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Is Dota 2 the most balanced competitive game?

All heroes being picked at least once is very different from all heroes being picked at roughly equivalent rates. And that's still very different from all heroes having similar win percentages.

Then take into account Dire/Radiant, first picks, and it can get very complicated really quickly in terms of telling at a glance whether all heroes are balanced. After all, many heroes will fall or rise in professional popularity without any actual balance changes occurring. Were certain heroes underpowered or just unpopular? It can be hard to tell if they're not picked enough to get reliable professional statistics.

I don't know if equivalent rates is the right goal.
I think the fact that so many heroes CAN be viable (even if situational) is impressive in its own right.

I don't want character choice not to matter because they are all the same. I want there to be no heroes that you can go "Why on earth would you pick that"
 
It's definitely the most balanced MOBA (the only genre I really play competitively). From my limited experience with the game, pretty much every hero serves a unique purpose.

And it's 100% more balanced than League. The meta there is a straight mess, and has been for most of this ranked season. I've actually been taking a bit of a break from playing lately. Everything's stagnated.

What I don't get is why Teemo was banned in competitive LoL

He's the freaking mascot

wut
 
How do they handle it in tournaments? Kind of like home field advantage in sports playoff games where the higher seed goes first?

I think they play both sides. That's the only real way to handle it, just like in other asymmetric competitive games (baseball).

Is Teemo really banned? Like, by Riot mandate or is there just a gentleman's agreement to never pick Teemo?
 
Game is too big to be balanced as good as other easier to balance game.
But Dota 2 competitive scene is objectively the biggest e-sport scene in the world.
 
Game is too big to be balanced as good as other easier to balance game.
But Dota 2 competitive scene is objectively the biggest e-sport scene in the world.

Are you sure? League of Legends has a much bigger player base overall. Maybe if you consider that pros in League of Legends are paid a salary, I don't believe Valve pays their Dota 2 players a salary so perhaps the barrier for entry into the respective pro scenes is different because of that.
 
I thought League of Legends was larger?

League uses forced meta with copy-paste champion designs.
Each Dota 2's hero is unique and irreplaceable by others.
About competitive scene, I'm 100% sure:
http://www.esportsearnings.com/players
Are you sure? League of Legends has a much bigger player base overall. Maybe if you consider that pros in League of Legends are paid a salary, I don't believe Valve pays their Dota 2 players a salary so perhaps the barrier for entry into the respective pro scenes is different because of that.

More players doesn't mean it has bigger competitive scene. It means that the game caters to more players.
 
the qualifiers always have a higher pick rate than lan finals. the meta is still in flux and will be more figured out when ti6 happens, plus a lot of lower tier teams are playing now.

that's just how dota is though. the games's balance is a collaborative process between the community and valve with no end.

Yeah. I mean, I'm sure every character will be played in SF5 at EVO, but if the Top 16 is nothing but Ryu, Ken, Nash, and Necalli, no one's going to consider that balanced.

It's also worth noting that Group Stages in tournaments can terribly distort that number, because by their nature they can result in games that flat-out don't make any difference for seeding, and it's a long-standing tradition to use those games for trollin'.
 
Someone thought League's pro scene was larger. You went off about copy paste champion designs for reasons unknown. You're just antagonizing. If you really want to get into it, League had 14 million concurrent viewers during the finals last year, Dota 2 had 4 million. League is bigger. Doesn't make it better, but it is bigger.

And this is coming from a League player who finds the LCS incredibly dull.
 
Important to note that drafting phase is also often tailored based on who your opponent is. You're drafting against them, not against the game.

Trends can and do arise - even if the game was 100% balanced, teams in regions that tend to play against each other a lot develop favorites that then get consta-banned, and so on and so forth.
 
That's because gold bounties and long respawn timers equalize games if you manage to kill the opposing team's big heroes. Once you get to the late game enemy fortifications melt under any real pressure so it's much more about forcing buy backs so they'll be out of position or force when you strike.

