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I think that MGS would be better without the tranquilizer gun.
- Thread starter JimmyRustler
- Start date
AndrewDean84xX
Banned
I just am not a fan of being docked points for still being 100% stealth by chocking enemies out and then killing them with silenced weapons.
That's still being stealthy.
That's still being stealthy.
Yeah I've been seeing the tranq tun as a crutch for a while now. I used to attempt non-lethal runs through MGS3 without it, which meant using CQC on every enemy. That's basically how other stealth games handle nonlethal takedowns. Maybe they should remove tranq guns from higher difficulties or something.
The only situations in which tranq weapons are absolutely required is if you want to nonlethally defeat a boss (in MGS3 or Portable Ops).
The only situations in which tranq weapons are absolutely required is if you want to nonlethally defeat a boss (in MGS3 or Portable Ops).
Sounds like the OP wants a system like Splinter Cell Blacklist
What's nice about the Splinter Cell system is that you get the most points for leaving enemies completely undisturbed.
I hate the implication that anything other than a tranquilizer is the equivalent of Rambo. So darts are the only silent means of attack, and only that equates to stealth now? See below.
They should just drop the pacifism bonuses for high score, and stick to actually rewarding stealth.
I haven't played Blacklist yet, but what you said is the best kind of grading system!
Romars202129
Member
I felt MGS4 fixed this problem by having plenty of robot enemies, and also giving you a lot of non lethal bullets for other guns. Plus, 2 form bosses, so you could just blaze on their first form, and use tranqs afterwords.
Not Spaceghost
Spaceghost
Yeah I agree, the tranq gun feels too necessary to do those "perfect" runs.
It's gotten to the point where I've just stopped caring about no kill runs in MGS because most of them will involve the tranq gun or something else. I honestly think lethal-stealth is more fun anyways.
Sneaking around then you get spotted and suddenly you have 3 bodies on the floor in front of you that you have to dispose of or hide. It adds to the tension in a way the tranq gun never does.
If you tranq and enemy you can basically just leave him there, if a guard walks up to him and wakes him, he'll go into a caution mode but nothing that would ruin your score or run. Hell the fact that you can knock people out in a battle with the tranq gun is even more hilariously boring.
To me the game is more fun if you're playing not to kill and playing it hard core stealthy, but screwing up leads into a possible gun fight.
That's the kind of tension I loved with MGS1, and even though there was a tranq gun in MGS2 I didn't really feel like it broke the tension that much, mostly because of the patrol patterns of the enemies and the over all level design (especially the parcel room in the big shell). MGS3 and onwards is when the tranq gun started to feel like something you had to rely on.
It's gotten to the point where I've just stopped caring about no kill runs in MGS because most of them will involve the tranq gun or something else. I honestly think lethal-stealth is more fun anyways.
Sneaking around then you get spotted and suddenly you have 3 bodies on the floor in front of you that you have to dispose of or hide. It adds to the tension in a way the tranq gun never does.
If you tranq and enemy you can basically just leave him there, if a guard walks up to him and wakes him, he'll go into a caution mode but nothing that would ruin your score or run. Hell the fact that you can knock people out in a battle with the tranq gun is even more hilariously boring.
To me the game is more fun if you're playing not to kill and playing it hard core stealthy, but screwing up leads into a possible gun fight.
That's the kind of tension I loved with MGS1, and even though there was a tranq gun in MGS2 I didn't really feel like it broke the tension that much, mostly because of the patrol patterns of the enemies and the over all level design (especially the parcel room in the big shell). MGS3 and onwards is when the tranq gun started to feel like something you had to rely on.
Romars202129
Member
You guys are either talking about GZ exclusively, or are misunderstanding the mgs rating system. You aren't deducted points for killing in the earlier games, just the best rank in the game [big boss] requires no killing. But their are plenty of other high ranks that require murder in great numbers.
If you don't like the pacifism route then you won't like what ghosting requires in SC.
DesertEater
Member
OP, you bring up some really good points. I started MGS2 few weeks ago. And while the presentation and the visual aspects of the game are top notch (the game is just gorgeous and has a great atmosphere), gameplay wise it's dull as fuck. I played it on Hard setting, but the tranquilizer gun makes any non-boss enemy encounter fairly easy. Why would you use any of the other gadgets you're given? tranquilize everyone. That and the fact that there is a cut scene every few seconds made me stop playing the game. It's just not fun!
And of course there is the weird camera, which does give a cinematic effect but can be clunky at times. I feel like after the new wave of rouge likes, I stopped enjoying some older games that I used to enjoy. Like I hate the fact that it takes about an hour or so to start actually playing the damn game (talking about mgs2). Or the fact that there is a story that I should take seriously. Maybe i'm too spoiled by Dark/Demon's Souls and FTL. They're fun from start to finish.
