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I think I like The Terminator more than Terminator 2: Judgement Day
- Thread starter EatChildren
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wut
I H8 Memes
Member
Not that T2 was a bad movie, but it could have been so much better. Arnold being such a huge star by then is what killed it. Now you have Cameron trying to humanize a cyborg so Arnold can actually be the lead in the film and it doesnt work at all. The further into the film you get the worse the T-800 character gets. The directors cut is unbearable because of this.
And of course, Edward Furlong. His mannerisms, his voice, his character is written to be a whinny little bitch.
I think it's a testament to how good the action, execution, and overall flow of the movie is that it overcomes such glaring weaknesses to end up a great movie.
Also, Bill Paxton.
And of course, Edward Furlong. His mannerisms, his voice, his character is written to be a whinny little bitch.
I think it's a testament to how good the action, execution, and overall flow of the movie is that it overcomes such glaring weaknesses to end up a great movie.
Also, Bill Paxton.
What?
DUFFMCWALIN
Member
Terminator shits all over T2 just like Alien shits all over Aliens. And I fucking love T2 and Aliens to death.
F0rneus
Tears in the rain
Weirdly, Cameron got it perfectly right with Bishop in Aliens. He was synthetic but his interactions with Ripley felt increasingly warmer through the film until they bonded, and it worked beautifully.
But I do believe the T800 in Terminator 2 while "weaker" is still an outstanding character with top shelf development. So let's agree to disagree haha.
Hero_of_the_Day
Member
Just said this yesterday in the other T2 thread, but the theatrical cut is the directors cut. If you watch the T2 Special Edition with the commentary on, Cameron spends most of the deleted scenes explaining why he cut it and why he thinks the movie is better without.
Special edition sucks.
This. There's something really engaging and tragic about how easily vulnerable and lost the life of a 20 something year old girl in this cyber-loving '80s LA. Even her relationship with Reese isn't an easy decision, its all high life risk. And her decisions allowing the survival of mankind. It's huge stakes, classic '80s feel (a lot more specific in atmosphere than T2), unsettling soundtrack, perfect creation of a movie villain, very good leads.
Plus you feel like its always going to catch them. Reese/Sarah falling in love with each other is this temporary hope, but mostly you feel like someones out to end their lives and its only a matter of time until they succeed.
I love T2, its my favorite film as a kid, but its more a cast of character high-octane movie. Fantastic sequences brilliantly planned out; Arnold in the bar opening (iconic return), Motorcycle chase, Jail, Cyberdyne shootout. Brilliant stuff. Even what I consider an amazing performance from Linda Hamilton, giving this eery, irreversible loss of innocence to her character. It gives a weight to the original in reverse even for me, just to see how innocent she was an her inability to stop what was coming to her. (The larger world beyond the beginning/end of these two films really adds to the experience, down to Sarah's ending monologue and the picture to end T1. Gives a weight to characters lives and where they go beyond the last frame more than most films.)
The second also has a brilliant opening, great soundtrack, cutting age action, super fun Arnie performance. Its awesome. But I find myself returning to T1 more, as that atmosphere just stays with you. The more visceral, absorbing film for my money. At this moment. I've also probably watched T2 about 10-15 more times so that may have something to do with it. Didn't see T1 until I was 8 or 9 on my friend's taped VHS. It was scary, not as fun, and I remember a shocking amount of nipple.
@ daviyoung - This was the answer was looking for. The Tron thing threw me off because of how old the movie was. My bad.
EatChildren
Currently polling second in Australia's federal election (first in the Gold Coast), this feral may one day be your Bogan King.
I think it works for Bishop because humanising him comes from Ripley's developments, not Bishop. Ripley is the one expressing hostility and reservations towards a synthetic, not Bishop lacking anything. Ripley learns to trust him, and it's not because Bishop has earned trust, but because Ripley has realised and overcome her own prejudice.