I don't think of a game as complex as Dota 2 as being balanced though: the meta constantly evolved and has to be tweaked. Even with very simple board games with unchanging rules the metagame evolves, so I don't think there's any objective frame of reference for what perfect balance would be.

That said, Dota benefits from more than a decade of balance adjustments, so it rarely swings heavily especially in regards to pro play at this point, compared to less established metagames.

The bigger thing that makes dota better at this than league is the way itemization works in the game.

In league items get more efficient as they get more expensive in terms of stat per gold.

In Dota, items get less efficient. The most efficient stat per gold item in the game is the ironwood branch. in Dota you spend more to have your items take up fewer item slots, not to get more stats. Also stats in general in dota are of less value because of the power of the abilities. One of the best items in the game gives no stats, and many more of the items are desirable more for their active abilities than their stats.

This seems like a clear design mistake to me, and it makes league games largely either completely one-sided stomps or super conservative low risk games decided by a single teamfight after the teams get so strong they can kill an entire lane and the whole base in a single death timer(which is another issue dota has addressed, with buybacks, which admittedly seems kludgey, but if it makes the games better, who cares?).

As for the OP's question, it always depends on what you mean by balanced. If you consider ideal balance to be the largest possible number of viable combinations, I think Dota is pretty damned balanced. I certainly have never played a game that had as many options that all felt viable where it still felt that my decisions mattered.

Obviously a 100% symmetrical game(in real time, turn based games have innate imbalance even if symmetrical) is more balanced than an asymmetrical game, but it also has fewer strategic decisions to be make. Dota has what some would argue is a complete overabundance of choices, and yet almost anything can work.

What are your quantifiable metrics for that? Prize pools aren't everything.

Dota just had open qualifiers for the international, with a thousand or so teams from each region trying to get an invite. In league if you aren't an LCS team or LCK or whatever, good luck ever becoming one. In Dota anyone can form a team and compete on an even playing field with the best teams in the world.

The dota 2 competitive scene is larger and more healthy just because it is so much more inclusive.
 
Someone thought League's pro scene was larger. You went off about copy paste champion designs for reasons unknown. You're just antagonizing. If you really want to get into it, League had 14 million concurrent viewers during the finals last year, Dota 2 had 4 million. League is bigger. Doesn't make it better, but it is bigger.

And this is coming from a League player who finds the LCS incredibly dull.

I was talking about Dota being big and hard to balance and it has the biggest e-sport scene. When someone said LoL is bigger I had no idea which part he was talking about.
Viewership could also be a metric for measure as well as the price pool, however Dota 2 does not only offer streams but also in-game spectation.
It might not add up to LoL's number tho, however this year Valve seems to push a lot into competitive scene with Major leagues which also had a lot of viewers count. LoL also doesn't seem to have viewer tracking site which make it hard to track the numbers.
 
Archie, this is one of the few times I wonder if you are actually serious.

I think it is the most balanced. While the current patch has a large amount of variety, it's the best fact that the game is audited when balance patches every few months, and minor patches at needed to address any major balance issues.

I'm surprised at the success, doesn't it have quite a bit of RNG?

It does, however here the RNG is actually fair. Most RNG in the game is Pseudo Random Distribution (PRD). Say you have a 15% chance to get a bash. The first hit, you actually have lower than 15% chance of bash, but then each hit, that chance goes up and over 15% until you get one. If it as truly random, you could run into long instances of getting no bashes, or always getting first hit bash.


No OD or Visage picks? What the hell did they do to the meta?
OD was relevant and bullsbit in some recent patches. He can stay dead, fine with me.

I do miss Visage though.
 
http://www.dotabuff.com/esports/leagues/4664/heroes

The International qualifiers are ongoing and 101/110 heroes were picked. Does any other game have a ~91% pick rate for their characters?

