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I really wish driving game AI was better

While this is probably true of other genres (fighting games for one), I'm really struggling to see improvements in driving game AI. I've been playing driving games for years and the same traits exist in SO many driving games, it's as if developers are sharing/re-using the same fundamental logic over and over.

As an example, if you set a low level of AI in a racing game, something that should mimic a novice driver. You will almost certainly see;


  1. A driver who can get the power down perfectly in a high powered, difficult to drive car, even in wet conditions.
  2. A driver who can brake without ever locking the wheels, regardless of terrain/ABS
  3. A driver who can drive a difficult to drive car (let's say an old muscle car) just as well as they can drive a sedate modern car, like a Fiat 500.
  4. A driver who is not impacted by poor visibility/weather whatsoever (you're putting yourself at a serious disadvantage to the AI by using in-car viewpoints, especially in road/open world races)
  5. A driver who very rarely, if ever, leaves the track/crashes
  6. A driver who doesn't maintain a human-like, consistent pace through certain type of bends. Bizarrely, AI seem to be very slow in quick S-bends. This results in the player not being able to give 100% near the back of the car in front for fear of smashing into them when they brake excessively in a weird place

As cars get more powerful, more difficult to drive and the conditions/visibility drops, the AI gain more inhuman ability and the odds swing vastly in their favour.

Oh and don't get me started on rubber-banding. You can have games with a multitude of difficulty options and assists, and yet I can't turn off the rubber-banding.



I get it, AI coding is costly and time consuming but come on, where are the improvements? I want to feel like I'm racing humans, not robotic drones.
 
I like the rallycross AI in Dirt Rally (maybe in Dirt 4 as well) who have almost no awareness of the player and whose cars are much heavier than yours (or on loose rails) so they can easily push you off course while you have to work hard to do the same to them.
 
I like the AI in Dirt Rally (and probably Dirt 4 as well) who have almost no awareness of the player and whose cars are much heavier than yours (or on loose rails) so they can easily push you off course while you have to work hard to do the same to them.
Yeah, that's another common trait. Not reacting to impacts in the same way. Also, which is quite odd, when you touch the rear bumper of a lot of AI they will kinda freak out and put the brakes on dragging your speed right down.
 
Been a while since I played it, but unless they fixed it, the AI in Horizon 3 had supernatural corner handling skills. Still a fun game, but it discouraged me from raising the difficultly too much.
 
AI in modern driving games:

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I really miss NFS: Porsche, you could beat enemies by 3-4 minutes in the early stages of career mode when cars were slower.
 
Been a while since I played it, but unless they fixed it, the AI in Horizon 3 had supernatural corner handling skills. Still a fun game, but it discouraged me from raising the difficultly too much.
The AI in FH3 is a complete mess imo. The game cannot balance the difficulty at all. You just can't get a consistent difficulty. Only certain types of cars are competitive because of how the PI system works.
 
Drivatar AI is is stupid. Sometimes it's impossible to win even if you drive perfectly and other times you'll be way ahead with ease.
 
Drivatar AI is is stupid. Sometimes it's impossible to win even if you drive perfectly and other times you'll be way ahead with ease.
It's because all the bad, inhuman traits of driving game AI are amplified under certain conditions. If you have a race that's in powerful RWD cars, in poor visibility and slippery conditions, you're at a massive disadvantage to the AI. Conversely, a low powered car with lots of traction and good conditions is almost certainly more equal. If you want to win night/wet street races in FH3 for example, take a low group 4WD car (Audi S1 for example) and tune it to the top of its group with engine mods.

Many racing games have their difficulty tuned with chase-cam in mind and all the extra visibility that comes with an external view. Try getting all the stars in Driveclub through some of the really bad visibility tracks while in cockpit view.
 
I remember NFS 2 having rubberbanding. Did they take it out for Porsche?

If it was in it either wasn't working properly or it was very...elastic. As I said, early in the game you could win by 3-4 minutes and even later if you caused someone to crash they'd come in way behind (1 min+) the pack.

