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[Bo_Hazem]

According to @davidjaffe, Bend Studio have moved from Unreal Engine to Guerrilla's Decima engine.

He says sources of his at Sony told him Days Gone 2 began development and was being made using Decima, not UE4. Now they'e using it to make a new IP open world game.

However, Sony's smallest team Pixelopus do seem to be working a new game using UE5.

Decima is becoming Sony's shared engine. It helps it getting evolved faster, waiting for it to fully utilize all the perks of PS5.

 

[Lysandros]

Notable enough to bring PS5's performance in line with XSX in many titles and sometimes even better.

I agree on it being an important contributor to PS5's overall performance but it's certainly not the only one, PS5 doesn't lack advantages in GPU metrics and architecture. One lesser known/mentioned example is ~20% faster ASYNC shader/compute scheduling thanks to Command Processor+ACEs+HWS blocks running at higher frequency, these units are basically there to improve CU saturation/efficiency.

 

[Werewolfgrandma]

Nice try but you haven't evne tried to coming with facts yourself. Like i said...run the fucking demo or shut up. And if you want to know my specs:

Ryzen 3700X
32GB ram @3600mhz
RTX 2080 super
NVMe drives and Optane drive

See my last added screenshot with the pop-in. That's why i think that the PS5 demo on PC will not run smooth in every section of the demo. Clearly, the PC sata SSD's and NVMe's are not really utilize it atm, so we will see more pop-in in taxing scenes.

Hey snake this might clear things up a bit for you. I have a very similar spec PC as you, except only 16gb Ram and the editor is much heavier for me than the compiled exe. The editor plus play mode actually will give a memory error after a minute, and just the editor is pretty chunky. The stand alone exe runs fine 1440p 30-40 fps.

 

[Lethal01]

If Forbidden West is anything to go on Decima is more than a match for Unreal 5.

Nah, Graphically UE5 is clearly far ahead, You're thinking more about the art than the tech. Just because you don't like a bunch of rocks doesn't mean it's not 10x more graphically impressive than the Forbidden west footage. That said I think Decima could get there in a few year.

When i play the gameplay part, the drops are visible. You do not have to run the Valley demo inside the editor since you can launch it without. And well, if you want to know you do not have to package it and compile it's since it's already a separate demo. Just right click on the Valley demo and "launch game".

It's unlikely that there is anything in play mode that would cause trouble for a pc that can run the demo in editor mode. There can be cases where play mode is extremely taxing but it's unlikely that the extra physics systems and rigging would pose a substanstial issue.

Also, the project tends to run better in editor mode the more you play it since it's doing "stuff" in the back ground. The first time you play it there may be pop in and that is likely to be gone the next time. These issues would not be present when you compile it, It would run better when compiled to.

So yeah, there's really no doubt that the guy's PC would run the demo just fine.

my gosh....some ppl will ever learn

What's the issue here? We know that the PS5 Gpu handles some things better than the XBSX. Goes both ways and really isn't a big deal.

 

[MasterCornholio]

Have we been lied to by Cerny and Tim Sweeney?

 

[Kazekage1981]

The Sega Dreamcast, Playstation 1, Sega Saturn never had HDD or SSD. The game was loaded from the GD/CD Disk directly to its RAM. Loading times were long but not bad. The limiting factor was typical things that limit graphics performance: CPU/GPU, Ram etc.

Then came HDD, and holy shit, not only do you have to wait for the game to load but also wait for it to be installed to the HDD which made it even worse.

I think the real bottle neck are the optical drives as a storage medium. Ultra Blu Ray disks are cheap to manufacture with decent space for game data but super slow to read and load and i personally think its obsolete now.

You need a storage medium that is:
a) cheap or reasonable cost to manufacture
b) Has close to unlimited storage space
c) Blazing fast read/write speeds
d) Flushes data directly to RAM without the need of an intermediary (SSD, HDD)

The closest thing I can think of are SD and MicroSD Cards. Right now it is at Standards 8.0 with about to 4GB/sec speeds with 128 TERAbytes of storage, but I am sure with 9.0 it will be at least doubled in speed.

I am not a tech person, just trying to use common sense.

I just dont understand how the PS5 SSD I/O and XBOX Series X|S&PC SSD I/O thing is new and revolutionary concept to 'flush' the RAM with data, when RAM was 'flushed' with data to begin with without the need for HDD and SSDs

 

[Black_Stride]

Do I need to point out that Sony had early access to Unreal 5 and already has games in development that will likely use it like the new IP from Bend?

MS and Sony obviously both had early access to the engine, they are platfom holders their fdirst party studios would have had to have early access.
The Coalition are magicians with the engine, some of the things they make get injected into main fork.

If Forbidden West is anything to go on Decima is more than a match for Unreal 5.

Decima has a Nanite analog?
How are you gauging it as being "more than a match".
I know very little about the Decima engine so maybe you can enlighten me.

Nanite is an absolute revolution, the geometry it can handle is something beyond.
When they zoomed in on the portal at the end of the demo and you see that its made up of the super detailed wall ornaments from early.
My mind was blown.