100% character selection rate for the top 50 players at Final Round 19 (SFV, 1000 player tournament).

http://www.eventhubs.com/news/2016/...udo-bonchan-justin-wong-kbr-haitani-and-more/

Tournament selection presence isn't a good way to identify balance. Selection rate and average placement per character would be much better. People always find ways to fit certain characters into certain teams, running odd counter picks or strategies, but that doesn't mean that character is as good as others that are picked more commonly, without more global utility. A character that is picked once isn't equal to a character that is picked 100 times, yet the "pick rate" statistic you presented treats them as such... it's rather meaningless.

Within a team game it doesn't even mean that those low-usage characters are even viable. You'd need to run some stats to see which characters were most predictive of a successful outcome, then we might have something more interesting. For all we know, those low-picked characters might have been the weak links on those teams, and the reason they were beaten by better performing teams, using better characters.
 
Dota 2's pick/ban phase goes a long way towards pick diversity. League saw a good % of its roster used at worlds, but when you can ban out five champs it's going to force more stuff to come out. 101 heroes being picked is still not all that inspiring when about two dozen still dominate the majority of the meta.
 
Nope.

High pick rate means nothing when most were picked once or twice and lost.

Of the bottom 10 most picked heroes on that list(the ones that have only been picked once), there is a combined 80% win rate.

The thing about Dota is that the highly contested picks in the pro scene aren't contested entirely because they are super strong, but rather because they are versatile. With the way the CM draft phases work, you want to pick versatile heroes early on so you have room to adjust to what your opponent is doing. Many times several of the top 10 picked heroes will have ~40% winrates.
 
Nope.

High pick rate means nothing when most were picked once or twice and lost.

Right now there are only 8 heroes with 0% winrate out of 103 picks in Ti6. And Ti6 just started 2 days ago.
There were also only 7 heroes with 0% winrate out of 101 pick in the last big Dota 2 tournament.
 
The bigger thing that makes dota better at this than league is the way itemization works in the game.

In league items get more efficient as they get more expensive in terms of stat per gold.

I'm not sure why you think this is the case.

Most completed (final) items in League of Legends are below 100% gold efficient when compared to the base items used in their recipe. The exceptions are, broadly: items that despite being "complete" are relatively cheap (boots, Doran's items, etc.), items that have some secondary requirement for becoming gold-efficient (stacking items or items that require a condition to trigger their passive benefits, like Guinsoo's), and items that have hybrid itemization (this seems to be a concession made for the fact that hybrid itemization is almost always worse than focused itemization).

There are a few items that break the 100% plane without meeting those standards, but they seem to be mostly items that are historically under-bought by players or where the exact "value" of certain passive or active abilities on the item is extremely situational.

The most efficient way to rumble someone short-term in League is still to just go and buy a 6 Longswords (ask any Jarvan player), you just don't do it because then you're stuck trying to find something to do with 6 Longswords in mid-game (unless you're a Jarvan player).

Dota just had open qualifiers for the international, with a thousand or so teams from each region trying to get an invite. In league if you aren't an LCS team or LCK or whatever, good luck ever becoming one. In Dota anyone can form a team and compete on an even playing field with the best teams in the world.

The dota 2 competitive scene is larger and more healthy just because it is so much more inclusive.

There are pretty clear paths to becoming an LCS/LCK team. There is regular (basically, seasonal) turnover at the available slots. I can think of very few legitimately good teams from before the League system was implemented (back when LoL was on the IEM/MLG circuit like most games were) that failed to secure a spot. There doesn't seem to be any problem with extremely promising college players or even solo queue heroes finding an opportunity to play professionally in North America, Korea, or Europe.

The International Wild Card is a mess, but it's going to stay a mess until Brazil starts winning DOTA2 Majors or otherwise convinces the rest of the world that there's a legitimate reason to pay closer attention to teams outside of the major markets.
 
Posting a topic like this in the main gaming forum is probably a bad idea, promotes stupid drive-by posts, usually by people who don't play the game and/or hate MOBAs for whatever reason and feel the need to let everyone know.

