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Inside's new patch for the Steam version removes Denuvo
- Thread starter GavinUK86
- Start date
Possumowner
Member
Well that's good to hear,such a wonderful game aswell
CecilRousso
Member
Let's hope Abzu is next, and that indie developer stays clear of this path from now on.
Got little hope that major publishers would do this. The only reason I could see them doing it is if they have to keep paying for Denuvo over time, like some posts here on Neogaf have suggested in other Denuvo threads.
Yeah, it's what's also preventing me from buying Abzu - both seem like stellar experiences. Hope the dev reconsiders.
Dusk Golem
A 21st Century Rockefeller
It's because this line of thought is the very fear mongering I'm talking about.
Like, I know why people think it. It's the fear that a few years down the line they'll lose access to their games, the servers will go down and then it won't do a first-time silent set-up it does and then the DRM will screw them over. And some people just dislike any form of DRM due to negative past experience with shitty DRM which has soured the well for them and they don't want to support it, or believe games should be 'pure' and not soiled by DRM or something of that sort.
Denuvo is not a disruptive DRM is the first bit, but more so everything people try to pin on it is based on assumptions with no evidence. The fear is they go out of buisness and then you'll no longer have access to these games, but there's been active proof against this, not for this. Firstly it's apparently very easy to remove it developer side as been presented by devs who do remove it and multiple accoubts by developers, but then the fear becomes developers won't view it as a worthwhile investment to remove it past active support. But then Denuvo themselves have active plans for support if their service ever goes down, and it's already been demonstrated in action it is more than possible for Denuvo to be removed user-side even if the developer never removes it and Denuvo's fail safe for whatever reason didn't go through.
My problem with the arguements against it is that it's not based on evidence of any kind, as there's actually evidence to oppose the viewpoints people argue against it. It is legitmately only seeded in fear of DRM, the assumption that DRM is bad and must have these elements because it is DRM and they didn't think of any of this beforehand, ala fear mongering even in the face of opposing evidence.
Where is your evidence? Your arguments are nothing but speculation without any sources to back it up. If you criticize people for not providing evidence, you better provide evidence for your own claims.
I really think you are using the word "evidence" incredibly lightly there.
Relying on the goodwill of publishers and DRM companies is not "evidence", it's "faith".
The only evidence we truly have is a list of online DRM schemes which went defunct and rendered games unplayable without cracking.
Relying on the goodwill of publishers and DRM companies is not "evidence", it's "faith".
The only evidence we truly have is a list of online DRM schemes which went defunct and rendered games unplayable without cracking.
I really hope no sane mind actually used this as a reason to not buy this game. Rofl.
Right. I'm sure that all the people in this thread who have hundreds (or, in some cases, thousands) of games on Steam were just counting the days until they could finally pirate Inside. There's no way for anyone to have other motivations to dislike DRM.
CecilRousso
Member
My answer to whats wrong with it is in post #33 in this thread.
And your assumption that it's just about piracy just comes off as än attempt to make a complicated issue easier then what it really is.
Dusk Golem
A 21st Century Rockefeller
Sorry for the bit of a late reply, but I had to go dig up stuff from a previous Denuvo discussion had in an old topic.
What I'm about to say pulls from these sources to kind of give my painted view of it, you can read more in detail, I'll paraphrase what's said a bit:
http://www.denuvo.com/#page-4
^The official site of Denuvo's "official statements" on it.
http://www.eurogamer.net/articles/2014-12-19-denuvo-anti-tamper-drm
^This one about the DRM aspects of Denuvo.
http://www.mcvuk.com/news/read/denuvo-on-fighting-the-war-against-piracy/0173963
^This one on the piracy aspects and Denuvo developer words.
https://www.quora.com/What-are-the-difficulties-of-cracking-a-Denuvo-protected-game
^This report from someone detailing Denuvo's systems in the process of studying cracking it.
http://blackshellmedia.com/2016/07/23/denuvo-effective-yet-controversial-drm/
^This good recollection of the controversy Denuvo has spun and the games that have included it.
And there's more from Developers talking about their decision to add Denuvo to the title on Steam Discussions and such. The developers of INSIDE probably would actually be nice to hear from on this as they're the first developer to drop Denuvo a bit after launch, but it has been said by a few developers that Denuvo is apparently very easy to remove from the developer side but none outside of INSIDE just now have actually dropped it's support yet, so getting their word of how easy it was to drop it would be useful information (though I'd doubt they'd share it).
