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Idea of Healthy Obesity Is Tested

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Why yes they are.
But what would you prefer over social values being what people judge each other on? Lets take the topic of racism, since that is by far one of our largest social stigmas. How do we stop racism if not through having "popular views" of which people outside are shamed into coming back into that popular view.

Are you serious? Hum, ok.

Educating communities about the subject, raising their awareness, showing them how to better coexist and how it would be to their benefit to reduce inequality, helping them go through the process of change, external and internal benefits to companies and employees who take significant action towards diminishing inequality, holding country wide convention on the subject to engage conversation between media and similarly capable venues for the sharing of information, supporting research into the subject, promoting others with the skill to do so to themselves do what they can, and i could go on and on and on.
 
I oftentimes get the feeling from these threads that I am somehow morally deficient because I don't go to the gym or work out. Though I am somewhat shielded by the fact that I don't eat much and am very underweight.
 
Indeed, which is why offering multiple routes to combat obesity is needed, through more promotion of healthy alternatives, driving the costs of healthy foods down, and removing much of the unhealthy additives to current foods so that food in general overall is healthier. There will still be unhealthy snacks, but things like the FDA banning all artificial trans fats is a good step.

I agree. In particular, I think the framing of the choices makes a huge difference.
 
The no time to work out excuse is BS too.

Wake up and so some body work outs. Some High Intensity Interval Training stuff. Or do it before you go to sleep.

If you truly are too busy to exercise then eat to reflect that. If you truly have no time to get active and are sedentary all day then the diet needs to reflect that. If you aren't burning the calories don't intake them.

Bootstraps. Get 'em. Never mind that we have the resources and capacity to make it easier for people.
 
I oftentimes get the feeling from these threads that I am somehow morally deficient because I don't go to the gym or work out. Though I am somewhat shielded by the fact that I don't eat much and am very underweight.

nah, there's actually been a pretty big push from some fitness experts to move away from the gym and do a lot more exercises that can be done at home, outside, and with your own bodyweight. About the only thing we're truly designed to do is walk a lot.

But yeah, being active is an objectively good thing for your heart, lungs, mood, and general health, regardless of your weight. That's how we evolved as a species. Your lack of physical activity is an evolutionary oddity only plausible as an option now because of technology.
 
This is baffling to me; not the results of the analysis, but the fact that it needed to be conducted or purports to be overturning some sort of misconception. Obesity is a universally negative state and as a BMI classification was more-or-less created to describe one intentionally.

I feel as though at some point, the concept that being overweight can be proportionally healthier in terms of risk of death by all causes than being underweight, which is accurate, was conflated with the idea of "healthy obesity" which is as oxymoronic as they come.
I oftentimes get the feeling from these threads that I am somehow morally deficient because I don't go to the gym or work out. Though I am somewhat shielded by the fact that I don't eat much and am very underweight.
Er. Unfortunate timing :-/

Shielded somewhat from moral assault to be sure, but being underweight carries its own significant risk factors and shouldn't be considered equivalent to "healthy"!
 
If it makes you feel better, I chortled.
That's part of the problem. People will believe and say anything to justify their lifestyle.
When somebody starts talking about "healthy obesity", they'll jump all over that bandwagon and completely dismiss anything that suggests it's a myth.
 
But yeah, being active is an objectively good thing for your heart, lungs, mood, and general health, regardless of your weight. That's how we evolved as a species. Your lack of physical activity is an evolutionary oddity only plausible as an option now because of technology.

Oh I'm well aware. Though seem to talk about it from a "good or evil" standpoint rather than a healthy or unhealthy standpoint. Which I think is counterproductive.

Er. Unfortunate timing :-/

Shielded somewhat from moral assault to be sure, but being underweight carries its own significant risk factors and shouldn't be considered equivalent to "healthy"!

Well aware. Underweight people are also not healthy but they aren't treated with the outright revulsion that fat people are.
 
Are you serious? Hum, ok.

