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[MEsoJD]

This guy clearly has all the answers - anyone who doesn't share his views is living in ignorance.

No, not at all. It's just that, once the scientific method is discovered/applied in society, religion loses relevance in terms of progression. god and religion are a natural conclusion in the early development of most societies. People trying to comprehend the environment around them before discovering science. Answers through god/religion aren't verifiable. Faith is something to keep people grounded. Thanks to the internet (free flow of information), the idea of god and religion are not safe from criticism and can eventually die.

 

[Snowman Prophet of Doom]

I don't "wish" I believed in god, because I don't believe there are any gods and want my worldview and opinions as attuned to reality as is possible for a human. But I would be lying if I said that existence, particularly my relationship to the concept of the true and total zero that death must be in a godless universe, hadn't become quite a bit more onerous and oppressive, in many ways, since I discarded faith around the end of high school/beginning of college. I still have experiences that can only be described as spiritual, in the sense that I get a visceral, deeply emotional sense of being part of something much larger than myself, but still, I do wish sometimes for the clarity, confidence, and purpose that religious people can so often act and approach life with.

 

[Lothar]

That's a terrible way to think of it. Of course it's meaningless. We're a tiny blip in the history of the universe, out on some rock that no other civilization will likely ever find before the Earth dies. Again, just the off-chance we get to experience this life is amazing in itself. Why not enjoy that chance, rather than grumble about how you don't get to go to some special place with endless icecream and hookers after you die?

It is a terrible way to think of it but I don't understand the thought process behind thinking any other way. How can you not think long term? Why is getting the chance to experience amazing when in a short time, it'll be the same as if you never got to experience it? How can anyone not be bothered when a loved one dies and all of their memories of you are erased from the universe? How can anyone see that as a positive and say that makes life special, rather than wishing they believed otherwise? That doesn't make sense to me at all.

Just seems like a very patronizing way to think. That if they found out that you, their ROCK, was an atheist that they would be shaken to their core and cast aside their religion to live in misery with you.

Thanks for the laugh. I needed that. "Their ROCK" Hilarious post.

 

[Alcoremortis]

Positive things happen to positive people. Negative people draw negative events into their lives. There's "coincidences" that happen that make me question whether anything is based on chance.

I do believe that some things are destined to happen. Like certain events are encoded into the Universe.

Also, it might have been designed by some higher race of beings. Bound with a set of rules that make planets and stars and life possible.

"Logic" when it comes to human belief toward the Universe has never been set in stone. 100 years ago it wasn't logical to think there were billions of galaxies out there.

The luckiest people I've met tend to be the people who plan far in advance for unfortunate occurrences. I guess some people are just lucky, right?

I think people make their own fortunes. If you're a jerk to everyone you meet, nobody will step up for you when times get tough. If you're nice and go out of your way to help others, people will want to put in a good word because you're nice. No magic, just social bonds.

 

[waypoetic]

Rest assured, God believes in you.

D'aaaaw.

 

[shireman]

Do you have any evidence to back any of this up?

I'm positive. I look at negative things (big or small) as a means to positive events later. The reasoning behind every event is unknowable.

I know negative people who draw it to themselves. I'm sure a lot of people do.

Everything seems too perfect in the Universe for it not to be designed in some way.

I bring social class into the picture because your statement about believing in the idea that positive people beget positive lives and negative people negative ones is A. absurd and sounds like bullshit from the Secret, but also B. basically exactly the reasoning that caste systems use to explain to poor and otherwise "bottom rung" of the social ladder people why they are where they are.

You're linking a positive/negative life to social class. People in lower classes can have positive lives.

This is all pretty much bullshit, which illustrates why religion is also bullshit. Speculation + hope is a bitch. Your mind does so many backflips trying to believe. People need to stop trying to make sense of what they'll never know. If you do believe that such magic exists in the universe at least give it the credit of being all powerful by not trying to figure it out with a feeble mind.

For all we know religion can be spot on. No one knows the truth.

 

[efyu_lemonardo]

It is a terrible way to think of it but I don't understand the thought process behind thinking any other way. How can you not think long term? Why is getting the chance to experience amazing when in a short time, it'll be the same as if you never got to experience it? How can anyone not be bothered when a loved one dies and all of their memories of you are erased from the universe? How can anyone see that as a positive and say that makes life special, rather than wishing they believed otherwise? That doesn't make sense to me at all.

