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Internet calls Fat Girl 'Fat' and this is her response...
- Thread starter somuchwater
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Jason's Ultimatum
Member
You're welcome. If you need training tips to achieve my physique, then let me know. I'd be happy to oblige.
Well if you define exercise as "things that hurt and make you skinny" then I suppose I can't really argue with that.
That said I think that if you really are trying to be in better physical fitness, finding activities that you enjoy is more productive than doing activities you hate. When you're heavier, even things you might otherwise enjoy suck, I agree, but once you're used to it it doesn't have to stay hard and punishing.
I actually agree with a lot of what Zefah was saying about making lifestyle choices and not binge diet/exercising if you really want to lose weight. It's mainly his superiority complex and overly optimistic idea of how easy it is to maintain a major lifestyle change that bothers me. As if most people can just flick a switch in their head and never crave refined sugar again, even in times of stress and pain.
I've seen his pics. He's pretty cut.
Exactly, this is very specifically the issue. No one disagrees what a healthy lifestyle entails. But pretending there is but one cause for why some people don't adopt this lifestyle is silly.
D
Deleted member 12837
Unconfirmed Member
Ugh, that doesn't address my question at all.
Look, if someone isn't interested at all in maintaining their health and survival, then I don't really know what else to say.
Also, dinner, really? Is deciding what to eat really a vastly complicated scenario? Really?
Well we could down this road. I'll ask:
"What are these complicated factors that prevent someone from exercising 3 times a week for 45 minutes, and making small, slow but steady lifestyle/diet changes like Keavy_Rain did? This won't work for everyone, but it will go a long way for a lot of people at the very least as a starting point. If you're able to do this and are still struggling with obesity and no progress towards better health, then I concede the discussion changes. The people I call lazy and weak are the people that won't even attempt what I just described."
Then we'll start arguing in circles about why this and that are or aren't actually difficult for people to do, with the same arguments that we've been having.
Call it a cop out if you want, but I'm not interested in going down that route (or spending much more time going back and forth in this topic). So I'll leave it at that.
D
Deleted member 12837
Unconfirmed Member
"Oh no, I got dealt some bad cards. I guess I need to quit entirely. There's nothing I can do at all to even start making this slightly better over any period of time."
Of course. Where do they live and what's available? What do they like? That one there could result itself in pages of analysis. The foods they grew up with, the regional influences, on and on. If humans were so easy to model we'd have much better video game AI.
It often isn't a matter of being interested or not. And even if it is, what is the cause of their disinterest? That's not an easy question I can assure you.
That you can imagine no reason to not try all of those things suggests you are a privileged person, relatively speaking. There's nothing wrong with that of course, but just don't forget what your perspective is and why it may not apply to other people whose situations you can't relate to.
Your tendency toward simplicity really isn't serving you well.
There is a direct statistical correlation between obesity and preventable, expensive chronic health care conditions. Want to know why healthcare costs so much? A huge chunk of that has to do with health care of the obese and the diabetic. It's just reality.
It should work just like insurance does. If I have 7 speeding tickets, clearly I'm someone who is a risk on the road... Thus I pay more. If I have a BMI of 40, clearly I'm someone who is at more at risk for diabetes and heart problems. I've also been a proponent of a tax break to those who prioritize going to the gym and making healthy lifestyle choices...
As a society we need to do something to curtail our weight and unhealthy choices. Maybe something like this can start it.
Well if you define exercise as "things that hurt and make you skinny" then I suppose I can't really argue with that.
That said I think that if you really are trying to be in better physical fitness, finding activities that you enjoy is more productive than doing activities you hate. When you're heavier, even things you might otherwise enjoy suck, I agree, but once you're used to it it doesn't have to stay hard and punishing.