Educating communities about the subject, raising their awareness, showing them how to better coexist and how it would be to their benefit to reduce inequality, helping them go through the process of change, external and internal benefits to companies and employees who take significant action towards diminishing inequality, holding country wide convention on the subject to engage conversation between media and similarly capable venues for the sharing of information, supporting research into the subject, promoting others with the skill to do so to themselves do what they can, and i could go on and on and on.

All you do is socially make it "good" and ignore that the concept of good must come with the creation of a bad.
These are all things that media and other positions of power should do but it only sinks into society as a positive value and thus people will not be happy with those going against that positive value. This causes shaming and shaming causes peer pressure which causes greater change.

A good example of this is environmentalism. We promote generally the idea of protecting the environment so we naturally create that idea of good, implying that harming the environment is bad. We have a lot of people now who shame the idea of harming the environment.
 
The no time to work out excuse is BS too.

Wake up and so some body work outs. Some High Intensity Interval Training stuff. Or do it before you go to sleep.

If you truly are too busy to exercise then eat to reflect that. If you truly have no time to get active and are sedentary all day then the diet needs to reflect that. If you aren't burning the calories don't intake them.

I can only assume you're rejecting the comparison to conservative bootstrap arguments because you hate being associated with American conservatives and cannot resolve the cognitive dissonance in any other way.

You could essentially fill in the blanks here with any argument. The excuses for not being educated are BS: just work hard in school and study hard in your free time. The excuses for not having a job are BS: I started from the ground floor and worked my way up by applying myself. The excuses for being poor are BS: just save every dime you can and invest and those investments will grow over time. Don't buy things you don't need like cell phones.

You are applying a very straightforward "bootstrap" argument where honus and responsibility are placed entirely on the individual with no concern for external causes whatsoever. You could not possibly fashion a more stereotypically conservative argument. if it bothers you to admit this (perhaps it doesn't, but it seems to), I strongly suggest you are suffering from cognitive dissonance and that you should resolve this logically. Everyone suffers from this on occasion, and I'm certainly not immune to it.
 
Some of the comments in this thread and just skimming the fitness OT reinforce my desire to avoid fitgaf. I could use their advice but it feels like I'd just be submitting myself for lots of potential ridicule.

The NPR article Mumei linked is good reading though.
 
There is. There's a recent study into how much food and drinks have 'grown' in size over the last 20 years. Some of the findings include:

- 20 years ago, the average bagel had 140 calories. Today, the average bagel has 350 calories.

- 20 years ago, the average cup of coffee had 45 calories (whole milk+sugar). Today, the average cup of coffee has 350 calories (steamed whole milk+mocha syrup).

- 20 years ago, the average soda bottle contained 82 calories. Today, the average soda bottle contains 250 calories.

It's absolutely a problem of values, and unfortunately, it takes a tremendous amount of work to devalue things that are accepted as being valuable.
Yeah, food is more processed and has higher calorie density. The extra calories come mostly from processed carbohydrates and sugar. So while I do think there is some truth to what the other poster was saying, if fast food and grocery stores were only offering "value" sizes of real food, we wouldn't have this problem. So it's not simply a matter of the culture and how we think of "value". A head of broccoli still has the same amount of calories as it did 20 years ago. If you offer the customer bigger and bigger sizes, you're going to have to put them in a situation where their bodies actually clamor for more and more calories, by increasing calorie density and or messing with the biochemistry of the body--i.e. processed carbohydrates and sugar.

Some of the comments in this thread and just skimming the fitness OT reinforce my desire to avoid fitgaf. I could use their advice but it feels like I'd just be submitting myself for lots of potential ridicule.

The NPR article Mumei linked is good reading though.
Yeah, I wouldn't recommend FitGAF for anyone that doesn't want to get judged. If you just want a workout routine to build muscle, read the FitGAF OP and follow some of those links and resources. If you want diet advice there are many other threads for that.
 
The first thing is that people have to learn how to cook their damn meals from scratch. Stop buying premade meals or nasty salad dressing on your salads. Don't eat out while at work, bring your own lunch. Be moderately active. Go biking or something. At the very minimum walk more often and don't be lazy and use the stairs in the subway. I see people use the elevator where I work to go up one floor. The stairs are right next to it.

