That's just a ridiculous thing to have to say no matter how it's structured. Some things you have to let go. We're talking about flying demon creatures searching for space boxes that open boom tubes usually used by a New God on an inferno planet called Apokolips.
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IGN: Justice League is lighter and more fun than BvS
- Thread starter Theorry
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That's just a ridiculous thing to have to say no matter how it's structured. Some things you have to let go. We're talking about flying demon creatures searching for space boxes that open boom tubes usually used by a New God on an inferno planet called Apokolips.
Deb?
Not gonna lie - I have less confidence in Snyder being able to pull of light and fun than just deliver an action heavy plot lite movie.
The issue with BvS (and to a lesser extent MoS) is that Snyder seems somehow to inject a somewhat dreary, dull aspect into many of his films despite the action etc going on. He often settles for or only seems to get fairly flat performances from his cast too which doesn't help.
It just makes them often feel like a chore at times.
Nolan showed audiences were perfectly happy to accept dark and moody: and TBH Nolan's Batman films are far darker thematically and conceptually that BvS which is really dark and moody lite without redeeming thematic depth and some levity and sense of tone and pace.
Sorry but I'm still very much on the Snyder is the core issue bandwagon so I'm not expecting much improvement.
Hopefully for fans of the comics I'm wrong, as I'd prefer a good movie over a bad any time and don't want Snyder or the film to fail. But I just have low confidence in Snyder. He hasn't made a great film yet and has struggled to deliver good films to boot.
The issue with BvS (and to a lesser extent MoS) is that Snyder seems somehow to inject a somewhat dreary, dull aspect into many of his films despite the action etc going on. He often settles for or only seems to get fairly flat performances from his cast too which doesn't help.
It just makes them often feel like a chore at times.
Nolan showed audiences were perfectly happy to accept dark and moody: and TBH Nolan's Batman films are far darker thematically and conceptually that BvS which is really dark and moody lite without redeeming thematic depth and some levity and sense of tone and pace.
Sorry but I'm still very much on the Snyder is the core issue bandwagon so I'm not expecting much improvement.
Hopefully for fans of the comics I'm wrong, as I'd prefer a good movie over a bad any time and don't want Snyder or the film to fail. But I just have low confidence in Snyder. He hasn't made a great film yet and has struggled to deliver good films to boot.
Zemo seems to be kinda lucky as fuck whilst Lex kinda convoluted was spinning plates and playing 3D chess. How did Zemo know Scarlet Witch would be incapable of containing the blast? why did the Avengers keep the vision behind? How did Zemo know Stark and Cap would disagree? Any of these parts fell through the whole plan goes to shit
MisterHero
Super Member
*Open to the assembled Justice League visiting Clark Kent's grave in civilian guise*
Superman pops out.
"Well that tickled."
Cue title JUSTICE LEAGUE
Superman pops out.
"Well that tickled."
Cue title JUSTICE LEAGUE
ThoseDeafMutes
Member
And Cap was 1 nanometer away from agreeing until Tony let slip that he was placing Wanda under house arrest. And even after that, he would simply have retired until Bucky was broken out again. The movie was building up as if Zemo had some long term goal that he was trying to get at, the Winter Soldiers, but realistically his search for them was completely incidental and in the process of finding out that information he accidentally caused his "master plan to destroy the avengers" to succeed.
Lex's plan is poorly explained, in no small part due to cut or badly edited scenes, but he's definitely working towards it. Slander and set up Superman, turn the public against him, get him into a fight with Batman. He just outright extorts him to try and force the fight when he's clearly not willing to do it. Neither are particularly good plans, it's just that one exists in a better movie. Zemo reminds me of The Dark Knight's Joker schemes within schemes that make marginal sense but just kind of work out spectacularly anyway.
So true. When both plans are held under the light of scrutiny Lex's plan holds muster there's a logical A leads to B, B leads to C. This is the case with the theatrical cut. What I read of the director's cut it shows even more steps and fills some of the holes I had. Zemo is lucky and winged it.
