SolidSnakex
Member
MrSardonic said:
It's not my fault you don't remember the stuff. There was alot of bullshit slinging going around before the start of this generation.
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IF (big if) Revolution wins this gen...
- Thread starter Jonnyram
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It's not my fault you don't remember the stuff. There was alot of bullshit slinging going around before the start of this generation.
MrSardonic
The nerdiest nerd of all the nerds in nerdland
SolidSnakex said:
It's difficult to remember something that never happened
edit: someone already answered about number of buttons
WrathOfOtaibah
Banned
SolidSnakex said:
Yeah but this was during a time where Nintendo claimed to have learned their lesson with the Nintendo 64. So everyone assumed that Nintendo was going to deliver better games faster and therefore could overtake Sony and PlayStation 2. Nobody in 2000 or 2001 knew that Nintendo was going to dog it with the Game Cube.
I think there is confusion about what gimmicky means. This controller is likely going to be the most universal to date which kinda is the opposite of gimmicky. What people _do_ with it can be gimmicky, but you can make gimmicky games with other universal controllers like standard pads as well.
Before I get into any of this I'd like to say I think anyone who isnt open to a new way to control games is probably new to gaming itself at least to some degree. I've been playing on a standard pad for...christ... really most of my life at this point.. I'm ready for something a little new.. Standard gaming can barely hold my interest anymore.. I really dont care if this came from Sony, Microsoft or Nintendo, im just glad someone is doing something this radical..
Anyone who thinks it's going to be sketchy, or gimmicky, or whatever, is oblivious to the quality of Nintendo products. I mean, sure there was Virtua Boy and some other hicups, but we're not talking about MADCATZ here people..
anyway... to the topic at hand...
With the sales of the DS, I think that has rekindled peoples faith in Nintendo a bit so I wouldnt be suprised if it did really well. I really doubt Sony and Microsoft would just jump right out there and develop a new console though. I think it will take a year to two to see if the Revolution is really just that.. I think at first they would develop a wand device of thier own that would work with current systems to hold off until a brand new console.. I dont see them admitting defeat that easily and changing over so quickly..
Anyone who thinks it's going to be sketchy, or gimmicky, or whatever, is oblivious to the quality of Nintendo products. I mean, sure there was Virtua Boy and some other hicups, but we're not talking about MADCATZ here people..
anyway... to the topic at hand...
With the sales of the DS, I think that has rekindled peoples faith in Nintendo a bit so I wouldnt be suprised if it did really well. I really doubt Sony and Microsoft would just jump right out there and develop a new console though. I think it will take a year to two to see if the Revolution is really just that.. I think at first they would develop a wand device of thier own that would work with current systems to hold off until a brand new console.. I dont see them admitting defeat that easily and changing over so quickly..
Iwata claimed in 2003 that they learned their lesson. However it took time to change the development structure. And now as of 2006. YES, Nintendo learned their lesson if the DS is a signal Revolution could become big. The Gamecube however was already dead , so Iwata could change anything about it. Windwaker and Sunshine were faster, but Faster games dont equal good games thats why Zelda TP is being delayed.The Experiment said:
Its funny when people argue about the revmote - first of all theres the classic controller.
Second, having this option hurts no one, the touch screen may not be used extensively in every game, but in some games its amazing. When its not being used, it doesn't hurt anyone.
Games like Ouendan, pure brilliance only possible with the touch screen. Then theres Meteos giving me a unique puzzle experience. That is proof enough that the touch screen is not a gimmick, its a method for control which gives us something new, if its not being used, no problem!
Thirdly, why judge something you haven't tried?
Second, having this option hurts no one, the touch screen may not be used extensively in every game, but in some games its amazing. When its not being used, it doesn't hurt anyone.
Games like Ouendan, pure brilliance only possible with the touch screen. Then theres Meteos giving me a unique puzzle experience. That is proof enough that the touch screen is not a gimmick, its a method for control which gives us something new, if its not being used, no problem!
Thirdly, why judge something you haven't tried?