But yeah if youve got any documentation or something i could read up on Decima as to why you think its "more than a match" for Unreal Engine 5, that would be swell.

 

[MasterCornholio]

MS and Sony obviously both had early access to the engine, they are platfom holders their fdirst party studios would have had to have early access.
The Coalition are magicians with the engine, some of the things they make get injected into main fork.

Decima has a Nanite analog?
How are you gauging it as being "more than a match".
I know very little about the Decima engine so maybe you can enlighten me.

Nanite is an absolute revolution, the geometry it can handle is something beyond.
When they zoomed in on the portal at the end of the demo and you see that its made up of the super detailed wall ornaments from early.
My mind was blown.

But yeah if youve got any documentation or something i could read up on Decima as to why you think its "more than a match" for Unreal Engine 5, that would be swell.

Well I'm just happy games are being made with both on the PS5 and you can't really say they are bad engines. Curious as to how they will update the Decima engine.

 

[Black_Stride]

Well I'm just happy games are being made with both on the PS5 and you can't really say they are bad engines. Curious as to how they will update the Decima engine.

Not saying one is bad.
But I dont have the knowledge to say Decima is "more than a match" for Unreal Engine 5.
Considering we havent even seen 5.0 yet.

 

[MasterCornholio]

Not saying one is bad.
But I dont have the knowledge to say Decima is "more than a match" for Unreal Engine 5.
Considering we havent even seen 5.0 yet.

I can understand that. HFW might be limited by the PS4. I'm assuming once we start getting Decima games exclusive to the PS5 things can change.

I'm confident that studios using Decima can achieve some pretty fantastic results on the system. Given the caliber of some of Sonys studios we should see that soon.

 

[staticshock]

Not that it detracts from this being a huge step up for PC and will be the baseline for UE5, but as it is a shared project with Microsoft, both the DirectStorage XVA and RTX IO are the same solution, and are still only a 20x reduction in latency over HDD - as stated in the XVA reveal info - not the 100x latency reduction of the IO complex solution

I said this? What you don't understand is direct storage still will use CPU cores to process the compressed data.

Did you not listening to what I said earlier about where we are headed? Direct storage in use with Nvidia and amd's API still will be based on software, and doesn't have 6 priority lanes on top of dedicated chips that literally handle data.

Pc still will use CPU/GPU cores to do the same thing.

Why do you think we are headed to chiplet? Do we can have a secondary chip with SRAM on the same dye as CPU. That's still years out.

Yea I'm actually intrigued. I'm in the beta program for windows I wonder if this is the modular windows approach I heard about?


To your first part, you don't think Sony with a GPU similar to 5700xt+ in GPU computation didn't test the results of using CPU/GPU?

When I seriously talk to developers who literally have the ps5 and develop on pc. They are literally telling telling me the custom solution has a lot of benefits that until we see chiplet on both cpu/GPU that pc won't be as effecient.

It's going to get maybe close, but then again pc doesn't have 6 priority lanes. So brute forcing it with the changes in API for direct storage will be dependent on SSD speed. And in the world of development you don't design around something that still isn't common. You will see faster load times even if you have a sata SSD, will see benefits of a high end NVME. But it's still not something developers are yet designing around a specific standard yet. As in a game bring built around NVME being used as a virtual memory pool.

Maybe Microsoft shows this off in June?

Until I see pc doing what miles Morales does in the entire world being loaded. Or ratchet going from world to world I still think outside of load times it's still not going to be at the same level.

Using your gpu,CPU through software is not as effecient.

So I guess we wait. But until then Sony's design is going to be the standard for a while.

Huh? The CPU doesn't touch anything that isn't destined for the CPU (like audio, etc).
You are going from 1.5-3x improvement when you go from HDD to NVME SSD to +40x faster and you don't think that's enough or groundbreaking?

 

[iHaunter]

It will run better on PC than on PS5.

On a $3k PC sure. Be my guest.

Also you will NEVER have the same I/O bandwidth the PS5 has on PC.

 

[GuinGuin]

MS and Sony obviously both had early access to the engine, they are platfom holders their fdirst party studios would have had to have early access.
The Coalition are magicians with the engine, some of the things they make get injected into main fork.

Decima has a Nanite analog?
How are you gauging it as being "more than a match".
I know very little about the Decima engine so maybe you can enlighten me.

Nanite is an absolute revolution, the geometry it can handle is something beyond.
When they zoomed in on the portal at the end of the demo and you see that its made up of the super detailed wall ornaments from early.
My mind was blown.

But yeah if youve got any documentation or something i could read up on Decima as to why you think its "more than a match" for Unreal Engine 5, that would be swell.

Proof is in the pudding. The Forbidden West gameplay is far more impressive than the unreal demo.

 

[staticshock]

Yes. And it was not just walking and flying, moving mechanics, physics, sound, destruction...i don't know what you have seen? Everything in the background also matters.



