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I'm not really enjoying Bayonetta 2.

The Lamp said:
What does this even mean? What is so appealing about amnesia?? Bayonetta is much more confident, witty, relatable and enjoyable in the sequel.

This thread honestly shocks me. Considering the praise the game got in the OT, I'm dumbfounded there is anyone who thinks Bayonetta 2 did not visibly improve upon everything from the first game. I can't think of a single thing it did worse. The Umbran Climax, as explained in the OT months ago, has a specific gameplay purpose (I don't remember, it was eloquently explained). I just don't get the backlash. The game is everything I wanted from a sequel. Thank god for no long shitty racing segments or the God-awful level design of 1.
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It's not an inherent quality of amnesia, it's just happenstance that she had amnesia at the beginning of her arc. I can't say if the amnesia is actually dictating her personality, just that it's changed now that she's recovered. I think the appeal is more a direct result of her circumstances, where in the first game she's completely alone, treats enzo and rodin more like business partners, and is only in it for herself. Obviously her arc means that she changed by the end, but there's no real replacement for that sort of stuff in the second game, and it just doesn't appeal as much to me. I liked her better when she only cared about herself, and the helping or involvement of others was met with reluctance. That's just my preference though; I can see how others might like her more in the sequel. The vulnerability and sensitivity just don't gel with the persona established in the first game (even if it was supposed to be because of amnesia).

And on Umbran Climax, that may have been Saur or someone quoting his observations. He said at one point that UC replaced WW as a means of enemy manipulation. But I think he later realised that it isn't really a suitable substitute since it can't be combined or integrated in as meaningful a way. You can't toggle it on and off in order to perform creatively, so it doesn't make up for the lack of options outside of it.
 
Game starts off awesome and continues to be more awesome. I'm perplexed by this since you enjoyed the first game. I finished it in one sitting. Some of the later boss fights were incredible.
 
The Lamp said:
This thread honestly shocks me. Considering the praise the game got in the OT, I'm dumbfounded there is anyone who thinks Bayonetta 2 did not visibly improve upon everything from the first game. I can't think of a single thing it did worse.
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Off the top of my head, Moon of Mahaa-Kalaa sucks, the classic game homage stuff was hugely toned down (nothing as extravagant as remixes of Splash Wave, Space Harrier Main Theme or After Burner), bosses aren't as elaborate or as varied, it's shorter, and the sequel's finale is barely a whimper compared to the first game's literal big bang. And yeah, I miss Angel Attack.

You say you don't like the level design of the original, which provided fun distractions and added new concepts to the core fighting (enemies on fire, protecting Cereza while the plane floods, avoiding being flattened by Golem while fighting enemies and collecting key pieces from chests, the Golem chase down the slide, the chase through the tunnel with the love-smitten Beloved, killing water enemies to fill the lake so you can traverse it etc). The sequel has very little of the level variety and setpieces that B1 had. It's basically just fight after fight after fight under the same conditions.

You may call the absence of these features streamlining or fat-cutting, but for many I'm sure, these were elements of the game missed in the sequel. And that's not to say the sequel doesn't make improvements of its own, but there are many legit reasons to prefer the original.
 
I agree with you, OP. I'm a huge, huge fan of the first game (Pure Platinum'd it on Hard; played for hundreds of hours) but didn't enjoy the second as much.

The characters and story never get significantly better. It improves slightly when Loki falls out of the story for a bit, but he's back in it by the end. The plot/writing/cutscenes never really achieve the same level of fun as the first game.

EDIT:

Sub Boss put my thoughts into words more eloquently than I could a few posts above.

I tried to go back and Platinum 3rd Climax a while back. I gave up on the last Chapter when Balder saves a fallen Bayonetta from the final boss and delivers the big-heroic-time-to-turn-the-tables-line: "That is the power of man."

It's not just about Bayo 2 missing the first game's awesome gender message/portrayals. The story just isn't fun. Balder2/Aesir are terrible villains compared to Jeanne/Balder1. Rosa is wasted. The first game story made more sense the more you thought about it thanks to great attention to detail, but Bayo 2 is littered with plot holes and laziness that make it clear just how much they were retconning.

They took one step forward in gameplay and about two dozen steps backwards in story/characters/tone/overall fun.
 
