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Inside Unreal: In-depth look at PS5's Lumen in the land Of Nanite demo(only 6.14gb of geometry) and Deep dive into Nanite
- Thread starter Lethal01
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CuNi
Member
I don't know if you have trouble reading.
People ITT say Editor is more demanding than final (shipped and build) version.
Snake is saying otherwise.
Guy that works on UE5 says "Performance is lower in Editor", so he says Editor is more demanding than final (shipped and build) version which is exactly what people have been saying.
What's your point exactly?
Andrew Lauritzen wasn't talking about keeping everything in memory, though. He was talking about the IO demands of the streaming system itself.
"In general why do people even get the impression that lots of IO is even required? As noted in the live streams as well, the texture data in the demo exceeds the size of the geometric data and no one seems to think virtual texturing systems that have been in use for many years require DirectStorage or super high bandwidth SSDs.
SSDs are definitely important (but not necessarily required) for latency reasons. Some amount of bandwidth is necessary to keep up with streaming while moving quickly through a world too, but in my experience it's not nearly as much as people seem to think it is. Where are people getting these impressions?"
"I think it's safe for me to reiterate from the stream that there is nothing special going on in either of the demos on PC in terms of IO... it's doing the same thing as the consoles (consoles use the platform-specific final package compression stuff of course, but if anything that makes it even smaller there). You can go play with the cvars and arbitrary limit bandwidth and so on yourself now and see how they affect things."
Unreal Engine 5, [UE5 Developer Availability 2022-04-05]
In one of the videos brian karis said the assets in new demo were sized so that a machine with 64GB ram can store whole level in ram. This will bypass any DirectStorate/Streaming issues. We can't stream optimally in PC until microsoft releases windows version with directstorage and epic releases...
forum.beyond3d.com
Bernd Lauert
Banned
PR is a hell of a drug. For more than a year some people couldn't shut up about how great Nanite + Lumen is. I wonder if this will keep happening now.
Darius87
Member
yes you're right i misread lol.
Bernd Lauert
Banned
Sweeney deliberately made his China lead engineer look like a fool who supposedly can't tell the difference between natively run code and a video of running the code. Dude is a massive troll. And people here actually bought into his nonsense just because it fit a certain narrative
I hope they learn.
CuNi
Member
It's okay. This thread is now 14 pages long for whatever reason and there was a lot of back and forth. I feel like we'll never reach a consensus on this topic as a forum since some posters show the same traits as flat earthers where they demand proof to the point that devs post on forums and make live-streams to address misconceptions and they still deny it.
I bet we reached a point where even if EPIC would ever release the PS5 demo, you'd hear people say "well, that's one year later, I bet back then it wasn't possible" or some other spin.
I feel like we should just all come to terms that it is a great engine and we all, regardless of console or PC, are very eagerly looking forward for the games that will be made on it in during this generation.
DonJuanSchlong
Banned
Condescending? Do you not recall every single day since "The road to Ps5"? Or every thread created to shit on PC and Xbox, every possible chance people got? All the armchair devs that said it couldn't run at all, or it would have to be seriously downgraded? All the people saying the Epic China stuff was fake?
You don't see PC guys shitting up the threads and creating false narratives. Now that we have proof in the finest form, these same warriors are trying to paint a different story than what is being told, directly from the horses mouth. I can't make this stuff up. It's great to be confident in something you believe. But it's extremely bad to be confidently wrong, especially doubling down on false narratives.
Nah not gonna happen. Take a look at some of the responses still. Epic could even come out and say it was the PC all along running the first demo, and these guys would still be in denial.
Tim is a fucking clown for that, seriously. I wonder if anyone grilled him in Twitter, and got a response after this clusterfuck of PR. People were getting thread banned for bringing up the China devs at one point, since so many fanboys tried to make it a reality that Epic China was fake.Sweeney deliberately made his China lead engineer look like a fool who supposedly can't tell the difference between natively run code and a video of running the code. Dude is a massive troll. And people here actually bought into his nonsense just because it fit a certain narrative
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Darius87
Member
yea it's confusing as fuck at first when PS5 land of nanite showed up Sweeney said said this isn't possible with breakthrough sony made with SSD now story is that IO requirements isn't that heavy so what breakthrough sony made? if it could run on XSX SSD or even lower tier SSD's?