No it's not....see my recorded video in UE5 editor:

Did you even watched my video? Their complete 15 min video is in editor and not play mode (see icons on the top right). My video is showing both editor (beginning) and play mode.

You are still trying to make a point that i already made several times in this thread. IT's NOT RESOURCE HEAVY IN EDITOR (SEE FPS COUNT).

So then again, what i was saying is true...in editor is not resource heavy. That's something you guys trying to push constantly. Epic showed the same thing, in editor so there is no way you can compare that with the PS5 demo that was completely running on different hardware.

So far as i know, they haven't shown the demo playable on the pc (not in public), just the whole scene in editor.

My point is very clear!

Well i showed what my point was. Editor mode is not heavy, gameplay is shows how every feature runs at the same time.

Just posted my video, see my post above:

- Editor mode (same as the EPIC video): Not resource heavy, higher framerate and i can fly fast if i want, change object, make them larger etc.

- Play mode: Well you see how the fps is much lower and dips in heavy scenes.

Dude they are BOTH THE EDITOR.

What makes the editor so heavy is because you are accessing all the source assets, source textures source materials, source shaders, uncompressed etc.
This allows you to be able to manipulate things, change colors, materials, renders. This is why you need 32-64 GB memory.

When you compile/package the project, you have none of the source assets, everything you have is compressed and baked out and can't be changed. So you don't have uncompressed source assets and shaders hanging in memory just in case you need to edit it. That's why the demo is 100 GB but the compile version is ~25GB.

In your video you spent the entire time speed dashing into the abys of no where. That's not a direct comparison.
Have you ever watched a DF comparison video? Or any graphics comparison video at all? My goodness.

1) All you had to do was hit the button so she gets up.
2) Drop your controller and don't move. That way you have like for like comparison and identical pixels.
3) Write down the FPS you see.
4) Press F8 to go back to free cam editor mode. (You can use F8 to swap back and forth between game mode and edit mode)
5) Write down the FPS you see.

You find out that its completely identical. When you actually came close to the campfire where the most density of assets are, the FPS in free cam (simulate) mode was identical with play mode.

Then you went to the dark side, a completely different level and location and you are comparing the performance there with your free cam seizure thing you did? Are you serious?

Finally you are only rendering about 70% because the World Outlier browser is taking up a huge part of the screen. Making any future full screen compiled comparison null and void.

 

[MonarchJT]

Proof is in the pudding. The Forbidden West gameplay is far more impressive than the unreal demo.

ahahah ah now is this the new fanboy spin?)
speechless

 

[MasterCornholio]

ahahah ah now is this the new fanboy spin?)

Well there's a difference between gameplay and a tech demo.

With that said the Unreal Demo does look better but I don't know if we will see games look that good anytime soon. At least with HFW we are getting it soon.

 

[MonarchJT]

Well there's a difference between gameplay and a tech demo.

With that said the Unreal Demo does look better but I don't know if we will see games look that good anytime soon. At least with HFW we are getting it soon.

well you know that is just a demo and knowing (today) that the geometry of all that goodness took up only 6 GB gives me hope. But to say that Horizon looks better than the UE5 demo is simply nonsense ... from all points of view. Notwithstanding that Horizon, especially considering the fact that it is a crossgen game, is truly amazing.

 

[PaintTinJr]

According to this logic, the PS5 should go toe to toe with an RTX 3080. I'll believe it when I see it

It will probably do better than that at nanite - lumen might be different we'll see in the next video - because the info by Brian and co in the video gave really illustrates why the old multi stage hw pipeline is via for less work in games, and why even 36 CUs might only really be there for traditional graphics/cross-gen that don't exploit nanite or something better - and 128 ROPs would have been even better in the consoles.

With the PS5 low latency, cache scrubbers and the to the metal nature of the console's graphics access - even if the XsX/Xss get it indirectly - we should see amazing nanite results on all the consoles, and probably see significant changes in PC graphics drivers to remove inefficiencies. The latency on material change pass should see big gains for the to-the-metal access where api calls become a drain on performance again - going by the info I took from the video.

 

[MonarchJT]

It will probably do better than that at nanite - lumen might be different we'll see in the next video - because the info by Brian and co in the video gave really illustrates why the old multi stage hw pipeline is via for less work in games, and why even 36 CUs might only really be there for traditional graphics/cross-gen that don't exploit nanite or something better - and 128 ROPs would have been even better in the consoles.

With the PS5 low latency, cache scrubbers and the to the metal nature of the console's graphics access - even if the XsX/Xss get it indirectly - we should see amazing nanite results on all the consoles, and probably see significant changes in PC graphics drivers to remove inefficiencies. The latency on material change pass should see big gains for the to-the-metal access where api calls become a drain on performance again - going by the info I took from the video.

the PS5 will never do better than a 3080 ...stop it here already before another fud start

 

[MasterCornholio]

well you know that is just a demo and knowing (today) that the geometry of all that goodness took up only 6 GB gives me hope. But to say that Horizon looks better than the UE5 demo is simply nonsense ... from all points of view. Notwithstanding that Horizon, especially considering the fact that it is a crossgen game, is truly amazing.