On topic though, there's really no simple yes or no answer, but it's super impressive how many heroes have been picked in Manila & now the qualifying round of TI6. Not to mention that a bunch of the unpicked heroes like Veno, Visage, OD, Centaur & Legion are absolutely viable, but usually there's a hero who plays a similar role who just plays it better. Techies, Pudge & Sniper would be super niche picks. Out of all the unpicked heroes I really think only Sniper would be pretty much useless thanks to all the gap closing heroes that are so frequent currently -- someone like Earth Spirit will just destroy him. That said, a lot of the picked heroes that are uncommon have most likely only been picked 1-2 times, but there will really never be a time when 90% of heroes are regular picks. But that's the beauty of Dota balance, quite a few heroes fill certain niche roles and are perfect picks with or against the right lineup. That's not necessarily a bad thing.
 
lmao yeah maybe in 2006 you ought to read up on some of the new strats
denouement2005web.jpg

gently destory your opponent
 
I really like where the game is at the moment, but I can't wait to see the first original hero they might come up with since the original mod. IF they do that is.
 
In terms of best balance? Possibly. Hard to compare a MOBA to all the other competitive genres of gaming. RTS? FPS? Tabletop?

It's the best balanced MOBA, sure.

Taken another way, in terms of total volume of balance attempts, League of Legends probably holds that crown. They release a balance patch every 2 fucking weeks. So one could say that League is the most balanced (# of attempts to balance) game. lol

Of all games I'm pretty sure Chess and Go take top honors. You move 100% of your pieces in chess :3
 
I'm not sure why you think this is the case.

Most completed (final) items in League of Legends are below 100% gold efficient when compared to the base items used in their recipe. The exceptions are, broadly: items that despite being "complete" are relatively cheap (boots, Doran's items, etc.), items that have some secondary requirement for becoming gold-efficient (stacking items or items that require a condition to trigger their passive benefits, like Guinsoo's), and items that have hybrid itemization (this seems to be a concession made for the fact that hybrid itemization is almost always worse than focused itemization).

There are a few items that break the 100% plane without meeting those standards, but they seem to be mostly items that are historically under-bought by players or where the exact "value" of certain passive or active abilities on the item is extremely situational.

The most efficient way to rumble someone short-term in League is still to just go and buy a 6 Longswords (ask any Jarvan player), you just don't do it because then you're stuck trying to find something to do with 6 Longswords in mid-game (unless you're a Jarvan player).



There are pretty clear paths to becoming an LCS/LCK team.
There is regular (basically, seasonal) turnover at the available slots. I can think of very few legitimately good teams from before the League system was implemented (back when LoL was on the IEM/MLG circuit like most games were) that failed to secure a spot. There doesn't seem to be any problem with extremely promising college players or even solo queue heroes finding an opportunity to play professionally in North America, Korea, or Europe.

The International Wild Card is a mess, but it's going to stay a mess until Brazil starts winning DOTA2 Majors or otherwise convinces the rest of the world that there's a legitimate reason to pay closer attention to teams outside of the major markets.

'Most' is a problem, though I wasn't talking about finished items with recipe, I was talking larger basic items, like BF sword vs longsword.. But the bigger problem is that most come relatively close. In dota, larger components cost exponentially more per point of stat. It's not even close. An ultimate orb gives +1 to stats for every 210 gold. The ironwood branch gives the same for 50 gold. No league item comes close to under 25% gold efficiency.

Meanwhile in league, a BF sword gives +1 AD for 32.5 gold, and a long sword gives +1 AD for ever 35 gold. The more expensive item is more efficient.

As for the competitive scene, The challenger system is a complete mess, and lower level teams have no access to events with a decent prizepool, so they have no way to build up their resources to be competitive on the higher level if by some miracle they ever make it there.

Though even the LCS teams are so hamstrung by riot's tournament restrictions that it is hard to get the playtime needed to actually improve to be competitive with the Koreans.
I don't doubt there are few teams good enough to compete that are left out, what I'm saying is that without a chance to play the best teams, it's impossible to get to that point. And with the way Riot has segregated their leagues, that is something that rarely happens.
 