Then make something of your life. Leave something behind that is meaningful not just to the people who knew you. It doesn't have to be something huge or revolutionary. Every little piece of progress counts.
Even the tiny things we tend to take for granted have a huge impact on us when examined more closely. Think of the guy who came up with adding sesame seeds to bread - I'm not even joking when I say he has brought joy to millions and millions!

 

[la flama blanca]

I'm positive. I look at negative things (big or small) as a means to positive events later. The reasoning behind every event is unknowable.

I know negative people who draw it to themselves. I'm sure a lot of people do.

Everything seems too perfect in the Universe for it not to be designed in some way.



You're linking a positive/negative life to social class. People in lower classes can have positive lives.





For all we know religion can be spot on. No one knows the truth.

So I assume you still believe in Santa Clause? Or the easter bunny? Chances are about the same.

 

[injurai]

I mean, I would totally eat crow. I have nothing wrong with trying to live a more moral and ethical life. I fully except humans aren't capable of being perfect, but we have much we should be working towards. In working with the human condition, we see many faults committed in the name of religion. We see religious teachings leading people astray from the reality that we live in. Our efforts to understand our world have brought us to science and it's observable improved people's lives. We have also used science to damaged our world. So it's an ever changing process of trying to accomplish things within the laws of our existence, and mistakes are made.

But come the day when I truly do have conclusive proof of a god, and if the god truly is benevolent and wishes for me to be in some sort of union with him which would alleviate all humanly woes. Then I would do more than believe, I would know him has truth. But for now the only truth is one in which I abstain from putting faith in unfalsifiable claims. If there was truly a god that understood the plight of humanity, I don't think it would fault me not wanting to consciously submit myself to irrationality. If it was a vindictive egotistical being, then I wouldn't want to be submitted to eternal serfdom, and I'd question it's divinity.

However the question of where did this god come from would still exist, and it if evolved out of the universe and then in turn created us I would not consider it to be my keeper nor would I call it a god.

 

[Fenderputty]

Most arguments would probably be structured something like (not saying I agree with this perfectly, this is just how I've seen them approached):

Jesus was most likely a real, historical figure (even Bart Ehrman agrees on this).

What kind of people die and are martyred horribly for a guy they knew was dead?

What caused the movement of Christianity to grow so powerfully in the midst of this violence if it was all "lies to help my feelies?"

What kind of ancient religion uses women as their eye witness source (they wren't considered reputable in that time)?

What other religion, at it's core (Jesus) confronts the very power structures and religious institutions that it has created?

If you do believe in God and want to decide to follow a specific religion, what religion has a more compelling case for being real?

Ultimately though, the real answer for all of us is. We can't know. There's not a locked, for sure reason.

This would be my thoughts regarding those arguments.

1. I think he existed. Believing he existed has nothing to do with believing he's the son of God. There's not much, outside of Christian texts, that confirm his existence anyway. A couple references in Roman texts and a couple in Jewish Texts, but I do think he existed.

2. This seems silly. Just because he believed he was the Son of God doesn't mean he actually was. See every cultist leader or person who's predicted the end of time by speaking to god.

3. Who knows? How quickly Christianity spreads doesn't validate its authenticity. Currently Islam is the fastest Growing religion.

4. It's correct because a woman reported it is when at the time nobody would use a woman's testimony as evidence is not a logical argument.

5. What Christians are critical of the power structures within Christianity today?

6. Why is Christianity the most compelling case for being real?


I think you're correct in that we can't "know". Why a god exists and which god to follow are not things that can be scrutinized on a rational level. Feelings and "gut emotion" have to come into play.

I think it's interesting to note that Christianity has seen declining numbers in the US as the "non affiliated" numbers grow. I think as more religious skeptics get a podium to talk on this will continue to increase.

 

[Tremis]

Most arguments would probably be structured something like (not saying I agree with this perfectly, this is just how I've seen them approached):

Jesus was most likely a real, historical figure (even Bart Ehrman agrees on this).

What kind of people die and are martyred horribly for a guy they knew was dead?

What caused the movement of Christianity to grow so powerfully in the midst of this violence if it was all "lies to help my feelies?"

What kind of ancient religion uses women as their eye witness source (they wren't considered reputable in that time)?