The game overall felt head and shoulders above other NFS games, almost like it tried to be something different (which it succeeded at). Car upgrades were meaningful and Factory Driver mode is to this day the most fun I've had in a racing game.

I still have nightmares from trying to control Carrera RS 2.7 on Zone Industrielle though lol. Or any track really, that thing was a beast.
 
Why do racing games have rubber banding anyway? What's the justification for such a hated practice?
So players can catch up to the pack when they screw up without having to restart the race OR to prevent players from pulling ahead of the crowd and getting bored out in front. Why these need to exist in a game with tuneable difficulty settings and rewind features I do not know.
 
Why do racing games have rubber banding anyway? What's the justification for such a hated practice?

Because close races are fun races, and without adjusting the opposition to how fast or how slow the player is going, it's all but impossible to get something that isn't a one-sided drubbing.
 
So players can catch up to the pack when they screw up without having to restart the race OR to prevent players from pulling ahead of the crowd and getting bored out in front. Why these need to exist in a game with tuneable difficulty settings and rewind features I do not know.

Sumo Digital explained it once in a Steam Post for All Stars Racing Transformed by stating it's done in order to keep the race exciting.

The issue is that it's a lot easier to code an AI that drives perfectly and makes no mistakes/never misses a shot than it is to code one that makes mistakes like players will do.

So they have to code them to be dumber, miss some shots, don't take some turns properly, all in interest of creating an exciting race, and that includes speeding up cars further behind because while the pack with you is never faster than you, cars further behind definitely do so they can catch up and bring about some clutch moments even with artifical stupidity.
 
I just hate how in all of the sum style games I've played the AI brake way too early for some corners but then can unfeasibly take turns you know you simply can't.

I don't know how they program AI but too me it feels like they should sit down groups of ordinary players of different levels,, see how they tackle different tracks, and even track how they get better the more practice they have, and plug all that into the model. So much of the behaviour feels too arbitrary and for god's sake, especially at more novice levels, give different drivers different traits so it's not a procession of slow robots taking the same lines..

I do hope GT Sport can get online right and weed out the trolls for people like me. Real racing against human opponents is so much better but it rarely has happened for me. Also lag needs to be basically non existent as soon as things get tight.
 
This pretty much sums up why I am excited by what Gran Turismo Sport is trying to do, and it's also why I love Dirt Rally so much I think. AI in racing games simply isn't that good. I've been playing a lot of F1 2016 recently and the AI in that game is a lot better than it was in previous iterations and yet it simply doesn't feel like it's playing the same game as you in lots of scenarios, particularly wet conditions. From one track to another they seem unbelievably fast and laughably slow. There are corners where they are so fast I can 't follow them and other corners where they are so slow I cut several tenths out of them every lap. They are more aggressive than they used to be, but, they are still pretty poor at overtaking and if I'm ever in front of quicker cars they end up in a massive train behind me because, even if I don't defend, they can't find a way around you without a massive pace advantage. They are, despite all this, towards the better end of AI in racing games.

If Polyphony can produce a game focused on online racing and the sport of motorracing, and if, most importantly, they manage to separate the respectful racers from the rammers and cheats, I will be in love. I'm skeptical as to whether they can do it, admittedly, but I'm glad to see they are trying.
 
This is the biggest reason to me that online racing is my go-to 99.9% of the time. You will certainly encounter people who want to ruin your fun, but in the more serious racing games, people tend to be more invested and make an effort to race cleaner.

I've played so many racing games at this point that I've pretty much given up on AI that feels like a real person in a car. It just doesn't cut it.

The most egregious case to me is the way that the AI either slows down too much in a braking zone or goes too slowly through a corner. It's very rare that it's the other way around.
 
Why is it? That statement doesn't make any sense. You're saying it's impossible to make AI behave like a human driver.

The two things are almost entirely orthogonal. I agree that there so much more that could be done with regards to AI in racing games to make them appear more human, but that's a separate issue to making AI opponents provide an appropriate level of challenge for the player.