Doesn't mean that games can't take up more memory in the future. And a really good I/O can help when that happens.

 

[GuinGuin]

ahahah ah now is this the new fanboy spin?)
speechless

It has just as much detail but everything moves and is full of life unlike the static unreal demo and obviously the character models are ten times better.

 

[Lethal01]

But to say that Horizon looks better than the UE5 demo is simply nonsense ... from all points of view. Notwithstanding that Horizon, especially considering the fact that it is a crossgen game, is truly amazing.

It's really not, people could simply think the environments in Horizon was more interesting and well designed.

But I agree Unreal is far better graphically.

the PS5 will never do better than a 3080 ...stop it here already before another fud start

When you take the entire game into account no. When you are looking at specific parts of the pipeline of course there will be moments when the PS5 does specific operations better.

 

[staticshock]

I might be mistaken, but his editor was showing 4096px in the top right menu for something, so I'd presume that was for textures, as virtual shadow maps are 16K according to the video. So if the textures were 4 times the size( and storage) for the 2020 real-time gameplay shown, and in 2020 they didn't have the world grid system of the new UE5 pre-release demo - as is stated in the twitch nanite video - so there's every possibility the PS5's version was streaming data crazily throughout - even if the editor mode he showed was all running from RAM - as he stated. The 2020 demo slides in an Unrealfest video does state the PS5 was stream compressing out to the PS5's SSD, as well as compressing geometry on the GPU in ram.

Dude do you even know what Word Partition is? Its just a workflow feature, has nothing to do with performance. Lumen in the Land of nanite demo wasn't used to build it and will never have it. Even when the project is released. Lastly They don't load nanite data per frame.

Omg, are some really that braindead? YES it's running on the PC inside the editor, but it's just editor mode not gameplay mode or compiled.

You have no idea what you are talking about. In editor mode you don't use game mechanics at all which only become active once you have your scene compiled where at that moment you release all features including physics, I/O, animation, destruction, different and dynamic lighting, sound vfx.

It is not difficult at all to understand that in editor mode all these features are not called upon, so you can't use that as a benchmark against the PS5 demo because we need to see the exact same demo running on the PC, and only then can we follow the difference in performance. You can only start optimizing after you have seen how your code runs with all the features. In editor mode you can't see that and it's not a benchmark...

Every thing you listed as reasons that PC can't run the demo. EXISTS in the valley of the ancient Demo. Infact more things exist there than the PS5 demo.
Teleportation, Attack Blast ability, explosion, drone flying mode, boss enemy.

1) Valley has physics
2) Valley needs only 3 GB Ram and 7 GB VRAM (I/O).
3) Valley has destruction,
4) Valley has Sound and music
5) Valley has VFX (the ancient ball is using the same Niagara particle system as the Portal)
6) Valley has different and dynamic lighting
7) Valley has walk, jump, attack, sit, drone flying
8) Valley has explosions which is more expensive

Even going with your warped logic, you still don't make sense.
Not only does the valley have all of this, but its actually more heavy in the valley demo (explosion uses translucency which is expensive).
Almost everything you listed runs on the CPU. The rest runs on the GPU. Which PC is vastly more powerful than the PS5 (chaos, lumen).

and none of it has anything to do with the only two new features in PS5, nanite and lumen.

Nanite is not affected my the destructions. Again you seem not to understand.
All the nanite data was 6.14 GB. Can you reply yes if you understand that?
Its already loaded. They don't load nanite data per frame, its already in the memory.

Chaos physics is a UE4 feature.


Niagara is a 3 years old feature that is very efficient.


The beetles and birds that you say makes the demo not to be able to run on the PC. The holy grail that you exhort is available on the UE4.26 content example for people to toy around with.
You should drag it into the Valley of the Ancient demo, If what you say is true. Then the demo should crash instantly because it doesn't recognize the PC as a PS5

 

[strange headache]

Dude they are BOTH THE EDITOR.

What makes the editor so heavy is because you are accessing all the source assets, source textures source materials, source shaders, uncompressed etc.
This allows you to be able to manipulate things, change colors, materials, renders. This is why you need 32-64 GB memory.

When you compile/package the project, you have none of the source assets, everything you have is compressed and baked out and can't be changed. So you don't have uncompressed source assets and shaders hanging in memory just in case you need to edit it. That's why the demo is 100 GB but the compile version is ~25GB.

In your video you spent the entire time speed dashing into the abys of no where. That's not a direct comparison.
Have you ever watched a DF comparison video? Or any graphics comparison video at all? My goodness.

1) All you had to do was hit the button so she gets up.
2) Drop your controller and don't move. That way you have like for like comparison and identical pixels.
3) Write down the FPS you see.
4) Press F8 to go back to free cam editor mode. (You can use F8 to swap back and forth between game mode and edit mode)
5) Write down the FPS you see.

