Support NeoGAF

[HK-47]

Say that whenever the west tops Demon's Souls and Siren: New Translation.

Geez Amnesia makes Siren look silly. Should have just stuck with Demon's Souls.

 

[HK-47]

Outside of his comments about being Ryoma, his points are very valid..

Global games are better for companies.. if you can have decent to good sales anywhere on the planet that is a good thing...

I love that a Japanese dev is a questioning how things are done and speaks his mind about it.

So why dont we grill Western devs for just being able to appeal to the West?

 

[brandonh83]

I'm not disagreeing with you, including ME2 which you agree is a tad overrated, I do think it's a decent game.

Well, I'm not sure that I would call it overrated, I just had a couple of nitpicks about the game that keeps it held back as being a GOTY candidate for me. As it stands, Bayonetta is probably my pick at the moment, but with Castlevania, Vanquish, etc. coming soon, that may well change.

 

[HK-47]

The idea of D&D as anything approaching a good or deep combat system is just straight-up never-actually-thought-about-this-for-half-a-second crazy. That aside, while there is indeed a vanishingly small number of western RPGs that do manage to come up with good combat rules, once you skim off the cream from the Dragon Quest-alikes and the Nippon Ichi autism simulators, you've got a larger, much more diverse, and generally higher quality pool of RPG combat systems with the Japanese games.

Temple of Elemental Evil and Icewind Dale say yes D&D can make good combat.

 

[Blackace]

So why dont we grill Western devs for just being able to appeal to the West?

Because they appeal to everywhere else but Japan.

Western games sell well in China, and Korea...

Also Japan does grill western devs for not being Japanese enough... It isn't like it is a western dev saying this it is Japanese dev looking at their own industry. But OH NOES he is going insane!!!

 

[Rhazer Fusion]

I really do not understand the entire Western games are immensely better than Japanese games mentality that keeps getting regurgitated on a regular basis. Just because the games are selling better in the West doesn't necessarily mean they are quality or vastly superior to their Japanese competition. Is Gears of War is clearly beyond Vanquish for example? Are you telling me Bayonetta doesn't compare to God of War? If Western games were so idolized and great, can developers answer why Japan doesn't buy most of them?

 

[george_us]

Please don't fuck with Lost Planet 2.

I haven't put that much time into a shooter in a long, long time.

 

[Blackace]

I really do not understand the entire Western games are immensely better than Japanese games mentality that keeps getting regurgitated on a regular basis. Just because the games are selling better in the West doesn't necessarily mean they are quality or vastly superior to their Japanese competition. Is Gears of War is clearly beyond Vanquish for example? Are you telling me Bayonetta doesn't compare to God of War? If Western games were so idolized and great, can developers answer why Japan doesn't buy most of them?

First of all, up until now a lot of games didn't get any face time. Western games were in the corner of the stores while Japanese games took front row.. it is the same reason why some great Japanese games don't sell in the west.. nobody knows about them.

Gears is clearly better than Vanquish.. But that doesn't make Western games better than Japanese games by default.

 

[thetrin]

Gears is clearly better than Vanquish

whooooa there!

 

[Fimbulvetr]

whooooa there!

Yeah I'd rather wait for Vanquish to actually exist within stores before I can judge it. :lol

 

[Retro_]

Vanquish defense force assemble

I'll form the head

 

[thetrin]

Yeah I'd rather wait for Vanquish to actually exist within stores before I can judge it. :lol

Such is my point. Saying Vanquish is infinitely better than Gears is equally silly.

 

[Coxswain]

Temple of Elemental Evil and Icewind Dale say yes D&D can make good combat.

The issues that D&D rules have are way too fundamental for either of those games to overcome. With a good enough design team you might be able to make something using it that manages to just barely squeak over the bar of 'fun', but that doesn't make bad mechanics any less bad so much as make a game that's marginally enjoyable despite the underlying mechanics. You can polish a turd until you can see your reflection in it, but that's no excuse for not using a mirror.