I prefer the first one as well, specially on the hardest setting...that damage.
But Bayo 2 is amazing as well. It will probally click with you after the first playtrough. And dont dismiss multiplayer, its actually a lot of fun.
I have currently near 50 hours on Bayo 2 and the more i play it the more i like it.
It lost a bit of charm from the first one, but the first is an homage to Sega and Yu Suzuki, it's difficult to beat that feeling.
The opening chapter of Bayo 2 is astonishing, fighting on the jets and that final with a huge Boss. I love it. And it just gets better, love the pacing and enemy variety..
 
Everyone has unique experiences with certain games but damn man...I honestly don't see how anyone could not love the shit outta Bayo 2 if they loved the first.

Bayo 2 does everything bigger and better than 1...with maybe the exception being the story but that's completely subjective.
 
I played them both back to back last year and Bayonetta 2 was like Bayonetta 1, but better in every way. Maybe your memory / nostalgia of Bayonetta 1 is skewed if it's been a while since you played it?
 
popyea said:
It's not an inherent quality of amnesia, it's just happenstance that she had amnesia at the beginning of her arc. I can't say if the amnesia is actually dictating her personality, just that it's changed now that she's recovered. I think the appeal is more a direct result of her circumstances, where in the first game she's completely alone, treats enzo and rodin more like business partners, and is only in it for herself. Obviously her arc means that she changed by the end, but there's no real replacement for that sort of stuff in the second game, and it just doesn't appeal as much to me. I liked her better when she only cared about herself, and the helping or involvement of others was met with reluctance. That's just my preference though; I can see how others might like her more in the sequel. The vulnerability and sensitivity just don't gel with the persona established in the first game (even if it was supposed to be because of amnesia).

And on Umbran Climax, that may have been Saur or someone quoting his observations. He said at one point that UC replaced WW as a means of enemy manipulation. But I think he later realised that it isn't really a suitable substitute since it can't be combined or integrated in as meaningful a way. You can't toggle it on and off in order to perform creatively, so it doesn't make up for the lack of options outside of it.
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Besides a slightly change on personality, which could or not make sense, Bayonetta has some good moments on the sequel, but the game actually tries to push her away at every opportunity to give the spotlight to the other characters, especially Loki., considering the type of character she is that was a mistake.
 
Haven't played Bayo 2 yet, but came to join in on the Bayo 1 love. It's the best character action game ever(DMC3 is a close second) and one of my favorite games of all time.
 
I can understand preferring the first game as the combat does have some differences. The first game treats Witch Time as training wheels and shows you on higher difficulties that you don't need it. You're a force of nature and you can endlessly aircombo most enemies to death by just doing simple enemy step cancel combos.

In 2, Witch Time is a fundamental part of the combat. You can't really launch certain enemies into long air combos unless time is slowed down or if you're using Umbran Climax. And the game is more designed around the mechanic as a whole.

That being said, I do prefer 2. I think the overall flow allows for more varied approaches. I don't really get not liking one versus the other honestly, the two are both so similar that it's kind of hard to imagine. Even if you prefer 1, 2 is a great game.
 
Both are amazing. I enjoyed 2 more.
Played the original on 360, then 2 and then the Wii U port of 1.

I'm not super hardcore into the game, I'm a Ninja Gaiden guy. So I can't speak to the more in depth mechanics or subtleties of the story. But 2 was a more fun journey for me. Just started replaying it on infinite climax mode and I'm still having fun.
 
Sub Boss said:
? you mean like the Golem crushing the floor, or Iustitia? i guess but do you really want these on an action game?
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I mean stuff more along the line of simple props, columns, stairs, platforms, barriers. Anything that makes you consider your surroundings and requires a tiniest bit of effort to reach certain enemies.
The first game had that and more (using moving cars as platforms, using monster boat corpses as platforms, wall running after Jeanne), in the second game pretty much every encounter could take place in a featureless challenge room.
These games have really solid movement mechanics, it's a shame they've cut down on their usefulness in combat.
 
I get why some prefer the first game, as it was the start of a new franchise and felt incredibly fresh because of that. The world Kamiya and his team created was so over the top and unique and it would be basically impossible for the sequel to recreate that magic. I think it's the same reason why certain people preferred The Wonderful 101 to Bayonetta 2, because it was another fresh, new experience from Kamiya. Those same people are almost guaranteed to prefer Scalebound over Bayonetta 2 as well.

Personally, I absolutely adore both Bayonetta titles but preferred the sequel by a significant amount.
 
I don't agree at all.
I liked Bayonetta 2 to the point that it made it really hard to go back to bayonetta 1.

