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I want to talk about " super easy mode " or " story " difficulty in game

I think it's primarily because combat is such a well-tested and highly-developed core system. It's natural that basing game concepts around combat or action of some kind - whether that combat is shooting guys, entering into melee combat with them, or defeating them in a kind of abstract strategy / board game - would result in games with a variety of fluid, ever-evolving situations (by this I mean the variety of ways a combat scenario in even a relatively simplistic third-person shooter like Uncharted can be resolved). That's why combat works so well as a kind of core for so many games - puzzles are more static, running away or hiding (with no option to fight back) from enemies is always going to be more simplistic than fighting them, making a game out of convincing dialogue-only interactions (like, nothing but situations you have to defuse by talking your way out) is probably outside the scope of games today for various reasons, and so on. And it's not as though we have completely mined the potential of combat in games, either, so I don't really think there's a problem with so many games being based around it.

(If you think a game has too many repetitive fights - the problem is not that there are too many fights, but that the individual fights are not good enough. A good game - let's throw out Resident Evil 4, since it's usually brought out as a hallmark of pacing and variety in action games - will do a good job of mixing things up and keeping combat engaging for the duration of its length.
Agree on combat meaning that an enemy AI provides a responsive opponent and branching experiences etc through that.

I've always liked the investigatory parts of Resident Evil more, the suspense, than the actual combat itself. I thought it was a real shame last gen that LA Noire didn't do a very good job of the interview mechanics and Heavy Rain was heavily flawed too, as stuff like crime scene investigation, interrogation etc could have really set an interesting path for cinematic/investigative thrillers in games, and that's something that obviously has a huge market.
 
i used to play narrative driven games on the easiest difficulty all the time until "the dark souls era" taught me he joy of skill building and reward. so i'm sympathetic to anybody who'd want to play that way or these kind of options in general

ultimately i think you're doing yourself a disservice going that route (unless the gameplay is just crap anyway) but some people want to just kick back and do something with more interactivity than a movie allows. no harm in denying them that
 
I'm not sure you need to take up the shield and try to protect developers from the trauma of being forced to implement optional difficulty settings in their games though.

Mostly I just dislike the viewpoint that giving the player complete control over the game they play is an absolute good that can never be argued against due to being a morally superior stance. Some people take this topic to weird extremes.

I've always liked the investigatory parts of Resident Evil more, the suspense, than the actual combat itself. I thought it was a real shame last gen that LA Noire didn't do a very good job of the interview mechanics and Heavy Rain was heavily flawed too, as stuff like crime scene investigation, interrogation etc could have really set an interesting path for cinematic/investigative thrillers in games, and that's something that obviously has a huge market.

I really like the exploration in classic Resident Evil too, but I don't think it's a great example because it couldn't function without the combat. The core of those games is having to juggle items mandatory to progression with items that help you in combat (weapons, ammo, and healing), the idea being that the better you are at fighting enemies (or evading them, which is sometimes harder), the less inventory space you need to devote to optional items. So I think the only reason those games work is because they have such a strong emphasis on combat - without ammo management, the games would lose their tension and flexibility.
 
My Uncharted experience has always been strictly through the standard Normal difficulty. I moved it up to Hard for the NDC, and was still enjoying myself.

I've never even seen an Uncharted game on the easiest difficulty. Makes me curious how far they actually go to make things easier in both combat and exploration, if at all for the latter. I know Uncharted 4 added a lot of QoL stuff even on the normal difficulty, such as the ability to hold the action button during a quicktime event instead of rapidly pressing a button. It's things like that I absolutely appreciate, and will gladly use to make certain parts less of a struggle.
 
Turn that around - if you love and respect the experiences you've gotten from games, why do you value the idea of other people having a watered-down version of them? Like I've said, difficulty is inherent to having game mechanics (which is to say it is inherent to games). A higher degree of difficulty makes interaction more meaningful (since it pressures the player to engage more deeply with the game and develop a stronger understanding of its systems).
Difficulty is relative. What's difficult for me may not be difficult for you, my neighbor, or my grandmother. Having a wider spectrum of difficulty options, including ones that would make a game extremely easy for you, allows people to find the level of challenge that's approrpriate for their motivations and experiences. And it's patronizing to call an experience watered-down just because it would be easy and thus less valuable for you. In a lot of cases, the newness of controller input is enough to make an "easy mode" somewhat challenging. Again, it's about perspectives—and realizing that other ones exist.