 

[HK-47]

The issues that D&D rules have are way too fundamental for either of those games to overcome. With a good enough design team you might be able to make something using it that manages to just barely squeak over the bar of 'fun', but that doesn't make bad mechanics any less bad so much as make a game that's marginally enjoyable despite the underlying mechanics. You can polish a turd until you can see your reflection in it, but that's no excuse for not using a mirror.

Except they are both fine combat games, regardless.

 

[Grampa Simpson]

God of War isn't bad

God of War isn't that good either. It did help bring beat-em-ups back into vogue though. I'll give it that. And an A+++ on presentation.

 

[Coxswain]

Except they are both fine combat games, regardless.

Not really. The simple act of taking a game numerically simple enough to be kept track of by tabletop and attaching it to a random dice roll calibrated such that the chance of success for any given action is meant to be 50-50 against an even challenge means that so much weight is given to the random number generator that a player can make the exact same inputs in the exact same situation and get wildly different results each time with no particular regularity, effectively removing the point of having a player in the first place. It's compounded by an early game where a lot of characters can be taken down in one move through no fault of the player, and a mid-to-late game that skews both ways where both winning and losing rests pretty much entirely on who makes their saving throw, with comparatively little weight given to how well the game is played. When it's not 50-50, through specialization or luck, things get worse, because ability effects are designed with unreliability in mind and teeter precariously back and forth between being overwhelming and useless. Add on to that some astonishingly poor intra and inter-class balance and oodles of nonsensical legacy mechanics carried over increasingly awkwardly from version to version for no good reason besides that they were present in tabletop games in the 70s and 80s, and yeah that's basically a shit sandwich with all the fixin's.
I don't know what games you're comparing it to, but neither game would make my top quintile for RPG combat, even if I was left entirely to pick through the scraps of WRPGs.

 

[jman2050]

Not really. The simple act of taking a game numerically simple enough to be kept track of by tabletop and attaching it to a random dice roll calibrated such that the chance of success for any given action is meant to be 50-50 against an even challenge means that so much weight is given to the random number generator that a player can make the exact same inputs in the exact same situation and get wildly different results each time with no particular regularity, effectively removing the point of having a player in the first place. It's compounded by an early game where a lot of characters can be taken down in one move through no fault of the player, and a mid-to-late game that skews both ways where both winning and losing rests pretty much entirely on who makes their saving throw, with comparatively little weight given to how well the game is played. When it's not 50-50, through specialization or luck, things get worse, because ability effects are designed with unreliability in mind and teeter precariously back and forth between being overwhelming and useless. Add on to that some astonishingly poor intra and inter-class balance and oodles of nonsensical legacy mechanics carried over increasingly awkwardly from version to version for no good reason besides that they were present in tabletop games in the 70s and 80s, and yeah that's basically a shit sandwich with all the fixin's.
I don't know what games you're comparing it to, but neither game would make my top quintile for RPG combat, even if I was left entirely to pick through the scraps of WRPGs.

Are you saying you have a problem with random chance in a game system? Or is it simply that D&D systems lean way too far into the random side?

 

[Coxswain]

Are you saying you have a problem with random chance in a game system? Or is it simply that D&D systems lean way too far into the random side?

Both, although I recognize that the former, in moderation, is probably a necessary evil that we won't be getting entirely rid of any time soon; the latter, though, that shit (and I single out D&D here because it's most prolific, but really mostly anything derived from or inspired by tabletop rules) makes those games unplayable.

 

[luxarific]

If Case Zero is any indication, DR2 will probably sell well. And if it doesnt , it probably wont be from being a bad game.

Seconding this. Case Zero was fantastic. Best demo I've played in years and a great ad for the full game. And it's certainly selling pretty well (500K copies by the middle of Sept.).