Forget about low carb or low fat. It's all bullshit until people can do the very basics.
 
Adding to RibMan's point:

There is a heuristic referred to as the Unit Bias which helps explain why these increases in portion sizes have a strong effect on human behavior.

People tend to think of one soda as one soda, and do not properly consider the size of the portion when drinking it. That is to say, people's brains process 2 8 Oz. drinks differently than they process 1 16Oz. drink even if they are ultimately the same amount of stuff.

As such, the increasing size of portion sizes has a dramatic effect on people's consumption habits without them really realizing it. One order of fries is one order of fries, and the fact that this order of fries is 33% bigger has little impact on our behavior. If that order was instead split in to two bags of fries, that would considerably reduce average consumption.
 
Which is why if I drink soda, I do it from cans most often now, it's less caloric intake (I should be just drinking water, but years of caffeine has given me caffeine withdrawal symptoms)
 
Being overweight is bad?

huh, I´d never...

Joking aside, its good that its been tested. (again)

I am skinny (so far) and eat like crap. But atleast Im not overwieght, that would be even worse for my body.

Which is why if I drink soda, I do it from cans most often now, it's less caloric intake (I should be just drinking water, but years of caffeine has given me caffeine withdrawal symptoms)

I went from regular coke/pepsi to light, to now almost nothing at all but a bit of light soda a week. Caffeine has a real effect on my now, I use it when I need it.
I never got any real symptoms from quitting, just a feeling of being tired/headache that lasted a few days.
 
All you do is socially make it "good" and ignore that the concept of good must come with the creation of a bad.
These are all things that media and other positions of power should do but it only sinks into society as a positive value and thus people will not be happy with those going against that positive value. This causes shaming and shaming causes peer pressure which causes greater change.

A good example of this is environmentalism. We promote generally the idea of protecting the environment so we naturally create that idea of good, implying that harming the environment is bad. We have a lot of people now who shame the idea of harming the environment.

Jeez, sure man, however you want to spin it to your liking. It still doesn't justify social shaming nor do i see how you even make that jump.
 
Jeez, sure man, however you want to spin it to your liking. It still doesn't justify social shaming nor do i see how you even make that jump.

I think the problem is our definition of shaming. I take shaming as any actions to make certain thing appear not welcome. I suppose you take it as openly hating on something, correct me if I'm wrong.
 
I think the problem is our definition of shaming. I take shaming as any actions to make certain thing appear not welcome. I suppose you take it as openly hating on something, correct me if I'm wrong.

Hum. Shaming means making someone feel strong guilt? What you're referring to isn't shaming then.
 
Hum. Shaming means making someone feel strong guilt? What you're referring to isn't shaming then.

There is no "strong" in that definition, actually. I had a feeling the severity was the difference between our claims.

http://www.oxforddictionaries.com/us/definition/american_english/shame
http://www.oxforddictionaries.com/us/definition/american_english/ashamed

Ashamed means simply embarrassed of themselves or guilty without saying the degree in which it's done, and to shame to make people be ashamed or intending to make them that way. Peer pressure is a very normal method of shaming so people try to change quickly so they can fit in with the community. If the values of the majority were anti-racism or pro-environmentalism then the person would feel alienated if they did not have those views and the clash of views would cause shaming.
 
Looking around, it seems to me that shaming can help shape expressed attitudes, but that it doesn't really do much for people's day-to-day choices except perhaps on a generational time scale.

Racism has been mentioned, and, yeah, it's been very successfully shamed, as these things go. People hate being thought of as racists, and are very concerned with being able to justify their actions and beliefs without resort to the sorts of reasons that everyone agrees are racist. And yet obviously there's still a lot of racism out there. A lot of government policy remains racist. A lot of what we've achieved is just to convince racists that they're not really racists because racists are bad people and they're not bad people. As far as real change goes, a lot of our progress here seems to me to be just about racists getting old and dying and younger people not being as racist. I'm willing to believe that "shaming" of racism played a role in producing this generational change, but if we're considering this as a strategy for dealing with obesity we should think about whether or not the harms from present shaming are worth it for change over such a long period of time. Also, we should consider that we do shame fat people and yet things don't really seem to be getting better over time.