I actually agree with a lot of what Zefah was saying about making lifestyle choices and not binge diet/exercising if you really want to lose weight. It's mainly his superiority complex and overly optimistic idea of how easy it is to maintain a major lifestyle change that bothers me. As if most people can just flick a switch in their head and never crave refined sugar again, even in times of stress and pain.
Hey, putting on muscle mass hurts too!
Definitely agree with making fitness/health a lifestyle choice rather than an event in your life.
D
Deleted member 12837
Unconfirmed Member
Wanting to lose weight but being unwilling to try healthy foods because they aren't "your favorite" or "foods you grew up with" isn't exactly a great argument...
Fair, I guess? I've never been described that way (relatively) before, so not really sure how to respond.
People have habits of overcomplicating things for no reason. Also, I was also being just a tad facetious there, if you couldn't tell.
That wasn't an argument. Context. You asked if making a decision about dinner was truly a complicated process. That's the question I was answering.
No argument here. In this case though one of us is clearly over simplifying, not over complicating.
The Technomancer
card-carrying scientician
If its an easy fix then how do you explain relapse statistics, even among people with professional weight loss help? Do all of the weight-loss counselors out there not know how easy reinforcement problems are to fix? This is my honest question to you: if its so simple, then why do we have a problem?
My position, all along, is that obesity is a complex problem involving many factors including environment, culture, personal responsibility and a dash of genetics. I'm not actually that strongly in the genetics camp, I think its far more about environment and culture.
Devolution
Member
I know you're asking him but the answer is that it's not as easy as those who profess it to be so are willing to admit. It takes a whole change of lifestyle from how you eat, what you eat, your daily activities, brain chemistry, how you reward yourself, how you go to work, how you sleep, how you deal with temptation. It's a difficult process, especially if you were never taught these things and born into a situation where you didn't establish a healthy lifestyle/method of eating in the first place.
D
Deleted member 12837
Unconfirmed Member
Ah, I misunderstood what you were addressing.
In that case, I'm still quite surprised that you believe those dinner related "questions" you brought up, or any combination of them, compose a "vastly complicated" scenario. They all sound relatively straightforward and simple to me.
That's a matter of opinion.
There's an unhealthy amount of misinformation about health and fitness out there.
Solutions are created as a product for profit instead of a lifestyle for society, and then they leave the uninitiated out to hang when they reach their first goal and treat it as the final destination.
We have things like the biggest loser where they hide the rest of the hard work needed an focus on the antics like climbing a steep wall.
We have media misrepresenting and simplifying data findings instead of focusing on their actual value (egg yolks are bad! egg yolks are good!)
The Technomancer
card-carrying scientician
Yup, see my edit, I agree with everything you say here.
I do! The number of factors that go into that decision, almost all of them completely unconsciously so, is really very interesting. Don't think when I say factors I only mean thoughts a person has while making the decision. Of course a person doesn't sit down and go over what they ate as a child to come up with their grocery list, but it's certainly an influence regardless of whether the person consciously acknowledges it at the time or not!
D
Deleted member 17706
Unconfirmed Member
I hate the bootstraps argument as much as anyone who isn't an asshole.
I do believe there is a super easy panacea that just works. I'm certain there is, actually.
However, I do recognize that a bit of a leap of faith is required to get started down the right path.
Well if you define exercise as "things that hurt and make you skinny" then I suppose I can't really argue with that.
That said I think that if you really are trying to be in better physical fitness, finding activities that you enjoy is more productive than doing activities you hate. When you're heavier, even things you might otherwise enjoy suck, I agree, but once you're used to it it doesn't have to stay hard and punishing.
I actually agree with a lot of what Zefah was saying about making lifestyle choices and not binge diet/exercising if you really want to lose weight. It's mainly his superiority complex and overly optimistic idea of how easy it is to maintain a major lifestyle change that bothers me. As if most people can just flick a switch in their head and never crave refined sugar again, even in times of stress and pain.