Whether you slow down an AI opponent by making him apply the power too fast after a turn or by making him drive at 90% of the optimal speed round a corner is just an implementation detail.
 
Complex AI takes up a lot of CPU power and takes up a lot of dev time. There is also very little upside to spending time/CPU on advanced AI because you can't show off the AI in a screenshot to help sell the game. You might be able to entice some core gamers by showing off the AI in live demos and stuff, but your average gamer will not care nearly as much. With machine learning getting bigger, it might help, but you still have the issue of consoles having weak CPUs.
 
I really wish game AI in general was better. It's unfortunate how little it seems to evolve.

You don't realize how much devs pull back on their AI to make them purposefully easier for the player.

Smart AI would make most games that require killing 100s of enemies way too difficult.

There are multiple press interviews and presentations at GDCs from devs such as Naughty Dog, Bungie, etc. that discuss their how their player testing of different AI mechanics make them less fun to fight

Like the perception of many players of "smart ai" is not necessarily "smart" but just harder. So giving enemies more health actually makes many players *believe* they are fighting a "smarter" enemy. Simple things like enemies sending your grenade back to you (Call of Duty, Hunters in Halo 5) or stealing your health packs (Bioshock) make AI SEEM very smart to the player even though there performing relatively simple commands, but acting with abilities that the player has.

Yet we have actual driverless cars. There's technology there waiting to be leveraged.

What? No. Driverless cars are taking analogue information such as pedestrian movement, car movement, traffic, signs, etc. and converting it to a system their software can understand and react to. AI in games don't need to do this, all of that information is already available to the underlying systems. All the AI in games need to do is the last step, do something meaningful to the player/driver with that information. In driverless cars, it is trying to act like a safety-first mode of transportation. In racing games, you want them to act varied with different personalities (aggressive, safe, etc.) to replicate how a variety of other players act.
 
Why is it? That statement doesn't make any sense. You're saying it's impossible to make AI behave like a human driver.

In a typical driving game you have 3 laps before the race is over.

If the human makes a mistake on a corner and drops say 2 seconds you would have a lap and a half to catch up and pass AI - in a real race you have ~ 65 laps.

Lastly most games have you start at the back, if whilst you were cutting through traffic the front runners zoomed off into the distance to build a 10 second lead how would you make that up in 3 laps if the AI was even competitive.

In order to keep this trope of starting at the back and winning in 3 laps then the AI must be slow enough to be passed and when you are catching the top drivers then speed up to give you a challenge or else its too easy.
 
In order to keep this trope of starting at the back and winning in 3 laps then the AI must be slow enough to be passed and when you are catching the top drivers then speed up to give you a challenge or else its too easy.
That's why starting at the back with a win being the requirement will always lead to a frustrating race. The AI are going to have to be way slower than the player for them to have a chance of getting first.
 
I don't know how they program AI but too me it feels like they should sit down groups of ordinary players of different levels,, see how they tackle different tracks, and even track how they get better the more practice they have, and plug all that into the model. So much of the behaviour feels too arbitrary and for god's sake, especially at more novice levels, give different drivers different traits so it's not a procession of slow robots taking the same lines..

That's basically the concept behind how drivatars work. Pre-Forza 5 they had generic pre-trained model(s) that shipped on the disc, and since FM5 they've been uploading actual player data to process in the cloud to produce "personalized" AI that's supposed to mimic individual players.

The problem with this approach is that A) the amount of data they get is still limited, and can't account for everything, and B) "ordinary players" drive like fucking assholes and C) they're still using the "start at the back of the grid and claw your way to a podium finish in a handful of laps" model, which means the AI has to be unnaturally slowed down in order for the player to complete the race successfully, which just amplifies the flaws.
 
Complex AI takes up a lot of CPU power and takes up a lot of dev time. There is also very little upside to spending time/CPU on advanced AI because you can't show off the AI in a screenshot to help sell the game. You might be able to entice some core gamers by showing off the AI in live demos and stuff, but your average gamer will not care nearly as much. With machine learning getting bigger, it might help, but you still have the issue of consoles having weak CPUs.