Enosh
Member
yeah yeah I know it get something like that, but to defend myself
TSCC made some good progress in the overall lore of the conflict, showed it from a point of view other than from the chosen ones at times, which i think was needed, Cameron was great as a terminator and introducing a third faction was also quite a good idea aka T1000s rebelling against skynet, some stupid stuff like the three dots thing with Sarah and John being a bit of a wimp in the first season but overall a very enjoyable show that I would rather watch than T2
edit: to add maybe it's just also that overall I prefer TV shows to movies
T2 is well T2, it's a good fun movie, oh and yes John there is fucking annoying as hell, much more than in SCC
I can say the same about salvation really
t1 I find a bit dated and overall just not as fun as the other 2 movies
and t3 just isn't that good
TSCC made some good progress in the overall lore of the conflict, showed it from a point of view other than from the chosen ones at times, which i think was needed, Cameron was great as a terminator and introducing a third faction was also quite a good idea aka T1000s rebelling against skynet, some stupid stuff like the three dots thing with Sarah and John being a bit of a wimp in the first season but overall a very enjoyable show that I would rather watch than T2
edit: to add maybe it's just also that overall I prefer TV shows to movies
T2 is well T2, it's a good fun movie, oh and yes John there is fucking annoying as hell, much more than in SCC
I can say the same about salvation really
t1 I find a bit dated and overall just not as fun as the other 2 movies
and t3 just isn't that good
ViewtifulJC
Banned
Terminator 2 is like the big-budget glossy studio sequel to the raw cult debut smash album. It's bigger, slicker, but it loses that lean, pure energy that drove the first one. I mean, from the minute Reese says "Come with me if you want to live", it is ON for the next 90 minutes of some of the meanest thriller movie awesomeness you've ever seen.
T2 is considerably more bloated and lacks its predecessors unholy urgency, stopping every now and then for a nice long draught of exposition - of which there is considerably more than there was in the first movie, largely because Cameron and his co-writer, William Wisher, take great pains to show us all the little ways in which this film doesn't violate the integrity of the first movie whatsoever. In the original film, all the exposition was dumped in two scenes which were woven into the plot so effectively that you hardly notice that the action stops for upwards of five minutes("...and it absolutely will not stop, EVER...until you are dead"); here, in a film that already runs nearly a half-hour longer than the first, there are quite a few noticeably saggy moments.
And while Hamilton's Sarah Connor is still the best performance in the film, Furlong's John Connor is just GODAWFUl. There isn't a single moment of the film when I ever particularly care for him, and at least one point ("Did you call moi a dipshit?") when I wish I could transform my own arm into a steel blade and drive it into the television, killing him myself. It's a miracle of filmmaking that the film works so well despite having an insufferable little protagonist.
T2 is considerably more bloated and lacks its predecessors unholy urgency, stopping every now and then for a nice long draught of exposition - of which there is considerably more than there was in the first movie, largely because Cameron and his co-writer, William Wisher, take great pains to show us all the little ways in which this film doesn't violate the integrity of the first movie whatsoever. In the original film, all the exposition was dumped in two scenes which were woven into the plot so effectively that you hardly notice that the action stops for upwards of five minutes("...and it absolutely will not stop, EVER...until you are dead"); here, in a film that already runs nearly a half-hour longer than the first, there are quite a few noticeably saggy moments.
And while Hamilton's Sarah Connor is still the best performance in the film, Furlong's John Connor is just GODAWFUl. There isn't a single moment of the film when I ever particularly care for him, and at least one point ("Did you call moi a dipshit?") when I wish I could transform my own arm into a steel blade and drive it into the television, killing him myself. It's a miracle of filmmaking that the film works so well despite having an insufferable little protagonist.
I still like to imagine a T2 that felt more intertwined with the first one. I know some people think sequels that respect the original too much fail, but T1 feels alive in its final scene. T2 is kind of the wrapping up of this romp with Arnold and friends. But we're so removed from Sarah, and John hasn't fully developed at all, that the final monologue with Sarah is like an agreement to just end it in a similar way as the first without earning it. Also some of the events feel like they just happened, as opposed to seeing how much weight Sarah was going to carry losing a love, pregnant, and with the world ready not to believe her. Cameron maybe even knew it didn't have the proper weight, as the special edition ending shows. It's doesn't have T1's precision.
Hero_of_the_Day
Member
I don't know. I think T3 is literally one of the worst movies I've ever seen. Salvation was just a stupid action movie with robots in it. But, as someone who would easily list T2 among my favorite movies of all time, Salvation wasn't nearly as offensive as T3 was to me.
SpoonyBard
Banned
T1 was better, T2 is just a dumbed down sequel with annoying kid and too much focus on Arnold being funny. T3 went further with comedy, and it ended up not being even a good movie. T2 was still good, just not as great as the original.
SonicMegaDrive
Member
Oh, I know I do.
This isn't that uncommon an opinion, actually.
This isn't that uncommon an opinion, actually.
I started to try to type something like this out but you've done a much better job of it.
