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[entremet]

I watched My Geisha with my ex girlfriend who was Japanese. While that's an old movie with definite old timey orientalism... But the actual act of a white person dressing like a geisha is, if anything, "kawaii".

Let's ask the Americans in here: would you honestly be offended if anyone in the world dressed like a cowboy?

Sure. I don't see it as racist myself personally. I'm just stating that because it's really the only valid way to answer the OP's question. If the OP really wants to go the extra mile.

Asking non-Japanese would not give him or her the full story.

 

[Staccat0]

is he a white man? because of historical contexts there are situations which are looked at differently. a white man wearing an indian headdress has a different socio-cultural implication than a black lady wearing a geisha get up during halloween, more so since halloween is celebrated by being in costume.

I don't honestly think any of that matters in that case. Using the holiday of Halloween as an excuse feels like an arbitrary "tradition" argument.

That said, I also don't care that much. It just logically, seems fucked-up to me to let "welll that's just what we do when we x" facotr in, but I don't have any emotions about it.

 

[YesNOnoNOYes]

Idk.Depends on context? If its done to make fun or fetishize the culture or practice. I guess it can be a bit ????

but in the context in the OP, no, I dont think so.

 

[BocoDragon]

Sure. I don't see it as racist myself personally. I'm just stating that because it's really the only valid way to answer the OP's question. If the OP really wants to go the extra mile.

Asking non-Japanese would not give him or her the full story.

I'm tempted to say "I know what the answer would be" because I've spent so much time with roots in their culture, but of course I cannot.

I'll just say that I believe most would think "cute" or "funny" or "whatever" before they ever thought to be offended.

I don't think cultures emulating one another is any kind of problem. It might be the case that for cultures who have issues with one another, it might be a problem. But that's because of the underlying conflict or power imbalance, not the act of emulation in itself.

Israeli dressing as Palestinian? White American dressing as Trayvon Martin? Eh. Maybe not. Otherwise it's fine.

 

[HORRORSHØW]

I don't honestly think any of that matters in that case. Using the holiday of Halloween as an excuse feels like an arbitrary "tradition" argument.

That said, I also don't care that much. It just logically, seems fucked-up to me to let "welll that's just what we do when we x" facotr in, but I don't have any emotions about it.

okay. take halloween and football games out of the equation. you're still missing the historical implications of a white man wearing an indian headdress. a black lady dressing up as a geisha might seem odd, and perhaps racist, but seeing a white man with a headdress leaves little doubt, even if it isn't intentional because there are historical implications attached to it.

 

[RatskyWatsky]

French people walk like this

Just what, exactly, are you insinuating?

Having to ask that just took you down to 25%.

I feel like you're the type of guy who would come over to my house for some beers only to expect me to provide all the beers myself.

 

[Lord_Balkan]

okay. take halloween and football games out of the equation. you're still missing the historical implications of a white man wearing an indian headdress. a black lady dressing up as a geisha might seem odd, and perhaps racist, but seeing a white man with a headdress leaves little doubt, even if it isn't intentional because there are historical implications attached to it.

Why just white man? Don't you mean white american man?

 

[DJKhaled]

man, some people are way too sensitive.

 

[milquetoast]

this thread made me realize that 'It's a culture not a costume' campaign wasn't done this year. They'd been doing them the past couple years I remember.

 

[Nudull]

Well Japan ain't small or oppressed, so case closed here.

I can see being careful about black, native or perhaps Mexican symbols in America, though.

Um, no. This concerns all non-white races and cultures.

Let's ask the Americans in here: would you honestly be offended if anyone in the world dressed like a cowboy?

You wouldn't have to ask that question if the predominantly white culture within America wasn't the dominant force that it is.

 

[Saintguine]

I honestly still don't get why a geisha costume is racist. I'm Chinese and if I see someone dress up in Chinese armour, Manchu robes or dress like the Kangxi Emperor or Qin Shi Huang I'd be personally admiring the handiwork put into the costume and I'll have an assumption that the person has an interest in Chinese culture because there are many other things that they could have dressed up as like pop-culture figures but they chose historical dress.

 

[The Faceless Master]

Why just white man? Don't you mean white american man?

you mean British right?

 

[Aaron-Lagann]

I feel like you're the type of guy who would come over to my house for some beers only to expect me to provide all the beers myself.

You can provide the beer, I'll bring the bourbon and cider.

 

[Massive Duck. C.M.]

Honestly, I'd need to see a picture.

If this was actually something that looked like it had time and effort put into it it'd be fine, but who knows

 

[Ties]

Quite a few people had issue with a white woman doing cosplay in which she used makeup to darken her skin. While I don't think it is racist because it doesn't fit into the definition of racist

Spoiler

believing one race is better/worse than another

someone will probably not be happy about it.

not you pulling a dictionary definition for something completely unrelated to the thread at hand

girl gone

also no as long as its done tastefully

edit: nvm i did more research on the topic and its kind of dumb/insensitive/stupid

just don't do it

 

[BocoDragon]

this thread made me realize that 'It's a culture not a costume' campaign wasn't done this year. They'd been doing them the past couple years I remember.