And of course there is the weird camera, which does give a cinematic effect but can be clunky at times. I feel like after the new wave of rouge likes, I stopped enjoying some older games that I used to enjoy. Like I hate the fact that it takes about an hour or so to start actually playing the damn game (talking about mgs2). Or the fact that there is a story that I should take seriously. Maybe i'm too spoiled by Dark/Demon's Souls and FTL. They're fun from start to finish.
MakeMeFeelAlive
Member
I understand your point, but I would do it differently. I feel they should limit the amount of ammo there is for all other guns and keep that number low. It would force you to survive and manage on your own using the tranq and limit lethal force to hand to hand. Then you have the ammo for lethal guns on bosses, etc. This would keep and expand sneak missions, IMO.
That said, MGS wants to push you towards non lethal. Its why they attach the higher "reward" for it. The tranq gun is not even meant to be used. Kojima wants you to sneak through the game undetected without ever having to fire any weapon.
That said, MGS wants to push you towards non lethal. Its why they attach the higher "reward" for it. The tranq gun is not even meant to be used. Kojima wants you to sneak through the game undetected without ever having to fire any weapon.
Sounds like the OP wants a system like Splinter Cell Blacklist
The difference between this and Metal Gear, is Metal Gear's entire theme is predicated on you deciding what you want to do, regardless of what is given to you. Splinter Cell is about doing what your told at your leisure.
Can anyone point to places where you're forced to use the gun? I accidentally rescued Paz first, and had to leave her behind a wall, and grabbed Chico, but I only used guns when I was caught. I've always treated getting caught like a stress reliever and pull out all my weapons, but during play, I use the tranq gun if I don't feel like restarting. I don't like that I'm forced to put my hands on a guard though, that's a different matter all together, and is the western influence leaking in.
And every entry point I've seen has a "gun-less" entrance. It's really weird using Splinter Cell sensibilities in a Metal Gear game. I just find an entrance and then backtrack from that, and you'll find a "silent" path.
fvng
Member
I get what you're saying, at least let me stealth kill with no penalty as long as there's no enemy alerts.
I'm replaying MGS4 right now and it's funny how in one section of the game, i'm required to go out guns blazing, but then in the next one I need to crawl my way through it. Or the fact that a building full of enemy soldiers instantly stop caring about an intruder after 90 seconds, even though they just discovered a dead body. I suppose that's what makes MGS video gamey, MGS has always been aware of fact that it's a video game and wears it as a badge of honor so I can't knock on the un-realism too much. I mean this is a series where Snake uses a ps3 controller to navigate his mark III robot
Fimbulvetr
Member
I can definitely sympathize with some of the concerns in this thread. Making the tranquilizer unsuppressed or removing it altogether would be far too stifling to the overall design, I think that's obvious, but this is still worth thinking about. I'm ok with it superseding standard weaponry, I treat lethality as a "just for fun" thing or a stress reliever/skill sharpener when I've already failed, and I think that's a fine way of handling it. MGS4 definitely had far more weapons than it needed, that I can agree on. In terms of balancing the tranquilizer, I really like the bullet drop Ground Zeroes added. The first person view shake is something I'm conflicted on, since it's a random factor, but the appeal is clear.
One thing I think shouldn't be ignored is the tranquilizer's potential as a distraction tool. It has better range than a magazine, but only works on some surfaces and has a different trajectory obviously. It still takes skill to use, and every shot you use as a distraction is one you aren't using to incapacitate an enemy, so there's interesting interplay there.
One thing I think shouldn't be ignored is the tranquilizer's potential as a distraction tool. It has better range than a magazine, but only works on some surfaces and has a different trajectory obviously. It still takes skill to use, and every shot you use as a distraction is one you aren't using to incapacitate an enemy, so there's interesting interplay there.
This is a very interesting idea, I imagine it working much like the "get down" command you can issue after holding an enemy up. I don't think having enemies initiate a caution phase after waking up or waking another enemy up would be problematic, can anyone think of a reason it would be, aside from generally making things tougher?
Encouraging "no traces" play would be a great thing, I agree. The no weapons used challenge doesn't require you to be stealthy, which makes it pretty much a joke. Adding a challenge that doesn't allow you to interact with enemies outside of distractions would be great. Maybe even one that doesn't allow you to interact with them at all. This is all assuming that The Phantom Pain even has challenges at all, it's hard to imagine how that'll work in an open game structure!
Like someone already said, it comes down to balancing ammo. I already run out of ammo on my more trigger-happy playthroughs in GZ but I think they should limit ammo even more.
The whole system with sleep-darts not causing alarms and enemies on the ground never getting back up etc. are silly and kind of broken but that's more an issue with the overall mechanics than any single weapon.