The Horror the horror
Banned
Arnold looked freakishly imposing and downright vicious in T1. A freaky byproduct of the heydays of Muscle Beach. As a kid, I've never seen a villain like him. By T2, Hollywood was already filled to the brim with buff heroes and Arnold's diminished size due to his focus on his movie career didn't make him standout nor as intimidating to me.
Lambda Pie
Banned
i prefer the first one as well. better atmosphere, story's more tight, that sense of dread from the very 1st minute... it's may not be more "fun", but it's definitely the better movie.
Kabuki Quantum Lover
Member
As long as its a debate between T1 & T2. Both movies share an equal amount of space in my heart. T3 & Salvation fans: GTFO. The TV show was more respectful of the canon than those movies.
NaturalHigh
Member
Salvation has the best graphics. So therefore it is the best.
VeryGooster
Banned
God I love this soundtrack. (I don't know why the police station escape part has this Casio drum beats in it, though... :/)
The bigger debate: which was the shittier robot film of 2009: Salvation or Transformers: Revenge of the Fallen?
The bigger debate: which was the shittier robot film of 2009: Salvation or Transformers: Revenge of the Fallen?
SonicMegaDrive
Member
It's definitely a film worthy of the title 'THE TERMINATOR'.
Even after having seen the film dozens of times, it still fills me with a sense of terror while watching it.
The scene where the unstoppable cyborg completely wrecks an entire police station...just incredible.
Hero_of_the_Day
Member
Pretty cool video. I would fucking love to flip through all that Terminator stuff. Can't believe he doesn't have that Rose drawing from Titanic in a frame or something. I bet that thing would sell for a lot of money.
Also, Cameron has some weird ass dreams.
To me, it's kind of like comparing Mad Max to The Road Warrior. Both are really good, but the sequel(s) had such unfair advantages with the budget, it's hard to really compare.
The original(s) had the advantage of being the origin story and not having to be bogged down with story, it's almost all action.
The original(s) had the advantage of being the origin story and not having to be bogged down with story, it's almost all action.
SpoonyBard
Banned
And in both series the third movie betrayed the ending if the previous movie.
Alien 3: all the other people that survived the ending of Aliens died soon after the credits rolled.
T3: No fate? Just kidding, there's nothing you can do to change your destiny.
EatChildren
Currently polling second in Australia's federal election (first in the Gold Coast), this feral may one day be your Bogan King.
Horse Detective
Why the long case?
Terminator is so much better.
2 is very overrated imo.
2 is very overrated imo.
Bucket Mouse
Member
Whenever T1 used to come on TV when I was younger, either my mum or dad would always manage to walk into the room at the precise moment Sarah Connor was bouncing on Kyle Reese's dick, saggy tits flying everywhere. WITHOUT FAIL.
I envy you! I'm 24 so I wasn't old enough to see T2 at the cinema, but to go in without knowing that Arnie was the good guy, somehow avoiding all the marketing that spoiled this twist, would have made the revelation even sweeter to me. It's almost like your generation's "I am your father" moment.
I think the dynamic of totally changing the T-800's character is what makes T1 + T2 such rich continuous narrative, and why both films are fantastic on their own but even better when viewed as one inseparable story.
T2 took the franchise to its limit though and I only consider the first two films as canon. T3 was completely superfluous and is essentially an inferior and heavily watered down T2 with all the same beats and an even younger target audience.
NaturalHigh
Member
ViewtifulJC
Banned
That pounding, techno-spiced main theme, used as a motivistic element whenever the Terminator asserts his unstoppable machine-ness, is one of the great pieces of movie music in the whole decade. It's so goddamn dramatic and UNmelodic and jarring, it gets you riled up, makes you feel uneasy, keeps the energy of the movie going from that bar scene to the end. There is this ungodly cyborg monster coming for you. It can't be reasoned with. It doesn't feel pity, or remorse, or fear. And it absolutely will not stop, ever, until you are dead.
Charles Foster Kane
Rosebud
When he said it in T1 he didn't know he was saying a classic line so it was inherently better.
Also completely agree with viewtiful's album comparison.
Horse Detective
Why the long case?
Lmao
Hero_of_the_Day
Member
T2 is flabby?
T1 is pure cheese. Its like a low budget John Carpenter B-movie classic (nothing wrong with that) that only kinda holds up. People comparing T1 to Alien are fucking insane
T2 on the other hand, is action sci-fi epic done PERFECTLY. .
Yes its bigger and more expensive looking, but its better for it. The pacing is perfect. The look of it is spot-on. The characters are great. The locations and story arc are fucking perfection. Its much better at being what it is than T1.
Terminator>T2
The first is a relentless sci fi thriller.
