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[Relaxed Muscle]

It's actually plausible they have already, or just did something like having multiple solutions, and we just haven't heard about it.

If that was an issue though it may have added some months on to development which would help explain the dead silence.

I'm hoping they have a CEDEC presentation on Panta Rhei this year again so we can get an update on how things are going.

That's true. It's a shame, Capcom was the japanese studio that did the most swift transition to last gen, now everyone of them is a mess.

(Well, there's From Software, but their so far ahead of the curve in the japanese console ecosystem...)

 

[RoboPlato]

Should have just stuck with MT Framework. I'm going to miss rock solid PC ports from them.

That's another wierd part of them building a new engine from scratch, MT Framework would probably work really well on PS4/XBO given the architecture.

 

[RobRSG]

I wonder what they were thinking by the time that Dead Rising 3 was released.

 

[NathanS]

To be fair to Capcom, they've never been invested to the same extent in the multi-platform annualized franchise conveyer-belt that those 3 publishers have.
.

Because they classically focused on a single platform annualized franchise conveyer-belt. That they haven't been able to do it across multi-platforms is probably less a case of "different goals" and more "We're trying and failing to."

 

[kuYuri]

I'm starting to believe it as well Niro. I've been telling myself this whole year "when will Capcom announce some significant current gen console games?" All we know of is Deep Down. Not even a new Resident Evil.

Capcom did an annual report in which they said they wanted to reduce time between sequels.

http://www.eurogamer.net/articles/2...-between-sequels-so-is-shortening-development

Among the multitude of major titles held by Capcom - such as Monster Hunter, Street Fighter, Resident Evil, Devil May Cry, Lost Planet, Dead Rising and many others - we will promote shortening of the sales cycle in pursuit of further earnings stabilisation and growth.

Alright, so now is the time to actually show that you mean it Capcom.

 

[eyeball_kid]

About Deep Down, I think we’ll give full fledged information to everyone after the summer, so you may have to wait for a little while beyond the launch [of PS4] on February 22nd.

Since we don’t want to risk to be told “This could have been done on PS3!”, we want to finish a game that fully uses the PS4 hardware specs.

Actually really happy to hear that they're taking their time with Deep Down, vs. rushing it out to meet an internal deadline.

 

[JordanN]

Probably having trouble downgrading it to fit the weaker than expected consoles. The JP studios were apparently expecting GTX680 class GPU's based on the Agnes Philosophy and the panty raid unveils. Even Epic is apparently struggling with this based on the lack of UE4.

Eh... no?

They've been working on a PC game (Fortnite) and they have a shooter game ready for PS4/XBO since April but was going through certification. Besides Epic, UE4 is already being used by third party developers on the consoles (Rime, Tekken, Fable Legends).

Doesn't Driveclub use a full global illumination solution?

Fable Legends also has it and the tech has been integrated into the actual engine with improvements.

 

[JeffGrubb]

I'd like to start by noting you're taking a publisher and comparing them to individual developers, but I'll humor this anyway.

Part of this is a the overall silence of Capcom and lack of announcements of games built on top of their engine that's going to power all their major PS4/XB1 titles.

If the issue here was just Deep Down, I wouldn't ask a question. They also themselves stated there were issues.


Well, that game lost its two creative leads, and the one guy we knew was in the game isn't anymore, so I feel we know why it's taking a while.


We're getting a beta for Halo 5 in December and releasing some kind of Halo 2 multiplayer upgrade on what they describe as "an Xbox One engine", but I'm not sure if that's actually the same one they're using for Halo 5. That said, for one studio, that would still be more games than Capcom.


I don't think there's much praise for their technology.


Dragon Age: Inquisition releases in November and has lots of footage. It has not mysteriously disappeared. They've also shown off snippets of three other games on the same engine, though it's clear they're pretty early.


The studio was downsized to 17 people while the rest of the staff shipped Need For Speed: Rivals at launch on the engine they're using this generation.


They do take quite a while to launch games. However, I don't think they've made any statements about tech issues.