 

[Blackace]

The issues that D&D rules have are way too fundamental for either of those games to overcome. With a good enough design team you might be able to make something using it that manages to just barely squeak over the bar of 'fun', but that doesn't make bad mechanics any less bad so much as make a game that's marginally enjoyable despite the underlying mechanics. You can polish a turd until you can see your reflection in it, but that's no excuse for not using a mirror.

expect the post you posted later that states "how the tabletop rules work" is so off based that it isn't even funny.

I tend to say things like "I don't like JRPGs because I don't like the writing" or whatever, but personally I have so much fun with WRPGs and never have a felt the combat system to be broken nor clunky... nor overly random. So basically your opinion presented as fact is wrong.

 

[Segata Sanshiro]

Outside of his comments about being Ryoma, his points are very valid..

What about the contradiction between his Shadow of Rome comments and the Resident Evil comments?

Do you really think it's valid that all it takes to sell in the west is to have an American main character who speaks English? I mean, if so, there we go, easy solution to a difficult problem.

 

[Blackace]

What about the contradiction between his Shadow of Rome comments and the Resident Evil comments?

Do you really think it's valid that all it takes to sell in the west is to have an American main character who speaks English? I mean, if so, there we go, easy solution to a difficult problem.

Of course it isn't that simple, but it helps.

It is time for Japan game companies to think more globally...

Does that mean DQXIIIIIIAHHETTAII won't get made? no..

does that mean bald space marines will be in it? I hope not

But you can see it in the move that SE have made in purchasing EDIOS... now Kane and Lynch gets front billing in Yodobashi, Deus Ex gets 5 pages in famitsu.. and they have a chance to sell well globally outside of their key franchises....

 

[Segata Sanshiro]

Of course it isn't that simple, but it helps.

It is time for Japan game companies to think more globally...

Does that mean DQXIIIIIIAHHETTAII won't get made? no..

does that mean bald space marines will be in it? I hope not

But you can see it in the move that SE have made in purchasing EDIOS... now Kane and Lynch gets front billing in Yodobashi, Deus Ex gets 5 pages in famitsu.. and they have a chance to sell well globally outside of their key franchises....

Even though you didn't say so, I'm going to assume you're with me on the idea that Resident Evil sold in the west for more reasons (and more important reasons) than simply having an American main character. It's a ridiculously simple assessment and it shows that Inafune has no understanding at all of what Western gamers look for and appreciate in a game.

Don't get me wrong, I think there's a problem and it needs to be addressed, but I think Keiji Inafune has absolutely no idea how to even go about fixing it and his comments show that. He has a blind love for another culture and we all know how that can affect someone's perception of reality.

 

[Blackace]

Even though you didn't say so, I'm going to assume you're with me on the idea that Resident Evil sold in the west for more reasons (and more important reasons) than simply having an American main character. It's a ridiculously simple assessment and it shows that Inafune has no understanding at all of what Western gamers look for and appreciate in a game.

Don't get me wrong, I think there's a problem and it needs to be addressed, but I think Keiji Inafune has absolutely no idea how to even go about fixing it and his comments show that. He has a blind love for another culture and we all know how that can affect someone's perception of reality.

The proof is in this thread.

I think he made plenty of good points even through his muddled points.

I wish some of my friends from the industry here would speak up about how tech is handled in Japan.. a lot of the stories told are shocking..

 

[Clemsontigers35]

Let's not degrade into an East vs. West debate, or a God of War vs. DMC debate. Both cultures have their good and bad points. The problem is 127 million vs 380 million. The English speaking population dwarfs the Japanese population. The western culture has more game buyers, simple as that.

 

[Segata Sanshiro]

The proof is in this thread.

I think he made plenty of good points even through his muddled points.

I wish some of my friends from the industry here would speak up about how tech is handled in Japan.. a lot of the stories told are shocking..

I give him points for standing up and saying something. But literally everything that followed standing up has been detrimental to actually addressing the problem.

When you stand up against a difficult problem that is extremely resistant to change, it is absolutely critical to choose your words, arguments, and actions carefully. This is because the people who are comfortable with the status quo are going to be scrutinizing you very carefully to find flaws with your ideas so that they can dismiss you and go right back to being comfortable.