I'm sorry that I gave the impression of having a superiority complex. I don't think I'm necessarily better than anyone simply because they are fat. I didn't think I was better or worse than anyone when I was fat, either. However, I do think that everyone *can* easily achieve a healthy weight and keep it easily. The key is that they have to want it and prioritize it. It doesn't require strenuous exercise or a starvation-based diet, either. It just requires a desire to get healthy and a willingness to change what you eat.
I guess I just get frustrated when people offer up nothing but excuses (no time, busy life, etc. etc.)
D
Deleted member 17706
Unconfirmed Member
Because its an easy fix compared to other behavioral methods.
Old habits die hard. That's most likely why you see the relapse.
"well, I hit my goal so a little soda here is ok"
I can handle a couple days of soda
Oh shit I'm back on soda every day
Oh shit the weight is back.
Also when you've been fat it's easier to get fat again. Something about human fat cells sticking around compared to other animals, but that could all just be BS.
I recall reading a study about fat cells replicating after reaching their limits allowing easier storage of excess fat. That combined with iirc fat cells not having a normal life cycle is a bad combination for people who were obese during childhood (where the initial fat cell numbers are normally determined).
Can't seem to be able dig up the study though. =/
Keavy_Rain
Member
No offense meant here, but I live in a world where soda, candy, fast food, and cookies exist. I can't ignore them completely and I've developed a taste for them. Denying myself of these things drove me insane, but learning to stop at three Oreo's or just having a soda and a bottle of water instead of two sodas or splitting my 10 piece order of McDonald's chicken nuggets into two five-piece snacks has helped.
Would I be even healthier without that stuff? Of course, but I would be miserable and more likely to gorge myself. It's all about moderation.
Hell, I have a pack of double-stuffed Oreo's sitting next to me. Old me would have eaten that whole pack in two days with a half-gallon of whole milk. New me has had that pack there, unopened, for a week. They could expire before I eat one and I'm OK with that.
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Deleted member 17706
Unconfirmed Member
Would any amount of people be enough for you? You obviously don't agree with what I'm saying in principle.
I don't believe that those of us who have found easy success are in any way special. We just employed a method that works better than other methods.
I think it's great you're able to moderate, but most people I know wouldn't have the willpower to just abstain from consuming the bad foods they keep around them.
I'm curious what you consider a "healthy alternative".
Have you ever tried something like blueberries in heavy cream as a replacement for sweets? There are a lot of "good" options out there that can hit that craving for sweet and fat.
I'm curious as to what you consider a "healthy alternative".
For you. Your insistence that it must work for everyone, and the only reason it wouldn't is because they didn't try, is really silly.
D
Deleted member 17706
Unconfirmed Member
I don't know why you're speaking as if it's a lost cause. It's not that they didn't try, it's that they haven't tried yet.
I do believe that it will work for everyone. Why? Because being obese is abnormal. It's not the natural state of our bodies. If you identify and eliminate the foods that cause obesity, you will eliminate any chance of becoming (or remaining) obese.
The solution is to have one, maybe two cheat meals a week. That way, your other 19 meals are healthy.
Natural is a pretty loaded word here.
Devolution
Member
The terms natural and unnatural in the context of human behavior are pretty flawed.
Obesity is abnormal in a first world society with plentiful access to nutrients and sustenance.
Devolution
Member
First world society that pumps hormones and HFCS into foods and makes fast food readily available and cheap?
Yes, the one where people aren't starving and have access to alternatives.
Sometimes in those very same fast food houses of hell!
D
Deleted member 17706
Unconfirmed Member
You're taking issue with my usage of the word "natural" now? Are some of you simply here to argue for the sake of it?
Devolution
Member
Simply here to take umbrage with the use of natural and unnatural in general since it's a pet peeve of mine. Do you think it's natural to genetically modify foods? Use HFCS? Do you think agriculture itself is a "natural" process? Or that our sedentary lifestyle is natural to humans?