I didn't state anything about other Japanese developers. Do you feel there are notable issues with other ones that made this pop to your mind?

 

[staticneuron]

A couple of things. Is Panta Rhei a new engine or is it built on top of MT Framework. If it is a new engine then I wouldn't imagine this should be worried if they are not showing something within a year.

Iirc the first game to use MT framework was Dead Rising. That would mean that work on MT started at least two years before that title was released. Who knows what they are up to now but it seems to be more speculation than hard evidence about any troubles.

 

[Robot Pants]

But Ground Zeroes runs fantastic...

Nice. I understood this reference

 

[Triggerhappytel]

The funny thing is that MT Framework seems to have been a really capable engine, so why scrap it for a new one? It was used in Resi 5 & 6, Dragon's Dogma, Dead Rising 1 & 2, Devil May Cry 4, Lost Planet 1 & 2, Marvel vs. Capcom 3 and Monster Hunter 3. That's an incredibly diverse spread of games and they're all technically impressive. So what logic is there in getting rid of this one and building another?

 

[JohnGrimm]

So what logic is there in getting rid of this one and building another?

They wanted to shorten development time and push out sequels faster.

 

[HK-47]

I think one of the issues might be the lighting.

They use a similar lighting scheme to the one Epic abandoned for Unreal Engine 4 because it only works in small enclosed environments.

Notably, Deep Down takes place entirely in small rooms, so if they want to make a game with a large environment it might be a huge issue for them.

That sounds like really poor planning.

 

[qa_engineer]

Those two comments don't really say much. Capcom is fine, it's not like this engine was developed 6 months ago.

 

[HK-47]

The funny thing is that MT Framework seems to have been a really capable engine, so why scrap it for a new one? It was used in Resi 5 & 6, Dragon's Dogma, Dead Rising 1 & 2, Devil May Cry 4, Lost Planet 1 & 2, Marvel vs. Capcom 3 and Monster Hunter 3. That's an incredibly diverse spread of games and they're all technically impressive. So what logic is there in getting rid of this one and building another?

Lost Planet 3 didnt use MT?

 

[GuardianE]

Lost Planet 3 didnt use MT?

Nah. No Western outsourced title was MT Framework.

 

[OmegaSmash]

Nah. No Western outsourced title was MT Framework.

I think that DmC was supposed to be the first western developed game to use MT Frameworks, but Ninja Theory declined to use it since they were more familiar with UE3.

 

[Subaru]

People usually says that western engines aren't good for japanese companies because its documentation are in english.

I find this very strange, because I have this feeling that EVERYTHING is in english and, well, if you don't now english nowadays, it's hard to keep up with IT stuff.

I mean it, it's not a prerequisite for IT jobs to read documentation in english in Japan? It is here (Brazil).

I'm not saying my english is good, I have trouble to speak and to write in english but I can read well - and I never had any english education. Sure, I had to learn to play videogames - and Japan is a very advanced country in techs, so I understand that they are indeed used to japanese documentation. But it's really strange to think that at least the IT guys should have some english reading skills?

I mean it, of course that this could not be the problem, but I've heard this argument many times already.

 

[Wishmaster92]

Given what we know about how high this engine scales (basically using SVOGI and real time fluid sims)... I would not doubt that they are having trouble getting it work well on PS4.

I mean.. most of the screens they released were NATIVE 720p. I think that says something.

And 60fps....idk what they were thinking if they're running into problems.

 

[DedValve]

I think that DmC was supposed to be the first western developed game to use MT Frameworks, but Ninja Theory declined to use it since they were more familiar with UE3.

It was more that there was no english documentation for MT framework and DmC wasn't going to happen unless they switched engines.

I hope Phanta Rhei is bilingual from the get go.

 

[DMiz]

It was more that there was no english documentation for MT framework and DmC wasn't going to happen unless they switched engines.

I hope Phanta Rhei is bilingual from the get go.

Actually, I'm surprised that they didn't consider marketing MT Framework out to other companies, considering how badly some companies were suffering trying to build their own tech (*cough*SE*cough*). At least then Japanese developers would have a "Japanese" engine to use that they could use to compete against UE, idTech, etc.