I do think that it's a shame that A.I. hasn't gotten significantly better as consoles got more powerful. I realize that it's hard to show off that sort of thing in a screenshot, but I've been holding out hope for years that A.I. would see huge advancements with more powerful hardware. Not even just in terms opponent A.I., either. There are so many things that you could apply improved A.I. to in order to create a more interesting game play experience. I'd love to see horror games adapt to how a player plays in order to exploit his/her weaknesses and fears, for example.
 
Been playing dirt rally rally cross the last couple of weeks, what I enjoy there is that the AI can actually make some misstakes like crashing. Although it only happens 1 out of 10 games. Hoping F1 2017 have some good AI in store for us
 
So better AI in this case means one that plays worse and is artificially given arbitrary human limitations? It's not really a case of wanting "better" AI so much as "more human-like" AI then
 
I played Forza 6 for the first time last weekend, and I was very happy that in the opening qualifier I didn't get gold in all 3 races. I really felt like I needed a near perfect run to get to first and I really appreciated that. Idk how the game spans out long term, but if I ever win a race by more than a few seconds I am disappointed.

I cannot remember a racing game since 90's-00's NFS on PC that had AI that really challenged me.

I would love an entire racing game, where I never got 1st place, I would be so happy.
 
An excellent example of where driving game AI falls apart, OP. And I too notice the bizarre slowness through S-bends at low difficulties. The worst is when it starts raining and you know the AI has suddenly gained a massive advantage on you because it simply doesn't affect them. The difficulty should come with dealing with the rain and lack of grip, not dealing with AI that appears immune to it.

So better AI in this case means one that plays worse and is artificially given arbitrary human limitations? It's not really a case of wanting "better" AI so much as "more human-like" AI then

In a driving game, surely better AI and more human-like AI are the same thing? AI that is less proficient at the game can absolutely be 'better'.
 
While this is probably true of other genres (fighting games for one), I'm really struggling to see improvements in driving game AI. I've been playing driving games for years and the same traits exist in SO many driving games, it's as if developers are sharing/re-using the same fundamental logic over and over.

As an example, if you set a low level of AI in a racing game, something that should mimic a novice driver. You will almost certainly see;


  1. A driver who can get the power down perfectly in a high powered, difficult to drive car, even in wet conditions.
  2. A driver who can brake without ever locking the wheels, regardless of terrain/ABS
  3. A driver who can drive a difficult to drive car (let's say an old muscle car) just as well as they can drive a sedate modern car, like a Fiat 500.
  4. A driver who is not impacted by poor visibility/weather whatsoever (you're putting yourself at a serious disadvantage to the AI by using in-car viewpoints, especially in road/open world races)
  5. A driver who very rarely, if ever, leaves the track/crashes
  6. A driver who doesn't maintain a human-like, consistent pace through certain type of bends. Bizarrely, AI seem to be very slow in quick S-bends. This results in the player not being able to give 100% near the back of the car in front for fear of smashing into them when they brake excessively in a weird place

As cars get more powerful, more difficult to drive and the conditions/visibility drops, the AI gain more inhuman ability and the odds swing vastly in their favour.

Oh and don't get me started on rubber-banding. You can have games with a multitude of difficulty options and assists, and yet I can't turn off the rubber-banding.



I get it, AI coding is costly and time consuming but come on, where are the improvements? I want to feel like I'm racing humans, not robotic drones.

Forza 6/Apex? The opposite of most of your list happens all the time in those games.

I really wish game AI in general was better. It's unfortunate how little it seems to evolve.

This 1000%
 
You don't realize how much devs pull back on their AI to make them purposefully easier for the player.

Smart AI would make most games that require killing 100s of enemies way too difficult.