ThoseDeafMutes
Member
You may or may not have, however the thing about BvS and MoS is that no matter what your criticism of it was, there is always someone who will say "no that wasn't the problem, the REAL problem is ___". There absolutely were people complaining about how "joyless" and "dark" and "depressing" these films were. Even about how lacking in colour they were. There were people complaining about, essentially, every aspect. Not everybody complained about every aspect, you understand, but if it was in the film, there was at least someone somewhere complaining about it.
Naturally, what this means is that no matter how they do a course correction it's never going to satisfy everyone and it's always going to have a lot of people saying that they failed to learn the right lessons.
IMO, people don't know what the heck they want until they see it.
NipplesAndToes23
Member
I'm surprised Zack Snyder was so surprised about the fan reaction to Batman v Superman.
Dash_Riprock
Member
I'm sure his wife told him people just don't understand his genius.
Dash_Riprock
Member
I'm only assuming here, but I'm thinking that any site headline claiming that DC IS GOING FULL MARVEL or JUSTICE LEAGUE IS FULL ON FUN BONANZA are either baiting for clicks or are over-exaggerating how much "humor" the film will contain.
The tone will certain be lighter, it kinda has to considering the subject matter, but I don't think DCEU fans will have to worry about Stepphenwolf making omelette jokes.
Even as one of the few who very much enjoyed the grim tone of BvS, I totally get why they need to be less dour. You simply can't have Ancient Aliens and Atlanteans in a dark, dour film. That'd just be silly.
Consider me hyped to watch Battfleck cook up some Parademons
The tone will certain be lighter, it kinda has to considering the subject matter, but I don't think DCEU fans will have to worry about Stepphenwolf making omelette jokes.
Even as one of the few who very much enjoyed the grim tone of BvS, I totally get why they need to be less dour. You simply can't have Ancient Aliens and Atlanteans in a dark, dour film. That'd just be silly.
Consider me hyped to watch Battfleck cook up some Parademons
I can't believe folks are getting miffed that the Synders are discussing tone when it was a common complaint surrounding the DCEU for the last four years and across two movies. It's come up when discussing movies that haven't even been released, even; just recall the reactions to the first shots of Suicide Squad (hilarious in hindsight, considering everything we've seen since) and the short clip of Wonder Woman we saw.
Was tone the only reason people disliked MoS and/or BvS? No. Pacing, editing, writing, etc have been noted as problems with one or both films. But it was a pretty damn big reason, and something many of the very same sites doing these set reports have written and complained about themselves.
Again, tone was not the only thing, but it was a thing. And given that it's fairly easy thing to address in a set visit and the thing the vast majority of the audience understood, you can't really blame them for addressing that plainly.
Was tone the only reason people disliked MoS and/or BvS? No. Pacing, editing, writing, etc have been noted as problems with one or both films. But it was a pretty damn big reason, and something many of the very same sites doing these set reports have written and complained about themselves.
Again, tone was not the only thing, but it was a thing. And given that it's fairly easy thing to address in a set visit and the thing the vast majority of the audience understood, you can't really blame them for addressing that plainly.
Why? You think he intentionally put out a bad movie?
Subpar Spatula
Banned
The tone of the movie isn't why it failed. You can make a fun and lighter movie and it will still suck if the writing, editing, and story suck.
Tone (which bleeds into the MUH SUPERMAN issues) has always been one of the biggest fanboy issue. To claim otherwise now is preposterous.
that's a great logo dude
That was a great logo.
MisterHero
Super Member
Giant Spider Mecha
Get wrekt Kevin Smith
Discotheque
Banned
it's a nice logo imo. simple. I prefer it over the various ones DC has had.
the movies (from both) do a good job of throwing comic panel splashes into their logo, that's always dope.
the movies (from both) do a good job of throwing comic panel splashes into their logo, that's always dope.
