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[MacTag]

Couldn't it also be a question of how accurate Nintendo's SNES emulator is? Could be that the hardware isn't quite there to run games using the SFX chip. Though that sounds silly when even the Wii ran N64 games very well :lol

Keep in mind different teams often handle different VC platform emulation. While SPD (now EPD) do most of it (NES, SNES, GB/C) the higher end systems are done by M2 (GBA), NST (N64) or NERD (DS).

 

[JailDesigner]

the Super FX chip is a math co-processor. You send it data across a bus, it sends back data across a bus. It literally cannot be a patent or licensing issue, because those would apply to the physical chip itself. You don't need to step on any patent toes to solve math problems in software.

Still, it must be a problem with licenses. DPS games are on VC. Even SHA-1 as I have read. If there's no license problem, then there's a pride problem, like the lack of Virtual Boy games on the VC.

 

[asa]

I fucking love me some flat-shaded polygons. I hope indies start using it someday.

There is whole movement of flatshaded/lowpoly art out there, lot's of indies are using the style. Super hot, Scale, Lovely planet etc.

Speaking of which, (a shameless selfpromo), we released a game called Power Hover last year for iOS and Android. It's ahover boarding racing game that toys around with that flatshaded/lowpoly style. 99% of the game is textured with a single 32x32 palette texture

 

[21XX]

Ah the good old FX Chip. I loved all 4 frames of it.

Also a good time to shout out the soundtrack to Stunt Race FX. Doesn't get enough love.

 

[digita1alchemy]

I've wished for awhile that a journalist or someone would just straight-up ask Nintendo in an interview why there are no SFX games on the Virtual Console, just so we could get a (hopefully) straight answer.

 

[jett]

I really enjoyed Stunt Race FX back in the day, it had some neat track design.

 

[MacTag]

Still, it must be a problem with licenses. DPS games are on VC. Even SHA-1 as I have read. If there's no license problem, then there's a pride problem, like the lack of Virtual Boy games on the VC.

I think it's probably this. Star Fox 1-2 and Stunt Race FX are probably viewed as too rough for current audiences and Nintendo might think it's just not worth bothering with over one game (Yoshi's Island). It's a shame but I can see their rationalization.

 

[MarkMclovin]

Loved Stunt Race FX.

I remember beating some Japanese guy's time that was put into GamesMaster magazine. Worlds fastest time or something. Couldn't record the result back then as there were no digital cameras.

Still, at least it's stored in my heart.

 

[petran79]

DID made some remarkable 3D games back in the days, like Robocop 3, Epic, Inferno and F-29 Reataliator for example.

their flightsims were so far ahead. I was amazed by SuperEF2000. Unsurpassed game, way above the competition. Novalogic's F-22 Lighting was not even close

 

[TriangularDuck]

was dirt trax fx any good? i remember playing it a ton but have no recollection of whether it was a pile of shit or not

I'm pretty sure the game was godawful, but I will always have a soft spot for it because of Tag mode and the batshit insane track design. Those things got ridiculously complicated for some reason, it's kinda silly.

 

[Rich!]

I've wished for awhile that a journalist or someone would just straight-up ask Nintendo in an interview why there are no SFX games on the Virtual Console, just so we could get a (hopefully) straight answer.

Nintendo would not give a straight answer. They would cite emulation issues.

This is where an actual games journalist with actual balls would then say "How is it then that the hobbyist homebrew community have achieved SFX emulation on the Wii, Wii U and N3DS? Are you implying Nintendo do not have comparable talent?"

 

[DiipuSurotu]

How did games like Out of this World run on the SNES without an FX chip? I thought SNES couldn't render Polygons on its own?

Maybe they were rasterized sprites?

 

[Rich!]

Maybe they were rasterized sprites?

I don't know about the game specifically, but the SNES can natively draw polygons. See my post above about Zelda which uses 3D in the intro, the maiden rescue scenes and in the final cutscene and credits.