DonJuanSchlong
Banned
PR. Strictly PR. If the SSD was maxed out or using more data than XSX could throughput for example, it would be praised to the rooftops. It would be well known, advertised, and devs would give concrete numbers. This obviously isn't the case, even with something as advanced and futuristic as UE5.
If people would just keep up with development, while completely ignoring PR, we wouldn't be in this situation. The writings have always been on the wall. People just pick and choose what they want to believe in.
If people would just keep up with development, while completely ignoring PR, we wouldn't be in this situation. The writings have always been on the wall. People just pick and choose what they want to believe in.
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Hawks Eclipse
Member
While Tim's replies to that tweet were rubbish, I don't think he was implying the Chinese engineer was stupid.Sweeney deliberately made his China lead engineer look like a fool who supposedly can't tell the difference between natively run code and a video of running the code. Dude is a massive troll. And people here actually bought into his nonsense just because it fit a certain narrative
Instead he was implying that the rumours of the laptop specs were spread by people who mistook the laptop in the discussion as being the laptop that the engineer talked about (which was not shown at all). It's not much better obviously, lol.
Tim was lying 100% and the china guy has been always right it was clear from the first moment ......A total and embarrassing shitshow solely because Sony had paid Epic or there was some clause after Sony's acquisition of Epic shares
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LMJ
Member
reasonable people, not console loyalists...You can't argue with a loyalist they are blinded by their idealism.
Hmmm I recall a WHOLE lot of Box loyalists talking down to PS fans about the power differential (we even got a meme thread) and a shit ton of bickering when that power didn't show itself (again and a shit ton of bickering) I recall PC fans disregarding the SSD in the PS5 as anything but "PR" (because Cerny is a hack) and a whole lot of petty console/PC warring since then over stupid crap #another one. Are you kidding me
DonJuanSchlong
PC loyalists have all but been port begging and talking down to PS fans due to the ports of Days Gone and Horizon for a while now...honestly it's a joke on both sides.Perhaps you and the Box loyalists drop the victim mentality and accept ALL sides are guilty of stupid hyperbole, while many of us here just laugh at it and try to have a discussion about our favorite hobby. I do know 90% of the time the (see my post above) zealots and ideologues can't be argued with, but reasonable people (the bulk on Gaf FYI) want to have a discussion/debate and that's fine
As for the "Epic china stuff" you mean the at the time "questionable" source, yeah it was questionable for good cause... There have been plenty of so called "leaks" that turned out to be false, then again there have been a few that were also true...hence why they should be taken as a rumor...
Yeah I see plenty in this very thread that think this looks incredible and opens many doors
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Hawks Eclipse
Member
Eh, like I said those particular replies of his were rubbish but I wouldn't categorize them as lies. Might have been his worst tweets of 2020 for me.
Mister Wolf
Gold Member
Werewolfgrandma
Banned
Sweeney has been talking bullshit for over 20 years now. Anyone who has followed him for any amount of time knows that. He's a salesman. It's part of his job.
The lesson for everyone and this really shouldn't be a lesson.
If someone is selling a product, take everything they say with a huge grain of salt.
DonJuanSchlong
Banned
Please show me where PC guys just show up to ps5 threads just to shit on the console? In my experience, anytime something like that happens, is only after it's been instigated by console fanboys.reasonable people, not console loyalists...You can't argue with a loyalist they are blinded by their idealism.
Hmmm I recall a WHOLE lot of Box loyalists talking down to PS fans about the power differential (we even got a meme thread) and a shit ton of bickering when that power didn't show itself (again and a shit ton of bickering) I recall PC fans disregarding the SSD in the PS5 as anything but "PR" (because Cerny is a hack) and a whole lot of petty console/PC warring since then over stupid crap #another one. Are you kidding me
Perhaps you and the Box loyalists drop the victim mentality and accept ALL sides are guilty of stupid hyperbole, while many of us here just laugh at it and try to have a discussion about our favorite hobby. I do know 90% of the time the (see my post above) zealots and ideologues can't be argued with, but reasonable people (the bulk on Gaf FYI) want to have a discussion/debate and that's fine
As for the "Epic china stuff" you mean the at the time "questionable" source, yeah it was questionable for good cause... There have been plenty of so called "leaks" that turned out to be false, then again there have been a few that were also true...hence why they should be taken as a rumor...