I truly believe that at this point they're putting as many giant spider-like things in these movies as possible just to take the piss out of Kevin Smith and Jon Peters.
Undead Fantasy
Member
Lighter...?
Cipher Peon
Banned
"lighter and more fun"
ugh
Batman v Superman's dark serious tone wasn't what I hated about it. I MUCH prefer dark and gritty over the MCU's tone for a large majority of their films. Hell, I found Batman v Superman to be INCREDIBLY fun despite it being a horrendously written, directed, edited, acted, cast, and paced film.
There are so many problems with it and the dark and grittiness takes the hit
ugh
Batman v Superman's dark serious tone wasn't what I hated about it. I MUCH prefer dark and gritty over the MCU's tone for a large majority of their films. Hell, I found Batman v Superman to be INCREDIBLY fun despite it being a horrendously written, directed, edited, acted, cast, and paced film.
There are so many problems with it and the dark and grittiness takes the hit
"lighter and more fun"
ugh
Batman v Superman's dark serious tone wasn't what I hated about it. I MUCH prefer dark and gritty over the MCU's tone for a large majority of their films. Hell, I found Batman v Superman to be INCREDIBLY fun despite it being a horrendously written, directed, edited, acted, cast, and paced film.
There are so many problems with it and the dark and grittiness takes the hit
Faracis example of this is a simple smile from Wonder Woman when Cyborg enters a scene. Or a sarcastic comment/joke by Batman. I think people are hugely overreacting. It was always going to include jokes once you include characters like the flash and Cyborg.
Did Jon Peters have a hand in this?
Cipher Peon
Banned
I'm probably overreacting, yeah. I just find myself illogically defensive when it comes to removing dark and gritty from superhero stuff.
I love my dark and gritty superheroes and I'm still really bummed about Arrow's tonal shift in Season 4.
SchrodingerC
Member
As long as Snyder stops making Superman into a depressing space Jesus allegory that would be a massive improvement.
You can have a dark, moody superhero movie, but don't have a joyless Superman looking miserable while saving people with funeral music playing.
You can have a dark, moody superhero movie, but don't have a joyless Superman looking miserable while saving people with funeral music playing.
GodParticle
Member
I just hope they don't swing to the opposite end and have batman doing fart jokes.
Batman voice: Hey, supes...pull my finger
On second thought, that would be kind of amazing
Batman voice: Hey, supes...pull my finger
On second thought, that would be kind of amazing
DavidFoundation300
Banned
Whatever DC just give me more of that Batman kicking ass like in BVS that was fun to watch reminded me of the games.
Sadly, I wish two scenes from the UE weren't cut
They pretty much show how much Lex was playing Clark and Bruce off of each other.
MegaManTrigger
Banned
They didn't play a part at all. Not when you realize that Superman never actively escalated the conflict after all of Luthor's attempts. Even when he meets face to face with Batman, all he does is trash his Batmobile and tell him to stop what he's doing. This makes all of Lex's planning and detail unnecessary and redundant. In fact, the only reason Superman even fights is because Lex kidnapped his mom, why not even do that in the first place if the point was to fight? All of the manipulation nonsense seem like distractions and complicated chicanery.
Zemo's plan relied on things going smoothly (someone here said it's like the Joker's plans in TDK, which I think is an apt comparison), but it was simple and to the point. He added gasoline to the fire by having two factions divided on how Bucky should be apprehended, which is taken a whole other level when Stark finds out about the video. It was effective and understandable, which I can't say the same for Luthor.
Two of your questions are irrelevant:
- Scarlett Witch's mishap was never manipulated by Zemo, it was a mission that went wrong by the New Avengers during the start of the movie.
- Vision being kept behind had nothing to do with Zemo. Stark had her held so that she wouldn't make the same mistake and as such further damage the Avengers' reputation from a PR standpoint.