Inafune has not chosen his words, arguments, or actions carefully. He looks like a complete fool, which makes his cause look foolish. If he had nothing better to say, he shouldn't have said anything except "I don't know, but there's a difference and I mean to find it" instead of throwing extremely poorly-thought out comments like that Resident Evil one. If his idea of making a quite "well-liked in the West" franchise more popular in the West is to just hand it over to a C-grade developer whose games are not popular in the West, then he shouldn't have done anything at all.

He's going to fail because of his lack of understanding and care, and the people comfortable with the status quo are going to use him as a poster boy for why nobody ever needs to change.

Or to sum it up with an old proverb: if you're not going to do it right, don't do it at all.

 

[Voyevoda007]

How does this guy not get fired?.

 

[ShockingAlberto]

How does this guy not get fired?.

He is Capcom's main tentpole at the moment.

He is betting his entire career on this "We have to westernize" gambit. If it fails, he will be pushed in to a corner with Mega Man Anniversary Collection GBA.

 

[jman2050]

Both, although I recognize that the former, in moderation, is probably a necessary evil that we won't be getting entirely rid of any time soon;

Eh, I consider it a vital part of most game systems, simply because it's very very difficult to create a good deterministic game system that doesn't have all players playing under the exact same starting conditions. The only real way outside randomness to alleviate that is introduce a twitch/execution barrier (see: any fighting game, any physical sport) and that's not feasible for all applications. And there's certainly nothing wrong with randomness if it maintains a good risk/reward balance, like in Pokemon for instance.

 

[Kittonwy]

How does this guy not get fired?.

They got rid of Mikami and Kamiya, there's nobody left.

 

[Rhazer Fusion]

First of all, up until now a lot of games didn't get any face time. Western games were in the corner of the stores while Japanese games took front row.. it is the same reason why some great Japanese games don't sell in the west.. nobody knows about them.

Gears is clearly better than Vanquish.. But that doesn't make Western games better than Japanese games by default.

Not from what I've played. Vanquished felt more polished, fluid and stylish imo and I am a big Gears of War fan. We will see with Gears of War 3 though.

 

[Blackace]

Not from what I've played. Vanquished felt more polished, fluid and stylish imo and I am a big Gears of War fan. We will see with Gears of War 3 though.

From the demo I thought vanquished was a piece of poo.... But to each it's own.

 

[Blackace]

How does this guy not get fired?.

Fire somebody for saying we need to make better games and sell more worldwide... Pfft

 

[GillianSeed79]

My two cents is instead of trying to appeal to a western audience why don't they simply focus on trying to make a good game first? I don't care if a game is western or eastern as long as it's good. Whenever I hear a Japanese developer talking about trying to appeal to a western audience I roll my eyes because 9 times out of 10 they think it means shoehorning a poorly designed “western” character into an otherwise eastern game or they try their hand at a popular western genre and fail horribly. You never see BioWare for example throw a random Moe character into their games in a sad attempt to appeal to Japanese gamers. You never see Epic waste their time trying to make the next Dragon Quest. Japanese developers should do what they do best and not worry if Timmy in Sandusky, Ohio or Billy in Dallas, Texas thinks Japanese game X isn't cool because it doesn't have a lot of guns and steroid infused space marines. If it means focusing on handhelds so be it. I mean do they really want to emulate the western blockbuster mentality that is all risk and rarely a reward. I don't even like handhelds but god knows making games for them is safer bet than throwing 60 million at a game doomed to poor sales from the start.

 

[Fimbulvetr]

Fire somebody for saying we need to make better games and sell more worldwide... Pfft

Better games like Bionic Commando right?

 

[infinityBCRT]

Its not just scores but sales and mass market appeal that is the issue with Japanese gaming. Nintendo can continually do it with their first party titles, but how many third party Japanese titles can sell 6+ million copies?

