, power ups out the ass, more presise controls. PICKING UP KOOPA SHELLS its all here. And you friends can play too.
I need to lie down
This is my feels.
castlemadeofsand
Banned
It's an awesome game. It's a classic 2d mario brought to 3d with added excellent multiplayer
It was one NSMB game. But I think they went that route because the 2D Mario's vastly outsell the 3D ones, despite the much greater critical acclaim of the latter in recent years.
Guess Nintendo thought the Galaxy series was too hardcore for their target audience. A shame, because Galaxy has much better mechanics IMO.
entremet
Member
Yoshi's Island
stars, which is HP basically and red coins and flowers. Way more than 3DWorld and YI is one of the best games ever.
there are three particular choices that leave this impression: no time limit, no flagpole and 3D. Of course they're not open, but the absence of such things is enough to not make the player feel as playing inside a box as it is in 3D World/Land, imo. I don't necessarly agree with it because it's a faulty premise, but not without some truth here and there
Kai Dracon
Writing a dinosaur space opera symphony
The Yoshi's Island "scoring" meta game is not really a collectathon in the way that is typically used - like hunting up 100 baubles just because. It's more about level mastery. The star coins / challenge coins / green stars in NSMB, Galaxy 2, and 3D Land / World are the same. There's not nearly enough of them to count as a collectathon by the standards of collection games. They're an indication that you've blown a level out, especially since in more advanced stages in all those games, their placement is visible and obvious - but hard to get to.
By comparison, Donkey Kong Country Returns commits IMO a bit more of the genuine sin of collectathon design. The puzzle pieces that just unlock gallery stuff really are superfluous (whereas the KONG letters are all placed in challenging places that demand you prove you've got a degree of skill and level knowledge.)
In point of fact I have wished for a return of the full Yoshi's Island level grading system. For me it's the best in a Nintendo platformer but they've never really fully embraced it again.
So this topic went to shit because people didn't like hearing someone criticize 3D World?
God damn, it is not gods gift to man, the fact that people say wait til you get over 75% done with it says something.
The game is not bad but it felt like a compilation of flirtation with a bunch of concepts, never being fully implemented. Even the characters themselves flirt with their abilities. Honestly the game sacrificed a lot for the sake of making it multiplayer friendly.
Mario in 64, Galaxy and even Sunshine has more depth in mechanics than the entire cast of 3D World combined. I spent too much time in 3D World wishing I was playing a Mario 3D platform like the previously mentioned.
God damn, it is not gods gift to man, the fact that people say wait til you get over 75% done with it says something.
The game is not bad but it felt like a compilation of flirtation with a bunch of concepts, never being fully implemented. Even the characters themselves flirt with their abilities. Honestly the game sacrificed a lot for the sake of making it multiplayer friendly.
Mario in 64, Galaxy and even Sunshine has more depth in mechanics than the entire cast of 3D World combined. I spent too much time in 3D World wishing I was playing a Mario 3D platform like the previously mentioned.
TheRedSnifit
Member
This topic went to shit because the OP's reasoning was stupid. "This game could've been mobile if it weren't for the graphics" is listed as a downside, as though 90% of games couldn't be mobile with a visual hit. There's no mention of the level design, and the closest he ever gets to criticizing the actual gameplay is "I don't like the run button" and "I couldn't figure out how to adjust the camera".
entremet
Member
I agree with you, which is why I don't get FreezieKO's collectathon complaints.
TheSpaceBetween
Member
To me it is the best Mario game since Galaxy and a return to form for EAD Tokyo. I was underwhelmed by Galaxy 2 and 3D Land. But opinions are opinions.
Time limits in Mario games are bullshit and part of the reason I hate 2d Mario. It's some lazy mechanic to get me to replay a level because you can't get everything on one run in the time provided.
Do you also think points are an archaic relic that should be purged from games
Night_Trekker
Member
I want to give you shit for your thread title, but at least you didn't say, "anyone else agree?"
Freezie KO
Banned
One poster mentioned the green stars and gold flag pole. Dr.Hadji implied that poster didn't play the early games in the series because all that stuff was in the "classic" games. I was disputing that claim as none of the three Super Mario Bros games on NES had these mechanics. SMW nor the spin-off Yoshi's Island change my view of that.
Only on some occasions have I ever felt rushed to get to the finish, and usually the reason for my tardiness was I was screwing around. The only levels where time made collecting stuff difficult was in levels where you have to get clocks to keep going or the mystery houses where one mistake will leave you out of time. Those were tricky but isn't that the point?
Silent_Ocarina
Member
I think he's just trying to find ways to equate Super Mario 3D World with the New Super Mario Bros. series. The Star Coin=Green Star notion is something he's mentioned several times before.
Anyway, I finally got to sink my teeth into the game today, and it's wonderful. I could easily find things I didn't like. The controls feel too stiff compared to Galaxy. Your jumps have little momentum to them. Multiplayer can get frustrating if players don't cooperate. I suppose the game does reuse concepts introduced in previous games. But I'm having too much of a blast to care. It's just really fun to play this with someone. I am having more fun with this game than I did with Galaxy, but I acknowledge that not everyone can play with others. Still, I have to wonder why people think the level design had been neutered to compensate for multiplayer. Sure, the camera angles are different, and there aren't any insane gravity mechanics as far as I know, but there are clearly levels which are quite difficult to complete with multiple players.
Freezie KO
Banned
It's fine if you like the mechanic, but are you actually disputing this?
The Green Stars are replacement for the Star Coins, which were present in 3D Land (of which this game is a direct sequel). Mario also had never had these three collectible coins prior to NSMB , and then they made their way into 3D Land. And the developers have made it abundantly clear in Iwata Asks and other interviews that this series is supposed to combine NSMB with the 3D games. You can't possibly be arguing that the Green Stars are not the equivalent of the 3 Star Coins from NSMB, can you?