LowEndTorque
Member
Surely you don't mean "healthy" fast food options like Subway where there are chemical preservatives in the bread, food coloring and chemical preservatives in some of the veggies, processed cheese, and all the meat is processed and loaded with preservatives?
Relatively speaking to the "unhealthy options" available, of course.
But the organic food debate is very far removed from the obesity food debate.
LowEndTorque
Member
I don't think it is far removed at all.
Given that the relatively "recent" epidemic of obesity rates seem to be increasing on a parallel tangent right along with the increased use of hormones, processed foods and other various types of tampering/mass production methods and the widespread consumption of these types of foods, it's really not a stretch to imagine that there might be a connection between the two, however big or small.
Trent Strong
Banned
Since when do chemical preservatives cause weight gain?
Trent Strong
Banned
It's normal for people to eat a ton of food if they have the chance, because for most of our evolutionary history food was hard to come by, and people had to endure long streches of not getting enough food. So in a world with plentiy of calorie rich food everywhere, obesity is normal and should be expected.
LowEndTorque
Member
Nobody claimed they did.
But they significantly increase your risk of cancer and are very bad for your health just like being overweight is. That is, after all, the reason you guys hate fat people - because they're unhealthy, right? Or is it about body image now?
Trent Strong
Banned
I don't hate fat people. I just think it's a bad idea to tell overweight people that being overweight isn't their fault, and is totally out of their control, and that there is nothing they can do to change. Making people feel powerless doesn't help them. (I'm not saying you're making claims like this, I haven't read the whole thread. But some people do seem to be making claims like these.)
That's true, and it's probably a small component to the obesity epidemic but I don't think it carries as much weight when talking about changes that people can do right now to stop being or becoming obese. The overall shift back to more natural(theres that word again!) foods is part of it, I agree.
If you want to ignore the societal component of human life, sure. By that logic, we could go back to calling homosexuals abnormal because sexual drive is meant for procreation.
charlequin
Banned
The problem with the hammer of behavioralism is that when people find out about it they run around thinking everybody else in the world is a nail they need to whack into place.
Family studies show that there's an extremely high correlation between people's weight and the weight of their parents. In addition, twin studies show that much of the correlation is maintained between children raised in separate families and with distinct diets.
I can see from your post that you're very invested in intolerance on this subject, but you can't just wish away physiological realities because they're inconvenient for you. Long-term weight-loss of greater than about 15% is statistically almost non-existent.
It is, factually speaking, difficult to keep weight off. Almost all people showing significant weight loss measured over a one-year period regress at least partially over a 2 or 5-year window. The energy output required to maintain a 160 pound weight for someone who slimmed from 240 is much greater than from someone who's been 160 their entire adult life.
I definitely wish you the best of luck, but just about everyone involved in weight loss will tell you that year two is way, way harder than year one.
The "complicated factors" are mostly that people only have so much willpower and energy in their lives and implementing these kinds of lifestyle changes often use up more than people have available after dealing with work, money, family, etc.
And secondly, the result for most people who make these changes will be that they feel physically better, they have more strength and endurance, they can expect to live longer... and they don't lose more than 15% or so of their peak weight.
charlequin
Banned
This is exactly the kind of square-peg approach that it leads to, though! Forget physiology, forget long-term measured outcomes, forget any serious investigation of how personal agency interacts with systemic effects here. Just swat fatties on the nose with a newspaper, that'll larn 'em!
Have fun with that.
Keavy_Rain
Member
This is why the slow change method has worked for me so far. It may not be for everyone, but it should be an option on the table.
In the end, I don't think it's the numbers on the scale or the size of my clothes as much as it is "I don't want to suffer at the end." All I want out of life is a peaceful departure.
Do you know anything about behavioral theory? I'm guessing not from that post above. My job mostly involes collecting and analyzing data.
And if you can't back up your broad claims how genetics play such a big role, then why should anyone listen to you? Because cracked put out an article?
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