I've actually been playing Bayonetta 1 over the past few days (didn't finish the WiiU version when I got it Bayo 2) and it's just worse than 2 in everything except mabye the plot.
Worse graphics, worse performance, worse bosses, less enemy variety, Less weapon variety and a lot of them feel the same, worse locations, the "different" gameplay sections are way worse (bike and misile).
And what is truly making it hard to finish after Bayo 2 is the terrible pacing. Bayo 2 actually feels like you are playing levels. Bayo 1 has some cutscene or character intro you have to skip literally every 2 minutes. Cutscene, walk 2 steps, cutscene, beat enemies, cutscenes, walk other 2 steps, cutscene, kill some enemies, cutscene, level is over.


As for the plot. One is terrible and the other is slightly less terrible.
 
Bayonetta 2's over-reliance on Witch Time (the fact that it's no longer gone on Infinite Climax is telling) and the less fun weapons are the main drawbacks for me. I also didn't care for many of the boss fights. People love human-sized bosses but I don't really find fighting an AI who auto-dodges 90% of attacks, pushing you to rely on using the same strategy over and over, to be very fun. And the flying battles just plain suck.
 
I don't really care for the over the top "sexiness" of the Bayonetta games, so Bayo 2 letting you unlock alternate costumes early on during your initial play through is a nice change. (I think you had to beat Bayo 1 to unlock this, if I recall correctly).

Bayo 2 makes some other small improvements but in a lot of ways it feels like a continuation of the first game. Not a whole lot has changed. If you like one of them you'll probably like the other.
 
Where I think Bayonetta 2 really shits the bed is the build up and resolution of the game's climax. Gameplay wise the final boss is a lot better than Bayonetta 1's but it just doesn't have anywhere near the same impact. I feel you just face the final boss too suddenly without proper build and. F
urthermore, the stupid deus ex machina that Loki pulls in order to enable you to defeat the boss really takes away from the fight. I didn't feel like I beat the boss, I just felt like someone did it for me. Your whole fight against him is pretty much useless since you can't even hurt him.
It really takes away the sense of achievement a good boss gives you. Compare that to Vergil in DMC3, Armstrong in MGR:R or G
ehrman
in Bloodborne for example... It's just not very good.
 
Bayo 2 Pros:

-No bullshit QTEs
-More accessible: you're not expected to die 10,000 times on your first try of a level

Bayo 2 Cons:

-Entirely way too easy
-Shorter
-Over-emphasis on Umbran Climax
-Horrible end-boss compared to the first game
-Removal of mini-games and platforming sections made the game's back-to-back-to-back setpiece moments blend together and monotonous.

I did like Bayo 2 a lot still, but I liked Bayo 1 better. It felt more "complete" to me. Longer, mini-games that break up the pace well (though I know there's a lot who disagree with me on that), better told story, WAAAAY better final boss, much much higher skill ceiling providing a much bigger potential for replayability. Bayo 2 was made much more palatable for a wider audience which in a way is better but Bayo 1 remains the more technically demanding and "hardercore" of the two. I guess it just depends on what you want out of the series. If you're in it for the ridiculously over-the-top presentation and visuals then 2 will be better for you, if you're in it for the extremely technical frame-perfect execution you'll be going back to 1 more often.
 
The story doesn't matter to me. What does matter to me is that 2 cut out the QTE's, pseudo platforming, Angel Attack and the world's most bloated Sega hommages and is far better paced and replayable as a result. It's way more vibrant as well.
 
Oyashiro said:
I'm a huge fan of the first game, but so far the second just doesn't seem to be anywhere near as good. I saw that it had gotten a ton of great reviews so I was really happy and excited to see how it fared against the first. I'm only about 6 chapters in, but it just... doesn't seem to have the same charm as the first one.

The first game had funny characters, fun gameplay, excellent music, and a lot of wittiness and sexiness. This one just really seems lacking. The story is exceptionally awful. The gameplay doesn't feel varied. The music hasn't wowed me so far.

Does it get better later on? Am I just judging the game too soon? I want to keep going because the first game is one of my favorite games of all time.
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It actually gets worse lol Definitely an overhyped game. Not terrible, not but nearly as geat as fanatics claim. First was superior in every way except for the hair. Bayonetta has cooler hair in the sequel.
 
Tyrant Rave said:
I can understand preferring the first game as the combat does have some differences. The first game treats Witch Time as training wheels and shows you on higher difficulties that you don't need it. You're a force of nature and you can endlessly aircombo most enemies to death by just doing simple enemy step cancel combos.