 

[ResidentDante]

I wonder if Sega's SVP chip would've been cheaper if they'd kept on making it. Let's say they skipped the 32X entirely and made a "Premium 3D Games" lineup of much of the 32X lineup for the SVP cartridges. Virtua Racing, Virtua Fighter, Star Wars etc. More expensive but impressive 3D titles for those wanting the arcade 3D straight into their 16-bit homes.

 

[dr. apocalipsis]

3x the speed of the snes, plus additional ram and other features... It wasn't simply just a faster snes processor.

Additional working RAM was needed just to be able to make it run faster. What most people don't know is that SNES CPU speed was limited by the extremely slow crappy main RAM they used on the console. Any sort of interactuation between both CPUs halves the speed of this chip.

 

[blu]

DID made some remarkable 3D games back in the days, like Robocop 3, Epic, Inferno and F-29 Reataliator for example.

DID were fuckin wizards of the 3D back then. They were my role models in my early 3D coding years. Their TFX remains a technical landmark of its age.

 

[Lord Error]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xRAU7QKWQWE
lol, I'm totally confused with what I'm seeing here...

A Spaceballs State of the Art / 9 Fingers skiing?...

(to give you an idea what I'm talking about)
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=c5kuYfTCGLg
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PPoYzwib7JQ

 

[10k]

Nostalgic tears running down my face. It was a simpler time.

 

[Lord Error]

OMG, the mystery solved:

It's true! State of the Art and Winter Gold both have Paul Endresen in the credits.

The 'video' sequences is made by the same programmer who made the two tech demo's 'State of the Art' from 1992 and 'ninefingers' from 1993 for the Commodore Amiga. both are on youtube.

 

[Beer Monkey]

Regarding "stuff that Nintendo won't release on VC, is it a hardware licensing issue?", we also have Donkey Kong (arcade) plus sequels.

Regarding "stuff that has the look of an FX chip", don't forget Tempest 2000, Battlesphere, and Cybermorph on the Jaguar, as well as Shadow Squadron on 32X, and so on. Of course these often do stuff that the FX couldn't do like gouraud shading but the aesthetic will appeal to those who like the FX stuff.

 

[Chittagong]

FX Trax, anyone remember that?

A bad ass racer game from Nintendo, in the style of Virtua Racing. It disappeared, and re-emerged a year later unrecognisable

Spoiler

with more Rare eyes applied to everything

I wonder if any footage or ROMs of FX Trax even exist anymore...?

 

[-shadow-]

Same for the crystals in the dark world cutscenes. They're 3D.

Really? I had no idea that the crystal was a 3D object. That's absolutely amazing!

 

[Rich!]

Really? I had no idea that the crystal was a 3D object. That's absolutely amazing!

Yep! If you want to, download Hyrule Magic and open up a US Zelda LTTP ROM in it. You can use the polygon editor to change both the triforce and the crystal shapes.

 

[SOR5]

Yep! If you want to, download Hyrule Magic and open up a US Zelda LTTP ROM in it. You can use the polygon editor to change both the triforce and the crystal shapes.

Oh SNES you'll never stop impressing me

 

[FyreWulff]

the Super FX chip is a math co-processor. You send it data across a bus, it sends back data across a bus. It literally cannot be a patent or licensing issue, because those would apply to the physical chip itself. You don't need to step on any patent toes to solve math problems in software.

The problem is Nintendo was involved with the development with it, so they could get nailed to the wall since they can't claim clean room reverse engineering if the chip maker got it patented or trade secret'd in some way.

And given you can be sued over anything I can see why they wouldn't bother.

So yes, while it's just math, the insanity of the current legal climate is we have illegal math equations

I still think it's due to some background industry politics.

 

[Zee-Row]

Any tech demos of the nes running polygons?

 

[BriGuy]

Stunt Race FX/Wild Trax is a Super FX2 game. The proof is that is a good donor to do a StarFox 2 repro.

I could have sworn it was the first game to use the "real" FX1 chip, Starfox having utilized a scaled-back version of the same chip.