I suspect that fat shaming will turn out to be about as efficacious as what we might call "abortion shaming". I'm very much not looking to have an argument about abortion here, but I think everyone can agree that in a lot of the US there's a great deal of stigma attached to the procedure. And yet abortion rates don't seem terribly responsive to this stigma; really pro-life communities don't seem to have much lower abortion rates than the rest of the country just because they sincerely believe that abortion is wrong. "My situation is different", they all think. The pro-life movement as a whole basically recognizes this, or at least has recognized that shaming is simply never going to amount to a comprehensive solution, and has adopted a strategy (again, let's not talk about the morality of it) of making abortions more difficult to obtain.

A notable difference is that abortion is private and can't be easily observed by others, so let's try to find something closer. Smoking is probably pretty comparable to over-eating. And again it doesn't really seem to be the case that shaming smokers helps much, except on very long time scales by genuinely convincing kids that smoking isn't cool or whatever. Making it much harder to smoke in public probably does a whole lot more, and I suspect that cigarette prices are discouraging to people, as well as genuine education about the health risks (but we all know that obesity is generally unhealthy). Again it's altering the actual choices people face that seems to make the most difference; convincing them that something is in general bad doesn't help all that much, at least not for people who actually need help now.
 
Looking around, it seems to me that shaming can help shape expressed attitudes, but that it doesn't really do much for people's day-to-day choices except perhaps on a generational time scale.

Racism has been mentioned, and, yeah, it's been very successfully shamed, as these things go. People hate being thought of as racists, and are very concerned with being able to justify their actions and beliefs without resort to the sorts of reasons that everyone agrees are racist. And yet obviously there's still a lot of racism out there. A lot of government policy remains racist. A lot of what we've achieved is just to convince racists that they're not really racists because racists are bad people and they're not bad people. As far as real change goes, a lot of our progress here seems to me to be just about racists getting old and dying and younger people not being as racist. I'm willing to believe that "shaming" of racism played a role in producing this generational change, but if we're considering this as a strategy for dealing with obesity we should think about whether or not the harms from present shaming are worth it for change over such a long period of time. Also, we should consider that we do shame fat people and yet the things don't really seem to be getting better over time.

I suspect that fat shaming will turn out to be about as efficacious as what we might call "abortion shaming". I'm very much not looking to have an argument about abortion here, but I think everyone can agree that in a lot of the US there's a great deal of stigma attached to the procedure. And yet abortion rates don't seem terribly responsive to this stigma; really pro-life communities don't seem to have much lower abortion rates than the rest of the country just because they sincerely believe that abortion is wrong. "My situation is different", they all think. The pro-life movement as a whole basically recognizes this, or at least has recognized that shaming is simply never going to amount to a comprehensive solution, and has adopted a strategy (again, let's not talk about the morality of it) of making abortions more difficult to obtain.

Smoking is probably pretty comparable to over-eating. And again it doesn't really seem to be the case that shaming smokers helps much, except on very long time scales by genuinely convincing kids that smoking isn't cool or whatever. Making it much harder to smoke in public probably does a whole lot more, and I suspect that cigarette prices are discouraging to people. Again it's altering the actual choices people face that seems to make the most difference; convincing them that something is in general bad doesn't help all that much, at least not for people who actually need help now.

It's because shame doesn't lay the groundwork for people to improve themselves it just makes the person doing the shaming feel better.
 
Yeah, I wouldn't recommend FitGAF for anyone that doesn't want to get judged. If you just want a workout routine to build muscle, read the FitGAF OP and follow some of those links and resources. If you want diet advice there are many other threads for that.

It's probably one of the most supportive communities on this page.
 
It's probably one of the most supportive communities on this page.

It's probably one of the most judgmental communities on this page, in my opinion. People from that thread get banned all the time (at least when I was in there) from judging people in other threads. But again, it's just my opinion. I don't think i'm completely alone in the opinion though.
 