What other religion, at it's core (Jesus) confronts the very power structures and religious institutions that it has created?

If you do believe in God and want to decide to follow a specific religion, what religion has a more compelling case for being real?

Ultimately though, the real answer for all of us is. We can't know. There's not a locked, for sure reason.

Very succinct set of points. I've not seen all of these in the same place.

At any rate, not to derail from the OP but more of a point to add if it's any help:

I've had existential crises previously, mostly spurred by the thought that my consciousness is an illusion and that my decisions are really not "my decisions" and instead just random processes of the brain. Kind of a depressing business which relates to this threads discussions tangentially.

The way I got out of that mental funk was the simple thought that no matter if the preceding was true or not, I still 'feel' things as do the people around me (admittedly this is assumed).

It seemed like reason enough to go on living, helping other people and enjoying this shared journey, wherever it takes us.

Hope that helps some people.

 

[Hipster Cthulhu]

I'm positive. I look at negative things (big or small) as a means to positive events later. The reasoning behind every event is unknowable.

I know negative people who draw it to themselves. I'm sure a lot of people do.

Everything seems too perfect in the Universe for it not to be designed in some way.

So no. And as for the bullshit Universal Design argument, it is easy to say the universe is perfect from your prospective, that's like a puddle saying the hole it fills was designed for it to fit into.

 

[shireman]

So I assume you still believe in Santa Clause? Or the easter bunny? Chances are about the same.

Another pretentious response.

But you're right maybe they exist elsewhere in some other alternate reality or dimension. You don't have the answer.

 

[efyu_lemonardo]

So I assume you still believe in Santa Clause? Or the easter bunny? Chances are about the same.

Now you've got me thinking about Pratchett's excellent interpretation of this in Hogfather..

I miss him..

 

[shireman]

So no. And as for the bullshit Universal Design argument, it is easy to say the universe is perfect from your prospective, that's like a puddle saying the hole it fills was designed for it to fit into.

Maybe it was

 

[Spoo]

Everything seems too perfect in the Universe for it not to be designed in some way.

There's nothing really perfect about it. The Earth was perfect for the dinosaurs until one day it wasn't. The same is true for our species, and in fact, the Universe itself. Things have a life span, and the situation is constantly changing. That you're here, now, and able to postulate about it all is an amazing thing, but some questions don't lend themselves to answers by their very nature. Your argument is a well-worn one of personal incredulity; how is it possible that we're all here, and it's just chance? Because we are here, and we can wonder why, but it would have been just as easy for us not to be.

Could there be a God? Sure. But there doesn't *need* to be a God, necessarily, and postulating that one must exist to create 'it all' only introduces complexity rather than chiseling it away. So many things were considered the side-effects of Gods and Demons over the history of the world, and slowly but surely we removed -- through practical means -- that mysticism. Volcanoes aren't angry Gods, they're the result of plate tectonics. Likewise, life itself, can have purely explainable means which strip away the 'magic' that is usually attributed to otherworldly beings.

On topic: sometimes I do wish I had a belief in God, because I can look around and see that it does wonders for some people. Then I remind myself of all the not-so-wonderful side effects of removing personal responsibility from the equation and letting the buck stop at some unproven entity, and I snap out of it pretty quickly, reminding myself succinctly that how something makes you feel has no bearing on whether or not it's true. I wouldn't want to be in a marriage where my wife didn't love me, even if it was a perfectly happy marriage otherwise. Likewise, I don't want to put any time into believing something that 'may or may not be true' just because it gives me warm fuzzies. One of the great joys of my life is learning, and understanding what's around me. If we all just said 'God did it' when things got hard to explain, we'd be living in a much less livable world today.

Accepting that we're all eventually going to die, that our loved ones will perish, this is the price we pay for the rather strange predicament we call life and self-reflection. It's not perfect, and Gods and demons may be a method to overcome the unhappiness of that realization, but it doesn't work for me. And even if it did, I don't know if I could value bliss over the truth, even if it's a bleak, unhappy truth. God may exist, and as others say, so may Santa Claus, and if either reveal themselves to us, part of being a seeker of truth means being able to change your mind when the evidence reveals itself. That's something I'm willing to do. That's what it means to be uncertain. What I won't do, however, is make my default stance the one without any evidence on its side. Why? If there's a God, he or she or it should expect me to use the brain I've been given.