The last Japanese megahit (outside of Nintendo) that I can think of is Metal Gear Solid 2. Theres the Final Fantasys too I guess. Would be interesting to see the numbers on that series.

 

[Segata Sanshiro]

Its not just scores but sales and mass market appeal that is the issue with Japanese gaming. Nintendo can continually do it with their first party titles, but how many third party Japanese titles can sell 6+ million copies?

The last Japanese megahit (outside of Nintendo) that I can think of is Metal Gear Solid 2. Theres the Final Fantasys too I guess. Would be interesting to see the numbers on that series.

Six million plus is a pretty exclusive club for the whole world, though, not just Japan.

 

[Fimbulvetr]

Its not just scores but sales and mass market appeal that is the issue with Japanese gaming. Nintendo can continually do it with their first party titles, but how many third party Japanese titles can sell 6+ million copies?

The last Japanese megahit (outside of Nintendo) that I can think of is Metal Gear Solid 2. Theres the Final Fantasys too I guess. Would be interesting to see the numbers on that series.

FF XIII is on 5.5 mill WW and that game was disappointing as fuck, so this pretty clearly has jack all to do with scores and quality and everything to do with some combination of appeal and hype.

You can argue which one pushes more sales(between appeal and hype). I think it's the latter.

 

[tino]

FF XIII is on 5.5 mill WW and that game was disappointing as fuck, so this pretty clearly has jack all to do with scores and quality and everything to do with some combination of appeal and hype.

You can argue which one pushes more sales(between appeal and hype). I think it's the latter.

Agree. Didn't DMC2 outsold 1 and 3?

I m really curious to see how the sells number with turn out for CoD 2011 and DmC, since these titles will be largely hated by the "core" fans.

 

[Relaxed Muscle]

Fire somebody for saying we need to make better games and sell more worldwide... Pfft

Maybe for being behind bombs like Lost PLanet 2, Bionic Commando and Dark Void?

 

[wolfmat]

Maybe for being behind bombs like Lost PLanet 2, Bionic Commando and Dark Void?

Oh, so the really smart plan is to fire people until magically, the super-selling-games makers team appears in your office? Doesn't really sound too great, to be honest.

 

[Segata Sanshiro]

Yeah, you don't fire guys like that. You just stick them in an office in the basement and don't let them touch the money pile anymore. Right, Yu Suzuki? Haha, don't worry, you don't have to answer, nobody's listening anyway.

 

[Fimbulvetr]

Oh, so the really smart plan is to fire people until magically, the super-selling-games makers team appears in your office? Doesn't really sound too great, to be honest.

No, they keep his focus on making games and reduce his ability to make decisions that cost them millions of dollars all the while trying to find new talent; instead of giving millions of dollars to known terrible C-grade devs.

 

[Freeza Under The Shower]

Yeah, you don't fire guys like that. You just stick them in an office in the basement and don't let them touch the money pile anymore. Right, Yu Suzuki? Haha, don't worry, you don't have to answer, nobody's listening anyway.

right.

 

[Fimbulvetr]

right.

I hope he waits for Platinum's next deal with Sega to be complete before he burns down the building.

 

[Haunted]

Yeah, you don't fire guys like that. You just stick them in an office in the basement and don't let them touch the money pile anymore. Right, Yu Suzuki? Haha, don't worry, you don't have to answer, nobody's listening anyway.

motherfuckers

 

[Vinci]

Its not just scores but sales and mass market appeal that is the issue with Japanese gaming. Nintendo can continually do it with their first party titles, but how many third party Japanese titles can sell 6+ million copies?

Holy shit, we've got high standards up in this thread.

 

[Pureauthor]

How many titles period can sniff 6 million sales?

 

[LosDaddie]

Japanese games appeal less & less to me with every passing year. So I agree with Inafune to an extent.

 

[Sadist]

Holy shit, we've got high standards up in this thread.

Kotaku wrote an article for you!