Maybe a pipe dream and the engine wouldn't have been flexible enough for something like that, but it could have been something.

 

[Nikokuno]

MT Framework was just OK, in every way for a PS360 engine, the good part was the easy multiplatform support.

Hope the new engine will looks like a current gen one this time ...

 

[duckroll]

Actually, I'm surprised that they didn't consider marketing MT Framework out to other companies, considering how badly some companies were suffering trying to build their own tech (*cough*SE*cough*). At least then Japanese developers would have a "Japanese" engine to use that they could use to compete against UE, idTech, etc.

Maybe a pipe dream and the engine wouldn't have been flexible enough for something like that, but it could have been something.

There are already a few Japanese engines available for licensing. Just being Japanese doesn't automatically mean you can compete. There's no reason to license an engine just because it's Japanese. Capcom probably didn't have any interest in running an engine licensing business because then they would actually have to be able to support the engine for developers outside of the company. They don't seem capable of doing that. It's one thing to make a tool set that is used within your own company, it's another thing to make a tool set which is universally understood and to provide ongoing support for customers who use it.

 

[Famassu]

I'd say this thread is a bit premature BEFORE TGS. If we don't see RE7, DMC5 and/or other possible bigger announcements at TGS, then we might speculate they are having troubles. Before that... I'd perhaps hold off on the doom & gloom. It's not like a lot of western games haven't suffered lengthy delays, a lot of obvious projects like a new Gears is way behind the kind of development schedule you'd expect it to have (that is, you'd expect it to have been in development for closer to two years now, instead they only begun this year) and only reason western teams seem much more active than Japanese ones are because of cross-gen and PC originated games. Apart from first party and a select 3rd parties (AC, Batman), most PS4Bone multiplatforms still include last generation ports and games like Witcher 3 have been in development for PC from, like, 2010 or 2011. It's relatively easy to have lots of PS4Bone games when they can port possible PC games/versions that they were doing anyway at high/very high-ish settings to PS4Bone and when they can upport PS360 games. Japanese don't do a lot of high end PC stuff and have stupidly done almost none of cross-gen, even stuff that would make sense as one are not.

So.. Yeah, at this point it might be that Japanese devs are just even slower at moving to "next-gen" than western devs have been. If there are no announcements at TGS, then we might be able speculate there are problems but I'd give Capcom the benefit of the doubt until then.

 

[Fattony12000]

In fact, you could say that everything isn't flowing.

Get it?

Three years on and they have no games out that use the engine. This is a Bad Thing.

 

[Famassu]

People usually says that western engines aren't good for japanese companies because its documentation are in english.

I find this very strange, because I have this feeling that EVERYTHING is in english and, well, if you don't now english nowadays, it's hard to keep up with IT stuff.

I mean it, it's not a prerequisite for IT jobs to read documentation in english in Japan? It is here (Brazil).

I'm not saying my english is good, I have trouble to speak and to write in english but I can read well - and I never had any english education. Sure, I had to learn to play videogames - and Japan is a very advanced country in techs, so I understand that they are indeed used to japanese documentation. But it's really strange to think that at least the IT guys should have some english reading skills?

I mean it, of course that this could not be the problem, but I've heard this argument many times already.

I'm pretty sure the problem isn't in the engines being in English, it has/had much more to do that documentation & support was non-existent in and for Japanese. So when a Japanese dev was having trouble with UE3, IIRC, originally they had very little in the form of support from Epic. That might've improved some since then, though.

 

[Jawmuncher]

MT Framework was just OK, in every way for a PS360 engine, the good part was the easy multiplatform support.

Hope the new engine will looks like a current gen one this time ...

Were we playing the same stuff?
DMC4 and RE5 still look pretty good for being such early titles. Especially the PC versions. MT framework took a hit only when they decided lighting was more important.

 

[Benslammin]

It seems a lot of developers made their game too powerful and the ps4 wasn't as powerful as they were expecting.

I dunno.