The main painting is Denuvo itself only will function with another DRM, but the DRM it mostly functions with is Steam itself. Denuvo is Anti-Tamper DRM designed to make it work so that people can't pirate games easily. It can't work by itself because of how it functions to my understanding, the service it most commonly works with is Steam, to super simplify it from my understanding of some discussion from both pirates trying to crack it and Steam Developers on the Steam developer forum is that it does a quick check at several triggers to make sure it is a licensed copy of the game, the information for this is stored and checked on more than one server, including a server stored internally, but also externally, which is part of the failsafe Denuvo talks about since if someone bought the game and already had it validated then Denuvo wouldn't need to revalidate it associated with a certain DRM 'account' (in most cases, Steam). Moreover, it's one of the more expensive DRMs because it's constantly updated to evolve and change as opposed to staying consistent. The other things I could say would more be on theory that evidence, so I'll keep it to myself, but the basic idea is:
A.) Denuvo has had no proven disadvantages for anyone who has bought a game with Denuvo at this point in time.
B.) Denuvo doesn't just use its own servers to validate, and does not work alone. It can't work without another form of DRM, the most common one is Steam. To my understanding even if Denuvo went down, if you had launched the game before, it'd be stored on Steam's services to continue to let you play.
C.) Denuvo can be changed. I only mention this because if they wanted to, they could disable the checks if they ever thought they were going under.
But more so, it's a self-made enemy. If you look up Denuvo, you'll mostly find posts and articles with such opinionated claims as, "Denuvo defeated! _____ cracked!", as if Denuvo has had some negative effect on anyone yet outside of pirates.
You worded it well Durante, faith might be a better word in a lot of cases than evidence, and I do understand why many people have 'bad faith' in DRM from past experiences. But I guess the other half of this is that there's been no 'evidence' against it, like there's a lot of hyperbole calling it the worst, slashes against it, and negative connotations which aren't actually based on anything related to Denuvo, but DRM in general. If you search up Denuvo (which I just did) you'll find a lot of people trying to spread negative word on it are (surprise) mostly from pirating communities. A lot of them bitching about it is what I got when searching for some of the stuff just now, it's prevalent in discussion about the DRM, mostly because I don't think most outside of pirates or people who keep up on this stuff like GAF'ers even realize if a game has Denuvo. It's not like I want Denuvo in games specifically, it's more like I have never seen a legitimate piece of criticism about the service itself, it's all based on other companies and their shitty DRM rather than on Denuvo itself. I can understand the reason developers would find having it in their games due to piracy concerns and the fact it doesn't really do anything to any actual buyers at this point in time. I understand most people's dislike of it is based on the potential it has to be bad, but I think that mindset isn't a productive one. It's based in fear, and I think the worst of people comes from acting and processing information through a lens of fear. If there were need for concern, then I'd be concerned and more understanding towards the criticism, but at the moment it just seems people's case against Denuvo is based entirely in other companies bad DRM rather than anything Denuvo itself actually does.
I asked for it to be removed, feel free to look up my steam library tho, it's In my GAF profile.
Steam doesn't store anything. The licence validation requires phoning home to Denuvo's own servers, which madjoki illustrates in this post. It is also -- or at least can also be -- periodical as many people have found that they can't launch MGSV and perhaps other protected games after some amount of time. The whole "anti-tamper" label is just disingenuous marketing; Denuvo is indeed DRM in and of itself (it even imposes a 24-hour install limit, not entirely unlike TAGES), but that it doesn't require... host DRM, I suppose, is a moot point as in this day and age, none of the publishers using it release games that aren't tied to a service. Bethesda with Steam, Ubisoft with Uplay, EA with Origin, etc.
@Dusk Golem: well marketing articles and random news sites are pretty much as trustworthy as random reddit pirate explaining how it works .. at least to me especially when one of these points majdoki disproved right here on gaf
Wonder how denuvo works on Ocullus store (games like Edge of Nowhere or The Climb);-)
Dusk Golem
A 21st Century Rockefeller
That's interesting, I was thinking Steam due to some internal discussion from Steam Devs on the developer forum since there is some small discussion about all of this there, but it is true they didn't specify it was stored on Steam so I probably misunderstood. They were mentioning how it stores things both internally and externally and how it interacts with DRM ala Steam, so I probably did jump to a wrong conclusion there. The discussion was very interesting as it was primarily about the pros and cons of trying to protect one's game. But I should of assumed so since Steam's "DRM" really only protects a game before it's released, and not really afterward.