Yeah I see plenty in this very thread that think this looks incredible and opens many doors
Saying a game will look better on PC doesn't count, as that's always been the case, minus bad ports. But you have some people thinking 10TF >>>> 35TF, which is ridiculous as it comes. Or you have people saying pixel fill rate will negates any stronger GPU's benefits. You obviously prefer consoles, which is perfectly fine, but I think you are using your bias to not realize most of these warriors take any chance to shit on PC.
About "port begging", you do realize Jim and Herman said these games will each come to PC? This means these games will come. Nothing wrong with people anticipating the release date. I think you should take a step back and look at things from a non biased view, and maybe you'll realize how things usually go on these boards.
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oldergamer
Member
This thread has been brutal to some. I called this soon after seeing the demo. Nothing in that demo that couldnt work on other systems. Its too bad some were fooled by the marketing.
DonJuanSchlong
Banned
In a way, **I kind of don't blame them if they are new to gaming**.
For those of us who have been around the block a few times, we've seen PR each generation, and how the less informed just soak the shit up. Just lapping it up.
The people who have seen it each generation, know to stay clear of it, and not to believe anything they say. Remember, consoles would make PC obsolete, according to Tim Sweeney. Imagine how unreal engine 4 or 5 would run if his "prediction" would have been correct? Gaming would have died out years ago, if we believed that hack. I love the company Epic and the tech they bring, but Sweeney loves to stir the pot for all the wrong reasons.
If "the other side started it" is a valid excuse, then the wars will be never ending. I think the best way of getting others to see your point of view is precisely *not* to try to antogonise them further.
DonJuanSchlong
Banned
So your response is basically, turn the other cheek? Why not tell the warriors to calm their expectations, like we already do or have done? Why is it our responsibility to bend over and just take it? You already know these clowns take any and everything, not even at face value, but spin their own imagination into the picture.
With that mentality, you are pretty much saying PC, Xbox, and Nintendo guys need to GTFO of NeoGAF. Cause you can't have a realistic conversation with some of these guys, and if we can't defend ourselves, what makes you think anyone would stay on a predominantly PlayStation site? This is exactly why we speak up whenever these asshats make ridiculous claims, like you'll see in this thread, and just about every thread.
DenchDeckard
Moderated wildly
Over a year of potential Hype and back and forth down the toilet because of a salesman selling snake oil to Sony fans and them taking the words of Tim Sweeney as gospel.
Pouring one out for the poor chinese engineer at Epic, and undoubtedly the dozens of forum users who were probably banned for questioning the PS5 hype based on that video. Also pouring one out for all the Sony fans that are eating skip fulls of crow right now.
ANyone who stepped back and looked at it could see that it was not the PS5 IO driving that demo.
Everyone got fucked by this bullshit in some way or another. Good job Tim Sweeney!
Pouring one out for the poor chinese engineer at Epic, and undoubtedly the dozens of forum users who were probably banned for questioning the PS5 hype based on that video. Also pouring one out for all the Sony fans that are eating skip fulls of crow right now.
ANyone who stepped back and looked at it could see that it was not the PS5 IO driving that demo.
Everyone got fucked by this bullshit in some way or another. Good job Tim Sweeney!
Self_Destructive
Member
Uh... lmfao... read it again.ahahahahahaha...
It just proves these PCMR elitist doesn't know anything.
we might consider crows endangered species now.
RAM requirements are higher...
and performance is lower in the editor... which is what PC gamers have been saying. Thus compiling and running the demo outside of the editor, is more performant.....
So when PC gamers state that the demo runs in the editor.. at higher framerates than the PS5 demo.... that means they're saying it can easily run the PS5 demo...
Which Andrew confirmed is less intensive as far as the demo is concerned.
Take your "ownage" and walk back out the door
martino
Member
what to do you want to create ? an unplayable dbz game ?
Werewolfgrandma
Banned
It's not just Tim though. Look at the Ratchet threads on SSD shit. People are pulling out of context quotes and proclaiming utter bullshit. Completely skipping the context that takes away the "magic".