You find out that its completely identical. When you actually came close to the campfire where the most density of assets are, the FPS in free cam (simulate) mode was identical with play mode.

Then you went to the dark side, a completely different level and location and you are comparing the performance there with your free cam seizure thing you did? Are you serious?

Finally you are only rendering about 70% because the World Outlier browser is taking up a huge part of the screen. Making any future full screen compiled comparison null and void.

Dude do you even know what Word Partition is? Its just a workflow feature, has nothing to do with performance. Lumen in the Land of nanite demo wasn't used to build it and will never have it. Even when the project is released. Lastly They don't load nanite data per frame.



Every thing you listed as reasons that PC can't run the demo. EXISTS in the valley of the ancient Demo. Infact more things exist there than the PS5 demo.
Teleportation, Attack Blast ability, explosion, drone flying mode, boss enemy.

1) Valley has physics
2) Valley needs only 3 GB Ram and 7 GB VRAM (I/O).
3) Valley has destruction,
4) Valley has Sound and music
5) Valley has VFX (the ancient ball is using the same Niagara particle system as the Portal)
6) Valley has different and dynamic lighting
7) Valley has walk, jump, attack, sit, drone flying
8) Valley has explosions which is more expensive

Even going with your warped logic, you still don't make sense.
Not only does the valley have all of this, but its actually more heavy in the valley demo (explosion uses translucency which is expensive).
Almost everything you listed runs on the CPU. The rest runs on the GPU. Which PC is vastly more powerful than the PS5 (chaos, lumen).

and none of it has anything to do with the only two new features in PS5, nanite and lumen.

Nanite is not affected my the destructions. Again you seem not to understand.
All the nanite data was 6.14 GB. Can you reply yes if you understand that?
Its already loaded. They don't load nanite data per frame, its already in the memory.

Chaos physics is a UE4 feature.


Niagara is a 3 years old feature that is very efficient.


The beetles and birds that you say makes the demo not to be able to run on the PC. The holy grail that you exhort is available on the UE4.26 content example for people to toy around with.
You should drag it into the Valley of the Ancient demo, If what you say is true. Then the demo should crash instantly because it doesn't recognize the PC as a PS5

This man really knows his stuff.

 

[SLB1904]

According to @davidjaffe, Bend Studio have moved from Unreal Engine to Guerrilla's Decima engine.

He says sources of his at Sony told him Days Gone 2 began development and was being made using Decima, not UE4. Now they'e using it to make a new IP open world game.

However, Sony's smallest team Pixelopus do seem to be working a new game using UE5.

This deserves a thread

 

[SLB1904]

Decima is becoming Sony's shared engine. It helps it getting evolved faster, waiting for it to fully utilize all the perks of PS5.

I was disappointed when I found out San Diego wasn't using Decima. Which really blows my mind if you think about it. Why pay royalties when you have a better engine.
Sony is weird

 

[PaintTinJr]

the PS5 will never do better than a 3080 ...stop it here already before another fud start

The PS5 and 3080 are inconsequential to the point I made about pixel-rate based on the info in the 3hrs of very intricate info they provided in the twitch stream about Nanite - not lumen + nanite - that I watched in it's entirety.

High clocks all "raise all boats" so the nature of the algorithms they talked about in terms of bottlenecks would also yield better results by clock-rate and lower latency by just scrubbing data that wasn't needed - as opposed to evicting everything - is the inferences I'm making.
Doesn't the high clocked 6900XT run the new demo better than the top tier nvidia card - or is that thread headline I glanced giving a false impression?

 

[harmny]

It has just as much detail but everything moves and is full of life unlike the static unreal demo and obviously the character models are ten times better.

Everything moves except for the grass and low foliage when someone walks on it. As static as a nanite rock. Oh and the trees. No wind at all at the beach? Witcher 3 still light years ahead

 

[Bo_Hazem]

Decima has a Nanite analog?
How are you gauging it as being "more than a match".
I know very little about the Decima engine so maybe you can enlighten me.

Nanite is an absolute revolution, the geometry it can handle is something beyond.
When they zoomed in on the portal at the end of the demo and you see that its made up of the super detailed wall ornaments from early.
My mind was blown.

But yeah if youve got any documentation or something i could read up on Decima as to why you think its "more than a match" for Unreal Engine 5, that would be swell.

Not the engine itself, but if it can program the engine for PS5 only so it can have the same effect accelerated by HW as Mark Cerny describes it, before having any GPU/CPU/RAM/Bandwidth penalty.

That's yet to be seen, but interesting stuff:

Spoiler: 5 screenshots from road to ps5

So it's engine-agnostic, but you need the engine to utilize the Geometry Engines inside PS5. I think it might as well accelerate Nanite in UE5 on a hardware level. It was a collaborative effort between Sony and Epic Games anyway.

 

[GuinGuin]

Everything moves except for the grass and low foliage when someone walks on it. As static as a nanite rock. Oh and the trees. No wind at all at the beach? Witcher 3 still light years ahead

There are many instances of the grass moving. I live by the beach. It isn't always windy, bud.