I'm absolutely not going to argue that aesthetics aren't extremely important - the themes games are packaged in is also a huge part of their appeal. Even going back to 1985, Ghosts 'n Goblins would not be so thrilling if it weren't for the knight-fights-demons-and-saves-the-princess setting that the game couldn't communicate with just raw collision data. But aesthetics and mechanics have to come together to create a strong, cohesive experience - and a certain degree of challenge is necessary to make games interesting on the mechanical level.
I also like challenge, but it's not a necessary component. I really liked Tacoma and found the mechanic you use to navigate AR recordings interesting. However, no part of that gameplay is "challenging" in the way you mean.

The first example that comes to mind is Bayonetta, so I'll throw that out there. It's a really complex action game, most of its appeal being derived from the complicated interactions Bayonetta has with the enemy characters you fight - interactions that cannot exist if the game is simplified to the point where anyone can play it. Now, Bayonetta does have a tourist mode where you can play one-handed and you have regenerating health - so understandably Platinum decided it was a smart move, business-wise, to make sure no one would play the game, bounce off the combat, and walk away unsatisfied. The game's very easy mode lets you blow through the game, experience all its cutscenes, and watch spectacular-looking battles - but can it really be said to be the same experience a player would get from playing normal mode? I'm not especially personally bothered by the existence of Bayonetta's very easy mode - it's easy to accept that things like that are the result of games being more expensive than ever - but I think it leaves a mildly bad aftertaste to have a mode that basically says "yeah, this game is really complex and deep, but actually all those systems are just ignorable! Here, just watch the game play itself." I think there's also something to be said for the fact that the existence of Bayonetta's easy modes probably deterred some people who would have otherwise stuck with normal - so undoubtedly some players robbed themselves of the experience of learning how to play the game (which is just as much a part of the overall Bayonetta experience as progressing through the game and seeing new content is) and just dropped down to tourist mode.
No, it's not the same experience. But neither is my experience with Bayonetta vs. yours, regardless of difficulty. Our various experiences with art are personal first and foremost and experiencing it differently doesn't inherently cheapen or enhance the experience. But those options should be there so that the maximum number of people can have their experience.

That's why people defend the Souls series' lack of difficulty options. I'm repeating myself, but those games do not debase themselves at all for the sake of letting the player power through - they respect themselves enough that they won't let you see their content until you understand their game systems, and they respect you enough that they expect you to. That is the reason why fans of the games are so defensive on this subject (and why the "ugh, Souls fans" comments in this thread are so embarrassing tbh). Not all "experiences" are created equal. Someone might have a hard day at work and decide they want to just cruise through Uncharted on Explorer mode afterwards, and that's okay - but the experience they had is not really equivalent to that of someone who played through on Crushing. Just like playing Demon's Souls with a trainer is really not anything like playing it normally.
And, once again, this sounds like "get your casual hands off of my hardcore games" nonsense. Why should someone not be able to play Dark Souls for the other things it offers if the difficulty of combat is an insurmountable obstacle, or if the time required to surmount it is not available to them? It's not a matter of a game "debasing" or "respecting" itself. That's all just dressed-up language intended to put certain games in a corner and tell outsiders not to go near them.

To deny that difficulty cannot be a core part of a game's appeal is to show a fundamental misunderstanding of video games. I think I've reiterated this point a lot so I don't want to come across as redundant, but to say "difficulty is not a necessary component of any game" is exactly the same as saying "mechanics are not a necessary component of any game". The Souls games aren't just difficult for the sake of being hard, they are hard because that difficulty sells the experience of going on an arduous journey through a dangerous fantasy world. The only reason the Souls games' aesthetic elements (art, music, story, etc.) work is because you, as the player, exist within this fantasy world, and through your play you come to understand that it is a genuinely dangerous and harrowing place. Slap on an easy mode setting in the main menu and suddenly the game loses a lot of its verisimilitude.
I never said it can't be a core part of a game's appeal. In fact, I said that it's a core part of my experience with certain games. For all these words and bold assertions, you've failed to argue why it matters that everyone experiences the exact same game you do. The idea that everything about the Souls games only works because of the difficulty is ridiculous to me, but I suppose that point is subjective.