It's probably one of the most judgmental communities on this page, in my opinion. People from that thread get banned all the time (at least when I was in there) from judging people in other threads. But again, it's just my opinion. I don't think i'm completely alone in the opinion though.

Only guy I can think of to be banned a couple times is Petrie and he's still good people. Blunt, but he's still supportive of people's fitness goals.

I think the word you're looking for is it's a non nonsense community. Then again the act of lifting is no nonsense.
 
Pretty sure Alienshogun's been banned like a million times and along with Cooter, they both hate poor people. That support though...

Actually, I used to participate in the thread regularly before it was moved to Community. There was occasionally some interesting discussions along with advice regarding supplements and individual lift effectiveness.

However, now every time I check it out, it's normally just some dudebro boasting about his gains that nobody cares about, or discussion about quest bars. Truly a must read.
 
I'm sitting here and wondering what you mean by "no nonsense."

There are no shortcuts I'm fitness. It takes consistency, hard work and proper programming.

"Tough love," of course.

Please don't judge and practice what you preach.

Pretty sure Alienshogun's been banned like a million times and along with Cooter, they both hate poor people. That support though...

Actually, I used to participate in the thread regularly before it was moved to Community. There was occasionally some interesting discussions along with advice regarding supplements and individual lift effectiveness.

However, now every time I check it out, it's normally just some dudebro boasting about his gains that nobody cares about, or discussion about quest bars. Truly a must read.

They hate poor people?

Boasting about gains or posting PRs? You sound bitter, which is too bad :/
 
It's because shame doesn't lay the groundwork for people to improve the mlves it just makes the person doing the shaming feel better.
eh, it can be motivation, i.e. " if I lose this particular quality people won't make fun of me for it anymore" though the quality of that motivation is rather suspect
 
I don't think it's particularly useful or relevant here to argue about the quality of a vaguely related GAF subcommunity.
 
eh, it can be motivation, i.e. " if I lose this particular quality people won't make fun of me for it anymore" though the quality of that motivation is rather suspect

I think most evidence points to this not really being a motivator in a lot of cases. It can just as easily lead to people taking pride in that quality and going "fuck those who make fun of me for it, it is who I am."
 
Some of the comments in this thread and just skimming the fitness OT reinforce my desire to avoid fitgaf. I could use their advice but it feels like I'd just be submitting myself for lots of potential ridicule.

The NPR article Mumei linked is good reading though.

This is somewhat wrong though. If you come with an open mind, no one will really ridicule you. Those who do are assholes.

I don't post in FitGAF myself, but I do check in from time to time. They're a close knit group but they do share knowledge and help if asked. Just make sure to read the OP, and don't take offense at some of the blunt responses.
 
I can only assume you're rejecting the comparison to conservative bootstrap arguments because you hate being associated with American conservatives and cannot resolve the cognitive dissonance in any other way.

You could essentially fill in the blanks here with any argument. The excuses for not being educated are BS: just work hard in school and study hard in your free time. The excuses for not having a job are BS: I started from the ground floor and worked my way up by applying myself. The excuses for being poor are BS: just save every dime you can and invest and those investments will grow over time. Don't buy things you don't need like cell phones.

You are applying a very straightforward "bootstrap" argument where honus and responsibility are placed entirely on the individual with no concern for external causes whatsoever. You could not possibly fashion a more stereotypically conservative argument. if it bothers you to admit this (perhaps it doesn't, but it seems to), I strongly suggest you are suffering from cognitive dissonance and that you should resolve this logically. Everyone suffers from this on occasion, and I'm certainly not immune to it.
I'm pretty sure I've seen you make this argument before and it's a ridiculous false equivalence. In terms of barriers to entry (barring significant pre-existing injury or disability), basic exercise falls closer to brushing one's teeth than it does to something like attaining an education or a well paying job. Walking, jogging or running are things nearly all people know how to do. Simple movements such as squats, planks and pushups can be learned in under an hour and require no investment in additional equipment. Comparing something that can require as little as two hours a week to a full-time or even part-time study load or job is nonsensical. Furthermore, there is no required external assessment. If someone doesn't perform well at a job (as judged by other people) they may be fired and experience a decrease in their socio-economic status, even if it's through no fault of their own. Let's not gloss over the fact that in a society/economy that does not maintain full employment, having a job in the first place requires the approval of others. By contrast, if someone starts exercising and finds they are weak or get tired easily, no-one intervenes and prevents them from continuing to improve their health. If you skip classes or don't perform well in school, you will not be able to attend university/college. If you stop exercising for a few months, no-one will require anything of you in order to start again. There is a difference between difficulty and complexity. It might take someone four years of regular training to reach their fitness goals, but to use another tortured analogy, it's closer to four years of doing the crossword and sudoku puzzles in the paper every weekend than it is to four years of studying for a degree.