 

[Hipster Cthulhu]

Maybe it was

You have to be fucking with me, no one can be this stupid.

 

[la flama blanca]

Another pretentious response.

But you're right maybe they exist elsewhere in some other alternate reality or dimension. You don't have the answer.

It's not pretentious, its practical. You see, the problem with what you believe in is that you're just "willing" your stock into your belief. Your "will" means nothing. You are just selling speculation, there is enough bullshit speculation to go around. I need evidence.

Removing all the baseless built up speculation that exists about the "meaning of life" or "intelligent design" actually makes things pretty simple and relaxing.

 

[kiunchbb]

Positive things happen to positive people. Negative people draw negative events into their lives. There's "coincidences" that happen that make me question whether anything is based on chance.

I do believe that some things are destined to happen. Like certain events are encoded into the Universe.

Also, it might have been designed by some higher race of beings. Bound with a set of rules that make planets and stars and life possible.

"Logic" when it comes to human belief toward the Universe has never been set in stone. 100 years ago it wasn't logical to think there were billions of galaxies out there.

Positive thing doesn't draw to positive people like some kind of natural law. People that's not under depression just happen to be have more solutions to their problems. Similar to many life skills, the more difficult situation you overcome, the better and more confident you are at handling potential hardship in the future. That's why positive people had much better outlook in life.

It is not something given to you just because you do positive thinking, it is something you have to fight for every moment of your life.

 

[Seraph_Nicholas]

You'd probably feel better changing your perception of time, and it's easier then accepting religion. Me, personally, I don't think people die, or cease to exist - They're always there, right there when you remember them, as their sphere of existence intersected with yours. You, too, will never die. Your existence is indelible fact, and you will always exist, here in your allotted century or so.

 

[shireman]

You have to be fucking with me, no one can be this stupid.

haha

 

[la flama blanca]

You have to be fucking with me, no one can be this stupid.

It's not stupidity. It's part of our human nature to fuse hope and belief into the same thing. We often have those pitfalls in anything we do, but it sometimes helps us survive.
And shireman, the problem I have with your "but maybe its just real" comments is the same problem I have with people who believe in conspiracy theorists, offering up a "just maybe it's true" and somehow give it more weight than literally any other explanation is just wrong and hurts our progress towards REAL answer if ever we can even get close to one. Often times people just need to accept that you will NEVER know the answer to something and to offer up any speculation is just a waste of time.

 

[Seraph_Nicholas]

Incidentally, I do believe in god, but not for any reasons I can articulate well. I just feel like Order, itself, is unnatural and has been inflicted on a universe that was born chaotic.

 

[Ray Wonder]

I'll tell you what, I got PMs all over the place because of this thread. I'm sorry if I was misleading, but I don't want to join a religion.

Just try masturbating next time you can't sleep, OP.

And enjoy the fact that you don't have to feel guilty because Jesus isn't looking down on you being a sinner.

That's the only time that I sit up thinking like that. After I whack one off. lol. My sleep schedule was destroyed from a crazy weekend.

 

[shireman]

It's not pretentious, its practical. You see, the problem with what you believe in is that you're just "willing" your stock into your belief. Your "will" means nothing. You are just selling speculation, there is enough bullshit speculation to go around. I need evidence.

Removing all the baseless built up speculation that exists about the "meaning of life" or "intelligent design" actually makes things pretty simple and relaxing.

Your Santa Clause response was pretentious.

Of course it's speculation. No one knows the truth and I'm not claiming I do. It sounds like you guys know a lot more than I do.

I like thinking about those things.

 

[Vicetrailia]

People use god and/or religion in all combinations from the good, to the bad, and to the ugly, sometimes all at once in a matter of seconds. If anything I really feel like hell is the earth I live on now.

Infinity sounds like a fairy tale. So maybe the use is having something I trust in above humanity. I feel this way when listening to Kendrick Lamar's "Alright". I mean I get that.

 

[Hipster Cthulhu]

Your Santa Clause response was pretentious.

Of course it's speculation. No one knows the truth and I'm not claiming I do. It sounds like you guys know a lot more than I do.

I like thinking about those things.

Clearly for not very long or very logically.