 

[Commo]

Stunt Race FX/Wild Trax is a Super FX2 game. The proof is that is a good donor to do a StarFox 2 repro.

People better not be doing that shit. There aren't that many copies out in the wild.

Really? I had no idea that the crystal was a 3D object. That's absolutely amazing!

Don't quote me on it, but it could be the same kind of 3D rendering that Gunstar Heroes used-

 

[Rich!]

What's really awesome about the 3D in LTTP is that, despite being primitive, the console is able to display it with constant rotation/manipulation along with sprites and a BG layer (good example is the maiden dialogue, the triforce scene and the end credits). It's odd how no one else seemed to utilise this in their games.

 

[FyreWulff]

Looking at the GIFs posted so far, it makes me wonder if the Super FX's rendered polygons are more stable than the PS1's - don't seem to be significant z-ordering issues or texture warping from what I can see.

I really like that look, too. Though I think going back to actually playing them at their original frame rate would feel bad.

A lot of developers had issues with polygons coming apart with FX games. There's no z-buffer (just like PS1) and the use of textures is usually kept to face-on objects or faked with sprites that have different images depending on what direction they're being looked at from, like MarioKart.

What's really awesome about the 3D in LTTP is that, despite being primitive, the console is able to display it with constant rotation/manipulation along with sprites and a BG layer (good example is the maiden dialogue, the triforce scene and the end credits). It's odd how no one else seemed to utilise this in their games.

LttP had a bit of advantage in that the screen didn't scroll fast and had very few other things going on, so they had more overhead to do 3Dish effects. The SNES couldn't keep up, mathematically, otherwise, because it's not able to do stuff like a hardware divide or multiply without a helper chip, you had to do those in software. Shortcomings like that are why people are able to pull off homebrew SuperFX style games on the stock Genesis but not the SNES

 

[DiipuSurotu]

What's really awesome about the 3D in LTTP is that, despite being primitive, the console is able to display it with constant rotation/manipulation along with sprites and a BG layer (good example is the maiden dialogue, the triforce scene and the end credits). It's odd how no one else seemed to utilise this in their games.

Chrono Trigger used polygons in some of its battle animations (often during triple techs).

 

[Discomurf]

Here's a short clip of FX Fighter in action

 

[FyreWulff]

Any tech demos of the nes running polygons?

Yep

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zoBIOi00sEI

Although that wasn't drawing "true" polygons, it's actually a lookup table that uses predrawn tiles to assemble each ship

 

[evilromero]

I recently replayed Stunt Race FX and while it took some time to reaquint with the controls, it's still fun. Love the levels and the music. It's really a series waiting to be revisited.

 

[Discomurf]

Yep

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zoBIOi00sEI

Although that wasn't drawing "true" polygons, it's actually a lookup table that uses predrawn tiles to assemble each ship

pretty cool never knew of this game

 

[Commo]

For comparison purposes only, here is footage of the game Solaris for the Atari 2600, which is considered to have the best graphics out of the entire Atari 2600 library-

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=buhHMAcRSwU


I have no idea how they managed to produce those sprites.


Getting back to the SNES, even though I'm not a fan of pre-rendered sprites, Project Dream still looked really good-

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=g65aNHZKMXk

Better than Donkey Kong Country and SMRPG. What engine were they using?

 

[Cow Mengde]

Chrono Trigger used polygons in some of its battle animations (often during triple techs).

Now this I didn't know. I thought the Zelda polygons were well known.

 

[Sir Abacus]

I wonder if Sega's SVP chip would've been cheaper if they'd kept on making it. Let's say they skipped the 32X entirely and made a "Premium 3D Games" lineup of much of the 32X lineup for the SVP cartridges. Virtua Racing, Virtua Fighter, Star Wars etc. More expensive but impressive 3D titles for those wanting the arcade 3D straight into their 16-bit homes.