I think CS:GO is probably the most balanced but if we're applying the "how much of the game is actually competitively viable", well, I don't know what gun usage statistics are like at all!

¯\_(ツ)_/¯
 
I think you practically have to give this to a game like Quake 3 by default where there is no character selection and every weapon serves a distinct purpose so that having them is always better than not having them. The balance is perfect in CTF (since the maps are symmetrical) and pretty damn close in other formats, where the only factor is initial spawns. Even there, spawns on duel maps are deliberately chosen to not give either player an advantage in items; because they're not identical they're technically not perfect, but they're so close and have so little impact on the rest of the game that it doesn't matter.

Is it a fair comparison? Not really. Games with different characters and tradeoffs from the outset cannot be as balanced as a game that lacks these elements, and the more different these characters are the larger the imbalance can be.

If we're just looking at games that have character selection, I think the question is rather difficult to answer. There are many dimensions to this: Is balance simply the percentage of the cast that is used, or the percentage of the cast that is used well? Personally, I wonder if the size of the cast even matters at all: I would argue that something like Marvel 2 is fairly balanced because within the subset of characters that are viable you have many choices. Yes, most of the characters are useless, but it's not at all difficult to imagine that they don't exist.
 
As for the competitive scene, The challenger system is a complete mess, and lower level teams have no access to events with a decent prizepool, so they have no way to build up their resources to be competitive on the higher level if by some miracle they ever make it there.

There's no miracles involved. There's constantly top-tier Korean talent that everyone's waiting to become of-age (17, by Korean law) to actually join a League. That wouldn't be the case if there were such significant problems for players with talent to get a go.

Likewise, the star players in College LoL are pursued heavily enough that there's a larger legitimate concern of it influencing their education in the same way professional sports recruitment does, rather than some phantom issue where there's no way for them to progress into professional play.

This is like saying there's no path for players to join the NFL, and everyone should instead embrace professional boxing's method of cultivating talent.

Though even the LCS teams are so hamstrung by riot's tournament restrictions that it is hard to get the playtime needed to actually improve to be competitive with the Koreans.

LCS teams routinely bootcamp in Korea and even scrimmage with Korean teams. The reason the Korean teams are absurdly dominant is because six nights a week in Korea the best League of Legends players in the country are broadcast on national television with stage shows and music video intros that make them look like rock stars.

I don't doubt there are few teams good enough to compete that are left out, what I'm saying is that without a chance to play the best teams, it's impossible to get to that point. And with the way Riot has segregated their leagues, that is something that rarely happens.

A chance to play against the best teams in the world a few times a year is literally meaningless. There isn't some South African team that's going to roar onto the scene in a year and win The International because they got 8 maps worth of experience playing against NaVi at a smattering of random Majors.

There are still a half-dozen League of Legends cross-regional events per year (Worlds, MSI, IEM, etc.). The difference is there are professional level League of Legends happening every day of every week.

The American and European teams got stomped by Korean teams worse than they do now before the advent of the LCS, it just happened less frequently because the Korean teams often would snub MLG/IEM events in favor of their own OGN/KeSPa events. The League system has elevated the level of play in North America and Europe by entire orders of magnitude, not decreased it, it's just really, really hard to compete with a nation where being an OGN Champion makes you a national icon rather than getting you a lecture from your disappointed dad.
 
The League system has elevated the level of play in North America and Europe by entire orders of magnitude, not decreased it,

As aparrent by their success at the World Championship. *Checks* Oh wait no they get dumpstered. Compare that to DotA where teams from every major region have placed in the Top 3 in The International over an almost identical stretch. European and Chinese teams tend to be a bit more effective, but a US team did win TI5 (and EG with zai+Uni look pretty good), and now US players are joining EU organizations and even SEA organizations and finding success (Team Secret is 3/5 NA, and DemoN lead TNC through the OQ and RQ to qualify for their first International).

it's just really, really hard to compete with a nation where being an OGN Champion makes you a national icon rather than getting you a lecture from your disappointed dad.