 

[MightySquirrel]

It will probably do better than that at nanite - lumen might be different we'll see in the next video - because the info by Brian and co in the video gave really illustrates why the old multi stage hw pipeline is via for less work in games, and why even 36 CUs might only really be there for traditional graphics/cross-gen that don't exploit nanite or something better - and 128 ROPs would have been even better in the consoles.

With the PS5 low latency, cache scrubbers and the to the metal nature of the console's graphics access - even if the XsX/Xss get it indirectly - we should see amazing nanite results on all the consoles, and probably see significant changes in PC graphics drivers to remove inefficiencies. The latency on material change pass should see big gains for the to-the-metal access where api calls become a drain on performance again - going by the info I took from the video.

Wait what did I miss? PS5 runs demo at 1080p 30 and rtx 3080 at 256x1440 60. So roughly 3 times better perf in valley demo.

What will happen in the near furure that will make currently 3 times faster 3080 get beaten by 3 times weaker ps5?

 

[GuinGuin]

I was disappointed when I found out San Diego wasn't using Decima. Which really blows my mind if you think about it. Why pay royalties when you have a better engine.
Sony is weird

They have invested a lot of money into Epic. Who says they have to pay royalties?

There are many instances of the grass moving. I live by the beach. It isn't always windy, bud.

Watched it again. All the leaves and palm fronds move gently in the light breeze.

 

[Md Ray]

Also you will NEVER have the same I/O bandwidth the PS5 has on PC.

This is a bold statement. I'd refrain from making blanket statements like this.

Sure, PC doesn't have dedicated HW decompressors and DirectStorage yet, and at the moment it's behind PS5. But that doesn't mean it will never catch up.

PCs already have access to faster SSDs than PS5. This is one piece of the puzzle... With DirectStorage - MS is bringing DirectCompute-based decompressor i.e. software-based decompression which will work on today's GPUs via RTX IO on the NVIDIA side by utilizing the GPU's SMs for asset decompression work, and there are plans to move towards hardware implementation just like they have on consoles. Think of it as moving from running ray tracing on shader cores to dedicated RT Cores.

Won't be long before AMD and NVIDIA come out with dedicated hardware decompression units built into their GPUs which might even surpass what's inside consoles in terms of max throughput of the decompression unit. PS5's max throughput of its Kraken decompression unit is 22 GB/s.

 

[thicc_girls_are_teh_best]

Makes me wonder what games stressing out the PS5s I/O are going to be like. I mean I know we have Ratchet coming out soon but I don't know if it's pushing the consoles I/O. I'm curious as to what's needed to make those types of games work on PC?

Right now? Well, a healthy amount of system RAM I'd guess. However by the time DirectStorage is widely available, system RAM requirements should be drastically lowered, since it'll be doing a lot of what GPUDirectStorage already does on Nvidia GPUs but with other differences (nonetheless AFAIK those two are compatible).

It's really hypothetical to try asking what you'd need PC-wise to run something like R&C when we're not even 100% sure o the bandwidth etc. figures R&C is using for those segments. Like if there's a way one of these game tech analysis channels can get access to that data in real-time then that'd be great but don't count on it.

That said, I'd wager at least a REALLY fast 8C/16T CPU (4.5 GHz or higher), 16 GB DRAM and a NVMe Gen 3 SSD (speed-wise probably isn't as important a factor versus # of channels, block & page sizes, latency on the NAND modules and features of the controller plus driver quality/stability).

I honestly don't think you need something near 5.5 GB/s or the equivalent decompression rates for what R&C is doing, but you definitely are going to need an SSD at the very least and one with a decent # of channels and latency figures, and a CPU fast enough to handle decompression (or wide enough to do it, so 16C/32T for example but clocked closer to the console CPUs could do the trick).

This is a bold statement. I'd refrain from making blanket statements like this.

Sure, PC doesn't have dedicated HW decompressors and DirectStorage yet, and at the moment it's behind PS5. But that doesn't mean it will never catch up.

PCs already have access to faster SSDs than PS5. This is one piece of the puzzle... With DirectStorage - MS is bringing DirectCompute-based decompressor i.e. software-based decompression which will work on today's GPUs via RTX IO on the NVIDIA side by utilizing the GPU's SMs for asset decompression work, and there are plans to move towards hardware implementation just like they have on consoles.

Won't be long before AMD and NVIDIA come out with dedicated hardware decompression units built into their GPUs which might even surpass what's inside consoles in terms of max throughput of the decompression unit. PS5's max throughput of its Kraken decompression unit is 22 GB/s.

Yeah, anyone who is holding out on PS5 or even Series systems having the upper-hand on PCs when it comes to storage I/O (in the commercial space anyway; if you take data-centers and cloud into account the consoles have nothing on those but that is also not a fair comparison TBH) is going to be disappointed within a year or so from now.