There are caveats, of course. People with mental health issues may find committing to an exercise program difficult, especially if it involves the use of public spaces or gymnasiums, something I am acutely aware of. The most effective forms of resistance exercise (barbell training) have a higher barrier of entry in terms of expense (either for equipment or a gym membership) and the skills and knowledge required to perform them. It certainly doesn't help that there is a fitness industry which aims to make exercise as complicated, expensive and honestly, as ineffective as possible in order to make money. The same applies to diet, which I believe would have more obstacles to overcome for someone in the general case than basic exercise.

I want to make it clear that I generally don't care if people are overweight, underweight or don't exercise and personally don't give two figs about training for appearance. What I do care about is misinformation. When the "bootstraps" argument gets brought up, it's usually because some has said that in order to be fit and healthy someone "just" has to do x, y or z. This rubs people the wrong way, because if they aren't especially fit and healthy someone claiming they would be if they "just" did x, y or z can be seen to be judging them quite harshly, especially when the focus is often on the outcome (generally an unrealistic body image) instead of the process itself. This is a problem of framing. Instead of "if you want outcome A just do B," it should be "if you want to do B, that's great, be prepared to discover that it's less complex than you might have expected and that if you stick at it you might find yourself approaching outcome A." Just you know, way less stilted than that.
 
Is there any reason why BMI isn't adjusted for very tall people? I'm 6'5" or 6'6", and hover between 190 and 200 lbs. If you look at me, you'd say I was pretty thin, but BMI for that weight is 22.5 - 23.7 . According to BMI measures for my height, you aren't even considered "underweight" until you are sitting at 155 lbs. At 6'5", 155 lbs is a step up from Christian Bale in the Machinist.

I don't think it would be that difficult to modify the equation so that it scales better at the extremes.
 
Is there any reason why BMI isn't adjusted for very tall people?...
I don't think it would be that difficult to modify the equation so that it scales better at the extremes.
The Canadian military quit using the BMI standard because it's flawed. Tall guys and muscular guys were failing their BMI, while short pudgy females were passing theirs. It was ridiculous that extremely fit and strong soldiers had to lose muscle just to meet the BMI standards.

Maybe there's a better equation, but I haven't seen it. It's much better to do proper pinch tests and that water tank measurement to determine body fat, but that's not as convenient as a simple equation. I don't think there a magic formula that isn't going to be flawed for some people.
 
I'm pretty sure I've seen you make this argument before and it's a ridiculous false equivalence.

I have made it before, and that's because it's an extremely good comparison.

In terms of barriers to entry (barring significant pre-existing injury or disability), basic exercise falls closer to brushing one's teeth than it does to something like attaining an education or a well paying job.

In your opinion. You may think basic exercise is easy; quite evidently, other people do not. The evidence is overwhelmingly on my side here -- while the average American continues to be increasingly productive at work and is more educated than ever before, they continue to gain weight. The evidence, therefore, does not suggest people are lazy. Americans work more hours than the average citizen of virtually every other country in the world, and modern Americans are more educated than any American generation in history.

Walking, jogging or running are things nearly all people know how to do. Simple movements such as squats, planks and pushups can be learned in under an hour and require no investment in additional equipment.