Maybe all their godlike software engineers left them after the development of MT Framework

 

[DOWN]

MT Framework was just OK, in every way for a PS360 engine, the good part was the easy multiplatform support.

Hope the new engine will looks like a current gen one this time ...

Seriously? Resident Evil 5 looked excellent. One of the more fluid and CGI-like engines of the generation, especially for multiplatform.

 

[enzo_gt]

Seems kind of crazy how bad this could be if they're relying on this engine so much, makes me hesitant to believe that nothing is going into full development unless it's on this engine.

Ono said SFV would use the Panty Raid engine if it was a good fit, and if it wasn't, they'd go with something else. I wonder if they'd just accelerate the development process for that to fill some gaps in their release schedule, but I feel it's more likely they're sticking to their guns and letting everything sit and slow cook. So bizarre.

 

[Razgriz-Specter]

But Ground Zeroes runs fantastic...

You want them to use Konami's Fox Engine?

Amazing lol, gets me every time.

 

[Kamina]

Amazing lol, gets me every time.

I don't get it, can you explain?

 

[Alienous]

Seriously? Resident Evil 5 looked excellent. One of the more fluid and CGI-like engines of the generation, especially for multiplatform.

You get it.

MT Framework was amazing.

 

[Deleted member 30609]

Seriously? Resident Evil 5 looked excellent. One of the more fluid and CGI-like engines of the generation, especially for multiplatform.

One or both of these GIFs are pre-downgrade, to be fair.

 

[ArchedThunder]

If they truly are having the problems that it seems they are it would probably be in their best interest to just license an engine like UE4 and customize it as they see fit. But then again Capcpom isn't known for good business decisions.

 

[Triggerhappytel]

One or both of these GIFs are pre-downgrade, to be fair.

Yeah, I don't recall either scene in the finished game, although regardless it was a looker. Excellent details on the main characters in particular.

 

[GuardianE]

MT Framework was just OK, in every way for a PS360 engine, the good part was the easy multiplatform support.

Hope the new engine will looks like a current gen one this time ...

You're nuts.

 

[Sho_Nuff82]

Is there a reason that they just dumped a workhorse engine in MT framework other than "lol PS3 in HD"? I think RE6 quality assets at 1080p/60fps would have been fine for an introduction to the generation, but I guess they feel otherwise.

Generation transitions have been rough on Japanese devs, amazingly Konami seems to have done it right with the cross gen Fox engine.

 

[Nirolak]

Is there a reason that they just dumped a workhorse engine in MT framework other than "lol PS3 in HD"? I think RE6 quality assets at 1080p/60fps would have been fine for an introduction to the generation, but I guess they feel otherwise.

Generation transitions have been rough on Japanese devs, amazingly Konami seems to have done it right with the cross gen Fox engine.

This is technically MT Framework 3.0 with a new project name, but a very large portion of it has been redone.

The biggest reason was to build a toolset that would allow them to actually make games to next-gen standards without astronomically huge teams due to notably improved development efficiency.

I mean overall this is a great goal and very likely the right decision. It's just that I suspect they're having some growing pains they didn't anticipate getting there, and may be part of the dead silence on the front of other games using the engine.

 

[Brannon]

You know, if they did a Dragon's Dogma remaster, I think people would be more forgiving and be willing to wait a bit longer for Deep Down. The most obvious thing, and it's crazy they haven't done that. They could even stick that excuse of it not being able to be done on PC for some odd reason; PS4 and Xbone are more than enough.

Giving you an out here Capcom, just take it

 

[Man-is-Obsolete]

It never gets talked about a lot, but perhaps the issue at Capcom is as simple as most of their top talent left. Look at Platinum Games output versus Capcom and they are asingle studio. Then you have Mikami's studio making Evil Within with potentially ex Capcom staff. Inafune is no longer there and he has been quite active as well.

People keep expecting games from Capcom, but who there is going to make them? Engine woes only are compounding the issue.

 

[gconsole]

I remember Inafune mention that MT was built on top of original Onimusha 3 engine which base from PS2 era technology. Capcom exec had no idea about it until he shows the demo (with Lost Planet) to them.