SolidSnakex
Member
kaizoku said:
Shouldn't that apply to both positive and negative comments?
so we've got this free-floating controller with no resistance, no fixed center, and no boundaries. and it can't be lifted and reset like a mouse, ruling out most mouse-like applications. and we're convinced it's going to be supremely precise, flexible, and intuitive. i suppose fighter aircraft only use joysticks because their designers were too stupid to come up with waggle wands.
This is exactly what could hurt them. Sure, they will come out with a handful of games that use it effectively and are innovative (as they have with DS). But, a large amount of games will use it in a gimmicky manner (see DS, again) or not use that functionality at all (see DS), leaving them as just poorer looking games playing on a controller with less buttons buttons to play "traditionally".
Obviously, none of us will know til its almost out. The hands-on demos are useless since they were concept demos and do not demonstrate how a full-on game will utilize the controller. I need to see how a real, in-depth game will use this functionality - not a simplistic game.
I'm going to place bets that if Nintendo wins, it will be based on a couple of quirky, but appealing games combined with the low price, just as the DS has (though one thing to consider, too, is that many people are willing to make a bigger investment in a home console than a handheld... one of the struggles for the PSP has to break the market). If this does end up being correct, then they could risk lots of installed users but very low tie ratios compared to the other consoles if they can't consistently match the games they sold the console based on (not to mention the groups of non-gamers they are trying to capture are not going to be the kind of people that buy software on a regular basis).
I really see a lot of parallels with the DS - the question is whether that model works for the home console market as well as it does for the handheld market. I'm going to guess not.... Which is why I don't see Sony and MS changing their strategies too much. Sony already had the EyeToy as their little "play/gimmicky" device, and they will expand on that, but it will always be a side project to them, I believe.
SolidSnakex said:
Yes. Anyone judging it already as an innovation or a gimmick simply doesn't know for sure. Not even Nintendo can know simply because its down to what the game developers can do. Renders this whole argument silly doesn't it?
But in a purely technical sense, I look forward to something new. If it doesn't work out, I have the classic controller, I have the PS3 and Xbox 360. Why dislike the revmote?
There's no reason why anyone should be negative about the Revolution. If you don't think that it'll be a good system, that's your opinion. Considering that everyone who has actually used the controller was universally positive about it, it's hard not to be a excited about the system's potential.
There will always be room for games like Dragon Quest and GTA in the next gen. And the next-next gen. Just because the control style may be different doesn't mean the traditional games may be. There will always be a market for them regardless of how well the Revolution does.
If Revolution becomes the market leader (which has the same chance to do so as the PS3 or 360 does at this point, as it's too early to say otherwise), then Sony and Microsoft will be in a pickle. Depending on how well their systems do, they may be content on just doing the same thing in 5 or 6 years, with some user input enhancements. I doubt Sony or MS will be knocked out in the next gen either, unless Sony bites off more than they can chew with the PS3 and they lose way too much money on it.
Aside: People who say they DS isn't a console and therefore can't be directly compared to them are dead wrong. If you play a handheld system at home, you're not playing the console you have at home. Handhelds compete with your home systems for play time. If a DS or PSP is getting played at home more than a PS2 or Xbox, shouldn't that tell you something about the current library of the handhelds vs. the consoles?
There will always be room for games like Dragon Quest and GTA in the next gen. And the next-next gen. Just because the control style may be different doesn't mean the traditional games may be. There will always be a market for them regardless of how well the Revolution does.
If Revolution becomes the market leader (which has the same chance to do so as the PS3 or 360 does at this point, as it's too early to say otherwise), then Sony and Microsoft will be in a pickle. Depending on how well their systems do, they may be content on just doing the same thing in 5 or 6 years, with some user input enhancements. I doubt Sony or MS will be knocked out in the next gen either, unless Sony bites off more than they can chew with the PS3 and they lose way too much money on it.