It just smacks to me of unintentionally being racist through a well-meaning liberal intention to fight racism.

So Americans can't dress like Japanese characters without being racist towards Asians? Think of how racist that actually is.

i think we put a taboo on blackface due to its racist history. It's tainted like the swastika - it wasn't inherantly wrong, but it reminds us of its use in a terrible way. And then to be fair and liberal, we actually said its about not having any ethnic representations in dress. I think we drifted off the road with the intention of the taboo....

 

[RatskyWatsky]

You can provide the beer, I'll bring the bourbon and cider.

Sounds good! Is gluten free beer okay?

 

[BocoDragon]

Um, no. This concerns all non-white races and cultures.



You wouldn't have to ask that question if the predominantly white culture within America wasn't the dominant force that it is.

Japanese are not an oppressed minority in America. And they are not a disadvantaged country economically, politically, culturally, etc.

Making this about "non-white people" is racist. I think it's reasonable when it comes to white-black relations, or white-native relations... But whites and all-non white peoples? Japanese are power players on the world stage. I've lived with them... They don't feel second class anything. I don't buy it.

Whites can dress like geishas. Japanese can dress like cowboys. I promise you no one is offended unless they are told to be by an ideological fringe.

 

[Aaron-Lagann]

Sounds good! Is gluten free beer okay?

I have absolutely no clue what the difference is. Not a beer fan.

 

[Loofy]

this thread made me realize that 'It's a culture not a costume' campaign wasn't done this year. They'd been doing them the past couple years I remember.

I bet this campaign was made by a white person and that girl in the photo isnt even japanese.

 

[Saintguine]

I bet this campaign was made by a white person and that girl in the photo isnt even japanese.

No one is placing bets on whether the sky is blue or whether fire is hot.

 

[plasmawave]

 

[Artofwar420]

I don't think it's intentionally racist, I just think it would be weird.

 

[Ties]

Whites can dress like geishas. Japanese can dress like cowboys. I promise you no one is offended unless they are told to be by an ideological fringe.

girl gone

cowboys are not exclusive to american culture

 

[BocoDragon]

girl gone

cowboys are not just an american phenomenon

American cowboys and their style are.

Or "Japanese can dress like Uncle Sam/American soldiers/the founding fathers" then, whatever

I bet this campaign was made by a white person and that girl in the photo isnt even japanese.

Yeah no kidding.

 

[Xyrmellon]

I appreciate the responses. And yes, I know they whitened their faces but my point was that she put no thought into it and the makeup was bad.

 

[bobawesome]

Pasty white makeup smeared all over her face. Even as a white male it made me a little uncomfortable. The girl is African-American, so I even felt she should be more sensitive to this issue.

 

[thetrin]

Ask a native Japanese. They're the only ones that can answer that question sincerely.

Considering the general insensitivity to racial stereotypes in Japan, I doubt anyone would have an issue.

 

[Deleted member 1235]

everything is racist

 

[Alx]

It's cutural appropiation, which in and of itself is potentially racist (and is insensitive, at best).

First time I've ever heard of cultural appropriation being fundamentally wrong (besides the fact that in that case it isn't cultural appropriations). Most cultures evolve by including elements of other cultures, without cultural appropriation there would be no spaghetti, no jazz, no Hamlet or Lord of the Rings, no French baguette, coffee or chocolate, no chess, no mathematics... Most of the words we use were forged by another culture.

 

[CHusson91]

I work in Japan and just asked a few students about their thoughts on the issue. None of them understood why it would be considered racist.

 

[Ties]

First time I've ever heard of cultural appropriation being fundamentally wrong (besides the fact that in that case it isn't cultural appropriations). Most cultures evolve by including elements of other cultures, without cultural appropriation there would be no spaghetti, no jazz, no Hamlet or Lord of the Rings, no French baguette, coffee or chocolate, no chess, no mathematics... Most of the words we use were forged by another culture.

you are talking about cultural exchange not cultural appropriation

 

[plasmawave]

Someone should make a poster saying "white people don't speak for my race".

 

[Enkidu]

Cultural appropiation always confuses me. Is Marvel's Thor cultural appropriation? Is it cultural appropriation to dress up as Hercules?

 

[Saintguine]

Someone should make a poster saying "white people don't speak for my race".

I definitely agree with this notion.

East Asian people don't need people to be offended on our behalf and we don't need white people to be lecturing us about how we should be offended and what we should be offended about. In fact, if I was to go a bit further I consider white people telling us how and what we should be offended about racist because it gives me the feeling that certain people think East Asians as a people are too primitive and stupid to formulate their own opinions and feelings about aspects of life and requires the white vanguard to show them the light and the "right way".

 

[Ties]

I definitely agree with this notion.

East Asian people don't need people to be offended on our behalf and we don't need white people to be lecturing us about how we should be offended and what we should be offended about.

hi I'm asian

 

[RatskyWatsky]

I have absolutely no clue what the difference is. Not a beer fan.

Thank god, me neither.

 

[Ayumi]

Just for the record,

The people who usually think these kind of things are racist, aren't Japanese and often not even Asian.