Not a problem for DotA, Counter-Strike, Halo, or various other games--Korea has only dominated in SC and LoL. The only competitive DotA 2 Korean team is MVP who can hang with the best of them, but still regularly gets knocked out by mediocre teams.
 
The only competitive DotA 2 Korean team is MVP who can hang with the best of them, but still regularly gets knocked out by mediocre teams.

But really, at the current state of the scene, the top 8 teams in the world can take games from one another, and in fact they do regularly. (well except for OG who are untouchable and the future TI6 winners #dreamgreen)

Back on topic: pick variety might not make Dota 2 the most balanced game, but, I would argue it makes it maybe the most interesting to watch.
 
Not a problem for DotA, Counter-Strike, Halo, or various other games--Korea has only dominated in SC and LoL. The only competitive DotA 2 Korean team is MVP who can hang with the best of them, but still regularly gets knocked out by mediocre teams.

"Korea doesn't dominate games that aren't popular in, and that you can't get famous by playing, in Korea."

Shocking news. I trust this is going in a doctoral thesis and not wasted here.
 
I think CS:GO is probably the most balanced but if we're applying the "how much of the game is actually competitively viable", well, I don't know what gun usage statistics are like at all!

¯\_(ツ)_/¯

Well the most balanced would be any game where all starting attributes were equal.

With that in mind something like Rocket League or Halo 3 would be the most balanced game.

People seem to like unbalanced games though, to a degree. None of the most popular e-sports feature the 'most balanced games'. If anything, games like DoTa, and Street Fighter are the least balanced, but they use the asynchronous nature of their fights to expand their games depth and strategy. Which I think for spectators and players, is more appealing than balance alone.
 
Dota 2's pick/ban phase goes a long way towards pick diversity. League saw a good % of its roster used at worlds, but when you can ban out five champs it's going to force more stuff to come out. 101 heroes being picked is still not all that inspiring when about two dozen still dominate the majority of the meta.

It's not that simple IMO. A big part of the variety found in Dota 2 is secondary to niche picks working in very specific team strategies (and anti-strategies) to make for truly strong and interesting matchups. Certain heroes will only be picked to compliment those strats or to counter an emerging enemy strat. Push lineups, deathball lineups, tank lineups, burst lineups, double junglers, 2-1-2 lanes, tri-lanes, all-melee lineups, all-ranged lineups, etc. Strenghts and weaknesses of heroes are more important.

League barely has composition-dictated strategies of the sort mentioned above. You may counter an enemy pick with something that is stronger than it early or later, but whole team strats aren't a thing very often. So for the foreseeable future (until Riot finishes remaking all their Champs to offer something truly unique), some champions will simply be better at their specific job than others. League has a couple of wombo combos to pick from, but it's a very half-hearted experience in comparison. Couple with the rigidity of the current champion roles (ADC position Irela or Yasuo will never be a thing in LoL where it would very much be an option in Dota2) to further limit the selection pools. There' s a reason why across all the Spring Splits, the highest champion pool percentage was something like 60%. Some things simply end up being "better than" other things. Even if League had 10 bans, we'd see the same sorts of basic strategic experiences. We may see more Ashe and Miss Fortune, but it's still another set of ranged characters buying roughly the same items and doing the same thing they would have been doing with Cait and Lucian. The champs at the bottom still wouldn't get picked. We'd just see more of the "A tier" champs getting play.

There are times when picking Huskar or Shadow Shaman or Leigon Commander in Dota2 make sense even at the very highest levels of play with millions of dollars on the line...even though they aren't strong individually. There is no time when picking Urgot, Mord, or Teemo with money on the line would ever happen unless Riot buffs them to IMBA status randomly or we see fundamental changes to the core mechanics of the game.

RT:



korea is coming yall
anuxi_beaver.gif

and they will be going soon after.
 
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