The learning, in this case, clearly isn't the hard part. Lifting 400 pounds is also intellectually simple; that's not what makes it hard. It's the physical exertion it requires, obviously. You may find this physical exertion easy; others may find it challenging.

I want to make it clear that I generally don't care if people are overweight, underweight or don't exercise and personally don't give two figs about training for appearance. What I do care about is misinformation. When the "bootstraps" argument gets brought up, it's usually because some has said that in order to be fit and healthy someone "just" has to do x, y or z. This rubs people the wrong way, because if they aren't especially fit and healthy someone claiming they would be if they "just" did x, y or z can be seen to be judging them quite harshly, especially when the focus is often on the outcome (generally an unrealistic body image) instead of the process itself. This is a problem of framing. Instead of "if you want outcome A just do B," it should be "if you want to do B, that's great, be prepared to discover that it's less complex than you might have expected and that if you stick at it you might find yourself approaching outcome A." Just you know, way less stilted than that.

It clearly is quite difficult, because there is an enormous, multi-billion dollar industry that tries to help people lose weight in an huge variety of ways (exercise programs, low calorie program diets like Jennie Craig, specialized diets like low fat or paleo or atkins, some combination of diet and exercise, etc.) and yet people are more overweight than ever. This, again, despite the fact that Americans are clearly willing to work hard both in their jobs and at school compared to counterparts in other countries and compared to their parents (respectively).

What I'm suggesting is that the evidence does not support your suggestion that this is simple and easy. If it was, Americans would be getting better at it, just as we are getting better at virtually everything else, including those things you seem to think are much more difficult. Despite all the tools available at people's disposal, people are getting less fit, not more.

That's pretty convincing evidence that this isn't actually easy. Simply claiming it is flies in the face of the reality we're confronted with. If we're going to speak anecdotally, as you have, well then I personally found school to be quite easy. It requires virtually no physical exertion, and all I have to do is show up to school and I easily pass with good grades, even in hard science classes and even at prestigious Universities. Maybe you find this to be challenging; perhaps, instead, you find exercise to be very easy. That's fine, every person will find some things easy and other things difficult, and it will vary by person. But if we're talking in aggregate, your position simply is not supported by the available evidence.
 
In your opinion. You may think basic exercise is easy; quite evidently, other people do not. The evidence is overwhelmingly on my side; while the average American continues to be increasingly productive at work and is more educated than ever before, they are more more overweight than ever before. The evidence, therefore, suggests it's actually easier to do well at work and in school than it is to lose weight, if anything (I would personally just argue they're all different degrees of hard for different people).
How does Japan overcome the difficult task of avoiding the obesity epidemic while simultaneously working so much more productively and becoming so much more educated than ever before?
 
How does Japan overcome the difficult task of avoiding the obesity epidemic while simultaneously working so much more productively and becoming so much more educated than ever before?

First and most importantly, Japanese GDP per capita is notably lower than America's now, by approximately 10%. This wasn't always the case -- even in the 1980s/1990s Japanese workers outperformed American ones -- but Americans have continued to make great gains in productivity and now considerably outpace their Japanese counterparts.

Second, if the only comparison you can make is to a single country (that only outperforms America in some respects but not others), then that probably means Americans are doing quite a good job. In other words, even if Americans were the second best (And I'm not conceding that they are), I'm not sure it's reasonable to criticize a country for being number 2 out of ~195 countries in the world.
 
I think most evidence points to this not really being a motivator in a lot of cases. It can just as easily lead to people taking pride in that quality and going "fuck those who make fun of me for it, it is who I am."

Yep, which has apparently been happening in this case with obesity.
 
I think it's a matter of poor personal values mixing with even poorer corporate ones. I think contemporary American culture does everything it can to facilitate people's laziness and flaws, and corporations pounce on this and offer giant portions of cheap, nutritionally horrible food that they can get their friends in government to partly subsidize.

The system is damnable, but I don't think this excuses the equally damnable fact that modern society tends to devalue the idea of personal accountability and willful control of behavior where it IS possible.
 
