I relate to OP. The only reason I love AAA games is because they often strive to tell big character stories (TLOU/RDR). I like big character stories. To be fair, I don't have a PC and thus have yet to find an indie game that tells a good story with interesting characters. Hotline miami is a really interesting story, but that minimal dialogue/character thing bores me.
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If console AAA titles wind down what will become of us gamers who thrive on them?
- Thread starter Maninthemirror
- Start date
Solid warrior
Banned
It was Steam on Home Consoles. You refused it and many did.
Current business model is $60 + DLCs + Season Pass and whatever and they rarely make a profit.
Thaumaturgic Tomato
Member
Industry can and should keep pushing tech power forward. But I think they'd see much better returns by doing highly concentrated (art, tech, gameplay, story) lower priced games. Look at CD Projekt and Witcher 3. They don't need GTA budget for that beauty they're giving us. And it is a huge game that will last 800 hours.
$40, $20, $15, any price level under $60 will fix the financial mismanagement of AAA studios. And that's what it is. Financial stupidity. 1000 member teams for 6 hour games.
Unfortunately the term "budget" has a bad connotation thanks to the crappy phone/tablet POS game explosion.
Budget simply means properly managing cost and team size to sale price. Not quality.
Great artists and sensible management can make a "budget" game of AAA quality with a much smaller team and much better profit ratio.
AAA companies need to concentrate talent on multiple "budget" projects instead of diluting a single project with hundreds of voiceless employees.
That's why so many AAA games are empty experiences.
$40, $20, $15, any price level under $60 will fix the financial mismanagement of AAA studios. And that's what it is. Financial stupidity. 1000 member teams for 6 hour games.
Unfortunately the term "budget" has a bad connotation thanks to the crappy phone/tablet POS game explosion.
Budget simply means properly managing cost and team size to sale price. Not quality.
Great artists and sensible management can make a "budget" game of AAA quality with a much smaller team and much better profit ratio.
AAA companies need to concentrate talent on multiple "budget" projects instead of diluting a single project with hundreds of voiceless employees.
That's why so many AAA games are empty experiences.
Sanctuary
Member
Show me more than five indie games that don't look like simple reworks of something you'd see on the SNES or PC in the 90s, but in HD. Most of these "mechanically involved and interesting titles" had already been done to death. If anything, most "indie" games should just be called retro HD.
He never actually specified indie either, but it's like anymore it's either AAA or it's indie. If you play AAA, you're just a mainstream and terrible scrub, but if you play indie, you're some super enlightented gamer who is above such silly things as graphics and aesthetics with an entertainment form that is based around a visual medium.
AAA is such a stupid term anyway though and seems to be used only for games that cost the most to make. The shots he posted of Dark Souls is the perfect example of an "(A)AA" game, since the middle tier really hasn't existed for a long time now.
Coffee Dog
Banned
Quit strawmanning. Are you interested in a discussion or not?
No he is just interested in declaring indie games wholesale with stereotypes but balks at any such with the current trend of AAA games.
He still haven't responded to his attacking a stereotype with stereotypes of his own.
How does that differ from most 'AAA' games, which play just just like 90's shooters and action games, only in HD, and with AAA budgets?
Metal Gear?!
Member
The same thing that happened to people who thrived on ADVENTURES or SHUMPS or WING COMMANDERS or now JRPGS. Games are still being made in those genres but they will no longer be AAA. You learn to live with the lower marketing and development budgets.
Haunted
Member
Might I ask what you are discussing? Telling fans of AAA games that they're shallow, bloated, unfocused and otherwise inferior to indie games isn't going to engender a "discussion". He had just put out why he doesn't like the current indie/retro trend and you call it a strawman. There is no "discussion" to be had.
Dion Blaster
Member
What is stopping them from putting a steam-like storefront on the One right now?
entremet
Member
I think AAA will survive on 1st party as 1st party commonly drives the tech of their consoles, so in a sense it's part of the marketing budget.
Sony, Nintendo, and MS still are funding pretty expensive projects.
If you notice, it's mostly 3rd party AAA that has been squeezed although MS and Sony did cull studios last generation.
UberTag
Member
AAA games are largely crap or money pits for any developer not named Rockstar North, Bethesda or Naughty Dog.
Gamers would be far better off without a bunch of other titles masquerading as AAA that inevitably disappoint from studios that reach beyond their means. Whether that means embracing indies or handhelds.