 

[Beren the Empty-Handed]

You could look into non-Abrahamic religions/philosophies and see if any of those work better for you. There's more than one or two ways to obtain piece of mind, OP.

It's all about feeling secure in your place in the universe, or feeling more connected to the universe, when you start breaking this stuff down. If that's a purely scientific approach, or Judaism, or Buddhism, or just a personal philosophy that mixes and matches various things, then that's all okay. You just need to do what works for you.

If it's a sense of community that you really want then, admittedly, the Abrahamic religions do astoundingly well in that regard. But you can find that kind of close-knit feeling in many groups if you look. That doesn't sound like your issue, OP, but I'm just throwing it out there.

EDIT: Just read that you don't want to try other religions. Well, philosophy unattached from religion might do you better. It would require some reading, but it's doable.

 

[TheOctodad]

This would be my thoughts regarding those arguments.

2. This seems silly. Just because he believed he was the Son of God doesn't mean he actually was. See every cultist leader or person who's predicted the end of time by speaking to god.

I actually don't think this one is silly at all. I'm not talking about Jesus himself, I'm talking about the early church. People weren't stupid back then, they knew quite well people didn't raise from the dead. What happened to cause those early followers to be willing to die, to be fed to lions, to oppose Caesar, to take in the unwanted babies in the streets, etc.? We're not just talking immediate followers either, we're talking about a ripple effect of people in different locations, over the period of decades.

It's a worthwhile question to ponder, even if you don't believe in God. It's fascinating to me because most people would have just asked their friends that were around if this actually happened. I doubt many people would have jumped on board with a dangerous, minority, religion that was getting you slaughtered. Something historically/sociologically fascinating happened there, whatever it was.

3. Who knows? How quickly Christianity spreads doesn't validate its authenticity. Currently Islam is the fastest Growing religion.

It carries some weight I think in the sense that, again, a religion about a God who wins through being executed in a horrible way gains unimaginable traction in a very short time in the face of direct opposition. Marcus Borg and Dominic Crossan do some great work to show how historically interesting this truly was.

4. It's correct because a woman reported it is when at the time nobody would use a woman's testimony as evidence is not a logical argument.

Not correct, but interesting. You have a religion that makes all the faux pas and is still validated. You don't find that interesting and somewhat compelling if you are trying to land on a specific religion?

5. What Christians are critical of the power structures within Christianity today?

Walter Bruggeman
Brian Zahnd
Shane Claiborne
Michael Gungor
Rob Bell
N.T. Wright
Greg Boyd
Dominic Crossan
Marcus Borg
Richard Beck
Peter Rollins
Scott Mcknight
Dallas Willard
Walter Wink
(I tried to get a mix of perspectives and backgrounds in there) I can keep going for a long, long time

I think you're correct in that we can't "know". Why a god exists and which god to follow are not things that can be scrutinized on a rational level. Feelings and "gut emotion" have to come into play.

I think it's interesting to note that Christianity has seen declining numbers in the US as the "non affiliated" numbers grow. I think as more religious skeptics get a podium to talk on this will continue to increase.

I definitely find it fascinating and well deserved. Though there is a lot of debate on if the "NA" group is growing or just becoming more acceptable and thus more accurate. But I welcome religious skeptics to the podium (in many ways I am one).

 

[Ray Wonder]

You could look into non-Abrahamic religions/philosophies and see if any of those work better for you. There's more than one or two ways to obtain piece of mind, OP.

It's all about feeling secure in your place in the universe, or feeling more connected to the universe, when you start breaking this stuff down. If that's a purely scientific approach, or Judaism, or Buddhism, or just a personal philosophy that mixes and matches various things, then that's all okay. You just need to do what works for you.

If it's a sense of community that you really want then, admittedly, the Abrahamic religions do astoundingly well in that regard. But you can find that kind of close-knit feeling in many groups if you look. That doesn't sound like your issue, OP, but I'm just throwing it out there.

EDIT: Just read that you don't want to try other religions. Well, philosophy unattached from religion might do you better. It would require some reading, but it's doable.

I'm open to look at Buddhism. I had PMs about a religion that I already knew that I didn't want to be a part of.

 

[TheOctodad]

I'm open to look at Buddhism. I had PMs about a religion that I already knew that I didn't want to be a part of.

Would you like to come with me to get audited? You probably just have really high thetan levels.