Basically, I don't think "everyone should be able to have this experience" is necessarily a positive thing. Some experiences are just inherently exclusionary and exclusive. Arguing that game mechanics aren't an essential part of a game (and that people should be able to remove them from a game at will) is more or less like arguing that films with strong elements of horror or tragedy are worse off for not being something that everyone can enjoy equally.
And again, no two people will have the exact same experience, ever, regardless of difficulty. Pushing for more accessibility options is about allowing more people to have their experience with a game—not yours or mine. Obviously no piece of art can be accessed by everyone, but it's about finding ways to maximize that number.

I think so. They aren't without merit, but I think games with less interactivity like that can never be as engaging or as meaningful as, say, a good Bayonetta or Fire Emblem game.
Ah, Tacoma and What Remains of Edith Finch cannot be as meaningful or engaging as Fire Emblem. Got it. LOL. I wonder how you square that with the fact that real people who have also experienced those games find them more meaningful and engaging than Fire Emblem. It's almost as if...we all experience art differently.
 
I forgot to talk about how Silent Hill made a different difficulty for puzzle and combat, a thing you could customize when starting the game
 
There was also people who complained about the optional driver assistance on Mario Kart 8 Deluxe, a game where casual multiplayer is encouraged.

The more options the better. You are not representative of everyone who wants to play the games you like, and options which help more people enjoy the game are fine by me.

Also can probably help people get into more series or games in general. I know if I am trying to get through a long series I will play the older titles on easier settings so I am not playing forever, adding these options on newer games and remasters can only help.

If someone who would normally just watch someone else in their household play a game because they enjoy the story elements or presentation then a very easy difficulty mode that could compel them to play for themselves.
 
If anyone from FROM Software reads this thread, don't put easy mode or anything in your games. They are perfect the way the are.
 
They are barely games, yeah.

Actually, I don't know what Oxenfree is, I was mainly refereing to Telltale games.
Video games by definition are "a game played by electronically manipulating images produced by a computer program on a television screen or other display screen."

If a game has to be challenging to be a game than your definition is literally wrong.
 
Let's go back to 1985, except in an alternate universe. Super Mario Bros. here is exactly the same as the one we got - except at any point you can press select to enable god mode. In this state Mario is invincible and can fly freely through the air. Everything else about the game is the same, so you can play the game in an identical manner to our SMB1 if you want - but the option to make Mario a god is always there, explicitly pointed out in the manual as one of his standard abilities alongside running and jumping.

It's an extreme example, but think about how something like that would affect the perspective of someone back then playing Mario for the first time - how it would change the way they would view all the game's obstacles and challenges - versus how someone playing the actual SMB1 would. If you do, you'll understand that options are not always good, and the end user / player should not always necessarily have complete control over the game they play.
Having iddqd, idclip and others hardly hurt Doom and it's legendary status that it has in gaming. It offered difficulty options too. Some people just wanted to shoot demons in the face, maybe as a stress relief. Also most games today are quite different than SMB1. They offer "more" so to speak, no disrespect ment to SMB it's still excellent game imo. But all games are not just about jumping over obstacles. I do personally enjoy taking on the challenge in platformers. But sometimes for games like Mafia 3 that I mentioned earlier, I'm there for everything else but challenge.
Video games by definition are "a game played by electronically manipulating images produced by a computer program on a television screen or other display screen."

If a game has to be challenging to be a game than your definition is literally wrong.
I take issue with this, text adventures are games too. Or if text is considered images then sure.
 
Video games by definition are "a game played by electronically manipulating images produced by a computer program on a television screen or other display screen."

If a game has to be challenging to be a game than your definition is literally wrong.

By that definition writing a status report is a Video game.
 
Video games by definition are "a game played by electronically manipulating images produced by a computer program on a television screen or other display screen."

If a game has to be challenging to be a game than your definition is literally wrong.

I never said they weren't game. Also, that definition requires video games to a least be games. which are defined as "a form of play or sport, especially a competitive one played according to rules and decided by skill, strength, or luck." So yeah, they're games, but barely.
 
YouTube let's you choose dialogue options now?

That's pretty damn cool.
Yeah, you haven't heard about the new feature where you can make narrative choices and explore a game world in the way you choose while watching a gameplay video?
 