I'm a little overweight but not obese. If I add 15 more pounds of muscle I will be obese according to my BMI

You say that like putting on 15 pounds of muscle without putting on a ton more fat is an easy thing to do.
 
The mall pics from the 80s thread with all the skinny people has me thinking that something changed for the worse in the 90s onwards. That's pretty recent. What happened guys?

The change started in the late 1970s. Basically:
1. Calorie intake went up.
2. Fast food and junk food consumption as a % of food consumed replaced home cooked meals.

There is a lot of research indicating that #2 causes #1. I'm having a bad migraine right now so I shall strive for brevity.

If you have any pictures of relatives in the 1940s-50s, look at that. Literally everyone is at an exceptional weight. You might find 1 or 2 overweight people, but an obese person is like finding waldo in a game where he sometimes isn't there.
 
I think it's a matter of poor personal values mixing with even poorer corporate ones. I think contemporary American culture does everything it can to facilitate people's laziness and flaws, and corporations pounce on this and offer giant portions of cheap, nutritionally horrible food that they can get their friends in government to partly subsidize.

The system is damnable, but I don't think this excuses the equally damnable fact that modern society tends to devalue the idea of personal accountability and willful control of behavior where it IS possible.

Isn't obesity becoming a world-wide problem? So how can this be a problem of modern American culture making people lazy? Why did so much of the world population magically become lazier?
 
The change started in the late 1970s. Basically:
1. Calorie intake went up.
2. Fast food and junk food consumption as a % of food consumed replaced home cooked meals.

There is a lot of research indicating that #2 causes #1. I'm having a bad migraine right now so I shall strive for brevity.

If you have any pictures of relatives in the 1940s-50s, look at that. Literally everyone is at an exceptional weight. You might find 1 or 2 overweight people, but an obese person is like finding waldo in a game where he sometimes isn't there.

Yeah I don't know why it's a big mystery. Add that to the fact that there are less active jobs and more modes of transportation, it's not hard to understand.

As for people not exercising, it's a tough sell behaviorally. After a day of work, what's more reinforcing...sitting on the couch or exercising?

I got home at 7 tonight, ate a snack, hit the gym and wasn't home eating dinner (by the time it was cooked) at 10.
 
The change started in the late 1970s. Basically:
1. Calorie intake went up.
2. Fast food and junk food consumption as a % of food consumed replaced home cooked meals.

There is a lot of research indicating that #2 causes #1. I'm having a bad migraine right now so I shall strive for brevity.

If you have any pictures of relatives in the 1940s-50s, look at that. Literally everyone is at an exceptional weight. You might find 1 or 2 overweight people, but an obese person is like finding waldo in a game where he sometimes isn't there.

I can't get them right now but both of my parents come from families of big people.
 
I actually need to gain weight. I'm 5"11, and weigh under 140lbs. I hit the gym a lot, but I do mostly cardio so I burn a ton of calories (running nearly six miles a day).
No matter how many coats I wear, I've been freezing all winter :(

MILK.

Drink a liter everyday on top of your regular diet. You;ll put on weight in no time.
 
Yeah I don't know why it's a big mystery. Add that to the fact that there are less active jobs and more modes of transportation, it's not hard to understand.

As for people not exercising, it's a tough sell behaviorally. After a day of work, what's more reinforcing...sitting on the couch or exercising?

I got home at 7 tonight, ate a snack, hit the gym and wasn't home eating dinner (by the time it was cooked) at 10.

There's other, more subtle considerations too. Even things as slight as automatic sliding doors at supremarkets, automatic garage door openers, and car windows that don't need to be manually opened and closed have an effect. While each of these activities might be .5 calories per action or less, if you add them up over the course of a lifetime we're talking thousands of calories which equates to several pounds.
 
There's other, more subtle considerations too. Even things as slight as automatic sliding doors at supremarkets, automatic garage door openers, and car windows that don't need to be manually opened and closed have an effect. While each of these activities might be .5 calories per action or less, if you add them up over the course of a lifetime we're talking thousands of calories which equates to several pounds.

Yeah many things being automated doesn't help. There's a reason the fitness movement is fairly new.
 
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