Let's go clear together brah.

 

[Lothar]

I actually don't think this one is silly at all. I'm not talking about Jesus himself, I'm talking about the early church. People weren't stupid back then, they knew quite well people didn't raise from the dead. What happened to cause those early followers to be willing to die, to be fed to lions, to oppose Caesar, to take in the unwanted babies in the streets, etc.? We're not just talking immediate followers either, we're talking about a ripple effect of people in different locations, over the period of decades.

It's a worthwhile question to ponder, even if you don't believe in God. It's fascinating to me because most people would have just asked their friends that were around if this actually happened. I doubt many people would have jumped on board with a dangerous, minority, religion that was getting you slaughtered. Something historically/sociologically fascinating happened there, whatever it was.

It's not that mysterious. This is what happened.

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Heaven's_Gate_(religious_group)

On March 26, 1997, police discovered the bodies of 39 members of the group who had committed mass suicide[2] in order to reach what they believed was an alien space craft following Comet Hale–Bopp.

Would you believe that many people would kill themselves if they didn't have hard evidence that their souls would be going to a spaceship behind a comet?

 

[RedFury]

I was raised catholic but in my CCD class I was always taught to question everything by our "father"(priest). He said we were meant to learn and question everything. I used to stay up at night wondering if there truly was a god and why there were so many different religions and which was the right one. I realized I hate organized religion, let me get that out of the way now. I think people twist it for their own motives, but that's people not the religion. At the same time I think it's necessary for so many who feel they have no one else to turn to. I swear if it wasn't for religion that I truly believe one of my friends would have taken her own life. I view the bible as parables/ a book of philosophy. Ways to live your life. I just graduated in May with a degree in bio environmental sciences so that impacted the way I saw the world. I truly believe that science and religion can coexist with an open mind. It's important in science to never rule out any possibilities no matter how unlikely. You can run the same experiment 100 times and it'll work on the 101st. My view is scientific but romanticized so bare with me. We all came from matter that was gathered in space. The formation of the earth is something I think most people can agree on. The planet is bombarded every day with different elements from the beginning of its formation to now. Many of those elements made life possible. In a way we are children born from dead stars. Matter can not be created nor destroyed just moved around. When someone dies they don't just disappear the go into the soil that allows the trees to grow. The seed that feeds the bird. In a wierd way your loved ones stil live all around you flying high above you. Now it's your job to respect that and protect their resting place (the earth)...now I'm an environmental scientist. I could go into it more but I feel I've already said a lot despite trying to cut it down.
Edit: did not want to get into cold hard science.

 

[TheOctodad]

It's not that mysterious. This is what happened.

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Heaven's_Gate_(religious_group)



Would you believe that many people would kill themselves if they didn't have hard evidence that their souls would be going to a spaceship behind a comet?

That's really not an apt comparison, but I agree that it can be explained like that if you want to. I think it's a far more interesting phenomenon that is unprecedented.

Again, I'm not trying to convince you. I'm just saying if you're trying to choose a religion and already believe in God. I think there's some reasons that you would go with Christianity that would be somewhat founded.

 

[shireman]

Clearly for not very long or very logically.

Good one. You must feel a little better about yourself now. I'm happy for you.

 

[TheOctodad]

Clearly for not very long or very logically.

I don't know why you're being so rude to him. That's really not needed.

 

[Ryouji Gunblade]

Ignorance is bliss. Oftentimes selfish and short-sighted bliss that eventually hurts others.

 

[FoxSpirit]

Last night I couldn't sleep. I laid down around 9pm, and finally ended up sleeping around midnight. Sometimes I get lost in thought, and just can't stop diving deeper. Last night was one of those times. My brain decided it would think about the inevitable events that occur in most peoples lives, such as their parents/family dying. I couldn't stop thinking about how my loved ones will cease to exist, for all intent and purposes. Their consciousness will be gone someday, and so will mine. Nothing but memories of them will remain. This brought me to the desperate feeling that I wanted to believe in God. I want to be able to think about someone, and if death popped up in that thought, I could have a somewhat happy feeling believing that they would go to heaven.

I want that.

I know that I can't bring myself to have that though. I'm envious of the people that believe that there's an afterlife.