Im not surprise if the change to PS4 force them to rebuild it cause of some unupgradable code part.

 

[GuardianE]

It never gets talked about a lot, but perhaps the issue at Capcom is as simple as most of their top talent left. Look at Platinum Games output versus Capcom and they are asingle studio. Then you have Mikami's studio making Evil Within with potentially ex Capcom staff. Inafune is no longer there and he has been quite active as well.

People keep expecting games from Capcom, but who there is going to make them? Engine woes only are compounding the issue.

This is actually constantly a point of discussion with regards to Capcom. In this very thread, even.

They still have people there that know how to make good games. A lot of real headliners left over the years, but they still have Ono, Itsuno, Niitsuma, Takeuchi, Eshiro, Neo_G... they're far from without talent.

 

[CastorTroy]

Capcom literally tripping over their dick into this gen. They have no real announced games, and seemingly have no direction whatsoever at this point.

 

[Famassu]

Generation transitions have been rough on Japanese devs, amazingly Konami seems to have done it right with the cross gen Fox engine.

Well, Konami has been working on the Fox Engine since forever, so it's no surprise it's in such a good shape. I mean, seriously, hasn't it been in the works since ~after MGS4 was released? Capcom might just be late in starting to shift from PS360 onwards.

And generational transitions have been hard for everyone since at least the PS2 days. I mean, even when PS4 is supposedly SOOOOO easy to develop for, Sony's flagship launch title DriveClub was delayed for almost a year, The Order didn't manage to release in 2014, Uncharted seems to be a bit behind schedule, they've cancelled at least 1-2 games this year due to the projects not going anywhere etc. Early-to-mid PS360 generation was absolutely brutal to small to mid sized developers, when even somewhat adequate developers in the past rushed out half-unfinished, unpolished mediocre crap.

The difference often is that Japanese devs seem to try to figure out the problems and release at least somewhat finished products whereas EA pushes out Battlefield 4s that just don't work (i.e. even if FFXIII is what it is and Crystal Tools were ultimate crap, it IS a highly polished game).

Seems kind of crazy how bad this could be if they're relying on this engine so much, makes me hesitant to believe that nothing is going into full development unless it's on this engine.

They could face the same kind of problem Square Enix did last generation. Their flagship titles will be delayed until they get their shit together, meanwhile they might license UE4 for smaller projects & rely on outsourcing.

 

[Man-is-Obsolete]

This is actually constantly a point of discussion with regards to Capcom. In this very thread, even.

They still have people there that know how to make good games. A lot of real headliners left over the years, but they still have Ono, Itsuno, Niitsuma, Takeuchi, Eshiro, Neo_G... they're far from without talent.

Sure, but they had to have a sizable hit to their staff. I'm sure a lot of talent was poached from there as well, when some of the big names left. That is not to say they don't have talent, but rather they just don't have the same level and maybe cannot produce the same output.

 

[Trojan]

Great post, Nirolak...this is really interesting and I wasn't even aware they were using a proprietary engine.

I think it's going to become increasingly rare that developers go the proprietary route for engines in this gen and beyond. It's such a massive resource drain and there are so many options for licensed engines.

 

[dramatis]

True, but it'll be interesting to know if the thing that sinks japanese console development is engine creation.

It also makes me wonder why more japanese developers aren't just jumping on Unreal4 and Crytek now that they're, from an operational standpoint, basically free.

It's a matter of support.

For instance a lot of people ragged on SCEJ about not making their own games, but the thing is they were providing support to developers in Japan who needed help developing on PS3, and possibly also support for those who used PhyreEngine. I don't think Crytek has that kind of base in Japan. Not too sure about Epic.

 

[Contra11]

So this is why Capcom is co-deveoloping SF5 with Sony

 

[Nirolak]

So this is why Capcom is co-deveoloping SF5 with Sony

Well, judging by looking at it, I would guess that Street Fighter V is running on DIMPS engine from Street Fighter IV instead of Panta Rhei.

I could be wrong, but I'd be rather surprised if that wasn't the case.