I never said they weren't game. Also, that definition requires video games to a least be games. which are defined as "a form of play or sport, especially a competitive one played according to rules and decided by skill, strength, or luck." So yeah, they're games, but barely.
Competitive games are games too sure but don't forget

Definition of game:

1
a (1) : activity engaged in for diversion or amusement

Not all games are about winning or losing, why should video games be.
 
I agree with the more options the better crowd, someone else playing on an easier or harder mode then I did doesn't affect me at all.
 
I never would have finished Witcher 3 if it didn't have an easy option. I hated the combat but loved the story, so I am glad that the easy option was present. I think most games that try to be story-heavy should include these types of options.
 
Competitive games are games too sure but don't forget

Definition of game:

1
a (1) : activity engaged in for diversion or amusement

Not all games are about winning or losing, why should video games be.

I can't think of to many games that don't have SOME sort of challenge, whether it's through luck or skill. Again though, I never said they flat out weren't games.
 
So don't spend a dime renting or buying the game. YouTube.com is right around the corner.

You are not even trying.

The point of not to skip the game, or have the game be played for you like a movie.

You could have the choice to enjoy the scenery, walk in a game, enjoy it's universe, NPC interactions, animations and art, but not wanting to bother with combat for example.

People play Fallout with science / speech build for that reason, because they don't want to fight all the time
 
I wish Mirror's Edge Catalyst had the option to change difficulties to a non combat mode, because the combat is fucking shit and is likely to make me give up on it.
 
For some, games are all about the challenge.

For others, games are all about having fun.

These two camps generally speak different languages.

I'm on team challenge.
 
I can't think of to many games that don't have SOME sort of challenge, whether it's through luck or skill. Again though, I never said they flat out weren't games.
Sure. But you can still think of some. One would be Chinese Whispers / Telephone. I'm not sure how the game is called where you live, in here it's "broken telephone" when translated. The point isn't to convey the message along accurately by whispers which could be considered to be the challenge, the point is to just have fun and get some laughs from how the message changes on the way. And to some people simply moving in a 3D video game while controlling the camera is also actually a challenge. And while I still keep quoting you, I don't mean to hammer it down for you. It's also for people to read who might have very narrow view on what video games are or can be.
But for me challenge in games is what makes it fun.
Which is why you play challenging games and choose the hardest difficulty option.
 
Options are great!

What I want to know, though, is. Since options are so great, and obviously it's silly to force someone to sit through the part of a game they don't enjoy to get to the one they do, where's my menu option in Uncharted to autoskip all cutscenes and mute all voiceovers?

What's that, you say? The interaction is negotiable but the packed-in B movie is a must see? Options aren't good when they aren't a shortcut to things a certain age of dev would rather than be doing than working 80-hour crunch cycles to appease the core Doritos demographic?

Why, I never.
 
Uncharted with far less tedious combat (like, enemies that can't magically take multiple headshots, basically all enemies should have realistic damage thresholds and at most be able to take 2 bullets) would be so much more enjoyable for me.

As is I can't stand the drawn out and repetitive combat with bullet sponges so I stopped playing the games and started just watching the stories on YouTube.

If they'd add more of an element of skill and risk to the climbing sections that'd be good too.
 
The reason people feel this strongly with Dark Souls is because it makes the game what it is. Without the difficulty, there is literally nothing. You walk around, whack some enemies, they die, and then what? There's almost no dialogue in a Souls game, so it's not about the story. And if you want scenery and open worldness, Dragon Age and Elder Scrolls do it better. You play Dark Souls because of the difficulty.

If there were an easy mode, the very people who want an easy mode would play the game, hate it, slam it, and it would be getting even more unnecessary criticism simply because they're playing a different game - one that simply doesn't "work" because it pleases no-one.

The point is, not all games need an easy mode. As another example, consider something like Super Meat Boy or those other "I Wanna Be The Guy" style games. What exactly is the point of an easy mode? The game exists literally to be hard.


Strongly agree especially to the bolded.
 
Why the heck would you get upset over this? Why are you against adding easier difficulties?

It doesn't affect you unless you play that difficulty. You don't like it? Simple. Don't access it!

Not everyone has the temperament, patience, time or skill to play hard settings. If it allows more people to enjoy the game/experience, good for them.