The biggest problem with doing this with the SVP is its 16 color limitation giving some god awful moire effects not to mention its egregiously low polycount. The 32X version of Star Wars Trilogy Aracde often had more polygons in a scene than what the SVP could pump out in a second.

 

[FyreWulff]

For comparison purposes only, here is footage of the game Solaris for the Atari 2600, which is considered to have the best graphics out of the entire Atari 2600 library-

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=buhHMAcRSwU


I have no idea how they managed to produce those sprites.

Everything is colored in gradient style, meaning the programmers made it look more 'drawn' than other games by just changing the color while drawing each line. Pretty neat trick.

 

[dragonzdogma]

Yep! If you want to, download Hyrule Magic and open up a US Zelda LTTP ROM in it. You can use the polygon editor to change both the triforce and the crystal shapes.

That's sick.

 

[MrCunningham]

People better not be doing that shit. There aren't that many copies out in the wild.




Don't quote me on it, but it could be the same kind of 3D rendering that Gunstar Heroes used-

I don't think there are any actually polygons being used with this boss. Just some cleverly animated sprites.

But there are quite a few Mega Drive/ Genesis games that pull off polygons:

StarCruiser: https://youtu.be/MIMEfxYh3lc?t=39 (Released in Japan only)
F1 World Championship: https://youtu.be/9Ojq3cq0STQ?t=123 (uses polygons sparingly throughout the environments)
Kawasaki Superbike Challenge: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=o9v-9lGNJQ4 (been posted in this thread earlier, but uses the same engine as F1 World Championship)
M1 Abrams Battle Tank: https://youtu.be/cqXJ5HZ8D5s?t=137 (very slow)
Jimmy White's Whirlwind Snooker : https://youtu.be/HkQ9uAW0FBQ?t=6
Muhammad Ali Heavyweight Boxing: https://youtu.be/i3WFkaoJ11c?t=36 (uses polygons for the intro and the boxing area during gameplay)
Corporation: https://youtu.be/QocuSsovRJg?t=74
Toy Story: https://youtu.be/oWxAWEC4nkk?t=1471 (The Genesis version has one additional level that isn't in the SNES game that uses textured mapped polygons)
Wacky Racers: https://youtu.be/Ly8FqQQ2HIQ?t=10 (this is a cancelled game, but shows use of polygons for the tracks)
ResQ: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4sXgFmZ-tM0 (another cancelled game, bonus stages were designed to resemble Star Fox)
Star Fox tech demo: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-MsFrLEK4OY (been posted plenty of times)

There's also Hard Drivin' , Steel Talons, LHX Attack Chopper and some others.

 

[Cow Mengde]

So GSU-1 can run at 21MHZ, but is halved to 10.5Mhz like the Mario Chip 1. I guess this chip can make a good donor for Star Fox 2 because it can be unlocked. But that would also be the case for Dirt Trax, Vortex and Dirt Racer as well. Though Stunt Race is probably the easiest cart to find out of that bunch since it sold the most cartridges. GSU-2 seems to be unlocked at 21MHZ and is capable of handling larger ROM sizes. The iteration of the SuperFX chip is in Yoshi's Island. I wonder if the final release ROM of Star Fox 2 uses the GSU-2-SP1? Dylan Cuthbert apparently owns a version of Star Fox 2 that even is more close to final release than the version that leaked and is out on the NET. But he won't release it.

Is it possible to unlock the chip so that Stunt Race FX didn't run at such a horrible frame rate? I tried playing it years ago, but man, that damn frame rate.

 

[MrCunningham]

Is it possible to unlock the chip so that Stunt Race FX didn't run at such a horrible frame rate? I tried playing it years ago, but man, that damn frame rate.

There are plenty of examples of Stunt Race FX running on overclocked SFX chips.

Here is Stunt Race FX overclocked from 10.5MHZ to 13.5Mhz: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xB7180J4ocY

Here is another video showing Stunt Race FX running at 30mhz: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NovmZ8PNVDE

Though in the second video, the Stunt Race ROM was placed on a Winter Gold PCB with a GSU-2 chip.