Yeah, Steam's data encryption system is adept at preventing pre-release leaks while CEG is rather useless as post-release DRM, hence Denuvo being used in concert.
there was a time when even CEG was quite harcore protection which took weeks to beat .... iirc it was around the time they introduced HWid checks to it (Saints Row IV i belive) and with the introduction of x64 CEG (iirc F1 2015)
Although currently they are silently patching CEG out of the most games that used it ...
Just a few days, it seems. SR4 released on August 20th, 2013 and hit torrent sites on the 23rd, although some partially-functioning cracks surfaced sooner.
I recall you mentioning this earlier in the year, too, but CEG hasn't been discontinued. You can read all about how to implement it on the Steamworks documentation site, and Rag Doll Fung Fu -- one of the oldest games on Steam -- still uses it, although the executable is so old that the function it uses to invoke the client is no longer supported, so rather than forcibly launching Steam and then running, the game just insta-crashes. Interestingly, CEG has to be applied every time the executable is updated, so if you've noticed here and there that a game known to be tethered to the client could now be launched without Steam running, I'd wager that was the result of someone simply forgetting to reapply the wrapper when updating the game.
AcceptableGhost
Member
I wish Valve would add DRM Free as a possible tag on game pages.
Coreda
Member
A) This isn't true at all. Look up the previous threads on Denuvo here and you'll find dozens of users who've experienced issues with the servers going down and not being able to play the game.
B) It needs to check activation every so often. I've experienced this myself. When it does, even if Steam is in Offline mode, if it can't check the activation you're locked out of playing the game.
Isnt Stalker Clear Sky one of those "GOG Reclaim Your Game"?
https://www.gog.com/reclaim
All you need is the serial..
who knows , i am not saying discontinued , but I just noticed some games to remove it recently (Dirt Rally, Xcom2, Talos Principle [although their custom fun stuff is still there] and Total War: Attila for example)
To get back to topic of Inside ... I still didnt finished Limbo :-(
Attila, Talos (both executables) and XCOM 2 still use it, at least. Dirt Rally I don't have installed.
Edit: Dirt Rally doesn't use CEG, but it also doesn't run when launched outside of Steam (instant silent crash), so I'm inclined to believe that CEG wasn't removed but instead just wasn't applied to begin with. I mean, it stands to reason that if Valve were quietly removing CEG from games, it'd first test them to see if they actually work without the client present as stripping the DRM from games that require Steam to function is an exercise in pointlessness since doing so doesn't actually achieve anything.
I have no clue, but is that why the progression bar in sometimes takes two or three minutes, and sometimes loading in just 2 seconds (literally)..?
Anyway, had I seen that the Dishonored 2 had Denuvo, I wouldn't have bought it either....
Maintenance
Member
Now I might buy it.
ok , maybe they are just tampering down the DRM/Antitamper/"whatever they call it now" layer of the CEG (not really sure , just have fiends who are more familar with messing with it)
iirc was creating unique executables based on cpuid's (tested it with full offline-able setup copieed to computer with different cpu) [can be teste with some generic cracked steam_api ... but thats borderline piracy ]
Both Talos and Atiila have some additional custom DRM checks on tom of steam ones
Generalpsyduck
Banned
Yay! Def going to pick it up now!
That is nonsense for a game that was pirated months ago.
As dumb as it sounds to you, I'm not buying planet coaster for the same reason
CecilRousso
Member
I did the same with Planet Coaster as I did with all other Denuvo games, put it in a lower spot on the priority list over games to buy.
Well, not to be rude, but I'm sure you can understand my scepticism: you've now adjusted your claim to account for my post but have still not provided any data to support it, and in fact it can be inferred that no such thing is happening, which I've already gone over. Sorry, but in the absence of tangible evidence, I find the assertion about as dubious as that one bloke who swears black and blue that his friend had his account restricted for unlocking a game early via VPN, especially as, much like him, you're the only person making it (and due to a friend's insistence, no less).
Not sure how many people remember but Denuvo was already bypassed for Inside during it's launch period or early days because of some bug with Steam, i am not sure but i remember seeing a thread in neogaf or reddit. Also Denuvo has been cracked Inside for a few months now. So not sure how much of a benefit it is for the devs to still have denuvo on if it is already been cracked for the particular game.
There's no need for Denuvo on PS4. PS4 is ground up built to be closed platform, heavily DRM protected platform. It protects publishers from you far better than Denuvo ever will.
PC on other hand is built to be open, and games can't trust that platform is "secure".
Yeah, there's no benefit and removing gave positive PR, so win-win.
dr_rus
Member
So in other words PS4 have a security layer which is far more advanced than Denuvo most likely.