Frankly, if you're a gamer that only thrives on the big console AAA titles, there's a world of rich gaming experiences you haven't even experienced yet because a title with a budget that bloated isn't able to take risks and/or innovate in a meaningful way.
This is a flawed publisher model and the sooner the bubble bursts on these pubs and dev studios, the better it will be for all parties concerned. Yes, even the people who will lose their jobs will land on their feet in a better situation.
Gamers would be far better off without a bunch of other titles masquerading as AAA that inevitably disappoint from studios that reach beyond their means. Whether that means embracing indies or handhelds.
Frankly, if you're a gamer that only thrives on the big console AAA titles, there's a world of rich gaming experiences you haven't even experienced yet because a title with a budget that bloated isn't able to take risks and/or innovate in a meaningful way.
This is a flawed publisher model and the sooner the bubble bursts on these pubs and dev studios, the better it will be for all parties concerned. Yes, even the people who will lose their jobs will land on their feet in a better situation.
I don't understand. Are you asking for more than five indie games that don't look like SNES games?
Coffee Dog
Banned
Well that's risk you take discussing any art form. If i shit on transformers 3 and call it shallow, bloated, etc, and back my opinions up with examples from the movie itself, will that engender discussion with people who love the film? Probably not. They probably dont watch that many movies and transformers suits their needs just fine. Most people dont like it when someone criticizes a thing they like. That's just what happens when you talk about art.
But his post was most definitely a strawman, regarding his portrayal of indie games.
nelsonroyale
Member
I think there is a place for all things, but AAA devs need to get more creative. It hasn't quite gotten as bad as the movie industry yet, but money is talking to much. We need more creative risks. Still, there are quite a few AAA games I am anticipating. I like tech and so those are my main outlets these days for gaming.
Not sure if he is serious because that would be quite an easy thing to do, but for him "Indie" is probably retro platformers.
It's pretty telling of this industry's direction that I feel the exact opposite: where the fuck will I go once AAA(A) ends up being all there is? I fucking despise AAA games and not because I'm just "too cool" for them, but because they offer, literally, nothing to me (and believe me, Ive given them too many chances), they're just not fun.
I know the answer already though: Indies and hopefully Nintendo
I don't think he cares. Those "better movies/better games" are not something he cares about. No amount of logic is going to make Gone Home or Papers Please appeal to me.
The risks most indie devs take are not risks that appeal to me. Hopefully these indie devs grow into mid-tier companies and don't stay indie. I'm hoping that smaller companies like Ironclad can put in an actual campaign in the next Sins of A Solar Empire, AAA in thought while not necessarily AAA in execution.
th4tguy
Member
As long as there is demand for it, you will see them. If publishers aren't willing to fund them, you will see them crowd funded. The best thing to happen to this industry and our hobby is the ability for developers to publish their own software on consoles and PC and be able to reach the same large market they would have seen through brick and mortar stores years ago.
There are still developers who want to make blockbuster AAA games. You have nothing to worry about.
There are still developers who want to make blockbuster AAA games. You have nothing to worry about.
AAA titles aren't "winding down." Like every other media form at the moment, the highest earning products are selling in greater numbers than ever. There will be fewer and fewer of them, and they will cost more and more to make. And the audiences will keep growing.
So, no, they aren't "winding down."
However, they will increasingly become the provenance of paint-by-numbers design philosophies and Michael Bay-style production leads. Only the biggest publishers will be able to make them, and there will only be a handful of AAA IP per publisher. But really, this has already happened. What we're seeing with Ken Levine and Cliffy B is just the shake-off from last generation. The shift already happened.
So, no, they aren't "winding down."
However, they will increasingly become the provenance of paint-by-numbers design philosophies and Michael Bay-style production leads. Only the biggest publishers will be able to make them, and there will only be a handful of AAA IP per publisher. But really, this has already happened. What we're seeing with Ken Levine and Cliffy B is just the shake-off from last generation. The shift already happened.
Out of Working Order
Member
I wholeheartedly agree. Clearly there is a problem with games that take upwards of 3 years to produce with all resources poured into them, when every game is make-or-break.
Coffee Dog
Banned
Well, as long as you admit it isn't really logical, that's cool. People like what they like, you dont have to be any different.
Also, Sins of A Solar Empire is not even remotely AAA in it's design lol, it's okay to admit you like niche shit, jeez.
I think we have to worry about this. Small to medium budget tittles are the ones which are in risk situation. All of them are being replaced by indies that's what worries me about.