People try to use science to argue against religion, and try to convince people that what they believe isn't true. To me, now, that seems almost like some sort of crime. If you're successful in that endeavor, and convince someone that what they believe isn't true. You rob them of, in my eyes, one of the best things ever. Something to look forward to, after you die.

I don't know what they point of this post is. Just jotting thoughts down, I guess.

I guess if anyone else has a story similar and they found a way to believe, or if you feel the same way as me, or anything relevant to this subject, we can discuss it!

You want to believe in an afterlife, not in god. Why not pick up the horrible glorious belief of reincarnation? While not the self directly will continue to exist, your karma will. And around it a new you will form, completely influenced by what you did and experienced in this life. Even friendships. Think of it as the traits a child is born with as well as the circumstances.
Though even you won't remember you met before, you have this instant feeling of connection. As if you had met before.
It's a concept I entertain to a high degree though with some of my life choices I hope to solve some of my issues so they wont continue to haunt me in the next life. And I constantly harbor the strong hope that should I be born in a comfortable life, I won't turn into an asshole. Please no.

I am an Ex-Catholic btw. A belief in a creator god is highly toxic and damaging, ditch that wish.

 

[Hipster Cthulhu]

I don't know why you're being so rude to him. That's really not needed.

I'm sorry, but everyone has patience and mine runs out when you don't understand how puddles work.

 

[Fenderputty]

I actually don't think this one is silly at all. I'm not talking about Jesus himself, I'm talking about the early church. People weren't stupid back then, they knew quite well people didn't raise from the dead. What happened to cause those early followers to be willing to die, to be fed to lions, to oppose Caesar, to take in the unwanted babies in the streets, etc.? We're not just talking immediate followers either, we're talking about a ripple effect of people in different locations, over the period of decades.

It's a worthwhile question to ponder, even if you don't believe in God. It's fascinating to me because most people would have just asked their friends that were around if this actually happened. I doubt many people would have jumped on board with a dangerous, minority, religion that was getting you slaughtered. Something historically/sociologically fascinating happened there, whatever it was.



It carries some weight I think in the sense that, again, a religion about a God who wins through being executed in a horrible way gains unimaginable traction in a very short time in the face of direct opposition. Marcus Borg and Dominic Crossan do some great work to show how historically interesting this truly was.



Not correct, but interesting. You have a religion that makes all the faux pas and is still validated. You don't find that interesting and somewhat compelling if you are trying to land on a specific religion?



Walter Bruggeman
Brian Zahnd
Shane Claiborne
Michael Gungor
Rob Bell
N.T. Wright
Greg Boyd
Dominic Crossan
Marcus Borg
Richard Beck
Peter Rollins
Scott Mcknight
Dallas Willard
Walter Wink
(I tried to get a mix of perspectives and backgrounds in there) I can keep going for a long, long time



I definitely find it fascinating and well deserved. Though there is a lot of debate on if the "NA" group is growing or just becoming more acceptable and thus more accurate. But I welcome religious skeptics to the podium (in many ways I am one).

People have been searching for meaning in life since ... forever. Why does someone pour their heart out to an E Meter? A religious belief set based on the writings of a science fiction novelist. There's 10 million or so members in Scientology. People don't act rationally about these things. Gut feelings and emotions are not rational. Assuming people acted rationally during the start of the Christian church is just that, an assumption. Your second paragraph operates under the same premise. It might not be a cult today, but when Christianity started it was just that, a small group of people clinging to largely odd beliefs during the current times. Why did Mormonism break off and gather such a following? It also started under similar circumstances. The leader believing in the cause and the quick expansion of the belief set is not in any way a validation of the belief itself.

I do think it's interesting. I also think it's interesting Xenu brought billions of people here only to slaughter them by volcanoes whereby leaving their spirits to haunt us. I'm not sure which is less socially accepted for their respective time periods, but they're probably both pretty out there.

I'll have to look up some of those names and their critiques. Are they loud voices within the community?

 

[shireman]

I'm sorry, but everyone has patience and mine runs out when you don't understand how puddles work.

I failed my school's puddle program =(

 

[TheOctodad]

I'm sorry, but everyone has patience and mine runs out when you don't understand how puddles work.

I generally take that as a cue to stop responding, not be rude to someone. What does that achieve other than give you a feeling of superiority and to shutdown any useful discourse?