Aside: People who say they DS isn't a console and therefore can't be directly compared to them are dead wrong. If you play a handheld system at home, you're not playing the console you have at home. Handhelds compete with your home systems for play time. If a DS or PSP is getting played at home more than a PS2 or Xbox, shouldn't that tell you something about the current library of the handhelds vs. the consoles?
Warm Machine
Member
DCharlie said:
I've personally always seen the gimmick of the DS not the touch screen but the 2nd screen. I'm still baffled why they couldn't just have done 1 large screen, had that be the touch screen and then split the view as necessary.
Because I love Zelda, and I still want to see traditional games come out of Nintendo. But the Rev/DS combo could mean the end of this for them, especially if it comes down to them hitting their bottom lines.kaizoku said:
If Nintendo stated tomorrow that they were going to go 90% focused on the DS, and release 3-4 traditional games on the PS3/360 a year, I'd be in heaven.
MrSardonic
The nerdiest nerd of all the nerds in nerdland
drohne said:
You're right! Nintendo didn't think about these basic faults and failed to test their product before it was prepared for market. What the fuck were those idiots thinking! They're going to be shafted and every Revolution owner will be sitting at home thinking "what the fuck is this piece of shit" before urinating into the disc drive to materialise their anger and disappointment. It makes so much more sense to play games with a static blob that I clasp in both my sweaty hands while my thumbs and forefinger do a little dance and wiggle over 10 buttons & protruding nobs that set of in-game animations.
DCharlie
And even i am moderately surprised
this is the thing, people outside of gaf and the "gaming elite" seem to love these spastic games and non-games.
throw them a low cost console and more "spaz" friendly games with downloadable classic which also seem to sell by the bucket load , and you can see how it`s possible for N to get back in the picture (IMO of course)
MrSardonic
The nerdiest nerd of all the nerds in nerdland
Heian-kyo said:
what...is this the best reason you can come up with as to why you don't like the ideas behind the Revolution? Nintendo 3rd party? 90% support for the DS, which you consider to be a gimmick? At least make some sense in your trolling.
What happens if/when games come out on the Revolution that are not only fantastic but impossible to play using traditional pads? This is the whole point...traditional pads limit what is possible in videogame design and thus limits what consumers have the chance to play. The traditional pad also prevents a lot of crossover between home consoles and arcade experiences that any non-gamer can instantly access. I'm looking forward to what happens with the Revolution...it is the only console that has the potential to change the industry and to inject a bit more fun into gaming (which, for me personally, has been getting a little stale)
No one has actually used it in a real, actual game, though. They were tech demos. Since people are so fond of cutting down graphical tech demos for simply being tech demos, why does the same not apply to control tech demos. Sure, it may seem good in a simplistic action - but we need to be shown how well it will work in an in-depth game.
I'm not denying that it COULD do some good stuff. But, I need to see that it can be used effectively in a CONSISTENT manner (not just one or two quirky games here and there).
I don't think you could argue for a second that the handheld market plays by the same rules as the console market. Just cause some hardcore gamers use their handhelds like consoles at home does not mean that the larger population does. Look at the tie ratios for a Gameboy Advance (an extremely popular device with a large user base) compared to the PS2/Xbox (also with large user bases). Tell me that the handheld market works the same as the console market.
MrSardonic said:
The revmote does not open up the entire world of possibilities, though. You will still be restricted by the revmotes functionality. Quite frankly, every possible control scheme has limited set of what it can do. Different control schemes actually work best when they are geared specifically to the game they are made for (pad for DDR, wheel for GT4, etc). You'll still be limited. How will you play DDR with the revmote?
And before someone comes back and says you can still use it as a traditional controller - even the PSP has been limited by the lack of buttons and it has more than a revmote for traditional purposes
Heian-kyo said:
Why there are so many people that want see Nintendo out ?
Is Nintendo a problem or what ?
The fact that we'll have a revolution gaming doesn't mean that we'll have only games like Brain Training of Nintendogs: we'll have true blockbuster: long, deep, with an incredible story, incredible soudtracks, ......
There are really many many people that think taht the Revolution's controller will generate only gimmickly games, but that's absolutely false.