Avril's video? Japan doesn't care.
Geisha costume? Wear it in Japan and people might even ask to get your photo taken.

 

[AlexBasch]

No, but I bet you some white liberal will decide it is, and make a "this is not okay" blog post on upworthy.

Or the tumblr way of:


THIS *gifs of Supernatural or Dr. Who
YOU MUST REBLOG THIS
SIGNAL BOOST THE SHIT OUT OF THIS
FUCKING WHITE PEOPLE

Then another gif.

And yeah, white people trying to lecture others about what you should be offended.

Apparently as a mexican I should be burning in rage about people worldwide using a sugar skull make up or whatever. Except I'm not, because people aren't racist with it and they found it cool, it'd be cooler if they knew the actual origin or significance of it, but I won't label them as bad people.

But who are offended, angry and whatnot? Americans. And white people. Holy shit, my sides.

 

[Saintguine]

hi I'm asian

Cool, you have the right to be offended but don't think your views are universal. Also note that people may just have a fascination with East Asian culture and aren't out to mock people.

 

[Deified Data]

It's like blackface but without the negative connotations. Not that a lack of negative connotations have stopped people from being offended before.

Good rule of thumb: Behave however the fuck you want. If someone tells you your behavior is disturbing or offensive to them, take their concern into consideration and act accordingly. If you don't care what they think of you, stay the course. If you do care, change the behavior.

There doesn't need to be this massive codex of offensive things to reference and ask "is this offensive?" Just utilize common sense in a contextual basis. Boom. You'll be fine.

 

[OpinionatedCyborg]

There's no problem as long as she pulls it off with the grace and sublety as Mickey Rooney or Sean Connery.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PM7HQjIcc08
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Lapak02ct3E#t=8m46s

 

[Ayumi]

By the way, if you ever come to Japan, you can often find this "foreign face" mask in the funny/toy section of costume departments:

 

[Ties]

There's no problem as long as she pulls it off with the grace and sublety as Mickey Rooney or Sean Connery.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PM7HQjIcc08
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Lapak02ct3E#t=8m46s

dont hold back

 

[Lord_Balkan]

you are talking about cultural exchange not cultural appropriation

It wasn't cultural exchange when the Ottomans conquered the Balkans or Alexander The Great conquered the middle east or when the British went to India and China.

 

[Massive Duck. C.M.]

One of the things that surprises white people who come to Japan is the amount of caricatures and casual racism.

I've seen young teachers break down and cry

 

[Ties]

It wasn't cultural exchange when the Ottomans conquered the Balkans or Alexander The Great conquered the middle east or when the British went to India and China.

um yeah and thats the history of why the term cultural appropriation was coined to begin with

 

[AlexBasch]

There doesn't need to be this massive codex of offensive things to reference and ask "is this offensive?" Just utilize common sense in a contextual basis. Boom. You'll be fine.

Nah, gotta ask GAF instead of using my goddamn brain.

By the way, if you ever come to Japan, you can often find this "foreign face" mask in the funny/toy section of costume departments:

I could use one of those eyelids stickers (if that's what they are) for my costume tomorrow, somehow you just gave me an idea.

 

[BBQMan]

Its about as racist as the Walking Dead Cosplay. If you are offended by a Geisha costume you have a serious problem.

 

[BocoDragon]

Or the tumblr way of:


THIS *gifs of Supernatural or Dr. Who
YOU MUST REBLOG THIS
SIGNAL BOOST THE SHIT OUT OF THIS
FUCKING WHITE PEOPLE

Then another gif.

And yeah, white people trying to lecture others about what you should be offended.

Apparently as a mexican I should be burning in rage about people worldwide using a sugar skull make up or whatever. Except I'm not, because people aren't racist with it and they found it cool, it'd be cooler if they knew the actual origin or significance of it, but I won't label them as bad people.

But who are offended, angry and whatnot? Americans. And white people. Holy shit, my sides.

I think it's that white Americans had to learn a few coping lessons to be liberal people in the face of American race issues... but if these lessons are imperfectly learned, they actually lead to more unintentional racism.

Blackface has a dark past in America, and white people should strive to avoid invoking it. But if the lesson they internalize is "it's always wrong to depict one's self as a member of another race", they didn't even realize the lesson they were supposed to have learned about being sensitive to others.

It wasn't white people dressing as black people that was the issue. It was the mocking of blacks while they did it.

If a geisha costume is about showing how stupid and lesser Japanese people are... that would be an issue! But just dressing geisha, especially when there is no animosity between the dresser and the people being depicted (and by the grace of god after the history of WWII, there by and large is not animosity between Americans and Japanese) - that's no problem.

It's like blackface but without the negative connotations. Not that a lack of negative connotations have stopped people from being offended before.

Good rule of thumb: Behave however the fuck you want. If someone tells you your behavior is disturbing or offensive to them, take their concern into consideration and act accordingly. If you don't care what they think of you, stay the course. If you do care, change the behavior.

There doesn't need to be this massive codex of offensive things to reference and ask "is this offensive?" Just utilize common sense in a contextual basis. Boom. You'll be fine.

This is a pretty fair way to put it. If there's a reason to be sensitive, then strive to be sensitive.