I miss 16-bit to PS2 era where, there were tons and tons of middle budget titles full gamer gems.
Games like MGS, Resident, CoD will never cease.
Vita, later PS3 lifespan and seems the first PS4 days lags of B, A or AA titles. Is all about indies or Big franchises with one or two exceptions time to time.
Sentenza
Member
Probably, yes.
Just because everyone has an opinion (and every right to hold on it) that doesn't mean they are all worth the same.
I know SoaSE is far from AAA, I just want an actual story campaign.
And my avatar already admits I like niche shit lol.
He wants us to argue with his stereotype of what an indie game is. Indie games is a very broad category and there is a lot more diversity in that space than in the AAA space.
I'm sure you'll get a Lebowski-esque response, but you're right.
TakeItSlowDude
Member
A Tale of Two Cities, Lord of the Rings, 2001, Godfather, Half Life 2, Starcraft 2, ect, ect, ect. Your generalization falls apart easily, and banal is often applied post hoc to big sellers.
Vulcano's assistant
Banned
We really need those fox searchlight equivalents, not everything can be Cleopatra, My Fair Lady, The Sound of Music, and Ben Hur.
Compared to film history, we are now going from the 60's to the 70's. Gaming won't be the same, but it doesn't mean that the epics will be less frequent, just that they will not be the only thing.
Compared to film history, we are now going from the 60's to the 70's. Gaming won't be the same, but it doesn't mean that the epics will be less frequent, just that they will not be the only thing.
They love "cinematic experiences" they could also go to the cinema.
I like you.
Coffee Dog
Banned
That only proves my generalization; how often do we get films like the godfather and 2001? I do admit it's just that, a generalization, and there are outliers such as the examples you provided.
It's just that those examples are very, very, few and far between.
Just wait a few more years, some 'games' are getting closer to the interactivity of a movie more then ever.
Coffee Dog
Banned
Just saying, indie games have done a lot of experimentation with the concept of interactivity in storytelling
Anticitizen One
Banned
if the death of AAA means Resident Evil becomes survival horror again, MGS has a more grounded plot because the studio is desperate for sales and doesn't want Kojimas weirdness alienating customers, more games like Donkey Kong Country, more FPS games like DOOM and Duke Nukem, the return of starfighter games, the return of hover car racers, and the death of call of duty then sign me the FUCK up for the death of AAA gaming.
why not play more Telltale Games or point and click adventures?
Typical of this forum really. Like what I like or your stupid nonsense. Hope we get a better balance of both.
People want AAA games but at bargin bin prices. People want Indie with more polish but not more than 5 bucks. AAA is horrible or your stupid. Indie games are16 bit money grab throwbacks or your stupid.
Crazy times.
That's not fair. Games bring a unique experience to story telling that you simply can't get with books and movies. TLOU tells a story SIGNIFICANTLY better as a game then it would have as a book or movie. Same with classic FF's and all that shit. I hate that whenever I say that I enjoy the storytelling aspect in game I get the same snide "read a book, idiot" answer. Games are whatever we want them to be. I happen to like story the most. I still like gameplay, and I wouldn't remove gameplay from any of my favorite games, but what drives me to games is story and characters.
Ideally, you'll get to relive the nightmare that the other side suffered through over the last 15-20 years, where we saw gaming's cornerstone companies abandon mechanically interesting, no-filler experiences for bloated handholdy pap.
Except in reverse and you end up with a happy ending where games are generally better for it.
You lucky jerk.
Except in reverse and you end up with a happy ending where games are generally better for it.
You lucky jerk.
TakeItSlowDude
Member
Enough that I would be hesitant to call anything popular banal, also complexity != quality (Die Hard, T2, Alien, Aliens are all quality movies that are simple but well executed). I would also argue that television today challenges your generalization (Mad Men, The Wire, House of Cards, Breaking Bad, Game of Thrones, Downton Abbey, ect). I tend to think that execution has a greater bearing on popularity than does complexity.
Because they take forever to come out. Also my very specific thirst for story telling in games is less quenched by games where choices matter. To me (and this is a SUPER GENERAL statement) the choice mechanic takes away from the potential impact of a story. You limit your story scope when you include choices that actually matter to the ending. I'm a huge hypocrite I know. I just want more TLOU type games... That's all. I don't need them to be AAA, I just love that marriage of great story and interesting game play with an beginning middle and end that aren't defined by my own dumb story choices.
Btw I'm 100% sure that at least some indie games will start to emulate that type of story telling in the future.