SolidSnakex
Member
kaizoku said:
I don't dislike it, I think it's a good idea. But I think Akihiro Hino brought up a good point when he talked about gamers arms getting tired, which is a big deal. Someone recently brought up the idea of a DMC on the Rev. 99% of DMC games are nothing but action, and your arm would get really tired fast playing a game like that with your swinging your arm around nonstop during a fight.
Amen.MrSardonic said:
I'm always amazed by the amount of negativity Nintendo can generate. People who don't welcome the revmote are assholes. Period. Not because Revolution will be better than x360/PS3. But because it will be GREAT to have an alternative console with unique games.
I think its a mistake to view the controller that way drohne, sure its technology can do that, but it should never ever be used that way in a game. That would be bad programming. We shouldn't think that the controller will be operated in that way i.e. a direct representation of an in-game object.
Even worse is to view it as a 3D mouse. Its not, its a bunch of technologies stuck together which can then be used however the developers wish. If all they do is make you swing the sword in Zelda, thats a gimmick and a damn poor one. I expect them to realise that though.
I think the most accurate comparison so far is a torch, if you hold a torch in your hand (or a laser pen) its so easy to aim on the screen, you're relaxed and everything, you just pont anywhere and it goes there. Thats one aspect of the revmote I really look forward to, finally I can play FPS games!
2nd we have the motion sensing/motion tracking. Thinking of it as a flying joystick is inaccurate and I don't think Nintendo's demos really gave us a good indication tbh. None of their demo's required the stick to have a "centre" point though, that would be the sillest thing ever. A 3D mouse would require you staying absolutely still, Nintendo showed this is not the case, you can walk around, change positions and hands and functionality would not be affected.
I love the pointer idea, if thats how it works (signs say yes) but the motion sensing seems abit mysterious so far. Racing? Nah...Swords? Nah...Paper plane style? Nah...
Really looking forward to the types of games they create with this, because its not going to suit many existing genres thats true.
Even worse is to view it as a 3D mouse. Its not, its a bunch of technologies stuck together which can then be used however the developers wish. If all they do is make you swing the sword in Zelda, thats a gimmick and a damn poor one. I expect them to realise that though.
I think the most accurate comparison so far is a torch, if you hold a torch in your hand (or a laser pen) its so easy to aim on the screen, you're relaxed and everything, you just pont anywhere and it goes there. Thats one aspect of the revmote I really look forward to, finally I can play FPS games!
2nd we have the motion sensing/motion tracking. Thinking of it as a flying joystick is inaccurate and I don't think Nintendo's demos really gave us a good indication tbh. None of their demo's required the stick to have a "centre" point though, that would be the sillest thing ever. A 3D mouse would require you staying absolutely still, Nintendo showed this is not the case, you can walk around, change positions and hands and functionality would not be affected.
I love the pointer idea, if thats how it works (signs say yes) but the motion sensing seems abit mysterious so far. Racing? Nah...Swords? Nah...Paper plane style? Nah...
Really looking forward to the types of games they create with this, because its not going to suit many existing genres thats true.
It has a dpad you know. Getting tired of saying this but it is a standard controller with the 2nd analog stick replaced with freehand control. Basically replacing look and camera control with free hand. Why you cannot see why a pointing mechanic is superior for these things than a mere analog stick I cannot understand.drohne said:
On top of that it can simulate most of all specialty/gimmick controllers like lightguns/samba de amigo controller/flightstick/microphone whatever. Even a steering wheel if you were so inclined to glue it to your PS2 wheel.