In 2, Witch Time is a fundamental part of the combat. You can't really launch certain enemies into long air combos unless time is slowed down or if you're using Umbran Climax. And the game is more designed around the mechanic as a whole.

That being said, I do prefer 2. I think the overall flow allows for more varied approaches. I don't really get not liking one versus the other honestly, the two are both so similar that it's kind of hard to imagine. Even if you prefer 1, 2 is a great game.
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I'd argue witchtime in 2 is a joke. It's shorter, you can't extend it by doing rapid combos, you don't need it to launch enemies, because umbran climax does that for you whenever the bar fills up. You don't even need to do full combos for wicked weaves in 2 because wow, umbran climax does that for you

The combat loop in bayo 1 is filled with a vast, varied amount of actions that are all as viable as each other, tied together by witch time/ effective dodging, which alongside dodge offset gives you that perfect moment to go in, via weave (offense) or witchtime (defensive) and demolish your enemies. These actions also filled your magic, which gave you TAs to finish off challenging or difficult enemies... which you could get weapons from to effectively demolish more enemies... etc All the various mechanics feed into eachother in a cool, engaging way,

bayo 2 to me feels more like a waiting game of "do filler action until umbran gauge fills" -> "unleash umbran and kill everything" repeat. The combat mechanics are nowhere near as engaging, despite having way more stuff you can do there's no real reason to do anything other that stall until umbran because it's your best, easiest, most reliable action. Why would you ever TA in bayo 2? The game has all these "improved mechanics" but they're all useless flavour.

What made the first game so good is how it made almost all it's combat options useful and how it steered you towards them. Whereas Bayo 2 is wait -> press button -> get amazing power up combos!!

What does matter to me is that 2 cut out the QTE's, pseudo platforming, Angel Attack and the world's most bloated Sega hommages and is far better paced and replayable as a result. It's way more vibrant as well.
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except 2 still has insta death QTEs, with one on the first stage even, and it also wow has platforming sections.

why do people keep preaching this cut the QTEs shit like it's the gospel
 
So weird. I played both back to back and for me Bayonetta 2 was better in every way. Probably the best game I played this generation and another proof that quality does not equale to sales.
 
I don't understand how you can call Bayo 1 one of you favorite games ever but not like almost everything about Bayo 2. One suggestion is to give the game a break (a couple of weeks or even a month) and come back to it with a fresh mind. If your six chapters in and still not enjoying the game you'll be stuck in that mindset until the end.
 
OrbitalBeard said:
I get why some prefer the first game, as it was the start of a new franchise and felt incredibly fresh because of that. The world Kamiya and his team created was so over the top and unique and it would be basically impossible for the sequel to recreate that magic. I think it's the same reason why certain people preferred The Wonderful 101 to Bayonetta 2, because it was another fresh, new experience from Kamiya. Those same people are almost guaranteed to prefer Scalebound over Bayonetta 2 as well.
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Well said. The worst problem of the sequel is being very safe and conservative. They worked on trimming the fat instead of creating something new for the sake of being new. Part of that is unavoidable, many things in B1 were totally new and great: torture attacks, summoning demons to kill bosses, Bayonetta ending every fight with a kiss, etc. The sequel has them but of course they can't have the same impact, we expect them to be there. That said, sometimes Platinum played too safe: the minigames are the same, just toned down (thank god!), the final boss is killed in a similar way, even the volleyball joke when you beat the golem returns! If you liked Bayonetta for the novelty factor, the sequel can't have it.

On the other hand, if you liked B1 for its core gameplay, B2 delivers in spades and skips a lot of the Kamiya brand bullshit. It also looks much better than the first (goodbye piss filter!).
 
I liked the last chapter of the first game more but enjoyed pretty much everything else in the second more. Anyone not happy at chapter six probably isn't going to get happy.
 
remz said:
except 2 still has insta death QTEs, with one on the first stage even, and it also wow has platforming sections.
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Does it? Can't remember, but it's been awhile. If so, they are far less prevalent as I felt a stark contrast with the first after playing them back to back.
 
I can understand that you prefer the "characters, story, music, wittiness and sexiness" because these things are all subjective and personal.

But to think that the gameplay was better in the first I don't really understand? Do you miss the tighter witch time? Because other than that and getting rid of the approximate platforming and motorbike then I don't know what you are missing since other than that they seem pretty similar to me.

Also if you have been able to go through the first one then it shouldn't be such a chore to finish the 2nd one imo.
 
Da hell?