Zemo knowing Stark and Cap would disagree is fairly obvious. The Sokovian Accords went into place prior to Zemo making an impact. More importantly, he was manipulating the fact that Rogers wouldn't be impartial about his friend, while Tony would simply do the Sokovian Accords' work in apprehending Bucky, even if he was completely innocent. Furthermore, using the video was manipulating Tony in the sense that he would seek revenge against his parents' killer.
ArtHands
Thinks buying more servers can fix a bad patch
The entire Lagos incident is not part of Zemo's part at all. In fact, the Sokovia accord isn't what Zemo has planned. He's just riding on the tension arised from it to steer the situation towards his end goal.
You're confused. Lex was not manipulating Superman into fighting Batman. Lex merely wanted Superman to think Batman could not be reasoned with. Two scenes enforce this especially. When Superman stops Batman from chasing KGBeast he doesn't ask what Batman is doing, he doesn't allow Batman to say anything. He just tells Batman to hang it up and leaves. The second time is during the fight where Superman gives up trying to explain to Batman what is actually going on. Batman was pretty clear that he wasn't going to listen by continuously interrupting and attacking Superman while he tried to speak.
Lex's manipulation was concentrated on Batman and the public opinion of Superman. Like 90% of all the work went into that. Africa, the returned paychecks, getting Wallace to speak out, blowing up Capitol Hill. All of that was to paint Superman in the worst light and push Batman over the edge.
Yea, Zemo's plan was simple but it only worked because he got lucky that everything played out the way it needed to. Lex was in full control across the board.
supermarioworldE
Banned
Thanks for the heads up, guys.
I thought Affleck already looked a little silly in that cowl for BVS. Maybe they'll use another suit to accommodate any daytime set scenes.
Couldn't agree more. I haven't been that bothered by the editing in a theatrical film since World War Z.
VexMythoclast
Banned
Like so many people have said here, being dark and serious wasn't the problem with BvS. The problem is it was a vapid mess that felt like a glorified fan fiction that had no coherent exposition and some fight scenes had no purpose other than looking cool.
The only thing Zemo was at all involved in was framing Bucky and leaving a breadcrumb trail to Siberia. He knows about Cap's sentiment towards his friend, and knows about what happened in 1991. That's all his plan was. Lagos, Scarlet Witch, the accords, Black Panther, none of that was part of his plan.
Also Vision seems extremely non-combative. He didn't even want to kill Ultron because "he's unique". He tries to easily incapacitate Clint, but in no way harm him. He shoots a blast to halt Cap's team. He shoots the tower to block Cap/Bucky's way. He knocks into Ant-Man during that scene. He protects Black Panther from a bus.
The most aggressive thing he does actually towards someone is aiming at Falcon's boosters, and that goes severely awry.
Shit, you already saw the tone change with WW. She llgjtens Bruce up, she enjoys fighting monsters, and both Batman and Superman are clearly awestruck by how awesome she is.
It's a nice change from the MCU. Like WW actually does feel like she's from a completely different genre, which is something they've struggled with re: Thor. And from the sounds of it Flash is the same way - dude seems like he's from a goofy 90s superhero film, which is great.
-Plasma Reus-
Service guarantees member status
Stephen wolf is the bad guy? Welp. Another CGI bad guy. Good luck.
Well, it is the Justice League. It'd look strange if they were rendered inert by a trickster with a ridiculously obvious plan and the Putty Patrol off Power Rangers. If it's not an omega threat, the JL aren't needed.
Snyder isn't a bad director. He just makes weird movies that don't fall into the predictable formula of the Hollywood Blockbuster. I'm fine with that, but obviously a lot of people aren't because those Blockbusters are supposed to be comfort food for the most part. They're not supposed go against expectations but that's how Snyder wants to approach his movies.
As a person that likes movies of all kinds, Snyder does right by me. If JL stays true to his vision, it should be a rocking ass movie
and I'll be there day one.
Nemesis121
Member
The people in charge of DC movies have to be new, how you could forget Batman are dark movies and yet they made money, because they were WELL FUCKING MADE..
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