I'll have to look up some of those names and their critiques. Are they loud voices within the community?

Yes. Most of the names are somewhat recognized in their circles. Some are in more scholarly circles and some are in more pastoral circles. Some of them have been branded "heretics" for spouting off the Christian party line. I'd say Rob Bell is a good starting one that is loved by some and hated by others that's at the forefront now. Bruggemann is probably one of the most respected scholars of the Old Testament that is infamous for critiquing ancient and modern empires. Here's a brief sampling: http://www.faithstreet.com/onfaith/2015/01/09/walter-brueggemann-church-gospel-bible/35739

Should add Cornel West to that list.

 

[Hipster Cthulhu]

I failed my school's puddle program =(

Wow, I find it hard to believe you ever went to school.

 

[ThoseDeafMutes]

I actually don't think this one is silly at all. I'm not talking about Jesus himself, I'm talking about the early church. People weren't stupid back then, they knew quite well people didn't raise from the dead. What happened to cause those early followers to be willing to die, to be fed to lions, to oppose Caesar, to take in the unwanted babies in the streets, etc.? We're not just talking immediate followers either, we're talking about a ripple effect of people in different locations, over the period of decades.

Persecution of the church was sporadic and small scale until about 60-70 CE. Christianity had spread and set up roots by this stage, we're talking 30-40 years after the death of Jesus. For early converts this would imply we're on the second or third generation of people raised in the faith, with some initial converts still alive. The fact that Christians drew the attention of the Roman Emperor implies that they were large enough of a movement to be on the radar of the most powerful man in the world.

Had there been a major crackdown from the Emperor on day one, Christianity wouldn't exist today. But there was enough breathing room for the religion to spread in the early days, and adding martyrs dying for the cause later on no doubt helped galvanise the existing populations.

 

[TheOctodad]

Persecution of the church was sporadic and small scale until about 60-70 CE. Christianity had spread and set up roots by this stage, we're talking 30-40 years after the death of Jesus. For early converts this would imply we're on the second or third generation of people raised in the faith, with some initial converts still alive. The fact that Christians drew the attention of the Roman Emperor implies that they were large enough of a movement to be on the radar of the most powerful man in the world.

Had there been a major crackdown from the Emperor on day one, Christianity wouldn't exist today. But there was enough breathing room for the religion to spread in the early days, and adding martyrs dying for the cause later on no doubt helped galvanise the existing populations.

This is a great response. Well done!

 

[Linconan]

I believe in nothing, therefor anything is possible.

In a world where people, lie, kill, try to dominate. I find it very hard to believe any word from Man, who isn't trying to get their 15 mins of fame and/or continued attention.

But,
I hold onto "hope" that there is a God, in some form. I lost my father in 2012, and he was a great Man. He wasn't Rich and he didn't conquer Mountains. But he was always there for me and made me feel loved.
And i truly hope there's more for him, and others in the world who deserve it.

But whatever is, will always be.
Mans opinion on himself matters not, and that's why i hold onto hope and why i wear my Fathers cross. Not because of my opinion or what i think, but because it was important to him. So i will always remember him not just in thought but in my, soul.

 

[shireman]

Wow, I find it hard to believe you ever went to school.

The jerk store called and they're running out of you

It's funny cause I've frequented neogaf since high school and always found people on here to be complete buttholes. After my first post this morning my thoughts have been confirmed. Thank you Hipster C.

What I believed was true all along.

 

[Retromelon]

The hardest part about being an atheist (in my experience) is coming to terms with the fact that i will most likely never see relatives that died again. The memories never stop hurting, and the only thing to do is let them fade away so the pain goes with it.

 

[Beren the Empty-Handed]

I'm open to look at Buddhism. I had PMs about a religion that I already knew that I didn't want to be a part of.

Then it's definitely something to consider. When looking at non-Abrahamic religions, keep in mind that it's a very different mindset, and I would think about and digest anything on a different philosophy before deciding if it's for you or not. Let a new philosophy bounce around in your head a little before making a decision on it.

 

[FoxSpirit]

The jerk store called and they're running out of you

It's funny cause I've frequented neogaf since high school and always found people on here to be complete buttholes. After my first post this morning my thoughts have been confirmed. Thank you Hipster C.

What I believed was true all along.

Back in the day, people were competent buttholes. Now they are just stinky :-\