It's not even that PCs need dedicated hardware decompressors, either; those will help with lower-end systems but even mid-tier PCs a year or so from now will have enough spare system RAM and fast enough CPUs with a decent amount of spare cores to provide storage I/O comparable or superior to what the Series systems and even PS5 can provide, particularly if also leveraging DirectStorage or GPUDirectStorage (Nvidia's equivalent) and an NVMe SSD that is 2 GB/s - 8 GB/s (wide range yes, but you can hit the lower end if you supplement with more system RAM but would need the upper end if supplementing with much less).

There honestly has not been too many times where consoles had a clear upper hand over other gaming platforms and if so, for any duration of time longer than a year or so. There was cartridges with the Intellivision but then arcades moved from discrete logic circuits to PCBs bettering that in performance (though costing a lot more) and for storage space needs laserdisc a little bit later (Dragon's Lair, etc.). Consoles were among the first gaming devices to have dedicated, discrete GPUs (arcade systems like SEGA's Model 1 and Namco's System 21 could do 3D but used a lot of fixed-function DSPs and math co-processors in specialized setups to do it, i.e not a singular chip housing all of the 3D operations though, technically, the same can kind of be said for consoles like PS1 because the GTE had to send its results to the fixed-function (integer) math co-processor to combine in the framebuffer, which were all located elsewhere in the system in separate logic connected through a shared bus), before PCs eventually started putting out discrete GPU cards, but it didn't take long for PCs to surpass consoles in that area, either.

Then there's other things like memory cards, which didn't even start with consoles but with the Neo-Geo MVS of all things, or things like mainstream CD support for gaming which consoles (PS1 & Saturn) did standardize before PC, but it didn't take long for faster & better CD drives to become standard built into even mid-range/low-range PCs of that era, etc. If it sounds like I'm belittling technical advances of consoles, I'm not. It's just that there's never been a single generation where consoles have held any technical advantage over PCs (or going further back, microcomputers if sticking to purely consumer-level gaming devices) for more than a year or two, and that's being generous.

But that doesn't make what consoles have done and continue to do any less impressive, because the one advantage they've generally held over everything else (PCs, microcomputers, arcades etc.) is offering the best performance package for their value. The perf-per-dollar value of consoles, especially when they start reducing in price, is generally unmatched by other forms of gaming throughout the generation, considering with consoles you get the whole package whereas with, say, PC, the "whole package" will typically cost a good deal more for equivalent performance. That's where consoles typically excel and it'll be the same case here, so folks can take solace in that even when PC storage I/O surpasses the consoles in about 12-14 months

 

[GuinGuin]

Wait what did I miss? PS5 runs demo at 1080p 30 and rtx 3080 at 256x1440 60. So roughly 3 times better perf in valley demo.

What will happen in the near furure that will make currently 3 times faster 3080 get beaten by 3 times weaker ps5?

Who says that is the limit of the PS5? They capped the resolution and frame rate at that size and speed. The engine could also have gotten better optimization in the last year.

 

[SLB1904]

They have invested a lot of money into Epic. Who says they have to pay royalties?

I'm guessing. I don't think investing in Epic would get them free engine. Probably discounted but they definitely are paying

 

[Md Ray]

PS5 runs demo at 1080p 30

Where do you guys get your info from? It's dynamic 1440p upscaled to 4K, nowhere near 1080p.

Just moments ago someone here said the PS5 demo lacks ray tracing when it, in fact, doesn't lol.

 

[Werewolfgrandma]

It's dynamic 1440p upscaled to 4K.

They taking about the valley demo

 

[Md Ray]

They taking about the valley demo

Does Valley demo run at 1080p on PS5? Source?

 

[PaintTinJr]

Dude do you even know what Word Partition is? Its just a workflow feature, has nothing to do with performance. Lumen in the Land of nanite demo wasn't used to build it and will never have it. Even when the project is released. Lastly They don't load nanite data per frame.

You'll have to be more specific. AFAIK from watching the videos about UE5 that feature affects both the UE editor partitioning and the generated EXE data streaming for the project's target. Are you saying that doesn't alter how much data the packaged game uses at run-time, say on a mobile, X1 or PC?

If not, where in UE is that setting? because I assume the occlusion culling and frustum culling is done after the engine is told what can be in memory - based on loaded partitions -for a given camera position/direction in game, and not assuming that the frustum determines memory use.

 

[harmny]

There are many instances of the grass moving. I live by the beach. It isn't always windy, bud.

There are 0 instances of grass moving. You mean tall foliage where aloy hides.

It isn't always windy sure but i thought I saw a tornado at the end of the trailer. Why is every tree static as a rock? You can even see particles and wind flying around behind aloy

Drop the copium.

Hfw looks great but what was shown is static. At least for now.

meanwhile

 

[GuinGuin]

There are 0 instances of grass moving. You mean tall foliage where aloy hides.

It isn't always windy sure but i thought I saw a tornado at the end of the trailer. Why is every tree static as a rock? You can even see particles and wind flying around behind aloy

Drop the copium.

Hfw looks great but it is static. At least for now.