Never realized so many people thought Bayo 2 was some kind of backfire or letdown after Bayo 1. Bayo 2 was my GotY for 2014 and dialed everything that was great about the first up another notch.
 
Kagoshima_Luke said:
Da hell?

Never realized so many people thought Bayo 2 was some kind of backfire or letdown after Bayo 1. It was my GotY for 2014 and dialed everything that was great up the first up another notch.
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Well I wasn't let down in it but I was a bit diappointed since the encounters don't seem to be balanced to Bayo's new moves. I think it's more they improved Bayo so much and not the enemies which in the first game push you into being better so everything but the Masked Lumen fights didn't really satisfy me as much so a lot of the game rung hollow for me despite me still enjoying it. I don't recall this games Gracious and Glorious since I didn't have much trouble with regular enemies.
 
I enjoyed Bayonetta 1, but at some point I gave up. So when Bayonetta 2 came out I wasn´t quite sure if I was going to like it. But it turned out to be amazing. I think the gameplay in part 1 was great, but in part 2 it was pure perfection.
 
I think people like 2 better because it's easier and it doesn't demand anything from the player in combat, other than using umbran to do well.
 
I've been considering this a fair bit recently, replayed both games and I've settled on Bayo 1 being the better game. 2 is still great and it does improve on the original in many areas, but it takes a step back in others.

I find the enemies much more fun to fight in the first game. The same enemies seem almost lethargic even on the hardest difficulty by comparison in the sequel.

Another thing which contributes to how fun the combat is are the weapons, and Bayo 1 wins hands down here. The fire/ice spray, big hammer, scythe, chainsaws, bow etc... None of these new weapons feel particularly satisfying to use. Give me the shotguns, Durga claws, Killgore, Odette and gunchucks any day.

Underwater sections. These are shit in practically every game in existence, and there's no exeption here. Even the first fight in the first mission is a slow, sluggish underwater encounter. I don't understand why someone thought these sections would be a good idea.

Flying sections. These look nice but again, they're just sections where your movement and movesets are limited and less fun.

Boss fights. With the exceptions of the Lumen/Balder fights and Gomorrah, nothing was particularly memorable. Particularly Aesir/Loptr, who just felt like a much weaker version of Balder from Bayo 1.

Demon enemies. I'm not really sure what it is with these guys, but on the whole I just didn't enjoy fighting them as much as the angel mobs. I dunno if it's because visually, they're kind of messy looking and it's tricky to read their attacks? I'm not really a fan of their aesthetics anyhow. They just don't really gel with all of the demon designs that were already knocking around.

Loki. Fuck him. Possibly the single most irritating character in video game history.

Having said all that, Bayonetta 2 is an amazing game. It's just that Bayonetta 1 is an amazing game.
 
I preferred Bayonetta 2 to the first. If anything I wished it wasn't as easy as the first. I loved the fact Bayo had a devil trigger but it felt like the game was balanced around that which just made it easier. And the final boss is also pretty terrible in comparison to the first game's final boss.

Still the main reason I got a WiiU and very happy with it.
 
I liked 2 the most, even within their respective timeframes, except for the lame final boss. It looks better, plays better and the story actually makes sense (and it makes the first game's story more coherent, even).
 
hatchx said:
Bayo2's gameplay and style is pretty similar to Bayo1, you'd have to have pretty fickle tastes or outrageous expectations to love one and dislike the other.
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I'm kind of in line with this.

It is okay to like the first one more than the second, but I don't think some of your complaints about the second one are fair, to be honest. The variety, for example, is there.. Are you unlocking new weapons? There are a ton of good weapons to choose from and there is a lot of variety on just switching weapons around and experimenting with different combos. Variety is also there when we consider the enemies you fight. They are always changing things up and introducing new enemies (I only played it in the 3rd climax difficulty, so if that changes on the other settings I wouldn't know), which are always fun to play against. The game play is as good as always, and music follows the same line of the first, so I don't understand why you enjoy it on the first one but not here (battle theme song apart, I think the score in Bayonetta 2 is even better than that on the first one).

I guess it is okay to like Bayonetta as a character more in the first game than in the second. I personally wasn't feeling some of the cut-scenes, I need more of the sassy, provocative Bayonetta, and I think we have more of that on the first entry of the series, but the game itself was marvellous from start to finish.

I like it a lot, and personally it made it hard for me to go back to Bayonetta without noticing some of the annoying things they fixed on the second game. I'd say keep playing it, there are some amazing chapters by the end, and some great challenges.
 
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