This idiotic game difficulty elitism...

I'm with you 100% and honestly it depends on the game.

I think Uncharted controls and plays like shit, but I find the adventure fun to watch and run around in so I play it on the easiest difficulty.

There are other games like the recent DMC or Horizon I play on the harder difficulties because I like the actual combat mechanics.
 
Been saying this for years ever since Alex Hutchinson (AC 3 director) lambasted easy mode in games back in 2012.

Glad to see games are now accommodating for more kinds of people.
 
Options are great!

What I want to know, though, is. Since options are so great, and obviously it's silly to force someone to sit through the part of a game they don't enjoy to get to the one they do, where's my menu option in Uncharted to autoskip all cutscenes and mute all voiceovers?

What's that, you say? The interaction is negotiable but the packed-in B movie is a must see? Options aren't good when they aren't a shortcut to things a certain age of dev would rather than be doing than working 80-hour crunch cycles to appease the core Doritos demographic?

Why, I never.
Well first of all, cutscenes and voiceovers won't prevent you from progressing in the game. I agree that games should have many different sliders for audio options, so people can tune sound effects, music, dialogue and even ambience separately. Many do have this. Unskippable cutscenes can be annoying. But I don't think it's very common actually and to my knowledge it's sometimes done to mask loading.
 
Do it with whatever you want, but leave Dark Souls the fuck alone.

Why?

I love Bloodborne for its incredible atmosphere, music, visuals, and combat.


But the difficulty and the lack of QoL stuff makes me extremely hesitant to play (edit: beat) it.

I don't see how adding difficulty modes will ruin the game for ANYONE. It is simply making it more accessible.
 
I played through Nier Automata on easy with automated combat. I was pressed for time and wanted play for the music, art direction and story. I enjoyed it. I actually think the automated system could be adapted to make very satisfying strategy RPG.
 
It adds a choice of how to play a game and doesn't take anything away. No one loses something, so it's good to have another option, always.
 
Strongly agree especially to the bolded.

I think it needs exploration beyond just the market positioning of particular games. Let's take a MOBA, for example; there is literally no narrative and no content, just pieces moving around a board, the same as a traditional board game. You literally can't make a MOBA that hands you a victory against an AI opponent and dripfeeds you story, since the distinguishing factors of the genre vs. an RTS are no AI opponents and no progressing story: squarepegging the "I just want to see it all" experience in is as alien to the design as putting Ornstein and Smough in the attic in Gone Home would be.
 
I think it needs exploration beyond just the market positioning of particular games. Let's take a MOBA, for example; there is literally no narrative and no content, just pieces moving around a board, the same as a traditional board game. You literally can't make a MOBA that hands you a victory against an AI opponent and dripfeeds you story, since the distinguishing factors of the genre vs. an RTS are no AI opponents and no progressing story: squarepegging the "I just want to see it all" experience in is as alien to the design as putting Ornstein and Smough in the attic in Gone Home would be.
I haven't played it, but Dota 2 added campaign. And the game also has an option to play with bots and you can choose the difficulty for those. From ridiculously easy to hard as nails. I have a friend who would only play bot matches, no PVP at all.
 
Well first of all, cutscenes and voiceovers won't prevent you from progressing in the game. I agree that games should have many different sliders for audio options, so people can tune sound effects, music, dialogue and even ambience separately. Many do have this. Unskippable cutscenes can be annoying. But I don't think it's very common actually.

Let's take the fairly common situation of games which "ease you in" by unlocking systems as you progress through the plot. FF12, brought up earlier in this thread, is a great one! What if I just want to play that awesome SP FFXI with a full set of play options? Why do I need to watch a delicious twink in an Aladdin getup run and jump and explore his brother complex vs. a friend's brother complex for 30 hours before I can fill out my gambit page and go have an epic duel with Yiazmat?

Why is there no call for THIS to be a menu option, for boss rush to be unlocked and waiting on first boot?

I haven't played it, but Dota 2 added campaign. And it also has an option to play with bots and you can choose the difficulty for those. From ridiculously easy to hard as nails.

I have played it. Bots are training dummies with still absolutely no story progression and no reason to play a second game other than competition, and the campaign is an RTS in the DotA 2 engine just like DotA was a MOBA in the WC3 engine.
 