I'm not sure why great games for everyone is so upsetting to some people.
DonJuanSchlong
Banned
For SSD validation? Or because you generally are curious?
Self_Destructive
Member
The entire map is in memory...
Watch here at 35:10 He scrubs through completely different angles and lighting extremely fast and there's no delay... as I said.. the entire thing is in memory. Texture streaming is virtualized, and PCs have MORE memory for textures. He's rapidly changing views far quicker than any game would have you doing so.
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Werewolfgrandma
Banned
Would be a neat stress test. Although not practical because when would a game not know where you were going to be teleported.
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Darius87
Member
yes i misread already stated that.Uh... lmfao... read it again.
RAM requirements are higher...
and performance is lower in the editor... which is what PC gamers have been saying. Thus compiling and running the demo outside of the editor, is more performant.....
So when PC gamers state that the demo runs in the editor.. at higher framerates than the PS5 demo.... that means they're saying it can easily run the PS5 demo...
Which Andrew confirmed is less intensive as far as the demo is concerned.
Take your "ownage" and walk back out the door
DonJuanSchlong
Banned
Self_Destructive
just posted A great example. This entire map is in memory, and why it would perform better than other hardware relying on I/O.
EDMIX
Member
Agreed completely.
1. Epic has shown unreal on PS3, PS4 and now PS5, nothing they are doing is brand new in regards to showing their engine running on the latest Sony console, as to why NOW suddenly folks are pretending its a mystery if it will be on other platforms is beyond me.
2. The SSD speeds allow for them to do some truly revolutionary shit, but not being on PC YET, doesn't mean not being on PC EVER, massive difference. By default PC would be the platform that we would see those speeds next on anyway. How its done on PS5 might be pretty new, but its not an exclusive idea that will never be done in the future or something for anyone to really be making it sound like Unreal Engine 5 on PC won't do the same thing.
It sure will with the right hardware.
By default that should be expected.
DonJuanSchlong
Banned
It was ran on PC. With better performance. That's why people are bickering in this thread, and grasping at straws.
In an environment where the intention is not to "have a realistic conversation", but rather to defend your particular tribe, whether that be PC gamers, PlayStation gamers, Xbox gamer etc., the people who will be attracted to that environment are those that share that motivation. Create a warzone and the warriors will flood in. So the risk is not that PC or Xbox fans will leave the site, but that "reasonable" fans will leave the site, leaving only warriors, since all space for actual discussion is extinguished. And I don't think we ever have to worry about running out of warriors on the internet!
So no, I don't think that a scorched earth policy of fighting fire with fire improves the quality of discourse on the forum. For example, even in this thread there are interesting questions about latency vs bandwidth and the role of DirectStorage that won't get addressed, so long as the topic is really "how could PlayStation fans have possibly believed X. Let's all collectively laugh at them". Anyway I'm (perhaps hypocritically) taking this thread off topic, so I'll leave it there.
DonJuanSchlong
Banned
No, I agree with some of your arguments. I'm not completely disagreeing with you. We shouldn't exactly shun those who fell for PR exactly. It's more so the console warriors that have seen the evidence, have read the white papers, and have read the discussions, yet continually push a specific imaginary agenda. Those should be the ones banned on the site, not the ones who bring a legitimate rebuttal to an argument about how Epic China devs could have been right all along.
It's perfectly fine to speculate and all that, but within reason. To somehow come to the conclusion that PC and Xbox would run this demo at lower quality than ps5 is the biggest laughing stalk right now. And this wouldn't even be an issue is Sweeney and Cerny didn't put a big push that their SSD would be the holy grail of all I/O. They made fans believe something that isn't even true. There are people claiming SSD bandwidth was maxed out for Horizon, yet it's a crossgen for example. Anyone arguing that before it was announced as crossgen, got continually piled on and shitted on.
It shouldn't be this way at all. Each side needs to be within reason. Yet we just don't have realistic expectations from PlayStation fans, cause most people believed 1st and 3rd party devs, because obvious marketing agreements, which came to light after the fact, yet people still want to run with it.