Looking it up. I think you can unlock the GSU-1 chip to 21.5Mhz in Stunt Race FX by doing a hardware modification and replacing the oscillators on the PCB with higher graded ones.

 

[usmanusb]

Thanks for refreshing the great old times and never seen footage..

You're thinking of Uniracers, and no it didn't use the Super FX chip.

Super FX games:
Star Fox (1993)

Stunt Race FX (1994)

Vortex (1994)

Dirt Trax FX (1995)

Dirt Racer (1995, released in the EU only)

Super FX2 games:
Doom (1995)

Yoshi's Island (1995)

Winter Gold (1996, Released in the UK only)

Cancelled SuperFX games:

FX Fighter (Super FX2 chip)

Video: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WzpdYbiJ3AQ

Comanche (SuperFX2 chip)

Video: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4uZeF4AvxM0 (this one is interesting as it used the FX2 chip for voxels instead of polygons)

Star Fox 2 (Super FX2 chip)

Video: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NfZQlqXyp3U

Power Slide FX (Super FX1)
Video: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pAp978pDFeo

Transformers Generation 2 (Super FX 1)
Not much is really known about this game, though some people speculated that it may have turned into Vortex. But this might not be the case.

 

[ResidentDante]

The biggest problem with doing this with the SVP is its 16 color limitation giving some god awful moire effects not to mention its egregiously low polycount. The 32X version of Star Wars Trilogy Aracde often had more polygons in a scene than what the SVP could pump out in a second.

Yeah, that's true. I guess that's why they opted for the 32X add-on instead: Buy yourself into an exclusive line of games with a new hardware piece.

 

[Cute Dragon Here]

A lot of developers had issues with polygons coming apart with FX games. There's no z-buffer (just like PS1) and the use of textures is usually kept to face-on objects or faked with sprites that have different images depending on what direction they're being looked at from, like MarioKart.




LttP had a bit of advantage in that the screen didn't scroll fast and had very few other things going on, so they had more overhead to do 3Dish effects. The SNES couldn't keep up, mathematically, otherwise, because it's not able to do stuff like a hardware divide or multiply without a helper chip, you had to do those in software. Shortcomings like that are why people are able to pull off homebrew SuperFX style games on the stock Genesis but not the SNES

Interesting - you probably wouldn't be able to tell from the GIFs posted in the thread.

 

[Reversed]

I wonder how Super Mario FX would have looked.

 

[CamHostage]

There are plenty of examples of Stunt Race FX running on overclocked SFX chips.

Here is Stunt Race FX overclocked from 10.5MHZ to 13.5Mhz: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xB7180J4ocY

Here is another video showing Stunt Race FX running at 30mhz: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NovmZ8PNVDE

Though in the second video, the Stunt Race ROM was placed on a Winter Gold PCB with a GSU-2 chip.

Almost looks playable today running at those framerates, but it's still obviously rough. Emulators that can play SFX games pop the speed up too (though there are emulation errors, as I understand?), the game looks about right; the 50 Mhz version looks really enjoyable.

Too bad Nintendo couldn't get these SFX games out on Virtual Console, Stunt Race FX has always been hard to bear in its original form (I remember unlocking the 2WD and just throwing my hands up at how fast the vehicle was versus how slow the environment draw was,) but the gameplay is I believe worth it. It was a game from a nice era of racing games where the gameplay focused on driving rather than steering, where you really had to understand your car's abilities and handling and weight and response to track elements to win. Every vehicle in the game was a separate challenge, and tracks were designed to test skills for each car. A great title for its time, and representative of something lost along the way in game development.

BTW, connected to nothing really, but this homebrew GB Stunt Race FX tech demo looks pretty cool for people who enjoyed the Hard Drivin' era of 3D.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YgANs-gSWTw

 

[The Real Abed]

Edit: Bottom paged.

 

[jmdajr]

edit: hmmm so maybe it didn't use the fx chip? I was sure it did.

edit edit: aaah It used the The Cx4 chip.