Let's take the fairly common situation of games which "ease you in" by unlocking systems as you progress through the plot. FF12, brought up earlier in this thread, is a great one! What if I just want to play that awesome SP FFXI with a full set of play options? Why do I need to watch a delicious twink in an Aladdin getup run and jump and explore his brother complex vs. a friend's brother complex for 30 hours before I can fill out my gambit page and go have an epic duel with Yiazmat?

Why is there no call for THIS to be a menu option, for boss rush to be unlocked and waiting on first boot?
Sorry I have no idea what this means, I haven't played FF12. But I'd assume that playing the game on easy compared to hard or other way around wouldn't change what you are describing. I don't think anyone would oppose having boss rush modes for games that have bosses. Sounds sweet. Like in Bayonetta it's frustrating that you need to play the dumb space harrier bit before getting to fight Jeanne.
I have played it. Bots are training dummies with still absolutely no story progression and no reason to play a second game other than competition, and the campaign is an RTS in the DotA 2 engine just like DotA was a MOBA in the WC3 engine.
Ah, gotcha. Was it good?
 
Sorry I have no idea about this, I haven't played FF12. But I'd assume that playing the game on easy compared to hard or other way around wouldn't change what you are describing.

Exactly, that's my point! There is very, very much ink spilled and thought spent about how to make the baroque goulashes of buyourcontentithasCONTENTyoucanCATALOGit that pass for modern single-player gaming deliver every vertex, note, and pixel of that content and justify their $110 with season pass price tags.

But on the flipside, there is not so much as a fart in the wind for people who don't care and want to interact with the crunch.

If the concern was with options and pleasing every playstyle, boss rushes and full-unlock starts would be default menu options as prolific as selecting "Normal" from the list presented Normal/Hard/Extreme/Are You Sure Bro This One You May Have To Reload A Non-Quicksave. But they're almost nowhere to be seen off the bat, and are vanishingly rare even as DLC or unlockables.

And it's not a "the market speaks" or an "average, non-hardcore users demand" thing, either. League of Legends removed its final 20 seconds of Actual In-Game Plot a couple months ago, and absolutely none remains. League of Legends also has more active users than Steam, as in the entire platform. And most of them were nongamers before getting started.
 
Also, Jennifer Hepler made quite an interesting point (back in 2012!), why do we pretty much always get the option to skip dialogue and cutscenes whenever we want, but never ever combat or gunfights? Is killing people considered an inherently more worthwhile endeavour than talking to them?! I've never thought about that.

I strongly contest that "gameplay" is "shooting" and "cutscenes" are "talking to people".

Gameplay is intrinsically different from cutscenes.
Games wouldn't exist if that wasn't true.
If you can skip all gameplay, you should've made a visual novel or movie in the first place.
 
Exactly, that's my point! There is very, very much ink spilled and thought spent about how to make the baroque goulashes of buyourcontentithasCONTENTyoucanCATALOGit that pass for modern single-player gaming deliver every vertex, note, and pixel of that content and justify their $110 with season pass price tags.

But on the flipside, there is not so much as a fart in the wind for people who don't care and want to interact with the crunch.

If the concern was with options and pleasing every playstyle, boss rushes and full-unlock starts would be default menu options as prolific as selecting "Normal" from the list presented Normal/Hard/Extreme/Are You Sure Bro This One You May Have To Reload A Non-Quicksave. But they're almost nowhere to be seen off the bat, and are vanishingly rare even as DLC or unlockables.

And it's not a "the market speaks" or an "average, non-hardcore users demand" thing, either. League of Legends removed its final 20 seconds of Actual In-Game Plot a couple months ago, and absolutely none remains. League of Legends also has more active users than Steam, as in the entire platform. And most of them were nongamers before getting started.
Full ability/item, unlimited money what have you unlock sounds like an easy mode though, no shame in that ofcourse. And competitive multiplayer games aren't going anywhere, those have only got more prevalent. We are getting multiplayer only titles more than ever, those are all about the gameplay.
I strongly contest that "gameplay" is "shooting" and "cutscenes" are "talking to people".

Gameplay is intrinsically different from cutscenes.
Games wouldn't exist if that wasn't true.
If you can skip all gameplay, you should've made a visual novel or movie in the first place.
Gameplay is more than combat which you are talking about.
 
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