With that being said, it's obviously not PC guys doing this shit. We are only arguing with logic and facts, vs speculating and PR. We shouldn't be perceived as the bad guys here. You only have a handful of people to blame, which just so happen to be in marketing deals or 1st party devs (no irony there)
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Werewolfgrandma
Banned
Is that still the case when compiled? Assuming average 16gb Ram
DonJuanSchlong
Banned
That would be dependant on how big the world would be, and how the areas are managed. But if this whole demo can be loaded into memory, within the editor, I don't see it being a problem for a compiled version with 16gb of RAM. Especially after seeing how little resources are used when the executable runs.
Kenpachii
Member
That whole video is a gold mine. thanks for posting. that bike in the statue room with its chain amazing. The speed he fly's through the PS5 demo and not halt is also impressive.
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PaintTinJr
Member
No reasonably minded person said it couldn't run on XsX or PC IMHO, but by Brian and Co's own nanite reveal video - that this thread is about - they are outperforming conventional rendering with nanite by 3 to 1, and the results in the original video still show that in abundance, so people that did get the wrong end of the stick were looking at traditional rendering (by that quick calculation) that would need a pixel rate or 3x142GP/s = ~400GigaPixels/s, which is way beyond any consumer card in the market. Believing that the "best in class" IO system of the device it was shown on was responsible - because of the way it was all behind NDAs - isn't necessarily people having unrealistic expectations of the device it was shown on.
Look at it this way, the information from the Epic engineer over at beyond 3D is worded very specifically, about the PS5 demo occupying less space in ram because of its platform specific IO/decompression. Surely that infers that if the demo is the baseline of the background rendering that nanite/lumen can do for games, then by reducing the memory footprint for the nanite/lumen data (768MB after compression by the GPU is the unrealfest slide info for lumen in the land of nanite, that must be for that 6.14GB, so an active saving of 5.5GB), then it stands to reason that traditional foreground rendering on devices with fast IO and decompression - like the consoles - are going to get an effective 5.5GB more than the systems have - and even more as nanite is applied to more and more of the dynamic rendering via clever tricks.
I agree they went about this all wrong, but in the end, it will finally move the minimum specs on PC from a year of uncertainty - which is a moving a mountain task - and the consoles will achieve more than equal systems without such IO IMHO.
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Lethal01
Member
Curious how it could work for a few situations, As a more seamless implementation of GTA5's character switching.
But now that you mention it yeah a DBZ/superhero game where you had a super move that teleported you to random locations in the world, or for cutscenes that focus on several totally different scenes, or even something like Ratchet and Clank.
Don't turn this into a console war thing, I'd love to do this experiment on a bunch of different specifications from a PC with 128GB of ram to one that has 16GB and an SSD to something at switch level. Just wanna see a worse case scenario.
Plenty of people have said that the pc couldn’t compete with the ps5. Pointing out they are dead wrong is not condescending. It’s a fact.
For a full year people pushed the bull crap theory that on ps5 could render that scene while Xbox and pc could not. Go look at some of my old posts from that reveal and the responses I got.
na:
"In general why do people even get the impression that lots of IO is even required? As noted in the live streams as well, the texture data in the demo exceeds the size of the geometric data and no one seems to think virtual texturing systems that have been in use for many years require DirectStorage or super high bandwidth SSDs.
SSDs are definitely important (but not necessarily required) for latency reasons. Some amount of bandwidth is necessary to keep up with streaming while moving quickly through a world too, but in my experience it's not nearly as much as people seem to think it is. Where are people getting these impressions?"
"I think it's safe for me to reiterate from the stream that there is nothing special going on in either of the demos on PC in terms of IO... it's doing the same thing as the consoles (consoles use the platform-specific final package compression stuff of course, but if anything that makes it even smaller there). You can go play with the cvars and arbitrary limit bandwidth and so on yourself now and see how they affect things."
the i/o is generally a plus. the detail seen in the PS5 demo could world very well with a normal SSD without even considering direct storage ... rtx i / or even better the Xbox series which already has direct storage a custom nvmes ssd .. the SFS for textures and hw decompressors
Chukhopops
Member
One more theory that can be safely put to rest now.
Represent.
Represent(ative) of bad opinions
On my phone at work, hows it look? Noticeably better? More or less the same? No hyperbole plz thanks
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