There are multiple press interviews and presentations at GDCs from devs such as Naughty Dog, Bungie, etc. that discuss their how their player testing of different AI mechanics make them less fun to fight

Like the perception of many players of "smart ai" is not necessarily "smart" but just harder. So giving enemies more health actually makes many players *believe* they are fighting a "smarter" enemy. Simple things like enemies sending your grenade back to you (Call of Duty, Hunters in Halo 5) or stealing your health packs (Bioshock) make AI SEEM very smart to the player even though there performing relatively simple commands, but acting with abilities that the player has.

Yet F.E.A.R achieved the perfect AI. It can be done.
 
yet another reason why I stay away from more realistic racing games

good thing I've never really been the kind of person who thinks an expensive car is the coolest thing in the world
 
There are many design decisions to make before even beginning to develop the systems that determine AI behavior.

First you need to ask what type of behavior would be appropriate. If your driving game is more arcade like and you wish to form an experience that is more fantasy than reality, the AI will be shaped to that vision in mind, all freedoms and limitations included.

I'm going to assume that you are referring to driving simulators by the content of your post. You're working with actual cars(or cars that could possibly exist) and physics honed with math and physics models that describe the forces of reality. So, ignoring the idea of 'fun' at the moment, let's consider the level of abstraction to which we simulate the actual 'driver' of the vehicle. Do we consider it to be an actual physical entity bearing the qualities of the human form and mind? Or are we simply going to emulate the decision making process of a human being while describing behavior that will allow for errors to occur in an expected manner?

The key difference being that the former is a living, breathing person. He sees using his eyes, drives by manually turning the wheel and reaching to shift, feels the swing of inertia and the pressures of acceleration. His knowledge is limited, his sense are imperfect, his distractions are infinitely variable and unpredictable based on any given factor moment to moment and day to day. He will grow tired, let instinct overtake training, lose battles of focus when his emotions run high from failure and success alike. His reactions are limited by the speed of signals in his nervous system, and his decisions are affected by a series of judgments that follow a line of reasoning dependent on potentially faulty information, or faulty interpretation. He can either fail or succeed in the same exact situation(or different situations that are similar enough, which are likely to happen even in the same race on different laps) in various ways.When racing at a professional level, success is determined by inches and milliseconds, and catastrophe can come from a perfect alignment of many factors occurring at once that would not even be noticed if they happened individually.

That would be a small selection variables to consider to even begin to replicate a human beings behavior while driving. Of course, that wasn't exactly your question, but all of those things are important for the aspect of realism, and emulating realistic qualities of the human is one way to model AI that provides a competitive experience that is less transparent. As you stated, AI is costly, and doing all of that(even if everything I mentioned is even possible to model given current science regardless of processing power) is no guarantee of success in realism or, most importantly, providing an enjoyable experience. The balance between accuracy of the simulation and the joy of the experience is a question of design that will always be completely subjective. It's also the relationship that provides the real issue behind game AI; as already stated multiple times in this thread, the real issue lies in handicapping the opponents to provide challenge without letting the player feel they were allowed to win.

Considering publishers actually want to make money off of the game, a half decade of development just to improve one aspect of the offline experience that has terribly high diminishing returns is not a possibility. So we model the driver more abstractly. He has an actual model you can view, his weight is probably considered, he may even have to actually move his hands to shift and his feet to accelerate/break, but all the finer sufferings of the human experience are ignored. With that in mind, he's little more than a very basic finite state machine that's working with a very small amount of variables. If the car loses traction at this speed range in this direction with/without obstacles, apply breaks/let off acceleration until friction coefficient = whatever it needs to be based on a formula that the 'driver' has computed before the next frame is done rendering. That's how most decisions are made in games, adopted to your genre. I'm sure there's some pretty complex stuff going on and i'm being pretty reductive, and i'm no authority on AI or math or physics, but that's pretty much it from every talk i've seen. Granted, "pretty much it" is one or more programmers who could do whatever they want in the general field of computing working 50+ hours of hard fucking labor with software packages written in house by other people, constantly adjusting to feedback from an army of game testers who are not required to have any technical knowledge beyond what is need to be known in order to describe a situation clearly.