Watch it again. Everything you said was wrong. Grass does indeed move under foot and the leaves sway in the wind.

 

[staticshock]

Not the engine itself, but if it can program the engine for PS5 only so it can have the same effect accelerated by HW as Mark Cerny describes it, before having any GPU/CPU/RAM/Bandwidth penalty.

That's yet to be seen, but interesting stuff:

So it's engine-agnostic, but you need the engine to utilize the Geometry Engines inside PS5. I think it might as well accelerate Nanite in UE5 on a hardware level. It was a collaborative effort between Sony and Epic Games anyway.

Hardware rasterization is way slower. This is why Nanite more than ~90% of the times uses software rasterization and barely touches primitive shaders.
So no, geometry engine isn't really in play here.

The beauty of this for devs however is that they can utilize software rasterization with nanite and then mesh shaders for things like vegetation, etc.

 

[MonarchJT]

Wait what did I miss? PS5 runs demo at 1080p 30 and rtx 3080 at 256x1440 60. So roughly 3 times better perf in valley demo.

What will happen in the near furure that will make currently 3 times faster 3080 get beaten by 3 times weaker ps5?

yes another type of astroturfing is starting .... my god ... this now is the clock thing they are trying to hide behind ...to somehow see a PS5 advantage over more powerful GPUs in teraflops

 

[PaintTinJr]

Wait what did I miss? PS5 runs demo at 1080p 30 and rtx 3080 at 256x1440 60. So roughly 3 times better perf in valley demo.

What will happen in the near furure that will make currently 3 times faster 3080 get beaten by 3 times weaker ps5?

Please go watch all 3hours of the video, and then just compare the pixel-rate of the two pieces of hardware in question. Nanite by-passes so much of the traditional way of doing things. It is amazing to think it does an entire nanite base pass in a single drawcall for all 20 - 5 million triangles visible on screen in any frame.

The 3080 was still designed with brute forcing drawcalls in the GPU driver - that lives in RAM, - and taxes the CPU on a PC heavily.

 

[assurdum]

Pixel fill rate being the one single bottleneck of UE5.

Still not sure how you can say it's like to claim that ps5 hardware perform likely a 3080 on pixel fill rate with the UE5. You know the bandwidth it's still part of such processing.

 

[Bo_Hazem]

There are 0 instances of grass moving. You mean tall foliage where aloy hides.

It isn't always windy sure but i thought I saw a tornado at the end of the trailer. Why is every tree static as a rock? You can even see particles and wind flying around behind aloy

Drop the copium.

Hfw looks great but what was shown is static. At least for now.

meanwhile

Mate, The Witcher 3 looks like a turd today, maybe was nice back then (one of my best games of all times, was my best of all times back in 2015). Here is Ghost of Tsushima with so much going on and higher quality foliage other than just wind: (timestamped)





And HFW has crazy amount of unique assets and foliage, and they're not static. Also it's not always windy in real life not sure if you've been outside recently.

 

[MonarchJT]

yeah all beautiful all clear the clock has advantages IF ... and I say IF ... compared to a card with the same characteristics , otherwise as we well know (and above all all the producers teach us) the paralelization of several CUs and all the rest trump those small advantages that you have at the expense of heating / dissipation / consumption

Nvidia 3090 :
Base Clock 1395M MHz
BoostClock 1695 MHz

Nvidia 3080:
Base Clock 1440 MHz
Boost Clock1710 MHz

Nvidia 3070:
Base Clock1500 MHz
Boost Clock1725 MHz

AMD 6900XT:
Base Clock1825 MHz
Game Clock2015 MHz
Boost Clock2250 MHz

AMD 6700 XT:
Base Clock2321 MHz
Game Clock2424 MHz
Boost Clock2581 MHz

 

[assurdum]

yeah all beautiful all clear the clock has advantages IF ... and I say IF ... compared to a card with the same characteristics , otherwise as we well know the paralelization of several CUs and all the rest trump those small advantages that you have at the expense of heating / dissipation / consumption

Nvidia 3090 :
Base Clock 1395M MHz
BoostClock 1695 MHz

Nvidia 3080:
Base Clock 1440 MHz
Boost Clock1710 MHz

Nvidia 3070:
Base Clock1500 MHz
Boost Clock1725 MHz

AMD 6900XT:
Base Clock1825 MHz
Game Clock2015 MHz
Boost Clock2250 MHz

AMD 6700 XT:
Base Clock2321 MHz
Game Clock2424 MHz
Boost Clock2581 MHz

CU higher counts trump if they have the same clock speed of the GPU with less, couldn't be otherwise otherwise what's the point of CU? But I doubt CU has anything to do with pixel fill rate...

 

[MonarchJT]

CU higher counts trump if they have the same clock speed...and I doubt CU has anything to do with pixel fill rate...

a GPU with Less cu starts at a disadvantage and needs a higher clock to stay in the game. The PS5 in no way will perform like a 3080 (and we can bet the account on this) despite having more fillrates...it seems people will never learn