This is why it is so much more genearl/universal/generic than any other controller. Which, as I said before, is the antithesis to gimmicky.
drohne said:
You played it? Thats not the impression I got from the er...impressions. People compared it to a laser pointer which doesn't require centering at all. But it was just translating the analogue functionality so...who knows how actual new games will use it?
i haven't played it, but kobun heat described the controls in that demo as a "virtual analog stick*" and his impressions were the most detailed i've seen. you could probably find the thread.
edit: *except that he didn't, looking at that thread again. nevermind. :x
edit: *except that he didn't, looking at that thread again. nevermind. :x
norinrad21
Banned
Warm Machine said:
Thank God you don't work for Kyoto
Tyrone Slothrop
Banned
i think conventional home consoles are on their way out anyway. at the risk of sounding outlandish i think by the time the next gen ends there'll be affordable ways to utilize stereoscopic/VR technology in a way that'll be affordable to the consumer
i'm pretty sure nintendo is one step ahead of everybody else in this category too
i'm pretty sure nintendo is one step ahead of everybody else in this category too
drohne said:
Well from what I've read off EGM/1up or whatever, one of them played it standing up and then sat down and it was much better. That would mean the centre had been lost.
In an FPS, you're going to naturally centre it in the middle of the screen alot anyway, to walk and look straight etc. Thats an important distinction from keeping it centred in a 3D space while you play, re-centering it as you go.
i.e. I can keep it centred by pointing at the middle of the screen, and walk around the room and the cursor would always be in the same place.
But this is just how I imagined it. No idea where to find his impressions.
MrSardonic
The nerdiest nerd of all the nerds in nerdland
Klotera said:
No shit. But the limitations are not as restrictive as those of traditional pads. Revolution aims not only to cater for the majority of existing console genres, not only to cater for many arcade genres, but also to create new genres to expanding gaming and profits - all using a single out-of-the-box controller. This is what home gaming is all about. The potential is there.
Klotera said:
Oh no! Revolution is doomed! How will I play Revolution games with the DDR pad? Pay attention, the "revmote" will allow for new gaming experiences that cannot be replicated using traditional pads. That is why people are excited about it, because of what could be possible that isnt possible right now...as well as how some genres could be improved (control wise at least). Sure, some genres will be casualties of the change, but they were in the shift to the NES pad, and the shift to 3D, and the shift to analogue controls. It's really about how successful this gaming model turns out to be, but I'd surprised if everyone ignored it and the next consoles in 2011 stayed with the current formula.
Klotera said:
Sorry, did I miss the press-release that said the PSP has 3D motion sensing technology?
kaizoku said:
here's the thread: http://www.ga-forum.com/showthread.php?t=63993
i'm not sure i remembered his impressions accurately, but maybe you can sort them out.
Zerodoppler
Member
The Revolution might have been born because the developers within Nintendo were growing tired of making games for the old setup, or it might just have been a desperate move to get some more market share. If it's the former we should be in for a fun ride. If it takes the number one spot, who cares? It's not like there won't be developers that'll still make games like they've always used to.
norinrad21
Banned
I've been saying it for weeks now, the REV is a serious threat to sony on home turf and will end up beating the PS3 in Japan and worldwide.
between 2007/8
between 2007/8
In this day and age when the average gamer is between 16 and 35 and how the mature game market has exploded, who in their right mind would ever think that Nintendo has a chance to win another generation ever??
Look at the logistics now. A lot of people actually do want a system that does more than just play games. They want something that might be able to be a "hub" of their entertainment system. It is no accident that Sony and Microsoft have done so well in North America. I can't imagine the amount of buying decisions out there that were influenced by the fact that both the PS2 and the Xbox played dvd movies. I still know people that have picked up their first PS2 recently because it is also a dvd player (even though their kids are diehard Smash Brother fans).
There is just no way Nintendo will ever be more than third place in corporate america. The industry has changed so much.
Look at the logistics now. A lot of people actually do want a system that does more than just play games. They want something that might be able to be a "hub" of their entertainment system. It is no accident that Sony and Microsoft have done so well in North America. I can't imagine the amount of buying decisions out there that were influenced by the fact that both the PS2 and the Xbox played dvd movies. I still know people that have picked up their first PS2 recently because it is also a dvd player (even though their kids are diehard Smash Brother fans).
There is just no way Nintendo will ever be more than third place in corporate america. The industry has changed so much.
Ghengis Cohen
Banned
Heian-kyo said:
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