Long, rambling and half off topic answer, but the short of it is: this shit is hard, so hard that no one, in any field, has really done better than a hyped up state machine. The field has barely changed in any practical manner for decades, except for:

If only we had neural net procesers.. Some form of learning computers.

Reading headlines about neural networks trained to drive cars and trade stocks may lead you to believe they are an end to any solution regarding automation, but the truth is that they are limited by individual context and are at least as complex to approach from a design perspective alone. We want thing to do stuff: What are we actually asking it to do? Can we provide information that will allow it do that? Do we know how to tell it how to learn with what we can provide? Then, applied to the context of video games: can we even get it to do what we want in a way that's adjustable in difficulty? Is what it accomplishes appropriate for what we want out of the game? Because most behavior resulting from neural nets produce solutions that are completely incomprehensible to anything mankind has ever made or would have likely thought to make. Given the rules of Forza, and the goal we want, is this thing going to fling itself from the dirt to the track in order to drift down a straight segment, somehow winning against all static models?

Neural nets are terrifying because they show us how constricted the human perspective is, which is probably one of the reasons we have difficulty recreating what we do single moment of conscious existence.

Another huge question regarding this entire subject with respect to design is: Are we modelling the actions of a human driving a car, or are we modelling the actions of a human playing a game that simulates the act of driving a car? I'm assuming the latter will provide a better playable experience, but a less believable reality.

Yet F.E.A.R achieved the perfect AI. It can be done.

F.E.A.R. used a surprisingly simple model that was focused on taking individual agents and giving them set goals, while providing a general tool set to allow those goals to be accomplished.

So instead of: If see player, then shoot, else if see player and near cover, then shoot while moving to cover;

it was: Ultimate goal: Reach player in order to shoot him, but do so in a manner that will give him the least opportunities to shoot you, using cover, only running while provided with cover fire(that is communicated instead of known by all agents as if by telepathy) by teammates that are able(also know when the option for cover fire is available), so on and so forth. The results were a more sandbox like feel, more varied due to the limited knowledge enemies had of both their teammates and the player, which required far more caution and allowed a more gradual experience to play out. It also allowed for some emergent situations where you would be flanked, as the enemies would act in manners with the intention of distracting the player from an enemy that is advancing with the knowledge that it's teammate is currently taking fire, and knows how to avoid line of sight. Also, even on the hardest difficulties, they were prone to miss, so no sniping headshots, no grenades lobbed into your shirt pocket from 50 yards, and that part was simply done well from an artistic perspective. It's not an exact science.

The problem is adapting those principals to a game where you're racing vehicles. Completely different arena, and the reasons F.E.A.R. seemed so far beyond had a lot to do with the unpredictable nature of a group of enemies actually working together under the constraints of reality. Before that(and too commonly, since then), agents in shooters just worried about shooting you as soon as you were seen, maybe protecting themselves, maybe taking advantage of where you were looking. Sometimes they would even team up in an aggressive way that at least forced you to think on your toes(Halo comes to mind), but they were usually all knowing, and that was where difficulties become cheap and the magic was revealed to be machine like.

AI has even less of a chance to improve in the coming years due to the popularity of adding multiplayer, regardless of whether it's appropriate or not. Until neural nets become so advanced that they can be formed to any occasion with any goals and data provided, we'll be facing the same predictable meat puppets and four wheeled bumper carts we have been since doom and mario cart.
 
Having a successful, blossoming multi-player platform with brilliant matchmaking that matches real people by experience/skill quickly is the real "AI" i'm interested in.

Driving AI is just like fps 'bots' to me, a vestige from a less interconnected past, when the matchmaking or community wasn't quite there, that has been reduced to being an afterthought or non-entity on successful multiplayer platforms like Overwatch or Rocket League.

Yes, this has morphed into a rant about multiplayer/single-player, but honestly, if you think the future of racing games is offline career mode against bots/AI, I couldn't disagree more.

Multiplayer that works fast and well, and matches you with people of your skill is 100x more fun than even the best AI. Racing games that focus on that will thrive, in the same way that racing games that focus on super-realistic AI and offline career bullshit with wither.
 
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