The second is a hollywood sci fi action blockbuster.
the first sets up and executes an incredible sci fi world with a relentless pacing and an imposing and deadly antagonist.
The second takes the imposing and deadly antagonist and cuts his figurative balls off, and makes him a nurse maid to a whiny screeching child.
Terminator 2 Judgement day should have been called T2: pet terminator.
The first is a relentless sci fi thriller.
The second is a hollywood sci fi action blockbuster.
the first sets up and executes an incredible sci fi world with a relentless pacing and an imposing and deadly antagonist.
The second takes the imposing and deadly antagonist and cuts his figurative balls off, and makes him a nurse maid to a whiny screeching child.
Terminator 2 Judgement day should have been called T2: pet terminator.
ReturnOfTheRAT
Member
T2 is the complete experience. The torment of Sarah, being locked up in an insane aslyum, being freed and still treated like the crazy one. John's wonderment at the existence of a Terminator assigned to protect him. Turning the concept on its head and having the machine we know from the first movie be that was designed to kill be the one assigned to protect. T-1000 is the embodiment of that menacing LAPD office. I'd say Cameron was ahead of him time with the entire characterization there. You have the technical points of how well made the movie is; the action, usage of twins, editing via cutaway with strategic placement of objects, practical effects, and emotional score that matches the highs and lows of the story. There is also a lot of affecting imagery in the movie. Sarah's dream sequence, Dyson and his family, and specifically the legendary ending. That doesn't even include the the realization of a CGI creation in as the T-1000. It was a sight to behold in 92 and still impresses to this day.
Hero_of_the_Day
Member
Moon Boots
Banned
T1 is a better genre film. It's scarier, has more gripping scenes of violence, and is not as convoluted as a time travel tale.
T2, however, is - I would argue - the better work of art, overall. The Reese/Sarah love story in the first movie is, honestly, quite trite and banal, when you remove the gimmick of time travel from it; even in 84, Cameron's predilection for cheesy romance reared its lovely head. As well, neither of them are particularly well-developed or interesting characters. T2, on the other hand, twists the premise of the first in a novel way, and having the villain be svelte and good-looking is an excellent twist that would have shocked the hell out of me as a kid. While many express annoyance at the John Connor character, the fact is that it's a well-written and -acted depiction of a child, annoying or not, and the uses of early 90s slang and the like is not mere pandering but a way of showing John's need (and, ultimately, inability) to fit in to something more normal. Sarah is a more interesting character as a raving madwoman, and I think the scene with her and Reese in the Director's Cut is actually more interesting than pretty much any scene they actually have together in the first one, as it gives real insight into the humanity underlying her mania. Her relationship with John is a LOT more complex than with Reese, and the scene in the Director's Cut where they argue about reprogramming the T800 really captures John's burgeoning sense of leadership, as well as Sarah's nigh-religious reverence of such. John turning his protector into a surrogate father figure, yet also being the teacher OF said figure, was also a pretty good, complex dynamic. The unfortunate thing about T2 is that it makes the story convoluted as shit, but if you give it a bit of liberty and suspend your disbelief, it shows itself to be a deeper, more complex work overall.
T2, however, is - I would argue - the better work of art, overall. The Reese/Sarah love story in the first movie is, honestly, quite trite and banal, when you remove the gimmick of time travel from it; even in 84, Cameron's predilection for cheesy romance reared its lovely head. As well, neither of them are particularly well-developed or interesting characters. T2, on the other hand, twists the premise of the first in a novel way, and having the villain be svelte and good-looking is an excellent twist that would have shocked the hell out of me as a kid. While many express annoyance at the John Connor character, the fact is that it's a well-written and -acted depiction of a child, annoying or not, and the uses of early 90s slang and the like is not mere pandering but a way of showing John's need (and, ultimately, inability) to fit in to something more normal. Sarah is a more interesting character as a raving madwoman, and I think the scene with her and Reese in the Director's Cut is actually more interesting than pretty much any scene they actually have together in the first one, as it gives real insight into the humanity underlying her mania. Her relationship with John is a LOT more complex than with Reese, and the scene in the Director's Cut where they argue about reprogramming the T800 really captures John's burgeoning sense of leadership, as well as Sarah's nigh-religious reverence of such. John turning his protector into a surrogate father figure, yet also being the teacher OF said figure, was also a pretty good, complex dynamic. The unfortunate thing about T2 is that it makes the story convoluted as shit, but if you give it a bit of liberty and suspend your disbelief, it shows itself to be a deeper, more complex work overall.
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