In GZ I would probably give the player 14 darts and none found on the base. You would still have about 25 enemies even if you hit people in the head with every dart. The enemies would stay unconscious for the duration of the mission, but if they are found or aren't put to sleep (heh) fast enough, an alarm would be raised. So if you hit someone in the torso you need to shoot them again fast.
The whole system with sleep-darts not causing alarms and enemies on the ground never getting back up etc. are silly and kind of broken but that's more an issue with the overall mechanics than any single weapon.
In GZ I would probably give the player 14 darts and none found on the base. You would still have about 25 enemies even if you hit people in the head with every dart. The enemies would stay unconscious for the duration of the mission, but if they are found or aren't put to sleep (heh) fast enough, an alarm would be raised. So if you hit someone in the torso you need to shoot them again fast.
Using the Tranq gun is exactly the same mechanic.
It's a cheap cop out and i agree with the OP, that they should do without it.
If you want to do a no-kill run, you should just avoid enemies or be forced to find more clever ways than simply shooting them with a gun that just happens to not "kill" them (but totally has the same practical results).
Unless you're worried for the wellbeing of the polygonal puppets.
i think ground zeroes actually strikes a better balance with the tranq gun than previous games.
first of all you've got the effective range and bullet drop mechanics meaning you can't really just go into first person mode and take out every enemy as far as the eye can see. you either need to know the ins and outs of how the bullet drop works to be effective at a distance.
and secondly, especially applicable on hard, you're not given a tremendous amount of ammunition and there are only select locations that have tranq ammo available, and there's always a degree of risk of going after it.
then again there's no risk of the suppressor breaking, but you've got to tip some elements in the player's favour in the name of proper balance
as for ghost runs, i believe there's a trial that is basically, no alerts, no kills, no weapons/items used. i wouldn't mind some proper incentive like a reward to do a play-through like that.
first of all you've got the effective range and bullet drop mechanics meaning you can't really just go into first person mode and take out every enemy as far as the eye can see. you either need to know the ins and outs of how the bullet drop works to be effective at a distance.
and secondly, especially applicable on hard, you're not given a tremendous amount of ammunition and there are only select locations that have tranq ammo available, and there's always a degree of risk of going after it.
then again there's no risk of the suppressor breaking, but you've got to tip some elements in the player's favour in the name of proper balance
as for ghost runs, i believe there's a trial that is basically, no alerts, no kills, no weapons/items used. i wouldn't mind some proper incentive like a reward to do a play-through like that.
MR BLACKMAGIK
Member
Like other have stated, if you play on Hard the tranq gun is not OP. If you are specifiaclly talking about Normal then yes it does become OP and makes all other guns/forms of stealth kind of pointless. But if your only complaint is that it makes the game to easy, go to Hard.
Various Artists
Banned
The thing that I think is funny is you can use the tranq gun the whole time you play but then when you see later cinematics it's back to the rifle. I remember that happening in mgs4 too.
Polioliolio
Member
I exclusively use the tranquilizer gun... so I completely understand your point.
Maybe they could design themselves a few more way to be nonlethal without just handing it to you.
Maybe they could design themselves a few more way to be nonlethal without just handing it to you.
The problem I find with using a tranq gun in MGS, is that it take away part of the challenge when it comes to no lethal KQ in the game. Take Splinter Cell for exampel. There, you need to get in close to take out the guards. I also want the silliancer to break down. Like it did in MGS3. It made it more of a challenge.
disappeared
Banned
Did not know you can instant-KO guards with magazines, holy shit. This changes everything.
KojiKnight
Member
Tranq makes the game easier... Ergo play on a harder setting. One of the first things you lose in harder difficulties is the tranq (and even the ones where you don't lose it, it greatly reduces the amount of time they are knocked out).
This really comes off as a stealth "normal mode is too easy!" thread.
This really comes off as a stealth "normal mode is too easy!" thread.
Noisepurge
Member
The only problem i have with the OP tranquilizer guns is the pinpoint accuracy 
Atleast in GZ the range is nerfed so thats good. I would just give it that shotgun style crosshair so getting those headshots would be riskier.
Atleast in GZ the range is nerfed so thats good. I would just give it that shotgun style crosshair so getting those headshots would be riskier.
MiamiWesker
Member
Huh? It's super easy to beat any level using other weapons. I assume you mean to get a good score, then yeah the tranq gun is the only s rank weapon.
MiamiWesker
Member
I loved that mgs4 had a tranq version of many different guns, it actually made a no kill run fun cause you could use more than the tranq. They better bring that back for MGSV. Playing the whole game with a hand gun is not fun.
That said I hate no kill runs, no fun in that. I try to kill as many as possible, clear a level of enemies.
That said I hate no kill runs, no fun in that. I try to kill as many as possible, clear a level of enemies.
bigboss370
Member
there aren't infinite enemies.
also completely disagree with OP, tranq gun is awesome. Has low ammo so you're forced to consider other tactics. It also has temporary effect in GZ.
